Laconia State School

[SAMIAM]

Next Wednesday the city council will reveal the plan for redevelopment of the State School. Any guesses?
Community college, hotel complex, affordable housing, another rehab facility or maybe a huge homeless shelter?

[8gv]

Theatre?

[John Mercier]

Probably mixed use housing with an open air market toward the front to compliment the community garden site across the road.

A new set of traffic lights, and some non-motorized trail to attach to the WOW.

[baygo]

I hope to attend. I had reached out to the listing agency to place a bid. They told me that they were not ready for bids yet and would get back to me when ready. The next thing I know, biding was closed. I will be a bit suspicious if they keep the sale price secret.

[WinnisquamZ]

Is the sale completed? I believe it isn’t. This meeting is closed to the public and just a information gathering for city. As noted before, the city has little say in who buys the property, the true test of what the city wants will be when permits are pulled and zoning regulations adjusted


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[baygo]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Is the sale completed? I believe it isn’t. This meeting is closed to the public and just a information gathering for city. As noted before, the city has little say in who buys the property, the true test of what the city wants will be when permits are pulled and zoning regulations adjusted


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I read something earlier in the week indicating it was open to the public. Now I read that you are correct it is not open to the public

[WinnisquamZ]

Yes. With a capacity of 60 at city hall. The state refused a move to the middle school to increase the public capacity. Get in your seat early!


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[John Mercier]

Paper had it open to the public...
But just a presentation, not a public question or comment session.

I suspect that the LDS will have an article the next day...
So we should know by then what is being proposed by the committee that was seated by the State to advise on the issue.

[Descant]

How is this "research" or "study" committee able to meet in secret? I understand the Council can meet in non-public session to negotiate, but where do study committees come under RSA 91-A, Right to Know? Are thewre no published agendas or minutes for the study committee?

[John Mercier]

The Advisory Committee was in the paper.
But here is the official listing...

https://www.nh.gov/council/meetings/...ate-school.htm

[Descant]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The Advisory Committee was in the paper.
But here is the official listing...

https://www.nh.gov/council/meetings/...ate-school.htm

Thank you. That's all in 2016, and I didn't see any report or final recommendations. What am I missing? Why is this coming up now, 6 years later?

[WinnisquamZ]

The work of the commission you are asking about played little to no role in the state governments decision on selling the property and to whom it will be sold to. A waste of time and resources in my opinion


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[WinnisquamZ]

One thing I would like to note is the city had the opportunity to purchase the property for small dollars a few decades ago and declined.


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[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Descant

Thank you. That's all in 2016, and I didn't see any report or final recommendations. What am I missing? Why is this coming up now, 6 years later?

This is the public presentation of the final recommendation that will go to the Executive Committee.

Laconia will be the site of the presentation, then a written comment period from the public, and finally a vote by the EC on whether to approve the sales contract with the conditions laid out.

[WinnisquamZ]

Anyone get to attend tonight’s state school property review?


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[John Mercier]

There is an article in the LDS.

[joey2665]

Here’s the link:

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...140d9d9ec.html


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[8gv]

That's quite an ambitious plan.

Elm St will likely become quite busy.

Is there enough capacity in the electric grid, water and sewer?

[WinnisquamZ]

Thanks. Just read it, it’s all pie in the sky stuff. 1300 housing units. Are you going to place a small town in ward 1. No mention of the new schools that would be required to support such housing or the police and fire services. Won’t get into the environmental impact from the runoff into both lakes. It will be interesting how this plays out


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[Woodsy]

The plan seems awfully ambitious.... No doubt there will be changes! Buy it for a song filled with with promises and big dreams, then claim economic realities when you choose to change the plan and not fulfill the promises!

The City sorely needs the workforce housing. However I seriously doubt the price range for the homes in this development will be affordable.

Woodsy

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by 8gv

That's quite an ambitious plan.

Elm St will likely become quite busy.

Is there enough capacity in the electric grid, water and sewer?

