HUB status in Moultonborough

[longislander]

Statutorily, April 4th is deadline for the petition, that only requires 25 registered voters.

[winni83]

Well this is not unexpected but nevertheless not good news. Borrin is running for the Moultonborough Selectboard. There are two seats up for grabs. Kevin Quinlan’s and Jim Gray’s. I have heard that Kevin is going to run and that Jim Gray may not run.

[longislander]

I have heard that Kevin is going to run and that Jim Gray may not run.

I believe that is correct.

Chuck McGee will be running again.

[phoenix]

maybe he would recluse himself ha ha ha

[Cal-to-NH]

Interesting news on the upcoming Selectman election! Thanks for that. Also, thanks for the presentation! Borrin, unfortunately, was not a great choice by the selectmen to be the HUB guy. At the meeting I went to early in the process, he came-off as so unlikable. He certainly thinks a lot about himself, however. He's not a bad guy, just all ego.
Although I can swim and played water polo as a kid, I was never good enough to make either the swim team or water polo team at my very large high school. In college I was a swim official and officiated some high school swim meets, as the cash was good. I say all this because I told Borrin 2 years ago that a regulation pool for both water polo and swim meets is a 25 yard pool with 6 lanes. A 5 lane pool will never be used for either purpose. I see in the presentation they are still saying that revenue could be made by competitions. He's right that the money from these things is quite good, but he's selling a "bill-of-goods" to people who don't know better. It may be a small thing, but the killer for me is that he knows it's not true, and so you know what that makes him.... For me, at least, it makes me wonder what else is - shall we say - embellished...

[winni83]

Here is the Warrant Article filed yesterday with the Town by the Taj Mahal group. It is up by $400,000 over their earlier version.

[phoenix]

Maybe if they lose this time they will quit

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by Cal-to-NH

Interesting news on the upcoming Selectman election! Thanks for that. Also, thanks for the presentation! Borrin, unfortunately, was not a great choice by the selectmen to be the HUB guy. At the meeting I went to early in the process, he came-off as so unlikable. He certainly thinks a lot about himself, however. He's not a bad guy, just all ego.
Although I can swim and played water polo as a kid, I was never good enough to make either the swim team or water polo team at my very large high school. In college I was a swim official and officiated some high school swim meets, as the cash was good. I say all this because I told Borrin 2 years ago that a regulation pool for both water polo and swim meets is a 25 yard pool with 6 lanes. A 5 lane pool will never be used for either purpose. I see in the presentation they are still saying that revenue could be made by competitions. He's right that the money from these things is quite good, but he's selling a "bill-of-goods" to people who don't know better. It may be a small thing, but the killer for me is that he knows it's not true, and so you know what that makes him.... For me, at least, it makes me wonder what else is - shall we say - embellished...

It would be most helpful to our cause if you would write a letter to the editor of the Meredith News and the Laconia Daily sun, citing the information in your post. So many Moultonborough residents get their news from these papers, and we must get everything we can to convince voters to nix this insane project. I am not at all surprised that the instigators have been suppressing the true facts and figures….it’s really a disgrace. Anyhow, if you could manage that, and we all get everyone with financial interest in this to come to the meeting on May 11 at 6.
Thanks.
Sue

[tummyman]

BOS voted tonight 2...Yes, 3.... NO for the Petitioned Warrant article on the HUB.

[phoenix]

Hopefully the finance committee does the same

[tummyman]

Finance Committee is advisory only and their opinion on this is not based on ANY review of information. In my opinion, not important at all.

[Wishbone]

The Letter quotes the proposed warrant article -

“The space is designed for group meetings, private functions such as weddings, birthday parties, bridal or baby showers, business lunches/dinners and gatherings of all sizes, making it Moultonborough’s best location for functions.”

Should the town be competing with tax paying private businesses in town by doing weddings? Have we looked into the demand for such events? Also, would all activities be closed on days that weddings/events are going on? Lastly, in the unique labor market, would The Hub be able to staff its facilities?

If the people proposing this really think this is viable, why don't they build a facility and run it themselves?

[phoenix]

i guess unless you can get someone else to pay for it

[tummyman]

They already are...over 70% of taxes come from lakefront properties and the majority cannot vote. So the 'residents" vote for a want and they pass the bill on to those who have no say.

[John Mercier]

So change residency.

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by Cal-to-NH

Also, thanks for the presentation! - embellished...

SB2 would allow ALL interested voters to vote . . . at their leisure . . . on voting day.

Not some long out drawn out meeting where every nutcase can take up time babbling about this or that.

[longislander]

SB2 Offical Ballot Referenda vs. Traditional Meeting
Pros and Cons

FOR SB2:

SB2: A Month To Research Warrant Article Discussions Before Voting. Traditional Requires Immediate Vote, Then and There.

SB2: All Warrant Articles Are Voted On Tuesday Ballot. All Day Voting. In And Out. Not Hours Waiting to Finish Voting, and Bored.

SB2: Absentee Ballots Would Now Include All Warrant Articles. Snowbirds, Military, and Other Absentees Can Vote On All Warrant Articles.

SB2: All Voting Is Secret, In Curtained Voting Booth. Traditional Hand Or Card Votes, Intimidate Some Voters.

SB2 No, Voter "Reconsideration" Shenanigans.

AGAINST SB2:

Fewer Attendees At SB2 Deliberative Session
There Should Be! Many Folks Already Know How They Will Vote.

Traditional Meeting Allows For More of a Social Event. No, It Doesn't. SB2 Deliberative Session Can Also Be a Social Event, Same as Traditional.

SB2 Does Not Allow Debate of Warrant Articles. Not true! Yes, It Does, At The Deliberative Session. Same As Traditional.

SB2 Does Not Allow Amendments to Warrant Articles. Not true! Yes, It Does, At The Deliberative Session. Same As Traditional.

SB2 Jeopardizes The Budget. Traditional Town Meeting Imperils The Budget More. SB2 Also Has a Default Budget.

