2023 Meredith Tax Rate & Bills Coming Today

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by 4 for Boating

So it looks to me that waterfront LAND in most cases doubled in value ...

So given the above situation - the question is >> where is all that additional tax revenue going? To pay for spending that has increase for the town (if so for what exactly) OR did non-waterfront homeowners see a reduction in their taxes and more burden is being put on the waterfront owners? What exactly is the justification for such a large/disproportionate increase? ...

You have answered your own question, the massive increase in lake front valuations, not only on land but also the buildings, is shifting the tax burden to those owners. This increase in valuation is based on actual sale prices of homes that is used as a yardstick for the tax valuations.

There is nothing mysterious here, this is the way the property tax system is DESIGNED to work. The "wealthy" property owners are expected to pay a bigger portion of tax than the more modest property owners.

As to towns spending more, in general, the towns have not gone on massive spending sprees. Consider that costs have gone up due to the cumulative 20% inflation over the last few years. (Gee, I wonder what caused that?) The town's costs, including school costs, are not immune from that. Plus, every town faces occasional big bills that have to be met. Maybe a few towns could afford to trim their budgets a bit but that is not what is pushing most of this tax increase onto lake front owners.

As to the concern expressed by some others that the high taxes (and high prices) are going to repel buyers, YES, eventually they will. The TELL on that will be when houses are sitting unsold for long periods of time and unsold inventory rises. (I don't think that is happening yet.) When that happens, people who need to sell will reduce their sales price to entice buyers, in spite of the tax concern. The lowered sale prices will eventually shift the tax burden away from lake front property owners. All these "market forces" are unpredictable in scope and timing because they are subject to individual decisions about buying and selling. The only thing we know for sure is that property markets WILL fluctuate and the prices of property drive the tax apportionment.

[DickR]

Originally Posted by jeffk

...
There is nothing mysterious here, this is the way the property tax system is DESIGNED to work. The "wealthy" property owners are expected to pay a bigger portion of tax than the more modest property owners.

The property tax, based on likely selling price, is fundamentally a tax based on someone else's ability to pay it. However, it sure works to the benefit of towns with a lot of vacation property, owned by folks "from away" who have no say in spending and get little in the way of services from the town. It isn't likely to change, but it tends to force out long-term property owners.

[4 for Boating]

Putting aside the waterfront aspect for a second and just talking in general - I think it's more than a bit ridiculous for a tax bill for anyone to go up over 30% in one single year with no changes to the property.

Let's take for a moment that this was across the board > it would cripple most people. I understand raising taxes/higher costs and it looks to me that the Town (Meredith) has increased spending by some 8%? Again I look to the old days where I used to live where the tax amount raise per year was capped as to not cause a hardship on anyone.

Back to waterfront > going to be a bit of a shocker for those not seeing it coming...

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by DickR

The property tax, based on likely selling price, is fundamentally a tax based on someone else's ability to pay it. However, it sure works to the benefit of towns with a lot of vacation property, owned by folks "from away" who have no say in spending and get little in the way of services from the town. It isn't likely to change, but it tends to force out long-term property owners.

That is largely due to a change in their relative status.
The same happens on non-waterfront properties for individuals that do not save enough in retirement funding to cover the reality of their lifestyle.

I know someone that sold their lakefront cabin on Squam after inheriting it. His grandfather was a judge... he's a carpenter. The judge could afford the property, the carpenter can't. Different levels of status in society with different pay scales and pensions.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

I know someone that sold their lakefront cabin on Squam after inheriting it. His grandfather was a judge... he's a carpenter. The judge could afford the property, the carpenter can't. Different levels of status in society with different pay scales and pensions.

That is a scenario that Makes sense.....

My scenario however is where that falls apart.... My father a successful Engineer 30+ years retired early, and was able to by our property and maintain it in retirement... I am a successful Engineer with 25+ years, making more money then my father even thought about.... Yes I am able maintain the property well I am working, but realize that if I want to retire early I will need to sell the property, because it will be to much of a financial Drain....

