HUB status in Moultonborough

[longislander]

Just heading out the door to Concord but should be back for the 4:00 PM meeting.

Annualized cost should be part of the annual budget, as in a contractual, monetary town responsibility.

Valuation sets the tax rate, but the town budget is part of the tax effort, I believe. Town Tax effort divided by Town Valuation = Town tax rate.

I suspect a "build contractor" RFQ would go out in the spring/summer if the town approves the warrant article. The one of two "cost contractors" Conestco (the other did not meet requirements set) does not appear "big" enough to get the job done.

I would agree price is locked when the town and contractor have signed a contract.

[John Mercier]

It does become part of the annual budget.
But because it is a bond premium... it isn't open to being adjusted.

I am not sure how they would word an open bonding amount.

Maybe bond up to... but not really sure.

Most often the design/build locks the number and then the amount is bonded at the next town budget vote or denied.
That process is then either dropped or repeated again for the next cycle until the bond warrant passes.

[longislander]

Still waiting for the wife. Maybe this where the survey numbers come from:

Just noticed bond monthly payment: $144,208 X 12 months = $1,730,496 annual payments

$1,730,496 annual payment divided by $4,892,023,118 valuation = .0003537 or .03537/1000

Close enough to " $.036$/1000 of town assesed property value "impact to taxpayers" .

[longislander]

Sitting here waiting for the wife to get out of her appointment. I don't usually take my laptop but did today and noticed a typo in last post.

$1,730,496 annual payment divided by $4,892,023,118 valuation = .0003537 or .03537/1000

Close enough to " $.036$/1000 of town assesed property value "impact to taxpayers" .

Should be $.36/$1000 not $.036/$1000

[longislander]

Back in MoBo and getting ready for the meeting.

If it's $1,730,496 added to the town tax effort, then:

Present municipal Tax effort $6,144,066 and add $1,730,496 = $7,874,562 is new municipal tax effort.

$1,730, 496 added to $23,355,110 ( present total tax effort, Municipal + County + Local Ed. + State Ed.) = $25,085,606 new total tax effort

The municipal $7,874,562 divided by $4,892,023,118 (Valuation) = 1.61/1000 town tax rate. Present tax rate is 1.25/1000

Total tax rate is presently 4.78/1000. New rate is 5.14/1000
1.61 + .80 + 1.76 + .97 = 5.14

[longislander]

After this evening's select board meeting ... actually a 15 year bond at 5.25%, not 10 year at 4% ... no one knew how the $.36/$1000 was calculated, except given by the bond folks saying .36/1000 ... of what ... did the only rational thing.

Went to Buckeyes, had a couple of brews with dinner and came home.

Good Bye and so long!

[longislander]

15 year bond at 5.25% interest

Monthly payment $114,500 x 12 months = $1,374,000 annually
Total interest paid $6,366,520
Total cost of loan $20,609,935
Payoff date Dec 2037

[tis]

Just watching these towns spend money, I am beginning to think recreation is more important than police, fire, infrastructure. Is that what government is supposed to be about?

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by tis

Just watching these towns spend money, I am beginning to think recreation is more important than police, fire, infrastructure. Is that what government is supposed to be about?

NH towns have their own local public school buildings that usually have gymnasiums that can be used for adult recreation during off school hours, when the student population is not using them. Volleyball, basketball, and pickleball programs are all doable in the off-hours at your local school gym.

For three dollars you can play pickleball from 10:15-11:45, Tues, Thurs, Friday at the Laconia Community Center ..... www.laconianh.gov/1030/Community-Center ....... two p-ball courts with a maple hardwood floor ..... where and when the best pickleballers go to play!

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

Just watching these towns spend money, I am beginning to think recreation is more important than police, fire, infrastructure. Is that what government is supposed to be about?

Boating, snowmobiling, alpine skiing, horseback riding, etc, etc, etc...
The towns/cities focus on what the population focuses on.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

This is definitely NOT the time to be pushing the ridiculous HUB on Moultonboro taxpayers. A perfect solution, percolating in my sick mind, would be to have nonresident waterfront taxpayers suddenly claim their NH property as their primary residence, and then appear at Town Meeting in May and vote against the warrant article. I realize this isn’t necessarily a practical solution, but a huge percentage of our taxes (70%?) are paid by non residents. Who knows? Maybe enough taxpayers will be sick of having their wallets picked!

