Moultonborough Taxes

[thinkxingu]

Though my tax bill is very small compared to most here, I was also surprised at its increase.

That being said, costs have gone up on everything the last couple years, so it makes sense that spending and taxes would as well.

I guess I'm mostly weirded out by how it happened—with a really low rate for two bills and not much communication about whether that was real or not.

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[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Though my tax bill is very small compared to most here, I was also surprised at its increase.

That being said, costs have gone up on everything the last couple years, so it makes sense that spending and taxes would as well.

I guess I'm mostly weirded out by how it happened—with a really low rate for two bills and not much communication about whether that was real or not.

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Don't be weirded out by it, it is the New Hampshire way. When the state runs out of funding they know where they can get more money and they always do. The way the state funds education is at the top of the list for Horrible ideas. While great in theory to take from wealthier communities and give to poorer ones, the issue is that the monies aren't tied to education...

I am also concerned at all the work being done on the highways in NH, and the fact that the state hasn't come around to the convention of exit numbers being associated with mile marker numbers, as all other states of done.. This was a mandate and likely means money to keep up the interstate system in NH from the federal government is not happening.

At the end of the day, I was not surprised to see an increase.... I knew last year was to good to be true. It is the amount of increase that I am seeing that is alarming. I have seen this before, and for similar reasons the state got themselves into a funding pickle, and hiked everyones property tax to get through it. Then slowly the tax bills decreased to get people over it. We will likely see the same thing here again.

NH's tax scheme continues to run amuck....

[tummyman]

Saw last nights Moultonborough School Board meeting where they are advocating for some $23 MILLION of capital improvements to both school buildings that was just recently disclosed a few weeks ago. SURPRISE!!!! This is 44% more cost than what was proposed for the Community Center last year. They want to put it on the warrant for the upcoming School Meeting in March. For those who are concerned with property taxes, you need to pay attention to what is going on, as this may well hit tax bills over the next 20 years.

[phoenix]

and the number of students keeps dropping. maybe time to merger with interlakes for high school

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Don't be weirded out by it, it is the New Hampshire way. When the state runs out of funding they know where they can get more money and they always do. The way the state funds education is at the top of the list for Horrible ideas. While great in theory to take from wealthier communities and give to poorer ones, the issue is that the monies aren't tied to education...

I am also concerned at all the work being done on the highways in NH, and the fact that the state hasn't come around to the convention of exit numbers being associated with mile marker numbers, as all other states of done.. This was a mandate and likely means money to keep up the interstate system in NH from the federal government is not happening.

At the end of the day, I was not surprised to see an increase.... I knew last year was to good to be true. It is the amount of increase that I am seeing that is alarming. I have seen this before, and for similar reasons the state got themselves into a funding pickle, and hiked everyones property tax to get through it. Then slowly the tax bills decreased to get people over it. We will likely see the same thing here again.

NH's tax scheme continues to run amuck....

The State doesn't take from wealthier communities and give it to the poorer ones. No shifting of the State Education Tax has occurred since 2011.

Also, the State didn't hike your property tax.

[phoenix]

real reason for huge increase vs last year was the use of two large one-time credits last year . compared to 2022 my increased taxes were about 20% so large but being on the water my assessments went up big time

[John Mercier]

To look past the credits that caused last years rates to be below normal, maybe a look back.

But I don't think there is any escaping the the Lakes Region is a high demand area for many retirees to at least own a summer home in.

[longislander]

5.50 is the second lowest tax rate in 35 years, last year's 4.78 the lowest, with probably the highest assessments ever. A million$ + was returned to the taxpayers lowering that rate last year.