[phoenix]

Nice to see a lot of “ scrub the hub signs” around town

[lakesregionguy]

If you own property and pay taxes in the Town you should be able to vote on how that money is spent. This Town's mentality is to spend other people's money. This is not the time, and perhaps never, to consider a project of this magnitude for a town of the size of Moultonboro regardless of who is paying for it. The HUB proponents have a lot of nerve to continue to put the Town through this every year. Enough already !

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by lakesregionguy

If you own property and pay taxes in the Town you should be able to vote on how that money is spent. This Town's mentality is to spend other people's money. This is not the time, and perhaps never, to consider a project of this magnitude for a town of the size of Moultonboro regardless of who is paying for it. The HUB proponents have a lot of nerve to continue to put the Town through this every year. Enough already !

I agree with you…..and my happy ending for this, though unrealistic and improbable, would be that all the nonresident lakefront property owners banded together and declared their Moultonborough property their primary residence, and voted down the HUB! It’s a fantasy, but a truly delicious one.

[John Mercier]

Just voting it down one year doesn't stop it.
As long as enough registered voting residents sign the petition, it would be on for the next town meeting.

[tis]

I find it interesting that Tuftonboro sent out a survey asking if people would like a pool in town. One of the options was to have a pool with other towns. One of my fears is that these towns are going to tax people right out of their homes. Or maybe you're right, they think the lake people will pay for all their toys.

[LIforrelaxin]

So I continue to loosely follow this.... While I think the idea is good an sound, in theory, as someone has pointed out some of the facts are misleading, and some of the money will be a waste.

The biggest waste I see is on the "competition pool".... My wife is a swim coach, 5 lane pools are not at all desirable for any purpose other then training.
They aren't big enough for water polo and even dual meets between high schools find them hard to utilize.... If the idea is for the pool to be a competition pool capable of handing even high school dual meets it needs to have a minimum of 6 lanes and preferable 8... To be able to hold bigger meets such as state meets or district level meets 8 will just barely cover it, and ideal the pool should be 10 lanes wide, with an addition warm up / cool down pool......

If Moultonborough wants to build a decent facility they should do the research and make sure they have the correct parameters.. a 5 lane pool is a joke
Correctly built, I believe they could make a very usable facility, that could be used to generate some level of income for the town.... But what I see is simply a rec. center that will benefit the year round residents at some level, but likely will not even meet their needs in some aspects....

[DickR]

One big problem I have with the proposal is how it has the town so divided between proponents and opponents, with the high and uncertain cost having the potential to impose a significant tax burden on many. We ought to keep in mind that when it comes to legislative matters at the local, state, or federal level, having the votes to enact something doesn't necessarily mean that we ought to. The impact of passing something on a great segment of voters must be considered. We can't always have what we'd like.

[phoenix]

see Borin lost

[winni83]

While Borrin lost, Tolman's win is being viewed by the HUB proponents as a win for them on the theory that both Tolman and Borin are of one mind with respect to the HUB. That is probably true, as evidenced by the post on Borrin's Facebook page updating his profile picture, see attached. Colby and Beadle are rabid HUB supporters and Crawford is always a question, so even if Crawford remains opposed to the HUB it looks like it will be 3 to 2 in favor of the HUB on the Selectboard. I believe that Quinlan will reamain opposed. Note Borrin's congratulatory note to Tolman, with no mention of Kevin Quinlan.

Mark Borrin _ Facebook.pdf

[John Mercier]

Selectboard doesn't matter on the issue.
They have more than enough registered signatures to keep putting the issue up for a vote.

So the voters overall attitude toward the proposal is what will be the deciding factor each time.

[longislander]

Selectboard doesn't matter on the issue.

Correct.

The voters that are there, and vote, will determine outcome. Need at least 60% (3/5ths) of ballots cast of the secret ballots to prevail.

Only takes 25 registered voters to petition and place on the town meeting warrant for a vote.

[Wishbone]

From looking at the documentation on the Hub, it will be a facility that will be paid out of my taxes, yet will require me to pay more to use it. It also looks like it will add 400 to 500k a year in additional taxes to be collected to make up for the loss the facility will generate.

If this is such a good idea, how about the people who put in on the ballot, use their own money to bring a business like this to Moultonborough.

Clermont has a similar facility that loses several hundred thousand each year that must be made up by the tax payers.

[tummyman]

The Pool / Aquatics Center needs to go. Never was part of what town set money aside for a study in 2021. It is the main driver of long term costs and what is sinking Claremont and Dover already.

If this is such a need...I do not agree that it is....then let the HUB gang fund raise for it, get a 99 year lease of land from the town, build and then operate it. People need to wake up and not be snowed by a few !

[Descant]

Some years ago, we had a commercial "club", pool, gym, indoor tennis, track, weights, etc plus meeting rooms, and a night club area, drinks, music, dancing. It lasted a couple of years and failed. The YMCA was able to take it over at a huge discount. The fitness stuff is still operating, the nightclub is now an after school childcare facility. It requires a large population base to work, maybe 100,000(?) from 4 cities/towns. No tax support except for whatever they get as a non-profit.
2 points:
1. You need to buy something at bankruptcy prices
2. You need a large, year-round, population base.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by tummyman

The Pool / Aquatics Center needs to go. Never was part of what town set money aside for a study in 2021. It is the main driver of long term costs and what is sinking Claremont and Dover already.

If this is such a need...I do not agree that it is....then let the HUB gang fund raise for it, get a 99 year lease of land from the town, build and then operate it. People need to wake up and not be snowed by a few !

The pool/aquatics center is also the irony underlying the whole thing--the town is already blessed with one of the country's greatest aquatic centers

[ITD]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

The pool/aquatics center is also the irony underlying the whole thing--the town is already blessed with one of the country's greatest aquatic centers

Irony until you consider the greatest aquatic center is only above 60 degrees about half the year.


I was leaning against the hub for a while, but I'm slowly leaning toward it. My biggest reservation about it is that there are 10 other pork type expenditures waiting for the up vote on this to bring them to town meeting and say this got through, now it's our turn.

Tough question.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Tonight at 6. Go! There are no valid excuses! If you care about excess spending, do not stay at home watching tv! We need your vote! No to HUB!