[John Mercier]

You mean March?
They would just add it to the next cycle like they have been doing.

It is actually pretty hard to get a bond to pass... and that is on items that many may consider necessary; like fire or police.

[longislander]

You mean March?

Moultonborough changed the "town meeting day" to May a couple of years ago. For 2023, "ballot voting" day is May 9th, Tuesday, for voting on officials, zoning, and other items only allowed by statute. The second session is on Thursday May 11th, starting at 6:00pm, at the school academy.

Legally, the town voters (legislative body) decides the meeting month, either March, April, or May. The governing body, (select board for MoBo) decides the time and day, legally, of the second session.

For many, many years, the second session was on Saturday, starting in the morning around 9:30am or so, after the School District annual meeting at the same location.

Some believe the premise for the change away from Saturday, was because the change to May interfered a lot with warm weather activities, that were not affected as much in March; e.g., boating, outdoor sports etc.

Others believe the change to a night session during the week, not weekend, was to keep the seniors away from voting against The Hub.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by longislander

Some believe the premise for the change away from Saturday, was because the change to May interfered a lot with warm weather activities, that were not affected as much in March; e.g., boating, outdoor sports etc.

Others believe the change to a night session during the week, not weekend, was to keep the seniors away from voting against The Hub.

Great illustration of how the "pure...perfect..." romanticized version of democracy that is Town Meeting is among the least democratic structures. Basically, people have to "pay" (with their valuable time) to vote. Much more appropriate for major issues would be a ballot question in November and/or elected representatives with authority

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Great illustration of how the "pure...perfect..." romanticized version of democracy that is Town Meeting is among the least democratic structures. Basically, people have to "pay" (with their valuable time) to vote. Much more appropriate for major issues would be a ballot question in November and/or elected representatives with authority

Other people may have opposing views.

I grew up in a town with an open Town Meeting format. It gives every citizen the opportunity to question department heads, Selectmen, Finance Committee, School Committee and any town official about any issue. Anyone can go to the microphone and state their case and amend the wording of any line item or the amount to be appropriated.

If someone views their time as too valuable to get involved in the decision making they also lose the opportunity to educate themselves about the issues. A simple ballot question can be worded in many ways to push the desired outcome.

Many people move into a town and their only concern is trash disposal and how well their street gets plowed. They couldn't name one Selectman or town official and learn very little about how the town operates. Those are not the people I would want voting on important questions that will shape the future of the town.

[John Mercier]

We use SB2.
Ballot question in March.

The deliberative session allows for the question/answer/comment/amend without making the town meeting take all day.

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

I grew up in a town with an open Town Meeting format. It gives every citizen the opportunity to question department heads, Selectmen, Finance Committee, School Committee and any town official about any issue.

SB2 does the exact same thing. And cuts all the bulls**t out.

[longislander]

I wasn't a resident yet, but Moultonbourough has voted 4 times for SB2 adoption, in the past and failed. Senate bill SB2 passed in 1995 and put the question on the Tuesday ballot for adoption (need a petition). Most voters probably didn't understand what SB2 is/was. In 2019 the NH legislature changed the adoption process with HB415. It changed SB2 adoption from the Tuesday ballot ... to the business session of town meeting. There will be an SB2 petition on Moultonborough's 2023 warrant. Some of us are getting ready with handouts.

SB2 vs. Traditional Meeting

FOR SB2:
SB2: A Month to Research Warrant Discussions Before Voting.
SB2: All Warrant Articles Are Voted on Tuesday Ballot, not just electing
officials, zoning, and other required by statute.
All day voting. In and out in a little while. Not hours and hours waiting
to vote.
SB2: Absentee Ballots Include ALL Warrant Articles
Snowbirds, military, and other absentees can vote on all warrant articles.
SB2: All Voting is Secret, in curtained voting booth
Traditional meeting hand, card, or paper votes intimidate some voters.