Year total Muni. County State Ed. Local ed.
2023 $5.70 $1.86 $0.88 $1.19 $1.77
2022 $4.78 $1.25 $0.80 $0.97 $1.76
2021 $6.98 $2.33 $1.01 $1.67 $1.97
2020 $7.13 $2.11 $1.15 $1.78 $2.09
2019 $7.15 $2.18 $1.10 $1.96 $1.91
2018 $7.72 $2.44 $1.23 $2.10 $1.95
2017 $8.22 $2.46 $1.35 $2.29 $2.12
2016 $8.74 $2.77 $1.43 $2.28 $2.26
2015 $9.01 $2.85 $1.42 $2.54 $2.20
2014 $8.86 $2.85 $1.22 $2.53 $2.26
2013 $8.69 $2.77 $1.13 $2.66 $2.13
2012 $8.56 $2.73 $1.11 $2.52 $2.20
2011 $8.33 $2.77 $1.06 $1.97 $2.53
2010 $8.12 $2.63 $1.05 $2.32 $2.12
2009 $7.70 $2.22 $1.03 $2.31 $2.14
2008 $7.66 $2.32 $0.97 $2.21 $2.16
2007 $6.99 $2.07 $0.79 $2.01 $2.12
2006 $6.71 $1.89 $0.75 $2.34 $1.73
2005 $6.79 $2.05 $0.77 $2.58 $1.39
2004 $7.99 $1.66 $0.78 $2.87 $2.68
2003 $12.18 $2.35 $1.14 $5.15 $3.54
2002 $12.11 $2.33 $0.89 $5.55 $3.34
2001 $10.06 $1.99 $0.74 $4.63 $2.70
2000 $9.55 $1.89 $0.61 $4.69 $2.36
1999 $14.58 $2.72 $0.92 $3.80 $7.14
1998 $10.24 $2.92 $0.94 $6.38
1997 $9.69 $2.66 $0.94 $6.09
1996 $9.24 $2.57 $0.90 $5.77
1995 $10.80 $3.20 $0.98 $6.62
1994 $10.56 $3.14 $0.99 $6.43
1993 $10.24 $3.14 $0.98 $6.12
1992 $9.70 $2.64 $1.06 $6.00
1991 $9.37 $2.75 $0.91 $5.71
1990 $9.67 $2.91 $0.91 $5.85
1989 $8.61 $2.56 $0.87 $5.18


https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/Doc...x-Rate-History

[ITD]

Originally Posted by longislander

5.50 is the second lowest tax rate in 35 years, last year's 4.78 the lowest, with probably the highest assessments ever. A million$ + was returned to the taxpayers lowering that rate last year.

Year total Muni. County State Ed. Local ed.
2023 $5.70 $1.86 $0.88 $1.19 $1.77
2022 $4.78 $1.25 $0.80 $0.97 $1.76
2021 $6.98 $2.33 $1.01 $1.67 $1.97
2020 $7.13 $2.11 $1.15 $1.78 $2.09
2019 $7.15 $2.18 $1.10 $1.96 $1.91
2018 $7.72 $2.44 $1.23 $2.10 $1.95
2017 $8.22 $2.46 $1.35 $2.29 $2.12
2016 $8.74 $2.77 $1.43 $2.28 $2.26
2015 $9.01 $2.85 $1.42 $2.54 $2.20
2014 $8.86 $2.85 $1.22 $2.53 $2.26
2013 $8.69 $2.77 $1.13 $2.66 $2.13
2012 $8.56 $2.73 $1.11 $2.52 $2.20
2011 $8.33 $2.77 $1.06 $1.97 $2.53
2010 $8.12 $2.63 $1.05 $2.32 $2.12
2009 $7.70 $2.22 $1.03 $2.31 $2.14
2008 $7.66 $2.32 $0.97 $2.21 $2.16
2007 $6.99 $2.07 $0.79 $2.01 $2.12
2006 $6.71 $1.89 $0.75 $2.34 $1.73
2005 $6.79 $2.05 $0.77 $2.58 $1.39
2004 $7.99 $1.66 $0.78 $2.87 $2.68
2003 $12.18 $2.35 $1.14 $5.15 $3.54
2002 $12.11 $2.33 $0.89 $5.55 $3.34
2001 $10.06 $1.99 $0.74 $4.63 $2.70
2000 $9.55 $1.89 $0.61 $4.69 $2.36
1999 $14.58 $2.72 $0.92 $3.80 $7.14
1998 $10.24 $2.92 $0.94 $6.38
1997 $9.69 $2.66 $0.94 $6.09
1996 $9.24 $2.57 $0.90 $5.77
1995 $10.80 $3.20 $0.98 $6.62
1994 $10.56 $3.14 $0.99 $6.43
1993 $10.24 $3.14 $0.98 $6.12
1992 $9.70 $2.64 $1.06 $6.00
1991 $9.37 $2.75 $0.91 $5.71
1990 $9.67 $2.91 $0.91 $5.85
1989 $8.61 $2.56 $0.87 $5.18


https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/Doc...x-Rate-History

That's pretty much meaningless. A better list would be the total amount collected for each of those categories for each of those years.

[John Mercier]

I think it clearly shows what tummyman pointed out.
Last year was an unusual year with offsets that created a false low in the tax rate.

The amount raised for each category would also be wonky due to the offsets being present over time.

Each time the State or federal government supplied funds to a specific category, the amount need to be raised in property taxes in that category would be lower.

The specific budgets would be more accurate... but since those would be a decision of the residents of the town, no real blame outside of their choices could be inferred.

[longislander]

Originally Posted by ITD

That's pretty much meaningless. A better list would be the total amount collected for each of those categories for each of those years.

Now that is meaningless ... and that's being kind!

Taxes aren't paid by each category. Do you make four payments for one tax bill?