There was in the electric grid, but since everything is being upgraded???
Water and sewer the City needs to expand in the area to Turner Way; so it would be available.

[TiltonBB]

The state has failed for years to sell the property because its expansive lake views couldn’t overcome the site’s significant development hurdles, which include nearly 30 dilapidated buildings. The new potential developer seems a little light on experience.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...b31279052.html

[John Mercier]

The "view" is of Lake Opechee toward the Belknaps.
It is across Rte 106... so that part of the property is more prone to commercial development.

The lower cost housing would have less, if any, lake view.
The problem with the property is actually political... less so financial.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The "view" is of Lake Opechee toward the Belknaps.
It is across Rte 106... so that part of the property is more prone to commercial development.

The lower cost housing would have less, if any, lake view.
The problem with the property is actually political... less so financial.

I believe that the property actually goes all the way back to Lake Winnisquam water front.


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[TiltonBB]

“There is some concern about the buyer's experience and ability to take on a project of this size,”

An article published in the New Hampshire Bulletin Tuesday outlines the past developments of the proposed buyer. The article highlights that none of the developments are of comparable size to what Alexander has proposed for the State School property and that her largest development project to date, in Manchester, is three years behind schedule and has sparked litigation

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...0a2767596.html

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I believe that the property actually goes all the way back to Lake Winnisquam water front.

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The Winnisquam waterfront is part of the state park acreage.
As many of you have read in my past posting I am against any major development on the site. One concerns I have is the environmental impact it will have to both lakes. Runoff from such a large hilltop development (over 100 acres published) must go somewhere. The local environmentalists have been very quiet. I am hopeful they will voice their opinions as more details are revealed.
Until then I hope to find a unusual bug or fern that must be protected on or near the property!


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[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

One thing I would like to note is the city had the opportunity to purchase the property for small dollars a few decades ago and declined.

Declined ???
What IDIOTS running Laconia.

What a beautiful town park this would make.

And of course. A state park.

IDIOTS !!!

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

Declined ???
What IDIOTS running Laconia.

What a beautiful town park this would make.

And of course. A state park.

IDIOTS !!!

I believe it was the same individuals that agreed to build the now decaying parking garage downtown. And a few of these individuals are still in power!


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[John Mercier]

The parking garage has only a couple options.
Continued maintenance at about $30K per year...
Or a large multi-million dollar bond payable over decades to remove the structure.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

Declined ???
What IDIOTS running Laconia.

What a beautiful town park this would make.

And of course. A state park.

IDIOTS !!!

The State had the option of taking it all as a park... it didn't.
Probably because under SB5 it was determined that there was no way for the park system to finance maintenance... even a problem with Ahern.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The parking garage has only a couple options.
Continued maintenance at about $30K per year...
Or a large multi-million dollar bond payable over decades to remove the structure.

Thankfully, the parking garage boondoggle is stalled as the parking study showed no real need for it. The City is going to revisit the issue.

The parking structure does not have to be removed... sell it to the other owners for a $1 and let them rehab the building. Apartments, Condos, office space...

Woodsy

[John Mercier]

Then take out a $1 and buy it.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Then take out a $1 and buy it.

Sure thing!

Woodsy

[Mr. V]

One question about the proposed development, which would add up to 1900 new housing units: what would attract the buyers to come to Laconia?

Certainly not the prospect of a good-paying job: there is little or no industry or other opportunities, unlike days gone by.

Lots of new residents buy lakefront as a second or third home, but the proposal is for mixed use, meaning mostly non-high end homes.

These new folks will need to work somewhere: where will that be?

*I may be out of touch having not visited for several years, but it seemed to me that Laconia was then in decline*

[WinnisquamZ]

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...b7ded6442.html
Appears Kennedy got exposed a bit here


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[John Mercier]

Since no one else wants to deal with it...

[bruinsfan]

Per Union Leader:

CONCORD — The state Executive Council tabled Wednesday the proposed $21.5 million purchase of the former Laconia State School property after questions arose over the Manchester buyer’s limited commercial development experience.