[phoenix]

its a lot of money and operating cost based on like centers is understated

[LoveLakeLife]

Aquatic center = pool.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Jeanzb1]

I don’t live in Moultonborough, but I am following this. It seems to me that the population of the Town of Moultonborough is just too small to support such a monstrosity.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[winni83]

At Town Meeting now. Huge crowd. Long lines of people still waiting to check in. Supposed to start at 6:00 PM sharp. Not going to happen.

[Fastfury]

Today's meeting was rescheduled, people were in line from the high school out to the road, waiting in line, auditorium full.
It just says something about Our Town leader ship, no pre planning
Just call a vote for $17 million in a building that does not have the capacity of the voters,



Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[winni83]

Fastfury is 100% correct. The worst managed meeting I have ever seen, or more accurately, a non meeting, since it never started. After waiting for 35 minutes for the meeting to start (promptly at 6:00 per the Town Moderator), it did not take place and will have to be re-noticed and rescheduled. So a Town which cannot plan for and manage a meeting is going to run a monstrosity of a Community Center? I have it on good authority that a person in Town who knows what is going on went to the Town a week or so ago and told them that the turnout would be huge and to make contingency plans for overflow space in the gym and cafeteria, with remote screens, mikes, ballot boxes and assistant moderators. I am told that the Town dismissed her recommendations with a laugh. The Town did remote meeting rooms during Covid and while there were a few minor problems, that process worked. If this disaster of an attempted meeting did nothing but show the need for the Town to adopt the provisions of SB2, then the wasted evening was worth it.

The Town Moderator, Paul Punturieri, should resign his office since he is clearly responsible for much of this debacle this evening.

From the Facebook page run by Paul Punturieri:

"Please arrive early for check in for tomorrow's Town Meeting at the Academy auditorium. Check in will begin shortly after 5pm. We expect a large crowd and we will begin the meeting at 6pm sharp."

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by winni83

Fastfury is 100% correct. The worst managed meeting I have ever seen, or more accurately, a non meeting, since it never started. After waiting for 35 minutes for the meeting to start (promptly at 6:00 per the Town Moderator), it did not take place and will have to be re-noticed and rescheduled. So a Town which cannot plan for and manage a meeting is going to run a monstrosity of a Community Center? I have it on good authority that a person in Town who knows what is going on went to the Town a week or so ago and told them that the turnout would be huge and to make contingency plans for overflow space in the gym and cafeteria, with remote screens, mikes, ballot boxes and assistant moderators. I am told that the Town dismissed her recommendations with a laugh. The Town did remote meeting rooms during Covid and while there were a few minor problems, that process worked. If this disaster of an attempted meeting did nothing but show the need for the Town to adopt the provisions of SB2, then the wasted evening was worth it.



The Town Moderator, Paul Punturieri, should resign his office since he is clearly responsible for much of this debacle this evening.

The whole fiasco was a disgrace, and we are wondering how they will manage the rerun, given the fact that town management skills are lacking. I am hoping that
HUB fails and that the voters see the need for SB2 this time around.

[Wishbone]

I was there as well, got there early and still had to wait. Why would they set up the registration in the auditorium when they have a whole school to use? As mentioned before, if this doesn't validate the need for SB2, I don't what will.

Next question, is where or what are they going to do, to accommodate this many people. I also hope it is scheduled on a Saturday, so even more can attend.

[phoenix]

Its like pre counting and suspending if you don't get your answer

[Fastfury]

I made it to the entrance at 6:30
Watched many older people waited with Canes and walkers
Waiting
They had 4 handicap parking spaces , the Town shuttle bus was stuck in traffic,
The entrance is down the hill for away from parking,
no traffic control at the entrance.

Only 1272 people showed up for the general election, I think that's the problem.
The selectmen will probably have a closed
meeting to figure out what to do



Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[tummyman]

As i understand it, it is not the selectman's responsibility. It is up to the Moderator to figure things out with the help of the Town Administrator. Total disaster. Just another example of poor planning.

[winni83]

Another post by our clueless Town Moderator. We we are all human, but that does not excuse incompetence.. His attempt to redeem himself is pathetic.

‘“The largest crowd we ever had at town meeting prior to tonight was in 2019 when we had around 650 people check in. The expected attendance tonight was thought to be closer to 800 which with the use of the lobby and the aisles without blocking the exit doors was just enough to safely accommodate that number.
The moderator, selectmen, town clerk, town administrator, facilities, public works, school personnel and many town employees all work together to plan and conduct these meetings. Decisions are not made without a great deal of thought and effort, but at the end of the day the buck stops with us. This was an unfortunate situation, and we will do the best we can to avoid a recurrence.
Hindsight is always 20-20, but unfortunately it doesn't change the outcome. It is also not particularly helpful to be unnecessarily critical of people who are essentially volunteers working on your behalf. We are human and not omniscient.”

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Its like pre counting and suspending if you don't get your answer

They would just place it on next year's meeting agenda.

[ITD]

I waited in line, I could see probably half of it from where I was, this line was after the space was filled with people. Honestly every town meeting should have that many voters at it. I think the right decision was made to postpone the meeting. I also think that there was no way for the powers that be to predict that large of a turnout to the meeting. I think they acted properly in deciding not to go ahead with the meeting. I can't wait for the rescheduled meeting.


Too late to figure out how to rotate this file, it displays properly in my editor.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Wishbone

I was there as well, got there early and still had to wait. Why would they set up the registration in the auditorium when they have a whole school to use? As mentioned before, if this doesn't validate the need for SB2, I don't what will.

Next question, is where or what are they going to do, to accommodate this many people. I also hope it is scheduled on a Saturday, so even more can attend.

They are probably hoping less will attend.

[neckdweller]

As someone who likes to say that I write off my Moultonborough bill as a charitable donation on my taxes since I can't vote there, I would love to say this is hilarious except for the fact that a lot of people wasted their time last night. The Moultonborough Speaks explanation is pretty lame. They expected 800 people? I think I saw more Hub signs (pro and con) on my route up to the lake last weekend. They drastically underestimated the number of people that have strong feelings on both sides of this.