Those numbers were used at the recent selectboard meeting where the 5.70 tax rate was approved. The unassigned balance was being discussed. The town administrator showed 13.1% and we debated with two selectboard members that it was a good decision to give back $million+ to the taxpayers, last year. The same two selectboard members had wanted to save it for "The Hub".


https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/Doc...nce-PDF?bidId=

Now, I'm surprised nobody picked the typo of 5.50 instead of 5.70
With all the whining about how the tax rate is too high. The taxes rates are not too high ... look at your assessments. The taxes are higher, but not due mainly to the tax rate.

Originally Posted by ITD

Taxes don't increase unless town meeting or state politicians vote to increase them.

Town meetings don't vote on taxes. They vote on expenditures. The tax rate is set by the NH DRA in the Fall.

https://support.axiomnh.com/support/...tting-process-

[Descant]

What am I missing? The Gilford tax rate in 2022 was $12.25; haven't seen the 2023 bill yet, but waterfront values must be similar to Moultonborough. In many other towns the rate is any where from $14 to $22. A few years ago, a realtor pointed out to me that we had only 1 $1MM dollar home in town. The town next to us had 51 and Moultonborough had 286. There's a lot more that goes into the tax base/total assessed valuation, but it doesn't appear to me that Moultonborough taxpayers have much to complain about. A $1MM house in Gilford pays more than twice what a Moultonborough homeowner pays, but they're not complaining because they believe they're getting value for their dollar, I think. If you're not getting value for your dollar, go to Budget meetings, start a FB group, go to the deliberative session, run for office, etc. etc. Stop whining and crying.

[longislander]

Look at different town rates here:

https://www.revenue.nh.gov/mun-prop/...-tax-rates.htm

[Weekend Pundit]

Originally Posted by Descant

What am I missing? The Gilford tax rate in 2022 was $12.25; haven't seen the 2023 bill yet, but waterfront values must be similar to Moultonborough. In many other towns the rate is any where from $14 to $22. --snip--
If you're not getting value for your dollar, go to Budget meetings, start a FB group, go to the deliberative session, run for office, etc. etc. Stop whining and crying.

Gilford's new tax rate is $10.30 with the following breakdown:

School (Local) - $4.72
School (State) - $1.20
Town - $3.39
County - $0.99

Total assessed valuation for 2023 = $3,506,841,980
Total assessed valuation for 2022 = $2,601,781,920

Valuation went up 34.8% over 2022 and the tax rate went down 15.9%.

The upcoming budget battles will determine just how much our town will spend versus this year. If folks want their taxes to go down or at least stay the same then they need to get involved with budgeting and make sure they vote at Town Meeting. It's OK to vote 'No' on spending measures. It's how we keep control.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by longislander

Now that is meaningless ... and that's being kind!

Taxes aren't paid by each category. Do you make four payments for one tax bill?

Those numbers were used at the recent selectboard meeting where the 5.70 tax rate was approved. The unassigned balance was being discussed. The town administrator showed 13.1% and we debated with two selectboard members that it was a good decision to give back $million+ to the taxpayers, last year. The same two selectboard members had wanted to save it for "The Hub".


https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/Doc...nce-PDF?bidId=

Now, I'm surprised nobody picked the typo of 5.50 instead of 5.70
With all the whining about how the tax rate is too high. The taxes rates are not too high ... look at your assessments. The taxes are higher, but not due mainly to the tax rate.




Town meetings don't vote on taxes. They vote on expenditures. The tax rate is set by the NH DRA in the Fall.

https://support.axiomnh.com/support/...tting-process-

It's meaningless. What counts is the amount of money voted at town meeting, yes, expenditures, that are funded by tax dollars. Then you have the state expenditures, also voted on by reps and senators, added to the bill, all paid for by taxes plus some fees. Those appropriations, or voted expenditures, are used to set the tax rate. The tax rate is just a number, calculated to raise the money that is to be spent that year.

The information needed to figure out what caused this is available, you just need to look for it, it would be nice if the town and state put it in an easily digestible format..... but that would kill the incorrect assumption that property tax increases are caused by rising property values, the assumption that politicians, at least the ones who understand it, love, because it lets them off the hook.

Were that assumption (taxes rise because of valuation increases) true, in down years, when valuations slacken, taxes would decrease. That doesn't happen. Instead the tax rate would be increased to cover what was appropriated and eventually spent. If the appropriation were increased by the respective votes, taxes would still increase in a year, or period valuations decreased.

The answer is in the spending, not the tax rate. It's pretty simple, but many people are fooled.

[John Mercier]

I think you mean the county. The county would be representatives in that county.

The State education portion of the bill is not collected and redistributed... it just offsets what your school tax would actually be.

The State, or even the federal government, may choose not to make a discretionary grant to the town. But that effect can actually be measured.

