Winni Hobo Railroad

tis · 06-14-2023, 04:13 PM

This is a little bit off topic but it's about the railroad so hope it's ok. All these posts made me wonder what is happening in Alton Bay where the railroad right of way was. There was a dispute as to whether the railroad has a right to take the land back. Anybody heard any more? Is it waiting on legal?

Woodsy · 06-14-2023, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tis

This is a little bit off topic but it's about the railroad so hope it's ok. All these posts made me wonder what is happening in Alton Bay where the railroad right of way was. There was a dispute as to whether the railroad has a right to take the land back. Anybody heard any more? Is it waiting on legal?

I think the issue with Alton is not with the railroad... those tracks are long gone and replacing them would be extremely expensive. However the right of way remains and belongs to the State of NH. Now the fight begins with all those people who over the passage of time encroached on the ROW. Especially if the rail trail people are eyeing it....

Woodsy

tis · 06-14-2023, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

I think the issue with Alton is not with the railroad... those tracks are long gone and replacing them would be extremely expensive. However the right of way remains and belongs to the State of NH. Now the fight begins with all those people who over the passage of time encroached on the ROW. Especially if the rail trail people are eyeing it....

Woodsy

I think you are right, I think it is the State. Do you know the status?

Trail Goer · 06-15-2023, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

I think the issue with Alton is not with the railroad... those tracks are long gone and replacing them would be extremely expensive. However the right of way remains and belongs to the State of NH. Now the fight begins with all those people who over the passage of time encroached on the ROW. Especially if the rail trail people are eyeing it....

Woodsy

It depends on how the charter for the railroad was written, some right of ways are owned outright by the railroad, others are just easements. Now, I have no proof in front of me, so take it for what it's worth but most of the rail lines in NH were owned or are still owned by the railroads. What's the difference, well when a railroad petitions to abandon a rail line, if they own the property, they will continue to own it after abandonment but if it's just and easement, the easement disappears since its purpose is removed and the property reverts back to the previous landowners. In the case of Alton, that particular section was abandoned in the 1920 but it was railroad property, not an easement, the railroad could have retained ownership for years after until someone offered to buy it, in this case it was the state. The question is where the property lines existed for the railroad, a tax map from the late 1800's or early 1900's will tell you and that's the baseline to work off of, because clearly the newer tax maps were incorrect. It is quite possible the railroad owned right to the water's edge in some areas and if the state bought up the property, then it belongs to the state. It sounds like easements were granted by the railroad for homeowners to cross the tracks to access the lake and when the railroad was abandoned, someone somewhere thought the land reverted to the owners, but it never did. So, over the course of time, and unchecked error has snowballed into a major issue of people thinking they owned land along the lake and were paying taxes on, It's a big mess and a major headache for all involved.

BroadHopper · 08-05-2023, 08:28 AM

Back in the 80s, a big push was to extend the sewer lines to Alton to preserve the lake's cleanliness. The project ran out of money and ended up near Dinsmoor Point Road in Gilford. It is not over. It is still open and will continue to Alton in the future.

The project uses the old Lake Shore Railroad bed. Some folks had to move existing structures off the old bed. There weren't many as Gilford knows the state still has a right of way and prevents owners from building on it. Gilford still continues to prevent permanent structures on the right of way.
As for Alton, well I guess, that will be a fine mess along Rte. 11.

There are talks of using Biden's infrastructure bill to finish the project.

ITD · 08-05-2023, 03:22 PM

The railroad looked like it was running today.

Trail Goer · 08-13-2023, 11:45 PM

Last I looked they are operating 4 days a week (Thursday - Sunday) with very limited departures on those days.
I'm sure next year will be either back to normal or drastically different with the new owner.

fatlazyless · 08-14-2023, 07:02 AM

Clark's Bears done hit a new Unobtainium mine deep in them their woods along the Pemi River, and will be choo-chooing hopper freight cars loaded with Unobtainium down to that Portsmouth sea port.

With the Wolfman driving the steam locomotive, and the black bears riding shotgun Unobtanium security, it will be a very busy freight train ....... choo-choo-choo ..... the Unobtainium Express ...... here it come!

jetskier · 08-22-2023, 03:10 PM

https://www.railwayage.com/freight/s...enic-railroad/

Outdoorsman · 06-14-2023, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tis

This is a little bit off topic but it's about the railroad so hope it's ok. All these posts made me wonder what is happening in Alton Bay where the railroad right of way was. There was a dispute as to whether the railroad has a right to take the land back. Anybody heard any more? Is it waiting on legal?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

I think the issue with Alton is not with the railroad... those tracks are long gone and replacing them would be extremely expensive. However the right of way remains and belongs to the State of NH. Now the fight begins with all those people who over the passage of time encroached on the ROW. Especially if the rail trail people are eyeing it....