I'm pretty sure as I type this there's a group in town drafting a 5,000 seat stadium proposal to raise at the rescheduled town meeting. This will accommodate everyone for future town meetings. The stadium will be funded by local minor league teams in the area. Just like all those local swim clubs will fund the Hub.

[winni83]

Last night at 10:18 PM I received the following message from member breathe easy:
“Hey Winni83 – who are you? Stop hiding behind a pseudonym”.

To answer the question posed directly: It is none of your business. If Don thinks that any of my posts crossed some kind of line, he would delete them. Now why would you want to know who I am? Are you thinking about some kind of retaliation or pay back?

I really don’t care who breathe easy is and have no idea as to his or her identity. But some interesting facts. . Now I am no detective, but breathe easy’s avatar is a picture of a person’s lungs. Paul Punturieri, our town moderator, has a blog called Moultonborough Speaks, but he now only posts under that blog on Facebook. The about section on Moultonborough Speaks describes Paul Punturieri as a “Respiratory Care Practitioner”. Draw your own inferences.

I will post any additional private messages I receive.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by winni83

Last night at 10:18 PM I received the following message from member breathe easy:
“Hey Winni83 – who are you? Stop hiding behind a pseudonym”.

To answer the question posed directly: It is none of your business. If Don thinks that any of my posts crossed some kind of line, he would delete them. Now why would you want to know who I am? Are you thinking about some kind of retaliation or pay back?

I really don’t care who breathe easy is and have no idea as to his or her identity. But some interesting facts. . Now I am no detective, but breathe easy’s avatar is a picture of a person’s lungs. Paul Punturieri, our town moderator, has a blog called Moultonborough Speaks, but he now only posts under that blog on Facebook. The about section on Moultonborough Speaks describes Paul Punturieri as a “Respiratory Care Practitioner”. Draw your own inferences.

I will post any additional private messages I receive.

Paul P hid his name behind his blog for quite sometime, I recall! Tell him to pound sand.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

A friend of mine came up with an idea whereby voters, already signed in to vote last night, could go to town hall and cast their votes. Sounds simple….right? What could possibly go wrong? After mulling it over, my solution would be to allow those voters, already signed in, to go to the town clerk’s office during specific days and times, and complete the ballot, much the same way as an absentee ballot, and then all votes would be SEALED, not to be counted until town meeting day, under well supervised circumstances. This would avoid “irregularities “ in the count, if you get my drift. Legal feedback, anyone? I should amend that to say that anyone already registered to vote last night could forget my suggestion and just go to the newly scheduled town meeting, whenever that is.

[DickR]

After I got home from the aborted meeting, I sent some suggestions for the next attempt to have a meeting to the Town Administrator, via the town's website.

I suggested quadrupling the number of check-in tables, with a shorter range of alphabet letters for each. I also suggested moving the tables out of the auditorium, to alleviate the congestion there.

The long corridor adjacent to the auditorium entrance would be better and also be positioned better between the auditorium, cafeteria, and gymnasium, all of which may be needed to handle the large crowd expected. Better signs for the tables would help, placed where they could be seen from a distance down the corridor.

Finally, it would be useful to have people enter the building from more doors than just the one by the auditorium. Some of that was happening anyway, but the long line to get to the check-in tables inside the auditorium led to the long line out the nearby door and back up the driveway.

More complaints about last night's failure won't help. Let's be constructive and help the town's officials with good ideas to make things work more smoothly next time.

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by DickR

After I got home from the aborted meeting, I sent some suggestions for the next attempt to have a meeting to the Town Administrator, via the town's website.

The beest recommendation is to vote YES for SB2.
As stated above. ALL can vote at their leisure on voting day.

Problem solved.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

A friend of mine came up with an idea whereby voters, already signed in to vote last night, could go to town hall and cast their votes. Sounds simple….right? What could possibly go wrong? After mulling it over, my solution would be to allow those voters, already signed in, to go to the town clerk’s office during specific days and times, and complete the ballot, much the same way as an absentee ballot, and then all votes would be SEALED, not to be counted until town meeting day, under well supervised circumstances. This would avoid “irregularities “ in the count, if you get my drift. Legal feedback, anyone? I should amend that to say that anyone already registered to vote last night could forget my suggestion and just go to the newly scheduled town meeting, whenever that is.

Moultonborough would need to vote to adopt the SB2 standard before the format could be used.

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Moultonborough would need to vote to adopt the SB2 standard before the format could be used.

Yes. BUT this recreation circus is going to come back and back and back.

So for future debacles of voting - SB2 would solve current issue of delay.

[neckdweller]

I would imagine when the SB2 vote comes up at the rescheduled meeting someone will point out that last night's craziness wouldn't have happened if SB2 was in place.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by neckdweller

I would imagine when the SB2 vote comes up at the rescheduled meeting someone will point out that last night's craziness wouldn't have happened if SB2 was in place.

I don't believe this would be the case. I think for a hot item like this the same crowd would have happened SB2 or not, and if the venue had been able to accommodate all the people there would have been a lot of hollering and screaming when people realized their ability to debate and question was severely limited by SB2. I'm voting against SB2.

[winni83]

The video of the non meeting is up on Town Hall Streams, look at it beginning at about 29 minutes. Our Town Moderator basically threw the Fire Chief under the bus and put the blame on him for doing his duty. When in fact the reason that the meeting did not take place was lack of planning by the Town Moderator. Does anyone think that even if the capacity of the auditorium had been exceeded by a mere 100 people or so that there were plans in place to deal with that?

See:

https://townhallstreams.com/stream.p...id=51&id=52862

[longislander]

A friend of mine came up with an idea whereby voters, already signed in to vote last night, could go to town hall and cast their votes. Sounds simple….right? What could possibly go wrong?

At this time there is no ballot. The present non-SB2 absentee ballots were voted last Tuesday. It would only contain electing officials and zoning amendments, anyway. See Article 1 in the warrant (First Session of Annual Meeting (Official Ballot Voting)

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...r_04.20.23.pdf

RE: The May 11th town meeting registrations are now useless. The moderator:
oThe Article number will be announced, and the text will be presented in full.
o The Moderator will seek a person to move and second the consideration of the Article.
o The Article will be placed on the floor for debate and final vote.