AGAINST SB2:
Fewer Attendees at SB2 Deliberative Session
There should be! Many already know how they will vote.
SB2 Does Not Allow Debate of Warrant Articles
Not true! Yes, it does, at the deliberative session. Same as traditional.
SB2 Does Not Allow Amendments to Warrant Articles
Not true! Yes, It Does, at the deliberative session. Same as traditional.
Traditional Meeting Allows For More of a Social Event.
No, it doesn't. SB2 Deliberative Session social event can be the same.
SB2 Jeopardizes the Budget
Traditional imperils the budget more. SB2 has default budget or other.

[Descant]

We changed from traditional to SB2 in 1996. I've been active in town government since 1990 and active in the community since 1976. We used to have huge turnout to towm meeting-three gymnasia full, connected electronically, three big monitors, One Moderator with an assistant in each gym. Worked pretty good. Now, we get ~50 attendees plus department heads. Some union members if there is a contract to vote on, but generally, you can't amend the contract already agreed to by the BOS, just vote yes or no.
The default budget is a scam. Despite attempts to clean up the process, it frequently is closely equal to or even exceeds the proposed budget. All the folks who were afraid that ballot voting would kill the expansion budgets found a way around that by being liberal with the calculation of the default budget. The budget also gets expanded by taking must haves (new roof) out of the operating budget and putting them in as separate warrant articles to make the budget look more conservative. If you like voting by mail for President, you'll love SB2.

[fatlazyless]

North Conway NH ..... www.northconwaycommunitycenter.org/our-facility ..... has a community center which opened on November 13, 2016.

"After twelve years of planning, the dream became a reality!" ...

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

North Conway NH ..... www.northconwaycommunitycenter.org/our-facility ..... has a community center which opened on November 13, 2016.

"After twelve years of planning, the dream became a reality!" ...

Each community is different.

[phoenix]

FLL what no pool ?

[TheProfessor]

Note that the gymnasium at the Meredith Complex cannot be used for any official organized sports such as basketball.

Wrong type of flooring material.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

My point in all this was to try and get a general idea of the tax impact on our residents, and there are so many unknowns here….but this much I do know….this is a very ambitious and expensive project for a town the size of moultonborough, and the thought of pouring this much money into something that will undoubtedly be underutilized once the excitement wears off….and the costs will continue indefinitely. This whole thing reminds me of the proverbial dead horse: “when the horse is dead, GET OFF!” The proponents just won’t get off!

[Susie Cougar]

I would have thought that most of the people in favor of this were young people. But I noticed that one of the people speaking at the last meeting was a lady in her 70s who lived on Long Point Road. She does not live on the lake. Are most who are in favor of this people who live on back lots? Is there a way to break down who the average person in favor of this? Is it not broken down by age, but by location?

[Sue Doe-Nym]

The proponents, for the most part, are the families of school age children, with adults thrown in who want to use the facilities. Those who will be paying the lions’ share and using it the least, if at all, are the non-resident waterfront taxpayers. If we had more residents, and if there were plans for individual and family memberships or single use charges, that might make this a more tenable plan. We’ll have to see what transpires.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

The proponents, for the most part, are the families of school age children, with adults thrown in who want to use the facilities. Those who will be paying the lions’ share and using it the least, if at all, are the non-resident waterfront taxpayers. If we had more residents, and if there were plans for individual and family memberships or single use charges, that might make this a more tenable plan. We’ll have to see what transpires.

Does anyone know what percentage of Moultonborough waterfront homes are year-round?

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Think, this is just a guesstimate, but I believe that about 70% of Moultonboro taxpayers are non- residents, and it would be logical to assume that a high number of those are waterfront owners. A call to Ashley at the tax office might get you a decent number.

I didn’t answer your question….. I don’t know how many are year round.

[longislander]

The last census indicates around a population of 5,000 residents. Registered voters is close to 4,000. Summer crowd swells to 25,000-30,000 in some estimates.