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by bruinsfan

Per Union Leader:

CONCORD — The state Executive Council tabled Wednesday the proposed $21.5 million purchase of the former Laconia State School property after questions arose over the Manchester buyer’s limited commercial development experience.

One thing that must be noted is Sununu anger towards the city of Laconia for identifying the developers lack of experience and legal issues. I find this disturbing.


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[Descant]

The NH Department of Administrative Services has presumably negotiated the P & S and has done some due diligence before making a recommendation to the EC. Any word on that part of the process?

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

One thing that must be noted is Sununu anger towards the city of Laconia for identifying the developers lack of experience and legal issues. I find this disturbing.


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Lessons learned from the past.

[TiltonBB]

Hosmer and City Manager Kirk Beattie have maintained that no city officials had access to the information necessary to vet Alexander.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...82b01f81d.html

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

Hosmer and City Manager Kirk Beattie have maintained that no city officials had access to the information necessary to vet Alexander.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...82b01f81d.html

Assuming they are correct not sure it would have made a difference. The sale is controlled by the state. Hosmer and Beattie should be directing their displeasure to Kennedy. The area representative on the executive council. He came out again tonight in support of the sale. Voting against the city’s wishes


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[John Mercier]

I don't think there are any other real options on the table based on what the City keeps demanding.

The State should be looking out for all residents of the State... not just the city, like the city council is supposed to, and the EC would be looking out for a broad area of constituents.

She is being backed by some big names that don't want to be in the spotlight due to other run-ins with a City Council that has a constituency that is rather chaotic.

[TiltonBB]

On Wednesday, a 3-2 Executive Council vote approved a purchase and sale agreement with Legacy at Laconia, LLC.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...830f48889.html

[codeman671]

“On a 3-2 vote, the Executive Council on Wednesday approved the $21.5 million sale of the former Laconia State School property to private developers despite financial questions about some of the project’s key members. The development will include 340 single-family, duplex or triplex homes, half of which will be priced as “entry-level,” 108 condominiums, 500 apartments — 120 designated as “workforce housing” — and 350 townhouses. The site also will have 360 units of independent living units for seniors, along with 230 assisted-care units, which McCoy will spearhead, according to a spokesman for the developers. Along with housing, the project includes a 1,000-seat convention center and a 250-room hotel, as well as urgent care, child care and pharmacy facilities on site. Half of the property will remain undeveloped and taxed under the state’s current-use law, which values property in its natural state rather than at its potential developable value, officials said.”

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by codeman671

“On a 3-2 vote, the Executive Council on Wednesday approved the $21.5 million sale of the former Laconia State School property to private developers despite financial questions about some of the project’s key members. The development will include 340 single-family, duplex or triplex homes, half of which will be priced as “entry-level,” 108 condominiums, 500 apartments — 120 designated as “workforce housing” — and 350 townhouses. The site also will have 360 units of independent living units for seniors, along with 230 assisted-care units, which McCoy will spearhead, according to a spokesman for the developers. Along with housing, the project includes a 1,000-seat convention center and a 250-room hotel, as well as urgent care, child care and pharmacy facilities on site. Half of the property will remain undeveloped and taxed under the state’s current-use law, which values property in its natural state rather than at its potential developable value, officials said.”

I haven't seen this much development in the Lakes Region since the 80's and we know what happened then!

[LongBay]

They will be lucky if half those number of units go in. Same old...ask for 1,000 so you will at least get 500. Everyone thinks they won.

[John Mercier]

It would be a loss to the developer, not the State, if the density is lower than proposed.

More than likely... they will seek higher density with more units to maximize profits.

[stingray]

I assume the half of the property designated as not to be developed will be the wetlands


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[8gv]

When does construction start on the Elm St. flyover bypass?

[WinnisquamZ]

Looking to place some endangered species on the property. Who’s with me?


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[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Looking to place some endangered species on the property. Who’s with me?


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I've got a few arrowheads...