Everything changes always does, it however is a shame that things have gotten so out of control in NH, that people are having to make decisions not because they don't want to continue to visit the same place, but because they are being Taxed out of their places, because a state doesn't want to evolve......

As I have said plenty of other places, for me to consider that are more affordable... My hope is to keep the Winnipesaukee property until I am ready to retire, because it is close to work and allows me to utilize it often.... But in retirement, it is likely off to Maine... or Vt. where I can buy a comparable property, and pay significantly less property Tax....

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

That is a scenario that Makes sense.....

My scenario however is where that falls apart.... My father a successful Engineer 30+ years retired early, and was able to by our property and maintain it in retirement... I am a successful Engineer with 25+ years, making more money then my father even thought about.... Yes I am able maintain the property well I am working, but realize that if I want to retire early I will need to sell the property, because it will be to much of a financial Drain....

Everything changes always does, it however is a shame that things have gotten so out of control in NH, that people are having to make decisions not because they don't want to continue to visit the same place, but because they are being Taxed out of their places, because a state doesn't want to evolve......

As I have said plenty of other places, for me to consider that are more affordable... My hope is to keep the Winnipesaukee property until I am ready to retire, because it is close to work and allows me to utilize it often.... But in retirement, it is likely off to Maine... or Vt. where I can buy a comparable property, and pay significantly less property Tax....

I have a few friends that own lakefront in Maine and they complain about their tax bills also. I have others that own coastal property in Maine and their bills are outrageous! You can't escape the tax man.

[Bittz]

Ours up a little over 12%.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by Biggd

I have a few friends that own lakefront in Maine and they complain about their tax bills also. I have others that own coastal property in Maine and their bills are outrageous! You can't escape the tax man.

It's all relative. Lived in rural Maine when I was in the Navy in the 70's. Locals there were talking about moving to Nova Scotia because Maine was too crowded. People moving here from NY, NJ think everything here is wide open and cheap.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Biggd

I have a few friends that own lakefront in Maine and they complain about their tax bills also. I have others that own coastal property in Maine and their bills are outrageous! You can't escape the tax man.

You’re right you can't escape taxes... and I never said that Maine or Vermont would come with property tax. However in looking at property in those two locals, the property tax burden is far less then it is in NH...

Inflation happens, property taxes go up, value of property goes up... no doubt about that.... But the inconsistency in NH, couple with the poor funding model cause property tax swings that are unbelievable....

My beef has always been that NH could make it so much better if they would just decided to Levy sales tax.... but people are to afraid of that.... School funding etc. would stop being points of contention....

[ishoot308]

All you doom and gloomers...Unless you plan on moving to Alaska or Tennessee, NH is still #3 in the nation for state with the lowest overall tax burden! Yes our property taxes are high but when combined with all other taxes, NH is still a pretty dam good state to live in and still at #3 in the nation!!

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...e-lowest-taxes

Live Free or Die!....or move!

Dan

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Your right you can't escape taxes... and I never said that Maine or Vermont would come with property tax. However in looking at property in those two locals, the property tax burden is far less then it is in NH...

Inflation happens, property taxes go up, value of property goes up... no doubt about that.... But the inconsistency in NH, couple with the poor funding model cause property tax swings that are unbelievable....

My beef has always been that NH could make it so much better if they would just decided to Levy sales tax.... but people are to afraid of that.... School funding etc. would stop being points of contention....

NH has several sales taxes.

[gwhite13]

fortunate to winter in Fla. they go on and on about no income taxes here. as is the case everywhere it takes nearly the same to run a town,city,state.... relatively speaking. last week buying several mattresses from a well-known retailer i noticed the sales tax was disproportional to final price. was told tax is set on retail price, not sale price...yay. today went to best buy to replace warranted phone screen protector. free replacement cost $.31cents sales tax...so free is not always free. in Fla anyway... a cautionary tale

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier;389913

NH has several sales taxes.

