Energy - Use + Types + Conservation

ITD · 10-03-2022, 02:39 PM

If you really want to squeeze the most out of your energy buck, buy an electric car. My buddy has a Nissan leaf, that he bought used, he plugs it into a 110V socket, and does almost all his driving in it. It's a little bit older leaf, so he got it relatively cheap (under $20k) he has had it about 3 years, maybe more. He's comfortable with up to a 100 mile range before he starts worrying about range. Best of all it's something like less than a third of what a similar car would cost in gas. He has spent zero in maintenance on it so far. I was not pro- electric car until I sat down and began to understand how much further they can move you on less energy.

My next car is probably going to be a Tesla model Y. I have a Grand Cherokee right now that gets about 21 all around gas mileage. I knew that going in, but it still irks me when fill ups have been in the $80 to $100 range depending on how empty I let it get and where I buy the gas.

ApS · 10-05-2022, 06:01 AM

If you are heating with a wood stove, close the doors to rooms which are not being used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITD

If you really want to squeeze the most out of your energy buck, buy an electric car. My buddy has a Nissan leaf, that he bought used, he plugs it into a 110V socket, and does almost all his driving in it. It's a little bit older leaf, so he got it relatively cheap (under $20k) he has had it about 3 years, maybe more. He's comfortable with up to a 100 mile range before he starts worrying about range. Best of all it's something like less than a third of what a similar car would cost in gas. He has spent zero in maintenance on it so far. I was not pro- electric car until I sat down and began to understand how much further they can move you on less energy.

My next car is probably going to be a Tesla model Y. I have a Grand Cherokee right now that gets about 21 all around gas mileage. I knew that going in, but it still irks me when fill ups have been in the $80 to $100 range depending on how empty I let it get and where I buy the gas.

But you would not be moved by "less energy".

Mountains of earth are moved to find the minerals necessary to build EVs. The mining, mostly in third-world countries, is accomplished with fossil fuels. Assembly in Asia is managed with fossil fuels or electricity powered by coal (a fossil-fuel) shipped from Australia.

New coal-powered generating plants are being built there at a rate greater than one per month.

Asia has more than six times the number of coal-fired electric generating plants than the USA. (Necessary to build solar panels and EV batteries).

Let's not discuss where millions of EV batteries--depleted of energy--are to be disposed of.

Oops... Am I suffering from " wrong-think"?

FlyingScot · 10-05-2022, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApS

If you are heating with a wood stove, close the doors to rooms which are not being used.

But you would not be moved by "less energy".

Mountains of earth are moved to find the minerals necessary to build EVs. The mining, mostly in third-world countries, is accomplished with fossil fuels. Assembly in Asia is managed with fossil fuels or electricity powered by coal (a fossil-fuel) shipped from Australia.

New coal-powered generating plants are being built there at a rate greater than one per month.

Asia has more than six times the number of coal-fired electric generating plants than the USA. (Necessary to build solar panels and EV batteries).

Let's not discuss where millions of EV batteries--depleted of energy--are to be disposed of.

Oops... Am I suffering from " wrong-think"?

These are interesting anecdotal points, not sure whether they are true or false. But I am sure that every professional objective analysis shows EVs to be WAY more environmentally friendly that gas cars.

John Mercier · 10-05-2022, 07:20 AM

We are moving to Lithium Iron Phosphate.

But the financial cost of the battery is part of the cost of the vehicle.
So when the numbers are run... it is possible that if someone drives enough to see savings in the EV.

ITD · 10-05-2022, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApS

Oops... Am I suffering from " wrong-think"?

I think you are, there is a lot EV hate out there. The batteries are being improved so they are almost fully recyclable.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-100-...cycling-model/

I would also like to see the same analysis as far as earth to product done on gas cars, I'm pretty sure the impacts would be close to the same.

Power production will always be a point of contention. But pound for pound, btu for btu, kw for kw. An internal combustion engine can not come close to the efficiency of an EV. That is pretty much a given now, and will be in the future IMO.

Fossil fuels are in our future for probably at least another 50 years for electricity generation. Solar and wind are just not viable alternatives now, in the near future and possibly beyond then. That leaves nuclear, which would be great but has grass roots opposition. Hydro, which unfortunately would be impossible to scale to the degree necessary to replace fossil. There just isn't any alternatives available presently to justify the wholesale shutdown of fossil.

I think solar and wind my have a chance if our ability to store generated power takes a quantum leap in the next few years. But I'm not holding my breath, and your head would explode if you did an analysis of raw materials to get there versus the materials required for a similar output coal plant.

We need to act intelligently as we try to ween off of fossil fuels. The ignorance being shown now is going to kill people.