I would imagine when the SB2 vote comes up at the rescheduled meeting someone will point out that last night's craziness wouldn't have happened if SB2 was in place.

It has already been pointed out, in jest, to the moderator, Town Administrator, and select board, and will probably be re-iterated at the re-scheduled meeting.

I don't believe this would be the case. I think for a hot item like this the same crowd would have happened SB2 or not, and if the venue had been able to accommodate all the people there would have been a lot of hollering and screaming when people realized their ability to debate and question was severely limited by SB2. I'm voting against SB2.

Reminding the voters "point out that last night's craziness" will probably happen since I am the the SB2 presenter of Article 3, the SB2 petition.

Under SB2 the "screaming and hollering" happens a month before voting on the Tuesday ballot, voting with privacy behind a curtain, and can vote 7:00am to 7:00pm. Make out a "cheat sheet" beforehand, after getting informed, and go into the voting booth and check off the spots.

Does anyone believe the voters didn't already know how they would vote! on The Hub!

Classically, there are always more voters on the Tuesday than at the second session town meeting. In addition to that, there are no absentee ballots at traditional town meeting.

The Nov. 2022 general election had 21% of the ballots cast by absentee. Why aren't they allowed to vote on all warrant articles, not just electing officials and zoning amendments?

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

Yes. BUT this recreation circus is going to come back and back and back.

So for future debacles of voting - SB2 would solve current issue of delay.

It is historically the case in NH for a proposal to come up again and again until it is passed. Sometimes attitudes change and it doesn't pass... but frugality is a thing of the past for now.

[Descant]

SB2 has been around now for ~30 years. In the early days there were many abuses and the rules have changed to resolve things. For example, you can amend an article at the deliberative session, but you are limited in the ability to change intent. You can't just insert "not" before "raise and appropriate. I see a lot of scheming underlying the questions and comments above. Mostly, these schemes have all been tried and been eliminated. Before you vote yes or no, have somebody from the Municipal Association or the AG's office give you a primer.

BTW, I believe it is up to the Selectmen to provide a place for the meeting and the moderator only runs the meeting. And the fire marshal has an obligation for safety. Each doing their job is not pointing fingers or placing blame.

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by Descant

BTW, I believe it is up to the Selectmen to provide a place for the meeting and the moderator only runs the meeting. And the fire marshal has an obligation for safety. Each doing their job is not pointing fingers or placing blame.

Good point. The buck stops at the selectmen.

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by ITD

I don't believe this would be the case. I think for a hot item like this the same crowd would have happened SB2 or not, and if the venue had been able to accommodate all the people there would have been a lot of hollering and screaming when people realized their ability to debate and question was severely limited by SB2. I'm voting against SB2.

Some are not informed as others have already posted.

Originally Posted by longislander

SB2 vs. Traditional Meeting

FOR SB2:
SB2: A Month to Research Warrant Discussions Before Voting.
SB2: All Warrant Articles Are Voted on Tuesday Ballot, not just electing
officials, zoning, and other required by statute.
All day voting. In and out in a little while. Not hours and hours waiting
to vote.
SB2: Absentee Ballots Include ALL Warrant Articles
Snowbirds, military, and other absentees can vote on all warrant articles.
SB2: All Voting is Secret, in curtained voting booth
Traditional meeting hand, card, or paper votes intimidate some voters.


AGAINST SB2:
Fewer Attendees at SB2 Deliberative Session
There should be! Many already know how they will vote.
SB2 Does Not Allow Debate of Warrant Articles
Not true! Yes, it does, at the deliberative session. Same as traditional.
SB2 Does Not Allow Amendments to Warrant Articles
Not true! Yes, It Does, at the deliberative session. Same as traditional.
Traditional Meeting Allows For More of a Social Event.
No, it doesn't. SB2 Deliberative Session social event can be the same.
SB2 Jeopardizes the Budget
Traditional imperils the budget more. SB2 has default budget or other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bw0sfN8QBU

Keep it togetheer.

[longislander]

SB2 has been around now for ~30 years. In the early days there were many abuses and the rules have changed to resolve things. For example, you can amend an article at the deliberative session, but you are limited in the ability to change intent.

Excerpts from my presentation that will be revised for whenever the meeting occurs. Facts don't change, however.

History
SB2 stands for Senate Bill 2. It became law in1995. The town had previously voted SB2, 4 times; 2004,
2007, 2009, and 2011, on the Tuesday ballot. Some voters probably had no clue what it was. In 2019, the
law changed with House Bill 415 changing SB2 adoption to town meeting, as we are doing tonight.
Legislation in 2000 made “SB2” the official name. This is the first time Moultonborough will be debating at a town meeting.

Amendments
The following excerpts are based on a 2019 NH Municipal Association article by Stephen C. Buckley,
Legal Services Counsel.
“The content of warrant articles is either prescribed by statute, or is governed by common law, and
statutory ground rules, especially as applied to articles that contain appropriations. An “illegal” warrant
article is one that cannot have any legal effect, even if town meeting approves it, usually because it
violates some provision in the law. It is “unenforceable”.
After the public hearings are over and the warrant is drafted, and posted, it is up to the moderator—with
the assistance of other town officials and the town attorney—to make sure that the town’s business is
accomplished fairly and efficiently.

Opinion of the Justices, No. 4600 Decided July 9, 1957.
"The subject matter of all business to be acted upon at the town meeting, shall be distinctly stated in the
warrant, and nothing done at any meeting . . . shall be valid unless the subject thereof is so stated."
More recently, in Grant v. Barrington, (2008), the Court described the purpose of RSA 39:2 in the context
of an (SB 2) town meeting:
“[t]he prohibition against changing the subject of a warrant article is to ensure that subjects that were not
noticed to voters, are not inserted into the articles at the deliberative session. This protects the voters who
decided not to attend the first session, from new subjects being addressed, about which they had no
notice, and therefore, did not have an opportunity to consider, when deciding, whether they were
interested in attending the deliberative session.”

This is described as the “stay-at-home test”.