Yes. I don't know what you would call the NH Business Profits Tax and Business Enterprise Tax if not income taxes.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

Yes. I don't know what you would call the NH Business Profits Tax and Business Enterprise Tax if not income taxes.

The business taxes and the I&D are both income taxes.

But Meals & Rental, fuel, tobacco, communications, sand/gravel, timber, MET, RETT... these are all sales taxes.

BPT was instituted long ago to tax profits rather than the old system that would add equipment and even livestock to the property tax. But this money would flow to the State, as no really local services were being provided by it. Now some of it is return as education adequacy grants... which is why we even formulated the EFA to use the same sourcing. A well-educated workforce being to the benefit of business productivity. The BET was enacted due to businesses using excessive accounting gimmicks to overcome the BPT. A business pays the greater of the two... and thus it is not really worth the effort to arrange business processes to avoid a profit. Many of those tax avoidance processes using up product time and assets that should go towards growing top line revenue and seeking efficiencies to deliver it to bottom line results.

The desire to lower the BPT is largely to be competitive with other States... looking at more than New England and thinking of the northeast quadrant as our focus. Doing so has served us well.


The I&D was originally enacted on all interest and dividends earned outside NH. The purpose was to get more internal investment in our own growth rather than fuel the development of areas outside NH. It was found unconstitutional to do so and became universal on all interest and dividends. Which is why disposing of it is the correct action.

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The business taxes and the I&D are both income taxes.


BPT was instituted long ago to tax profits rather than the old system that would add equipment and even livestock to the property tax. But this money would flow to the State, as no really local services were being provided by it. Now some of it is return as education adequacy grants... which is why we even formulated the EFA to use the same sourcing. A well-educated workforce being to the benefit of business productivity. The BET was enacted due to businesses using excessive accounting gimmicks to overcome the BPT. A business pays the greater of the two... and thus it is not really worth the effort to arrange business processes to avoid a profit. Many of those tax avoidance processes using up product time and assets that should go towards growing top line revenue and seeking efficiencies to deliver it to bottom line results.

I disagree a little bit. The BET was not because of "gimmicks" really. It was because owners took all their profits in income so professionals like attorneys and accountants who usually took all their profits in income would also have to pay a tax. A business/owner doesn't really pay the greater of the two, they pay BPT PLUS BET on the income they take. So they pay both.

[John Mercier]

I didn't know that both had to be paid.
I was under the impression that one offset the other.

But it was to avoid a ''gimmick'' when Merrill signed it into law.
It meant business formation was more often being based on avoiding the BPT.
Avoiding taxations takes time and resources.

It is like a STR not having all the regulations, restrictions, and costs imposed on a motel. The avoidance of building motels has resulted in residential property... specifically in high demand areas... to skyrocket in value; and thus the situation being discussed.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

... because a state doesn't want to evolve ...
and pay significantly less property Tax....

This is where I cannot agree. Instituting Sales and Income taxes to reduce property taxes is a DEVOLUTION. Most states have gone this route and it has solved NOTHING. It just shifts the tax burden around, often onto those who can least afford it.

Consider this, in NH if I want to avoid high taxes, I simply do not buy an expensive piece of property.

If I inherit one, I sell it and pocket a couple million dollars. At 5% earnings (NOT taxed by NH unless dividends and interest and even that is being phased out) on the $2 million you can take an annual $100,000 vacation anywhere in the world for the rest of your life.

Try avoiding a sales tax. It's built into much of what is bought in many states.

If you are not retired, income tax unavoidably gobbles up a chunk of your pay. In some states, high wage earners are "progressively" taxed at a higher rate.

And what do you get for your "evolved" tax structure? Usually, out of control spending because once politicians have a money pot to access they think of MANY ways to expand spending for "evolved" causes. Check in with Vermont, California, New York, ... where they are taxed through the roof, INCLUDING heavy property taxes, and they are STILL GOING BROKE. Further, since most of these "evolved" taxes are instituted at the state level, they are out of the range of local control. If you think it's tough to control local spending, controlling state spending of sales and income taxes is impossible. The federal government, where we are $33 TRILLION in debt, is FAR worse.