That would be State senators, the Governor, Congress or the President stopping the flow of those revenues.

The town receives - and this is not an inclusive list - a portion of State gas taxes, Meals & Rentals, and BPT/BET (should they get educational grants or have individual students using EFA or charter schools).

Other than the push/pull of having a high year then offset of a low year that created a false marker... I think as tummyman pointed out, it really is more of the movement of value toward the water.
Every property may be going up in value, but those are going up faster.

I have a lot of job sites that I am supplying some very high end materials to, and they are all near the water.

[BroadHopper]

John is right. My condo may not be on the lake but I have deeded right to lake access. Tax valuation is based on nearby property sold. I bought my property in 2007 for 98K. My goal is to retire here. Now tax evaluation is $400K! My taxes did not increase fourfold but it more than doubled.

A friend of mine lives near town. In 2009 he paid 85K for his home. He does not have access to the lake but uses the town beach. His valuation today is only 149K. He sees his tax decrease. He's in a better position to retire!

There must be a better way to tax assessment. Perhaps square footage and acreage???

[sky's]

as a builder in this area you dont need to use fancy words or numbers. the population has exploded and all the poison is moving into this area and has been for several years. the municipalities will need to be be increased to support fire, first responders etc. this is reality folks Moultonboro has turned into a small Boston Suburb. enjoy.

[tis]

Originally Posted by sky's

as a builder in this area you dont need to use fancy words or numbers. the population has exploded and all the poison is moving into this area and has been for several years. the municipalities will need to be be increased to support fire, first responders etc. this is reality folks Moultonboro has turned into a small Boston Suburb. enjoy.

I have no problem with fire, police etc. What I have a problem with is all the frilly things that IMHO should not be part of a town budget. But everybody has their favorite little project and that's how it builds. And I think the schools are out of control. It's probably a lot because of government regulations but we have more administration in schools than we do teachers. We spend more than ever on schools and education is not better.

[longislander]

Assessment's are based on market values, no matter whom your town utilizes or contracts to determine those values.

Assessments x tax rate = Tax

Should be easy to understand.

Tax rates do go up and down. Take another look at the 35 year MoBo history. Facts, not opinion.

NH DRA sets the tax rate. The town voters set the appropriations.

The MoBo history included, has the 35 year relevant history for all 4 elements of the tax rate:

Municipal + County + State Ed. + Local Ed. = total tax rate


Shouldn't be that difficult to comprehend.

[longislander]

Moultonboro has turned into a small Boston Suburb.

Some of us attended a Moultonborough school board meeting Tuesday. The meeting was different than usual because it was requested to have the school board, selectboard, Capital Improvements Program Committee, Advisory Budget Committee get together to discuss the school board's activity to renovate the schools .... out of the blue. They hired a consultant to tell them what is wrong with the school buildings. They're kicking around a number of $44-$45 million. The school has a declining student population; around 480 "kids" k-12 presently. The buildings, a couple of them, are 20 and 40 years old, I think.

The school board has no clue on a plan. The school board is a separate legal governing body, with it own Wishlist of expenditure's.

You MoBo residents need to plan on attending the annual school district meeting and vote on the warrant articles the school board will submit. That annual meeting is in March. The town annual meeting is in May.

The annual school district meeting had about 70 of us that bothered to attend. It lasted all of 8:58 minutes for a $17 million dollar budget! It's on youtube. The town meeting meeting had to be re-scheduled because too many voters showed up to vote on The Hub. The town budget was $10 million.

You'll note that local ed. is part of the tax rate, although the annual town meeting doesn't vote on those expenditures ... the annual school meeting voters do. Yes, the same potential voters but voters that attend the school meeting have been under the radar.

[tis]

Originally Posted by longislander

Assessment's are based on market values, no matter whom your town utilizes or contracts to determine those values.

Assessments x tax rate = Tax

Should be easy to understand.

Tax rates do go up and down. Take another look at the 35 year MoBo history. Facts, not opinion.

NH DRA sets the tax rate. The town voters set the appropriations.

The MoBo history included, has the 35 year relevant history for all 4 elements of the tax rate:

Municipal + County + State Ed. + Local Ed. = total tax rate


Shouldn't be that difficult to comprehend.

I bet most of the times the rate went down is when the assessment went up. I would like to know if it ever went down when assessment DIDN'T go up. Also when assessed higher and the rate goes down it just gives them a chance to gradually each year go up and up and still brag that they have a low rate.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by longislander

Assessment's are based on market values, no matter whom your town utilizes or contracts to determine those values.

Assessments x tax rate = Tax

Should be easy to understand.

Tax rates do go up and down. Take another look at the 35 year MoBo history. Facts, not opinion.

NH DRA sets the tax rate. The town voters set the appropriations.