Here's a note to the Moultonborough town hall today:

Don't know if you're also getting email etc. about how much extra tax, folks will have to pay for a $15 million dollar bond. I'm including some thoughts I'm sharing with others.
$15 million dollar bond @5.25% for 15 years.
Using amortization calculator: $1,446,984 for 12 months; total interest paid $6,704,698;15 year cost $21,704,698

2022 "tax effort" $6,144,066 divided by 2022 valuation $4,892,023,118 =1.25 tax rate
Municipal +County+ Local Ed.+ State Ed. = Total Tax rate; 1.25+.80+1.75+.97 = 4.78/1000 total tax rate
Let's say the $1,446,984 is added to the "tax effort" to the municipal rate, then the new municipal "tax effort" is $7,591,050
Then, $7,591,050 divided by valuation $4,892,023,118 is the new tax rate for this exercise = 1.55/1000
1.55+.8o+1.76+.97 = 5.08 the new total tax rate

Then,
Sample 2022 tax bills
2022 Assessment x tax rates 4.478/1000 and 5.08/1000

Sample Assessments x tax rate = annual tax bill
For 4.78/1000
$200,000 x .00478 = $956
$300,000 x .00478 = $1,434
$400,000 x .00478 = $1,912
$500,000 x .00478 = $2,390
$750,000 x .00478 = $3,585
$1,000,000 x .00478 = $4,780
$2,000,000 x .00478 = $9,560

For 5.08/1000
$200,000 x .00508 = $1,016 tax; difference: $60 = 6.3%
$300,000 x .00508 = $1,524 tax; difference: $90 = 6.3%
$400,000 x .00508 = $2,032 tax; difference: $120 = 6.3%
$500,000 x .00508 = $2,540 tax; difference: $150 = 6.3%
$750,000 x .00508 = $3,810 tax; difference: $225 = 6.3 %
$1,000,000 x .00508 = $5,080 tax difference: $300 =6.3%
$2,000,000 x .00508 = $10,160 tax difference: $600 = 6.3%

Also, 5.08- 4.78 = .30; 30/4.78 = 6.3%

Can someone with a million dollar home afford another $300 ?
The idea is to let folks not panic by all the scuttlebutt, about whatever bond rates that they heard of, or misinformation thereof.

Maybe % of present tax instead of "something" to do with a bond might allay fears!

Let me know if the logic or math is out-of-whack.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

Think, this is just a guesstimate, but I believe that about 70% of Moultonboro taxpayers are non- residents, and it would be logical to assume that a high number of those are waterfront owners. A call to Ashley at the tax office might get you a decent number.

I didn’t answer your question….. I don’t know how many are year round.

I understood something similar, though I am not certain--70% of the assessed value is waterfront.

This number or Sue's gets at the basic reason why many voters support the project--those not on the water, and planning to use the facility regularly are getting a great deal.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Much of what Flying Scot says is true, and I think it’s the attitude of entitlement that these people demonstrate that really annoys taxpayers. It’s the attitude that is so infuriating, rather than the dollar amount per thousand that would be assessed. These entitled people aren’t willing to put any demonstrable “skin in the game”.

[tummyman]

Well, this continues to be an exercise in making the imprecise precise. The Hub folks said $.36 /1000 for the bonding and $.06 /1000 for ongoing. Total.....$.42/1000. I suspect that things will change over the course of time between now and May Town Meeting. So what????

I believe overall $.42 /1000 may be a tad low. No indication about interest rate movement, no idea what assessed valuations are going to do, and the ongoing costs may need some buffing. Use $.50 / 1000 if it suits you. Easy math. At $.50/1000, each $100,000 of valuation costs $50. $500,000 equates to $250. Each million costs $500. It does not matter on the scheme of things if the rate is $.42, $.46, or even $.50 per 1000. Waterfront will most likely see impacts of at least $1000 at a $2M valuation. Non waterfront will probably be in the $250-$500 range. Done. Do not get lost of all these math gyrations. It is a range...that is all. Does it really matter if it is $210 vs. $250 for a $500,000 property? Or $420 vs. $500 for a $1M property? Just my opinion, but the real issues are totally being obscured. Maybe that suits some of the HUB supporters...keep away from the real issues.