The court also stated that the statutes did not warrant that the court decide what is "intent".

The role of the SB2 first session (town meeting/deliberative session) is to decide the final form of the Tuesday ballot questions.

SB2 is not a change in government. It only changes who can vote, when we vote, and how we vote.
Towns may adopt either March, April, or May town meeting.

The only difference between SB2 and Traditional town meeeting is:
who can vote, when we vote, and how we vote, and a default budget.

SB2:
All registered voters, especially absentees, can vote on all warrant articles (a biggie!)
Vote on all warrant articles on the Tuesday ballot (another biggie)
Vote on one ballot, after a month to research and decide (who is Bull S*ing) from 7am to 7pm, in privacy, and then do your thing!

Bring Moultonborough into the 21st century. Vote yes on Article 3 of the 2023 warrant.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Descant

SB2 has been around now for ~30 years. In the early days there were many abuses and the rules have changed to resolve things. For example, you can amend an article at the deliberative session, but you are limited in the ability to change intent. You can't just insert "not" before "raise and appropriate. I see a lot of scheming underlying the questions and comments above. Mostly, these schemes have all been tried and been eliminated. Before you vote yes or no, have somebody from the Municipal Association or the AG's office give you a primer.

BTW, I believe it is up to the Selectmen to provide a place for the meeting and the moderator only runs the meeting. And the fire marshal has an obligation for safety. Each doing their job is not pointing fingers or placing blame.

Does Moultonborough have a place with a big enough capacity to handle that large a turnout?
One of the reasons for SB2 in our town was due to the growing residential population and the large turnouts.

[fatlazyless]

So, what is the forum, smart-money prediction on the soon-to-be-happening Moultonborough town warrant vote on this 15-million dollar "Hub" indoor recreation facility that includes an indoor heated 25-meter swimming pool?

It needs a 60% vote to make it actually happen which seems like a high hurdle what with all the opposition expressed on this forum?

Is there an equally strong faction of Moultonborough voters out there who's voice is not really present on this forum and who could that be? .....

Is it the Moultonborough public school system, grades K-12, and their parents, local town supporters, and other Moultonborough residents who could reach a 60% voting result?

[John Mercier]

I'm biased toward no.

[Wishbone]

From what I saw and heard at the aborted town meeting, I would be surprised if they broke 50% being for it.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Does Moultonborough have a place with a big enough capacity to handle that large a turnout?
One of the reasons for SB2 in our town was due to the growing residential population and the large turnouts.

We did one once with ~4500 people (yes, the first attempt was cancelled and rescheduled). Three gymnasia with big screen TV's assistant moderators and microphones. Even easier to do now. There must be a gym and a couple of churches suitable in almost any town. Might put a bit of a squeeze on the General Gov't section of the budget.

[longislander]

The moderator's Facebook page:

"The largest crowd we ever had at town meeting prior to tonight was in 2019 when we had around 650 people check in. The expected attendance tonight was thought to be closer to 800 which with the use of the lobby and the aisles without blocking the exit doors was just enough to safely accommodate that number.
The moderator, selectmen, town clerk, town administrator, facilities, public works, school personnel and many town employees all work together to plan and conduct these meetings. Decisions are not made without a great deal of thought and effort, but at the end of the day the buck stops with us. This was an unfortunate situation, and we will do the best we can to avoid a recurrence.
Hindsight is always 20-20, but unfortunately it doesn't change the outcome. It is also not particularly helpful to be unnecessarily critical of people who are essentially volunteers working on your behalf. We are human and not omniscient."

During Covid, the auditorium, cafeteria, and gym were utiized at the school that is the regular town meeting place, and accomodated a large turnout. I believe the Sandwich fairgrounds was utilized for a school district annual meeting once as well.

The Tuesday voting day always has a higher turnout than "Town meeting" day. It is doubfull that anywhere near 2,000 ever showed up for either. The Nov. 2022 General election had 3,202, but that is not a town meeting; note the 21% of voters were absentee voters.

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...s_11082022.pdf

Note in moderator's comment the 2019 that 650 checked in. and then checkout the Voters Cast - 1366 on Tuesday voters prior.

Look up the turnout for the Tuesday vote by year here; right at the top of the first page of each year:

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/tow...eeting-minutes

[whalebackpoint'r]

I'm wondering what it will cost each month just to heat the water for the pools?

[John Mercier]

Cost of heating is a variable in NH... regardless of what is being heated.

Once a large body of water is heated though... it will lose and gain heat slowly.
The heat lost would be to the space around the pool, and any part of the building that is open to convection.

So probably not much difference than the same space without the pool.
Relative to the size of the overall building being conceived.

The gym in downtown Laconia... and the pool at the Gunstock Mountain Inn... have variables; but that would be to the GMI having a huge glass wall (low insulation) adjacent to the pool.

So design along with fuel type and cost are all variables.

[Cobalt 12]

Will (We) as in non residents of Moultonborough have access to swim in the pool and enjoy the building? Sure hope so, sounds like a beautiful facility.

[ACME on the Broads]

Cobalt 12, I see you're a new (3/2023) member....we welcome you.

Great news, especially if you're speaking about beauty; Moultonborough's non residents and residents alike can swim in one of the most beautiful lakes country wide, Lake Winnipesaukee has over 59.7 miles of shorefront and 15.4 square miles of water in Moultonborough alone which also happens to be the largest lakefront community in the Lakes Region.

Hard to justify a "$15,000,000.00 beautiful facility," while within the community, we can all enjoy this natural treasure. It features easy access 24/7/365 to all residents and non residents.

[fatlazyless]

Today is May 15 and the Lake Winnipesaukee water temperature at the surface is about 58-60 degrees, right now, too cold for swimming. Lake Winnipesaukee surface water warms up to 70-degrees by about July 1, gets up to 78 on August 1, and descends trough the month of September from 72 back down to 60-degrees on September 30.

So's a huge issue with swimming in Lake Winnipesaukee all year around is that it is too danged cold for swimming like from September 15 through to June 15, it is too cold to swim.

[tbonies]

Originally Posted by ACME on the Broads

Cobalt 12, I see you're a new (3/2023) member....we welcome you.