The MoBo history included, has the 35 year relevant history for all 4 elements of the tax rate:

Municipal + County + State Ed. + Local Ed. = total tax rate


Shouldn't be that difficult to comprehend.

Ok, apparently this is difficult to understand. How is the tax rate calculated, what determines how much tax is collected? Let's start with the town and then work our way up the chain.

[longislander]

The towns are required to submit to the NH DRA many forms, with data before tax rates are approved.

Then, Tax rates ... by the NH DRA ... then ....

https://www.revenue.nh.gov/mun-prop/...ation-data.pdf

https://www.revenue.nh.gov/mun-prop/...-tax-rates.htm

I'm heading out the door to Wolfeboro, but will take a look back at the forum later this evening, if we can chat some more.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by ITD

Ok, apparently this is difficult to understand. How is the tax rate calculated, what determines how much tax is collected? Let's start with the town and then work our way up the chain.

Each category has a budget that is enacted. The category also has offsets - other revenue (grants/etc). The DRA takes the budget minuses the offsets and that supplies them with what must be raised by the property tax.

That amount is then divided the total property tax within the district (gets a little more complex with multi-district schools due to agreed upon funding formulas).

So if the town needs to raise $50M per budget, but has offsets of $5M, then the property tax must raise $45M. The DRA takes the $45M and divides it by total property valuation within the town. That sets the municipal rate.

The DRA continues down the line until each category rate is set. The category rates added together is the total rate that we are looking at.

The total rate is multiplied by assessed value (fair market value) divided by 1000 and that is your tax.

So a town budget can stay exactly the same... but the loss of a revenue offset can make the amount to be raised by property taxes higher.

The same can happen with the school and county budgets.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Each category has a budget that is enacted. The category also has offsets - other revenue (grants/etc). The DRA takes the budget minuses the offsets and that supplies them with what must be raised by the property tax.

That amount is then divided the total property tax within the district (gets a little more complex with multi-district schools due to agreed upon funding formulas).

So if the town needs to raise $50M per budget, but has offsets of $5M, then the property tax must raise $45M. The DRA takes the $45M and divides it by total property valuation within the town. That sets the municipal rate.

The DRA continues down the line until each category rate is set. The category rates added together is the total rate that we are looking at.

The total rate is multiplied by assessed value (fair market value) divided by 1000 and that is your tax.

So a town budget can stay exactly the same... but the loss of a revenue offset can make the amount to be raised by property taxes higher.

The same can happen with the school and county budgets.

The town budget always goes up. But to your point, the tax rate is a ratio calculated to collect what " must be raised by the property tax." The tax rate is a meaningless number to determine if or by how much taxes have gone up or down.

Once again, this is a very important point. All the taxes we pay are voted into being, or law, by either town meeting or our representatives. Taxes do not increase due to new assessments. That is unless your property has appreciated faster than the average of everyone else's increase, but that's another discussion.

[camp guy]

Every year the question of taxes is beat to death on this Forum, and after a while, people finally begin to realize he complexity of calculating the tax rate, and that each Town, for the matter, each property, the tax rate is unique. To really know about taxes year after year, drag out your last year's checkbook and see what you paid - if it is more, your taxes went up, if it is less, your taxes went down. And that is the simplest explanation possible.

[jeffk]

Why are people "entitled" to a house on the lake or a house with lake access?

I bought a Moultonborough lake house in 1994 and I knew the tax structure then (it had already worked the way it does for quite a while). I knew that waterfront property would escalate in value and shift ever more tax proportionately to me. I planned to retire to the lake but my personal situation changed and I couldn't afford the lake house in retirement. I sold it, got a nice chunk of change for my retirement, and now live in a nice house (not on the lake) in Center Harbor. It quite nicely fits my retirement budget and, as observed, my taxes are much more stable and affordable. Friends of ours did the same thing and have been very happy in their non lake house with affordable taxes in Meredith for many years.

Why should lake owners be entitled to shift the taxes to other people so that they can keep their preferable house? Should the rest of the taxpayers be required to set aside some cash to allow lakefront owners to buy a Mercedes because that's more preferable than a Toyota?

The present property tax structure is reality and is unlikely to change. The state would have to decide that "helping" a small number of advantaged property owners and shifting the tax burden to non advantaged property owners would be workable. Since there are a LOT more NON advantaged property owners AND voters than advantaged owners, it would NOT be politically smart to consider this.

Confront the reality of the tax situation and do what you have to to fit your personal situation.

[tis]

Originally Posted by jeffk

Why are people "entitled" to a house on the lake or a house with lake access?