The real discussion should focus on "need" vs "want". And it should also focus on demanding...really demanding the BoS, who to date are basically in a hands off mode and not doing ANY real work on this project... to go out for a formal bid on the overall project to seal the cost. They require it for a dump truck. The time to do it is now....4 1/2 months before town meeting. Have it priced in 2023 dollars and an escalation clause based on cost index as an example. Why not do it for this project? Where are our BoS leaders? And if some say that the documents are not complete enough to get a formal bid, then they are not complete enough for an estimate. One estimate is total baloney. Ask anyone on the HUB committee if they would build a house or have an addition put on with just one bid and they would laugh at you. People are being led down the primrose path to believe that the ONE estimate is gossipal. Up to now people ar being fd crumbs. Never has there ben a real discussion on needs......other than "we need this".

The other issue that needs to be addressed is that the ongoing operating cost must be covered by membership and/or use fees. FULLY self supporting, not on the backs of taxpayers. Well if people "want it and need it, then let the users pay for it and not keep charging the non users. Get real folks ! Called "pay to play" !!

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by phoenix

FLL what no pool ?

..... apparently, not at the North Conway Community Center.

With many different motels, hotels, and Mt Cranmore could be North Conway has a swim pool venue somewhere else?

You know what NH community center does have a swimming pool? The Community Center in Claremont NH ..... http://www.claremontnh.com/claremont...mmunity-center ...... it says the CSBCC is home to a 25 yard indoor pool .... grand opening, March 2, 2013.

In 2021 Claremont had a property tax rate of 40.98 per $1000 of a property's assessed value while Moultonborough had a tax rate of 6.98 per $1000 in 2021.

So, yes Claremont has a community center with an indoor 25-yard pool, while Moultonborough with the much lower rate does not have a community center?

You know what they say: The richer you get, the tighter you get! ........ :eek2

So, how many Claremont home owners also own a vacation place in Florida?

[Shipfitter]

Not so much as how we will pay for it but who will take care of the day to day operations. I’m sure the rec dept head doesn’t want all those additional responsibilities without some additional pay. He may not want the extra responsibility at all. It’s going to take 5 to 10 people to man the desk, set up programs, clean and maintain the pool and building. It might take the addition of an entire department to run the complex. We don’t really have the population to justify the expense. Just because we can afford it doesn’t mean we need it. A smaller building that the Rec dept could handle in my opinion is what we need.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Shipfitter, you are spot on! The building and complex are just the beginning, and the costs to run it will be astronomical! Not to shift gears, but right now people are dealing with inflation. The HUB = Insanity!

[fatlazyless]

Looking at the Claremont Savings Bank Community Center website ....... http://www.claremontnh.com/claremont...mmunity-center ...... which has a high quality, 25-yard indoor, 82-degree warm, swimming pool ..... opened in 2013;

a 1-year non-resident family membership costs $475.00,

a 1-year resident family membership costs $350.00,

a non-resident day pass costs $7-adult, $5-youth, $5-senior,

a resident day pass costs $5-adult, $3-youth, $3-senior,

all to help pay the long list of operating costs which includes items like electricity, insurance, heat, and new pickleballs.

[phoenix]

Big difference between wants and needs

[tummyman]

An interesting number is that the Claremont Community Center, with one pool, has 2023 budgeted costs of some $1.4M I would hope that there was a detailed review and discussion with Claremont as to why their costs are 4+ times as much as the estimate to run the HUB. A reconciliation must be made, especially with uninterested M'boro third parties preparing an accounting. Should not be by people in M'boro that are invested in seeing the HUB pass. The Claremont model is what I have been saying for a while...membership and usage charges must offset the annual operating costs. Not sure how much of Claremont's costs are offset with these fees. Time to really hone in on the numbers.

[phoenix]

I have also felt the operating cost are understated. Keeping a facility open and staffed 7 days a week and I am sure 15 hours or more per day is more than 400k

[ACME on the Broads]

Perhaps a move to North Conway to enjoy their dream and expenses is in the cards for you?