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[WinnisquamZ]

That’s the spirit


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[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by stingray

I assume the half of the property designated as not to be developed will be the wetlands


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Probably not.

Wetlands may be held in an attempt to get higher density building on the rest of the site... but when held in CU, it is most likely a recreational corridor that they hope to build in sometime in the future.

[WinnisquamZ]

A little good news yesterday is the state senate refused to fund the $3 million water and sewer project required for the purchase and sale to move forward.


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[John Mercier]

I believe the senate opposition to the sewer line item was because the deal had not closed. I do not believe it was a requirement to purchase the property.

Laconia, to the best of my knowledge, is having issues with water to Turner Way... and wants to bring both water and sewer to that area... requiring upgrades further down the line.

High density housing can only be brought to were the water and sewer lines are... and the most underdeveloped sections of Laconia are in that direction.

[Descant]

I'm pretty sure, in my neck of the woods, developers pay for sewer/water expansion and recover their costs when they sell or open the doors to their development. Sewer/water fees pay the operating costs. It being state property, I'd understand better if the state were responsible for asbestos abatement or other hazmat mitigation.

[John Mercier]

Not sure the project was actual going into the property... more about creating a loop down Elm and into North Main that could serve a spur to Turner Way.

[WinnisquamZ]

As I noted the sale has not been finalized. New target is end of September with the developer handling the sewer and water hookups. Not the state, as requested. Project is already being scaled back
https://newhampshirebulletin.com/202...0-fewer-homes/


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[John Mercier]

It isn't stopping the sale...
And the developer is looking to water and sewer on-site... not the loop that the request to the State was for.

Laconia water and sewer residents will need to pay for the expansion of the lines to Turner Way... which has to be done whether the LSS property commences or not.

[WinnisquamZ]

Not yet. Give it time


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[TiltonBB]

The council voted 3-2 in December to allow the Department of Administrative Services to negotiate a purchase and sales agreement with Alexander. Commissioner Charlie Arlinghaus said Friday that negotiations are going well and he expects to close with Alexander in September.

More info here:

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...1ecaebbcf.html

[WinnisquamZ]

Expects is the key word. Since the the buyer has had property foreclosure and financing issues. With interest rates where they are and the cost of doing business high in NH. One can speculate this purchase may not happen as advertised


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[John Mercier]

The buyer is just the front.
It is the strength of the investors behind Alexander that will see it through.

Sell any develop property at less than $10,000 per acre with city water and sewer connections that would allow multiple lots per acre... and you have a winner.

It is really just getting rid of the garbage that Laconia politics played as a role in the initial planning.

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Expects is the key word. Since the the buyer has had property foreclosure and financing issues. With interest rates where they are and the cost of doing business high in NH. One can speculate this purchase may not happen as advertised


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According to tomorrows LDS the closing has been delayed until sometime in November. Various reasons are identified, but I refer you all back to my previous post. The buyers are having difficulty securing the financing and backing required to complete the transaction. Toss in the current economic and housing market, I don’t see this closing as currently stated


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[John Mercier]

No, they aren't.

The argument is over the snowmobile trail.

[WinnisquamZ]

If you believe that I have a wood bridge over in weirs I would like to sell if you are interested


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[John Mercier]

It has been an argument for quite some time.

Certain people want it embedded in the deed... and the buyers do not want it deeded. The State is looking at means to move it, so that it can go around or limit intrusion into the property. That is why Sununu feels confident that it will close in a couple months.

The money interested in the Lakeport area is much greater than most would guess.

[fatlazyless]

Here's a report .... http://www.nhbr.com/theres-another-s...saga-laconias/ ... on the proposed State School development by former Laconia town manager, Scott Myers, from the NH Business Review on December 13, 2022.

[John Mercier]

The ''problems'' the City of Laconia has is pretty well known.
Their ''asks'' were/are considered laughable by pretty much anyone willing to bid on the property.

Why would I want to build a parking area that would be overrun on evenings and weekends when the ball games were in progress? Then the baseball team went kaput.