I bought a Moultonborough lake house in 1994 and I knew the tax structure then (it had already worked the way it does for quite a while). I knew that waterfront property would escalate in value and shift ever more tax proportionately to me. I planned to retire to the lake but my personal situation changed and I couldn't afford the lake house in retirement. I sold it, got a nice chunk of change for my retirement, and now live in a nice house (not on the lake) in Center Harbor. It quite nicely fits my retirement budget and, as observed, my taxes are much more stable and affordable. Friends of ours did the same thing and have been very happy in their non lake house with affordable taxes in Meredith for many years.

Why should lake owners be entitled to shift the taxes to other people so that they can keep their preferable house? Should the rest of the taxpayers be required to set aside some cash to allow lakefront owners to buy a Mercedes because that's more preferable than a Toyota?

The present property tax structure is reality and is unlikely to change. The state would have to decide that "helping" a small number of advantaged property owners and shifting the tax burden to non advantaged property owners would be workable. Since there are a LOT more NON advantaged property owners AND voters than advantaged owners, it would NOT be politically smart to consider this.

Confront the reality of the tax situation and do what you have to to fit your personal situation.

This is exactly what I worry about, that eventually many will decide they can't or won't pay the taxes any more so will sell. Then what will the towns do?

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

This is exactly what I worry about, that eventually many will decide they can't or won't pay the taxes any more so will sell. Then what will the towns do?

Tax the people that buy them.
For a property to be sold, there must be a buyer.

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Tax the people that buy them.
For a property to be sold, there must be a buyer.

That is assuming there continues to be buyers.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by tis

That is assuming there continues to be buyers.

There are always buyers, it's just the amount of $$$$$ that change.
Sometimes it goes up and sometimes it goes down, but it's always feels like it's too much when you're a buyer and not enough when you're a seller!

[tis]

Originally Posted by Biggd

There are always buyers, it's just the amount of $$$$$ that change.
Sometimes it goes up and sometimes it goes down, but it's always feels like it's too much when you're a buyer and not enough when you're a seller!

There always have been buyers. But will taxes reach a point where there won't be enough buyers ?

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by tis

This is exactly what I worry about, that eventually many will decide they can't or won't pay the taxes any more so will sell. Then what will the towns do?

I'm not sure that this is a concern for the towns. Whoever BOUGHT an expensive lakefront property should also have the ability to pay the higher taxes. So far there seem to be plenty of buyers, even at high prices.

At some point, there will be a market slump. Current owners will still be able to sell, just at somewhat reduced prices. As the lower lake values are factored in, some of the tax responsibility will be shifted away from the lake owners to the non lake residents. Then you will hear non lake residents groaning about their taxes going up, ... until the next boom cycle.

Effectively, rising lake home prices guarantee that taxes will proportionately shift more to those houses. The silver lining is that if you DO need to sell, you will get more for your lake home without having to do anything to improve it.

In fact, if you are in the position of not being able to afford the taxes, NOW is a time to consider selling while prices are still high and you can get the most benefit. Also consider, every year that you spend in a house with taxes you can barely afford, you are depleting your resources, never to get the money back. Say you are pulling $5,000 out of savings every year to pay taxes. After 10 years, you are down $50,000. That money could have been spent on some nice vacation getaways. Or money for a needed new car. Some future planning may show you would be smart to get away from the high taxes NOW, rather than later after all the tax damage is done. Also, is your lake house needing big repairs (new roof, septic, flooring ...) that you cannot afford. If you sell, you can afford another house in great condition. It's a personal choice BUT it's also driven by hard economic realities.

[rsmlp]

been a lakefront owner since 1997. taxes/ unit of market value are quite low in 03254 compared to other towns and reasonable compared to other states. it seems like people are complaining that their property values have increased and they don't like that their taxes have increased commensurately.

move?

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by rsmlp

been a lakefront owner since 1997. taxes/ unit of market value are quite low in 03254 compared to other towns and reasonable compared to other states. it seems like people are complaining that their property values have increased and they don't like that their taxes have increased commensurately.

move?

I have no problem with Property Values going up, and I have no problem with Taxes going up.....

What I do have a problem with it both taking place in the same year, at the rate in which they did... That tells me that somewhere something is not be kept in check.... Once again I will stick to the math of it all.......

using the Figures from Tummyman, and starting with the Tax rate, we would have had last year with this year property values $4.14

We add the addition of "extra cash" and the reduced income which I am fine with and can understand we get too 4.71 and ok that is reasonable and I would have a tax bill of ~5200$ which is inline with my 2021 tax bill..... And to me that is reasonable. But I do know the cost of things have gone up, so I expect a increase from there....

Where we start to encounter questions is from the additional $0.99..... on a personal level for me I see that as an $1000 of additional Taxes.... But now lets play that out further at the Town of Multonborough level, which has $5.6B worth of property value.... That is over 5.5M dollars worth of additional funding.....