Woodsy

I have to wonder how much property was taken by Eminent Domain back then.

ROW should revert back to the (former or) current land owner rather than being a keepsake for the State. After-all, it was taken for a specific purpose.

John Mercier · 06-14-2023, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outdoorsman

I have to wonder how much property was taken by Eminent Domain back then.

ROW should revert back to the (former or) current land owner rather than being a keepsake for the State. After-all, it was taken for a specific purpose.

The ''former'' land owner would be paid for it under eminent domain. And the current land owner would be the State.
The purpose to keep the corridor open for future transportation options.

Woodsy · 06-14-2023, 10:08 PM

Tis...

I do not know the status. However, I do not think you can sue the State for Adverse Possession. So, if people encroached on the State RR ROW, they are probably out of luck.

Outdoorsman,

The State purchased the rail lines when the (then) current owner filed for abandonment. Then leased most of them out. If there was any "Eminent Domain" it happened back in the 1800's when the railroads were originally built. The property owners would have been duly compensated.

https://www.nh.gov/dot/org/aerorailt...ansit/rail.htm

Woodsy

tis · 06-15-2023, 05:22 AM

I wonder if there are any statistics on if a truly fair price is paid in an eminent domain situation. Or do people have to give their land up for a pittance?

I know there were a couple of people in this group who were in involved. I hope they update us.

John Mercier · 06-15-2023, 09:54 AM

It is by market rate.

tis · 06-15-2023, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Mercier

It is by market rate.

How is market rate determined? It is supposed to be based on highest and best use. I know from personal experience we were offered one tenth of what an appraiser valued our land at.

fatlazyless · 06-15-2023, 05:16 PM

Here's something that may be of interest ....... go to www.railstotrails.org ..... 2/3-way down the page, enter your zip code at "Find Your Trail Experience" to see the three rail trails closest to you. You could be surprised to find a rail trail, right here, in New Hampshire that you were unaware.

John Mercier · 06-15-2023, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tis

How is market rate determined? It is supposed to be based on highest and best use. I know from personal experience we were offered one tenth of what an appraiser valued our land at.

It is done by appraisal much the same as getting a bank appraisal... or if up-to-date even a property tax appraisal.

Trail Goer · 08-01-2023, 09:02 AM

Rumor mill - I guess the Hobo & Winnipesaukee Scenic railroads are for sale, and it explains some of the reasons for this year's odd ball scheduling for both railroads. It appears a buyer is already under agreement for both and currently going through the approval process.

Patofnaud · 08-01-2023, 11:02 AM

Thanks TG, good to know.

I know that the rails are still maintained from Lakeport up to Plymouth as the Hobo RR does run up to Common Man during the fall. I see the yellow rail maintenance pickup about once a week pass by.

Trail Goer · 08-04-2023, 09:44 AM

They actually lease and maintain the line down to Lochmere (Silver Lake Rd). South of that, and down into Concord, is leased to the New England Southern Railroad.

John Mercier · 08-04-2023, 11:54 AM

Is that for the rail bikes?
I don't think the train itself has travelled any further than Lakeport for awhile now.

Trail Goer · 08-04-2023, 10:07 PM

The railbikes are part of the services offered by the railroad but trains still operate between Lochmere and Lakeport and just this week they sent three privately owned passenger cars down that had been stored up in Lincoln, NH for the past 20+ years. I saw them heading down towards Manchester and we're on the end of a long freight train.

08-05-2023, 08:28 AM	#5
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,615 Thanks: 3,245 Thanked 1,115 Times in 801 Posts	Winnipesakee Watershed Project. Back in the 80s, a big push was to extend the sewer lines to Alton to preserve the lake's cleanliness. The project ran out of money and ended up near Dinsmoor Point Road in Gilford. It is not over. It is still open and will continue to Alton in the future. The project uses the old Lake Shore Railroad bed. Some folks had to move existing structures off the old bed. There weren't many as Gilford knows the state still has a right of way and prevents owners from building on it. Gilford still continues to prevent permanent structures on the right of way. As for Alton, well I guess, that will be a fine mess along Rte. 11. There are talks of using Biden's infrastructure bill to finish the project. __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

08-14-2023, 07:02 AM	#8
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,920 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 306 Thanked 1,055 Times in 768 Posts	... new Unobtainium Express Clark's Bears done hit a new Unobtainium mine deep in them their woods along the Pemi River, and will be choo-chooing hopper freight cars loaded with Unobtainium down to that Portsmouth sea port. With the Wolfman driving the steam locomotive, and the black bears riding shotgun Unobtanium security, it will be a very busy freight train ....... choo-choo-choo ..... the Unobtainium Express ...... here it come! __________________ .... Banned for life from local thrift store!