Great news, especially if you're speaking about beauty; Moultonborough's non residents and residents alike can swim in one of the most beautiful lakes country wide, Lake Winnipesaukee has over 59.7 miles of shorefront and 15.4 square miles of water in Moultonborough alone which also happens to be the largest lakefront community in the Lakes Region.

Hard to justify a "$15,000,000.00 beautiful facility," while within the community, we can all enjoy this natural treasure. It features easy access 24/7/365 to all residents and non residents.

Cobalt - Welcome to the Forum. As always, there are many ways to view things. None are wrong and deserve respect. However, swimming in our natural treasure can be a tad chilly for the 8 months of Oct - May. Probably why many people (most not on this forum) would like access to a year round pool. There can be a lot of numbers thrown around but best I can tell, the annual cost to a taxpayer is about $350-400/$1 Mil of Assessed Property for 15 years to support financing of the facility and about $100/$1 Mil of Assessed Property to pay for maintaining the facility, assuming the town can't claw back usage revenues for non town users of the facility, which are probably substantial. Each taxpayer can gauge for themselves the value of both paying and how much time they invest on this chatter board debating it.

[Lakegeezer]

The Town meeting is rescheduled for Thursday, June 1 at 6PM.

[longislander]

Present tax rate is $4.78/$1,000 of assessment of which $1.25/$1,000 is municipal, only. County, Local Ed. , and State Ed. comprise the other three parts of total town tax
Then, depending on which year of a 15 or 20 or 30 year bond the increase will add to municipal.
The original bond used by the Hub proponents was a 20 year level principal bond at 5.5% interest. The fiscal year estimated tax rate increase ranged from .33 to .17 over the 20 years decreasing accordingly. The first year was .08 but the first year was interest only, and did not include the $775,000 annual principal payments. Total 20 annual payments would be $24,412,500.

Present tax rate is $4.78/$1,000 or $.00478 = annual tax
$200,000 x $.00478 = $956
$300,000 x $.00478 = $1,440
$500,000 x $.00478 = $2,390
$1,000,000 x $.00478 = $4,780

Then,
Using .25 as an increase:
$4.78/$1,000 + $.25/$1,000 = $5.03/$1,000 or $.00503

Assessment x Municipal tax rate = tax
$200,000 x $.00503 = $1,006
$300,000 x $.00503 = $1,509
$500,000 x $.00503 = $2,515
$1,000,0000 x $.00503 = $5,030

Assessment; new rate minus present rate = increase
$200,000 ; $1,006 minus $956 = $50 tax increase for that year
$300,000 ; $1,509 minus $1,440 = $69 tax increase for that year
$500,000; $2,515 minus $2,390 = $125 tax increase for that year
$1,000,000; $5,030 minus $4,780 = $250 tax increase for that year

Tax bills sent out semi annually.

Operating cost are not fixed, as is the bond. Extreme caution for operating cost.

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by tbonies

Cobalt - Welcome to the Forum. As always, there are many ways to view things. None are wrong and deserve respect. However, swimming in our natural treasure can be a tad chilly for the 8 months of Oct - May. Probably why many people (most not on this forum) would like access to a year round pool. There can be a lot of numbers thrown around but best I can tell, the annual cost to a taxpayer is about $350-400/$1 Mil of Assessed Property for 15 years to support financing of the facility and about $100/$1 Mil of Assessed Property to pay for maintaining the facility, assuming the town can't claw back usage revenues for non town users of the facility, which are probably substantial. Each taxpayer can gauge for themselves the value of both paying and how much time they invest on this chatter board debating it.

No town should be in the recreation business of this magnitude.

Why hasn't a private for profict company presented a proposal ????

The elephant in the room is placing its nose inside your wallet or pocketbook.

[John Mercier]

Meredith town docks have to be in the vicinity of that level.

And none of the beach bathhouses are really cheap to build.

[Wishbone]

I looked on line, and there are several companies that this is their core business. I wonder if any of the ones who signed the document to put this on the ballot even contacted any one of these companies. If it is such a great need for the town, why wouldn't they fight to put a facility in Moultonborough??

[whalebackpoint'r]

So, I think all the proponents should form a company, pool their resources and purchase the property in question, build it and run it as a business, AND pay the real estate taxes to the town. A win-win-win for all!

[tis]

Originally Posted by whalebackpoint'r

So, I think all the proponents should form a company, pool their resources and purchase the property in question, build it and run it as a business, AND pay the real estate taxes to the town. A win-win-win for all!

I think that's a great idea.

[John Mercier]

The reason that government acts is because private business declines.

Since it only take 25 registered voters to petition it to town meeting vote, I expect that it will keep coming up.
That is unless it reaches the 60% threshold... after that they wouldn't need another vote.

They have bigger issues in my opinion, but this seems to be what the residents are focused on.

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The reason that government acts is because private business declines.

Since it only take 25 registered voters to petition it to town meeting vote, I expect that it will keep coming up.
That is unless it reaches the 60% threshold... after that they wouldn't need another vote.

They have bigger issues in my opinion, but this seems to be what the residents are focused on.

Because it's become harder and harder for businesses to compete with government, only government can afford it.

[fatlazyless]

Waterville Valley is home to the www.wmacwv.com, a private business. It has an indoor 24-meter pool, heated to 82-degrees, and an outdoor, June thru October, 30-meter pool, heated to about 72-degrees.

For $600/year you can get an off-peak membership that excludes Saturdays, Sundays till 4-pm, Christmas week, MLK weekend, and the February Massachusetts school vacation week.

It has two large indoor hot tubs, heated to 104-degrees.

Today, May 16, 2023, the surface water temperature in Lake Winnipesaukee is 58 to 60 degrees depending where it gets measured on different areas in the big lake. Lake Winnipesaukee water surface temperature usually gets up to 70-degrees not until June 28.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

Because it's become harder and harder for businesses to compete with government, only government can afford it.

Is there a business in Moultonborough already providing these services?