I don't care who you are that is a lot of additional Cabbage, So where is it all going.... What is being done with the money.... Have the towns spending needs changed that much? I would be very suprised by that....

Now had the tax increase been 1/3 of that 99 cents so 33 cents... which would have been 1.8M dollars of additional funding at the town level and 363$ passed on to a homeowner... I wouldn't have batted and eye.... I probably would have rationalized 50 cents per thousand additional....

I do agree that overall the Tax rate for Moultonborough is very low... which is what leads to the property especially on the water being so desirable... And why in my estimation, there will never be a problem selling waterfront property in Moultonborough.... The Town and the State know this... And Moultonborugh isn't the only town that sees this overall all the Winnipesaukee towns have a low tax rate.... Mostly because there Municipal and Local Ed. needs are minimal, do to the very low permanent resident population. I think locally the spending in Moultonborough is very frugal, and I don't have concerns at that level, I do have concerns at the County and State levels however, which come down and have an effect on our property Taxes....

Here is the food for thought once again with Numbers, According to publicly available forms, the valuation of property for all of New Hampshire is ~$200B..... an increase accross the board of 33 Cents per thousand is ~$100M.....

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

I have no problem with Property Values going up, and I have no problem with Taxes going up.....

What I do have a problem with it both taking place in the same year, at the rate in which they did... That tells me that somewhere something is not be kept in check.... Once again I will stick to the math of it all.......

using the Figures from Tummyman, and starting with the Tax rate, we would have had last year with this year property values $4.14

We add the addition of "extra cash" and the reduced income which I am fine with and can understand we get too 4.71 and ok that is reasonable and I would have a tax bill of ~5200$ which is inline with my 2021 tax bill..... And to me that is reasonable. But I do know the cost of things have gone up, so I expect a increase from there....

Where we start to encounter questions is from the additional $0.99..... on a personal level for me I see that as an $1000 of additional Taxes.... But now lets play that out further at the Town of Multonborough level, which has $5.6B worth of property value.... That is over 5.5M dollars worth of additional funding.....

I don't care who you are that is a lot of additional Cabbage, So where is it all going.... What is being done with the money.... Have the towns spending needs changed that much? I would be very suprised by that....

Now had the tax increase been 1/3 of that 99 cents so 33 cents... which would have been 1.8M dollars of additional funding at the town level and 363$ passed on to a homeowner... I wouldn't have batted and eye.... I probably would have rationalized 50 cents per thousand additional....

I do agree that overall the Tax rate for Moultonborough is very low... which is what leads to the property especially on the water being so desirable... And why in my estimation, there will never be a problem selling waterfront property in Moultonborough.... The Town and the State know this... And Moultonborugh isn't the only town that sees this overall all the Winnipesaukee towns have a low tax rate.... Mostly because there Municipal and Local Ed. needs are minimal, do to the very low permanent resident population. I think locally the spending in Moultonborough is very frugal, and I don't have concerns at that level, I do have concerns at the County and State levels however, which come down and have an effect on our property Taxes....

Here is the food for thought once again with Numbers, According to publicly available forms, the valuation of property for all of New Hampshire is ~$200B..... an increase accross the board of 33 Cents per thousand is ~$100M.....

The county would be your State Representatives voting on the county budget... and the State ED hasn't changed to my knowledge, and the money never leaves Moultonborough.

If you think the number is off... that the municipal budget and divide it by total town property valuation. From what tummyman stated, you do not have a ''buy down'' of the taxes this year like you did last year; so that simple math should be reasonably accurate in the final number.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by jeffk

Why are people "entitled" to a house on the lake or a house with lake access?

I bought a Moultonborough lake house in 1994 and I knew the tax structure then (it had already worked the way it does for quite a while). I knew that waterfront property would escalate in value and shift ever more tax proportionately to me. I planned to retire to the lake but my personal situation changed and I couldn't afford the lake house in retirement. I sold it, got a nice chunk of change for my retirement, and now live in a nice house (not on the lake) in Center Harbor. It quite nicely fits my retirement budget and, as observed, my taxes are much more stable and affordable. Friends of ours did the same thing and have been very happy in their non lake house with affordable taxes in Meredith for many years.

Why should lake owners be entitled to shift the taxes to other people so that they can keep their preferable house? Should the rest of the taxpayers be required to set aside some cash to allow lakefront owners to buy a Mercedes because that's more preferable than a Toyota?

The present property tax structure is reality and is unlikely to change. The state would have to decide that "helping" a small number of advantaged property owners and shifting the tax burden to non advantaged property owners would be workable. Since there are a LOT more NON advantaged property owners AND voters than advantaged owners, it would NOT be politically smart to consider this.

Confront the reality of the tax situation and do what you have to to fit your personal situation.