So it became a non-issue. The ''green space'' became a ''green way'' which they now want to be a deeded access snowmobile trail. Deeded access would mean that I could never place any non-motorized designated funds into the deeded corridor... forever.

Snowmobile registrations dropped from roughly 78,000 in 2003, to roughly 50,000 currently. In 2018, they asked the Legislature to form a committee to find new funding. The most the Legislature could do is really something that was done in the STAC at BoT and change the way the RTP funding could be used. It will only delay the funding issue... not placate it.

The property in question is very near were they run the Laconia World Championship Dogsled event, usually in February were we tend to have the best snow pack and conditions in the area. They have cancelled for many years now.

[barefootbay]

Two words Illegal Immigrants !

[John Mercier]

Pretty sure that will not be happening.
The NH Legislature would need to change the laws in NH.

The proposal is more like Southdown with a commercial aspect.

The traffic will be horrendous.

[WinnisquamZ]

Tomorrow’s LDS has a article stating the sale of the state school is delayed once again!



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[John Mercier]

Still arguing over the trail.
The State wants to move it to one side... but will use the ROW of 106 to allow access across the front.

It removes the permanent easement from the property, but creates questions by the investors about how much risk they are taking on dealing with a government that states one thing, but changes it after making a political assessment.

[John Mercier]

I think Legacy's funding is getting a little shaky.

Alexander's vision is not lining up with the investors.

[8gv]

What would be the delta on interest rates from the first agreements to now?

It would seem that the cost of the project would be much higher than planned.

[John Mercier]

It was more direct investment rather than mortgage.
They are now actively looking for investors, but once had the full funding - with reserve - for the entire project.

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

I think Legacy's funding is getting a little shaky.

Alexander's vision is not lining up with the investors.

Yup, heard rumors back in September about the financial issues. One additional issue you need to consider is Sununu not seeking reelection. The buyers are “friends of Sununu”. Without support from the governors office the “money” is walking away. This is why Sununu and the certain city officials are trying to close the deal before the end of this year.


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[John Mercier]

Sununu and the City officials are the ones that standing in the way. They are changing the original agreement.

Sununu decided not to run for re-election because of the ConVal and Rand cases. After Commissioner Edelblut's testimony that the State was not paying for some if its mandates that case was over. His further testimony pretty much sunk the ship.

The last time this happened, the sitting governor and the Republican party lost big. Sununu would rather go out a winner.

[WinnisquamZ]

John, I identified the financial issues with the buyers in September. You said I was wrong. What is it with you when others might have a bit more knowledge then you? The city has documented what they would like to see, but it’s not practical or profitable in today’s market. The issue isn’t the city it is the buyers.


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[John Mercier]

The investors have the money...
They don't like the changes that the State and City are imposing in the changes to the plan.

The ''buyer'' as you are calling her is just speaking for the group.

The State didn't want to handle the subdivision and sale of each lot.
They also didn't want to parcel it out as larger pieces for individual investment goals.

And the City did not want us just to build condos in blocks and detached versions.

They changed the mix of what was proposed to be built, so moving the single family units either up or down, meant that investor was willing pay a little more or less to the project... and so forth for each piece.

If they would just sell it for the $21 million and stop trying to add easements and manage the project... the sale would have been completed by now.

But every time they near closing... the City wants to dictate what type of units will be built, or the State wants to dictate what activities will be allowed on the property.

So the investors, just like when Mitchell wanted to buy the Weirs' Drive-In, walk away....

If Sununu and Hosmer really want it sold... they will need to end the grandstanding... so they are in the way... not supporting the sale.

[WinnisquamZ]

https://www.wmur.com/article/closing...nuary/46003065


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[John Mercier]

The $21M to buy the land and the $21M more need to meet the basis of the OZ requirement already exists. LaCroix has that all covered

The other $210M~ available under the OZ has been partially met, but will not see the remainder in any amount of real time.

The early investor interest in a project of this magnitude with environmental foresight went right out the window with the proposed changes.