I've decided that an EV works for let's say 98% of my driving. For the other 2 % it's less convenient or would require me to rent an appropriate vehicle. When my present car runs out, I'm making the leap.

LikeLakes · 10-05-2022, 11:58 AM

There's no question that there is a significant environmental impact, and challenge, in the ramp up of EV vehicles. We only have one lithium mine in the US, in Nevada. The mining uses a huge amount of water and has a really significant environmental impact. All energy sources are a trade off of environmental impact vs. good, and the under-publicized part of the EV vehicle trend is the lithium ion batteries, where the lithium comes from, how quickly mining and battery production can be ramped up. I'm less concerned with battery disposal, they are quickly finding ways to make them more recyclable.

From my reading I find that most calculations lead to showing a 1/3 advantage with EV cars when evaluating cradle to grave of EV vs. IC. Some claim a 2/3 advantage but from what I've seen that is simply evaluating miles/gallon fuel use and not the complete picture. To me, 1/3 is a huge factor, there are not a lot of technologies that improve on older tech by 33%.

I don't think the push toward EV is a sham, or smoke and mirrors, or anything like that. The environmental gains are real. As mentioned in prior posts we have to have eyes open to where the electricity is coming from, where the batteries and lithium are coming from, but I'm convinced of the overall advantage.

brk-lnt · 10-05-2022, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApS

Oops... Am I suffering from " wrong-think"?

Probably, because you are posting an incomplete analysis.

What about the fact that Tesla is one of the top selling electric vehicles, and the fact that Tesla does not use the traditional dealer network model. How much energy went into building and maintaining all those buildings for brands selling ICE vehicles? How much energy goes into building and maintaining the networks of gas stations, oil change places, emissions-checking equipment, etc. for ICE vehicles?

We really don't have adequate data to analyze the end to end supply chain, sales facilities, service facilities, and end-of-life vehicle disposal factors in a rational fashion. If you want to expand the argument to the full and total impact of EV vs. ICE, then at least put some better effort into it.

10-03-2022, 02:39 PM	#1
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,942 Thanks: 483 Thanked 700 Times in 391 Posts	If you really want to squeeze the most out of your energy buck, buy an electric car. My buddy has a Nissan leaf, that he bought used, he plugs it into a 110V socket, and does almost all his driving in it. It's a little bit older leaf, so he got it relatively cheap (under $20k) he has had it about 3 years, maybe more. He's comfortable with up to a 100 mile range before he starts worrying about range. Best of all it's something like less than a third of what a similar car would cost in gas. He has spent zero in maintenance on it so far. I was not pro- electric car until I sat down and began to understand how much further they can move you on less energy. My next car is probably going to be a Tesla model Y. I have a Grand Cherokee right now that gets about 21 all around gas mileage. I knew that going in, but it still irks me when fill ups have been in the $80 to $100 range depending on how empty I let it get and where I buy the gas.

The Following User Says Thank You to ITD For This Useful Post:
Biggd (10-04-2022)

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DEJ (10-05-2022), ishoot308 (10-05-2022), SAMIAM (10-05-2022)

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10-05-2022, 07:20 AM	#4
John Mercier Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 3,578 Thanks: 3 Thanked 637 Times in 524 Posts	We are moving to Lithium Iron Phosphate. But the financial cost of the battery is part of the cost of the vehicle. So when the numbers are run... it is possible that if someone drives enough to see savings in the EV.

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ITD For This Useful Post:
Biggd (10-05-2022), LikeLakes (10-05-2022)

10-05-2022, 11:58 AM	#6
LikeLakes Senior Member Join Date: May 2021 Posts: 339 Thanks: 50 Thanked 92 Times in 66 Posts	There's no question that there is a significant environmental impact, and challenge, in the ramp up of EV vehicles. We only have one lithium mine in the US, in Nevada. The mining uses a huge amount of water and has a really significant environmental impact. All energy sources are a trade off of environmental impact vs. good, and the under-publicized part of the EV vehicle trend is the lithium ion batteries, where the lithium comes from, how quickly mining and battery production can be ramped up. I'm less concerned with battery disposal, they are quickly finding ways to make them more recyclable. From my reading I find that most calculations lead to showing a 1/3 advantage with EV cars when evaluating cradle to grave of EV vs. IC. Some claim a 2/3 advantage but from what I've seen that is simply evaluating miles/gallon fuel use and not the complete picture. To me, 1/3 is a huge factor, there are not a lot of technologies that improve on older tech by 33%. I don't think the push toward EV is a sham, or smoke and mirrors, or anything like that. The environmental gains are real. As mentioned in prior posts we have to have eyes open to where the electricity is coming from, where the batteries and lithium are coming from, but I'm convinced of the overall advantage.