I agree, but I do think long time residential owners should get some kind of tax reduction.
People that have owned waterfront property for many years shouldn't be forced to sell because they can no longer afford the taxes, no matter how much their property has increased in value.
In my hometown in Ma, because we have so many rental properties, residential owners who live full time in their properties get a 20% reduction on their property taxes. If you have a multifamily and you live in one unit you get a discount on that portion of the property.

[longislander]

Personally, I've never been a lakefront owner; lake access yes, on Longisland. Bought the property in1974, built a house, sold it five years ago; neighborhood went to hell. I should change my handle from Longislander to Moultonboro Necker. Prefer to look at the ever changing view of the mountains, especially Mt. Washington than the lake.

I don't begrudge lakefront owners. Their choice.

Moultonborough, according to gov't census, has around 5,000 residents' about 1,000 increase from the 2010 to 2020 census. What the censuses don't show is the summer influx of second homeowners and renters. The town blooms, like cyanobacteria, to 25,000-40,000 folks, mainly out-of-staters.

Happy to see the out-of-state plates. They cannot legally vote, but help the local economy.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by longislander

5.50 is the second lowest tax rate in 35 years, last year's 4.78 the lowest, with probably the highest assessments ever. A million$ + was returned to the taxpayers lowering that rate last year.

Year total Muni. County State Ed. Local ed.
2023 $5.70 $1.86 $0.88 $1.19 $1.77
2022 $4.78 $1.25 $0.80 $0.97 $1.76
2021 $6.98 $2.33 $1.01 $1.67 $1.97
2020 $7.13 $2.11 $1.15 $1.78 $2.09
2019 $7.15 $2.18 $1.10 $1.96 $1.91
2018 $7.72 $2.44 $1.23 $2.10 $1.95
2017 $8.22 $2.46 $1.35 $2.29 $2.12
2016 $8.74 $2.77 $1.43 $2.28 $2.26
2015 $9.01 $2.85 $1.42 $2.54 $2.20
2014 $8.86 $2.85 $1.22 $2.53 $2.26
2013 $8.69 $2.77 $1.13 $2.66 $2.13
2012 $8.56 $2.73 $1.11 $2.52 $2.20
2011 $8.33 $2.77 $1.06 $1.97 $2.53
2010 $8.12 $2.63 $1.05 $2.32 $2.12
2009 $7.70 $2.22 $1.03 $2.31 $2.14
2008 $7.66 $2.32 $0.97 $2.21 $2.16
2007 $6.99 $2.07 $0.79 $2.01 $2.12
2006 $6.71 $1.89 $0.75 $2.34 $1.73
2005 $6.79 $2.05 $0.77 $2.58 $1.39
2004 $7.99 $1.66 $0.78 $2.87 $2.68
2003 $12.18 $2.35 $1.14 $5.15 $3.54
2002 $12.11 $2.33 $0.89 $5.55 $3.34
2001 $10.06 $1.99 $0.74 $4.63 $2.70
2000 $9.55 $1.89 $0.61 $4.69 $2.36
1999 $14.58 $2.72 $0.92 $3.80 $7.14
1998 $10.24 $2.92 $0.94 $6.38
1997 $9.69 $2.66 $0.94 $6.09
1996 $9.24 $2.57 $0.90 $5.77
1995 $10.80 $3.20 $0.98 $6.62
1994 $10.56 $3.14 $0.99 $6.43
1993 $10.24 $3.14 $0.98 $6.12
1992 $9.70 $2.64 $1.06 $6.00
1991 $9.37 $2.75 $0.91 $5.71
1990 $9.67 $2.91 $0.91 $5.85
1989 $8.61 $2.56 $0.87 $5.18


https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/Doc...x-Rate-History

I appreciate this list.... but as indicated it is really meaningless other then showing the tax rate over the last several years..... you need to know when valuation changed, and also what the town collected in taxes total on a yearly basis to make some meaning out of all of it....

I have not problem with the Tax Rate itself.....However its increase with the Re-assement increase, is a combination that leaves my stomach sour..... I will again use my situation as an example.

My old valuation and the new tax rate:
~750K x 5.70 per thousand = ~4.2K
This would have been 300$ above my 2022 total tax and inline with my 2019 and 2020 taxes

the extra ~300K I was just assessed for added
~300K x 5.7 per thousand = ~1,710

Now you can talk about inflation etc. and give back in 2022 etc.... but 1710$ increase in taxes just doesn't added up.....

Now add fuel to this agrument, taxes in 2021 where the highest I have record of at ~5.2K, this years total tax at ~5.9K is still a 13% increase... which is still an incredible increase......

Once again I stick to the NH way is not a sound way..... I have never seen year over year property tax swings like I have seen in NH...