08-22-2023, 03:10 PM	#9
jetskier Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Reading, MA and South Down Shores Posts: 855 Thanks: 58 Thanked 183 Times in 114 Posts	Hobo railroad and Winnipesakee Scenic Railroad sold https://www.railwayage.com/freight/s...enic-railroad/

06-14-2023, 10:08 PM	#12
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,968 Thanks: 80 Thanked 980 Times in 440 Posts	Tis... I do not know the status. However, I do not think you can sue the State for Adverse Possession. So, if people encroached on the State RR ROW, they are probably out of luck. Outdoorsman, The State purchased the rail lines when the (then) current owner filed for abandonment. Then leased most of them out. If there was any "Eminent Domain" it happened back in the 1800's when the railroads were originally built. The property owners would have been duly compensated. https://www.nh.gov/dot/org/aerorailt...ansit/rail.htm Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

06-15-2023, 05:16 PM	#16
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,920 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 306 Thanked 1,055 Times in 768 Posts	..... a NH rail trail near you? Here's something that may be of interest ....... go to www.railstotrails.org ..... 2/3-way down the page, enter your zip code at "Find Your Trail Experience" to see the three rail trails closest to you. You could be surprised to find a rail trail, right here, in New Hampshire that you were unaware. __________________ .... Banned for life from local thrift store!

06-14-2023, 04:13 PM	#1
tis Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,834 Thanks: 764 Thanked 1,474 Times in 1,029 Posts	This is a little bit off topic but it's about the railroad so hope it's ok. All these posts made me wonder what is happening in Alton Bay where the railroad right of way was. There was a dispute as to whether the railroad has a right to take the land back. Anybody heard any more? Is it waiting on legal?

08-05-2023, 03:22 PM	#6
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,941 Thanks: 481 Thanked 699 Times in 390 Posts	The railroad looked like it was running today.

08-13-2023, 11:45 PM	#7
Trail Goer Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: New Durham Posts: 183 Thanks: 126 Thanked 99 Times in 60 Posts	Last I looked they are operating 4 days a week (Thursday - Sunday) with very limited departures on those days. I'm sure next year will be either back to normal or drastically different with the new owner.

06-15-2023, 05:22 AM	#13
tis Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,834 Thanks: 764 Thanked 1,474 Times in 1,029 Posts	I wonder if there are any statistics on if a truly fair price is paid in an eminent domain situation. Or do people have to give their land up for a pittance? I know there were a couple of people in this group who were in involved. I hope they update us.

06-15-2023, 09:54 AM	#14
John Mercier Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 3,562 Thanks: 3 Thanked 634 Times in 521 Posts	It is by market rate.

08-01-2023, 09:02 AM	#18
Trail Goer Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: New Durham Posts: 183 Thanks: 126 Thanked 99 Times in 60 Posts	Rumor mill - I guess the Hobo & Winnipesaukee Scenic railroads are for sale, and it explains some of the reasons for this year's odd ball scheduling for both railroads. It appears a buyer is already under agreement for both and currently going through the approval process.

08-01-2023, 11:02 AM	#19
Patofnaud Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Tilton/Paugus Bay Posts: 240 Thanks: 13 Thanked 64 Times in 45 Posts	Thanks TG, good to know. I know that the rails are still maintained from Lakeport up to Plymouth as the Hobo RR does run up to Common Man during the fall. I see the yellow rail maintenance pickup about once a week pass by.

08-04-2023, 09:44 AM	#20
Trail Goer Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: New Durham Posts: 183 Thanks: 126 Thanked 99 Times in 60 Posts	They actually lease and maintain the line down to Lochmere (Silver Lake Rd). South of that, and down into Concord, is leased to the New England Southern Railroad.

08-04-2023, 11:54 AM	#21
John Mercier Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 3,562 Thanks: 3 Thanked 634 Times in 521 Posts	Is that for the rail bikes? I don't think the train itself has travelled any further than Lakeport for awhile now.

08-04-2023, 10:07 PM	#22
Trail Goer Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: New Durham Posts: 183 Thanks: 126 Thanked 99 Times in 60 Posts	The railbikes are part of the services offered by the railroad but trains still operate between Lochmere and Lakeport and just this week they sent three privately owned passenger cars down that had been stored up in Lincoln, NH for the past 20+ years. I saw them heading down towards Manchester and we're on the end of a long freight train.