[fatlazyless]

Suggest you take a look at www.thehubmoultonborough.com to see it's a community center that includes a 25-meter indoor swim pool, a multi-purpose gym large enough for two or three pickleball courts, a game room with ping-pong, pool, and table hockey, an adult social room, a large function hall and a kitchen.

Teaching swimming to very young children, school age children, and adults as well as water exercise classes would be happening all year 'round.

While nearby Lake Winnipesaukee and the Moultonborough Town Beach are a beautiful scenic lake location, the big lake water temps is 70-76 degrees warm, only from June 15 to September 15. For the the other nine months, Sept 15 to June 15, the big lake is way too cold for swimming and in-the-water activity.

The new Moultonborough Hub will have a 25-meter warm water indoor pool, good for swim lessons, and water exercise classes like Splash 'n Burn lead by an instructor all twelve months of the year.

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Is there a business in Moultonborough already providing these services?

I didn't say that. I am saying I think it would be very hard for a private entity to invest 16 million dollars in such a business and operate it every year and be successful -in Moultonborough anyway, or any other area small town.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

I didn't say that. I am saying I think it would be very hard for a private entity to invest 16 million dollars in such a business and operate it every year and be successful -in Moultonborough anyway, or any other area small town.

That is true. That is what is meant by government acts because private business declines.

[tummyman]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

That is true. That is what is meant by government acts because private business declines.

When government acts, it frequently costs taxpayers huge sums because government has no idea how to manage things properly. Businesses don't act because they cannot rationalize the benefits of acting. Examples are everywhere. Frankly I would prefer government NOT act and it will save me money, whether it is in Wash., DC or Moultonborough !!! Waste is government's middle name !

[John Mercier]

You wouldn't have any roads.

That would fix a lot of problems pretty quickly.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

You wouldn't have any roads. ...

An argument in the absurd.

There are obviously some essential services that government must provide. Road management, fire and police protection, etc. A swimming pool and gym are NOT essential services.

Also note that even within the essential services, things like roads, the construction is done by private companies. That is because government is spectacularly BAD at providing business services, especially when dealing with costs, management, quality control, honesty and accountability, etc. Further, WHEN have you seen government projections of cost be accurate? Actual costs greatly exceed government estimates, either due to incompetence or dishonestly. Generally, the less the government gets involved with issues, the better the outcome. Private companies that can't manage their business properly go out of business. Government just stumbles on to make another mess; there is low/no accountability.

Also note that voters that think they can vote themselves whatever they want are foolish. The economic constraints on what a community can afford are not subject to a vote. The unique conditions of each community determine its ability to generate income and money spent on one thing preclude it being spent on something else. It's not unlike the household where the husband wants a new BMW, the wife a new house, the child a pony, and none of those things are affordable or practical for their finances. They might find a bank that will loan them money but they will struggle to pay their bills and other, more essential things that come up may not be possible to do.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by jeffk

An argument in the absurd.

There are obviously some essential services that government must provide. Road management, fire and police protection, etc. A swimming pool and gym are NOT essential services.

Also note that even within the essential services, things like roads, the construction is done by private companies. That is because government is spectacularly BAD at providing business services, especially when dealing with costs, management, quality control, honesty and accountability, etc. Further, WHEN have you seen government projections of cost be accurate? Actual costs greatly exceed government estimates, either due to incompetence or dishonestly. Generally, the less the government gets involved with issues, the better the outcome. Private companies that can't manage their business properly go out of business. Government just stumbles on to make another mess; there is low/no accountability.

Also note that voters that think they can vote themselves whatever they want are foolish. The economic constraints on what a community can afford are not subject to a vote. The unique conditions of each community determine its ability to generate income and money spent on one thing preclude it being spent on something else. It's not unlike the household where the husband wants a new BMW, the wife a new house, the child a pony, and none of those things are affordable or practical for their finances. They might find a bank that will loan them money but they will struggle to pay their bills and other, more essential things that come up may not be possible to do.

While I agree that government isn't always efficient, I see that as the price for equality.

As history has shown—through firefighting and policing organizations, education, information access, policy, etc.—private industry will always cater to those with money and disregard those without.

So, there is certainly a case to be made for establishments that benefit the public to be instituted and managed by the government, but the decision always pivots on collective value vs. cost.

It is hard for me to see a collective value to the whole of Moultonborough taxpayers, a sizable portion of which won't even be in the area half the year.

In fact, knowing how my local Y works in regards to pool access—which is barely available after local sports teams, other organizations, and restricted (cleaning/maintenance) times—I'm still not even sure what this place would be good for.

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by jeffk

A swimming pool and gym are NOT essential services.

From the Brookline, Mass. town swimming pool ...... www.brooklinerec.com/150/Kirrane-Aquatic-Center ..... a list of fees which people PAY for swim lessons, splash 'n burn water exercise class, and pool use/laps practice.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

From the Brookline, Mass. town swimming pool ...... www.brooklinerec.com/150/Kirrane-Aquatic-Center ..... a list of fees which people PAY for swim lessons, splash 'n burn water exercise class, and pool use/laps practice.

The people of Brookline's choices doesn't make them ESSENTIAL services.

Frankly, I don't care if the town could make a lot of money by providing a pool and gym and charging money for it. There are thousands of things that people need/want/crave and, the for the vast majority of it, government should have no role in providing it.

Government should be a last resort provider, when other suppliers of the service are not possible/practical. Then the service WILL be provided, probably overpriced, with less quality, and a mismatch in the features but at least an essential service is available.

[tis]

Originally Posted by jeffk

The people of Brookline's choices doesn't make them ESSENTIAL services.

Frankly, I don't care if the town could make a lot of money by providing a pool and gym and charging money for it. There are thousands of things that people need/want/crave and, the for the vast majority of it, government should have no role in providing it.

Government should be a last resort provider, when other suppliers of the service are not possible/practical. Then the service WILL be provided, probably overpriced, with less quality, and a mismatch in the features but at least an essential service is available.

Government used to be about needs not wants-at least in our small towns.

[whalebackpoint'r]

My point exactly. The key here is 'essential services'. In this live free or die state especially, taxpayers who will never use this service would prefer not to be forced into paying for it and its upkeep. If you want less government control over your money, don't vote for more of it.