As others have pointed out, NH has one of the lowest overall tax burdens and, for the most part, it is funded by people who CHOOSE to buy/keep expensive property and CAN afford it and businesses who are making a profit.

If paying taxes like Vermont is "evolved", I would rather remain a property tax paying, devolved, monkey and keep more of my hard earned money. Please don't step on my tail.

[Irish mist]

No state has ever reduced spending by instituting a new tax stream. The state would just spend more.

[tis]

I agree. Name one state that has added an income or sales tax, etc. that has said they now have plenty of money. It doesn't happen.

[AC2717]

I think Tax burden is relative, as in yes you will always pay taxes, and you maybe should choose where to live based on real estate taxes and income taxes and sales taxes alike. One situation works better or worse for one vs the other. Being in Laconia and Maynard MA, relatively small towns/cities in the country and reviewing the budgets, and agreeing that town budgets the majority is made up in Labor - with benefits and pensions and being a large sum of money. Towns refuse to go to a 401k style retirement and they continue on benefits when you can retire after a short period of time and collect whether it's $200 a month or $1000 a month scale depending of course, but your benefits continue. This would kill a private business today and is why it has changed. It is an outrageous amount of spending for a town, and the larger departments get these numbers continue to go as for example the 45/50 year old retires and still receives benefit for the rest of their lives 30+ years.

Now would agree perks of the job, and pay is a little lower than the private sector but that is not the case much anymore. For example look at the post office. very large labor force that still has a pension program and benefits long after retirement, every year they are taking a larger and larger loss but the government looks at everything else instead of their number one loss leader - Labor costs, so they will just continue to price themselves out of mail/package delivery service.

As far as pricing out those like in my case somewhat long time property owners. The higher the taxes go, the more get priced out of the market of affordability. The buyers at these rates, are usually buyers with multiple properties and leads to less use of all their properties, which majority leads to less spending in the community whether "rich" or middle class due to their costs. I would leave with one thought, Gov's Island, how many of those properties are occupied during most of the year even the summer, how much money other than taxes are being spent in the area off of those homeowners???

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by AC2717

I think Tax burden is relative, as in yes you will always pay taxes, and you maybe should choose where to live based on real estate taxes and income taxes and sales taxes alike. One situation works better or worse for one vs the other. Being in Laconia and Maynard MA, relatively small towns/cities in the country and reviewing the budgets, and agreeing that town budgets the majority is made up in Labor - with benefits and pensions and being a large sum of money. Towns refuse to go to a 401k style retirement and they continue on benefits when you can retire after a short period of time and collect whether it's $200 a month or $1000 a month scale depending of course, but your benefits continue. This would kill a private business today and is why it has changed. It is an outrageous amount of spending for a town, and the larger departments get these numbers continue to go as for example the 45/50 year old retires and still receives benefit for the rest of their lives 30+ years.

Now would agree perks of the job, and pay is a little lower than the private sector but that is not the case much anymore. For example look at the post office. very large labor force that still has a pension program and benefits long after retirement, every year they are taking a larger and larger loss but the government looks at everything else instead of their number one loss leader - Labor costs, so they will just continue to price themselves out of mail/package delivery service.

As far as pricing out those like in my case somewhat long time property owners. The higher the taxes go, the more get priced out of the market of affordability. The buyers at these rates, are usually buyers with multiple properties and leads to less use of all their properties, which majority leads to less spending in the community whether "rich" or middle class due to their costs. I would leave with one thought, Gov's Island, how many of those properties are occupied during most of the year even the summer, how much money other than taxes are being spent in the area off of those homeowners???

Personally, I'd much rather see empty homes than homes filled with disruptive renters.
My neighborhood is so quiet in the winter, snowbirds fly South, I love it!

[LIforrelaxin]

No government or business is ever going to claim they have enough money, that isn't what changing the tax structure does. What you can do with a tax structure is change where buden lies.....

Examples

property tax -- Burden lies solely with the home owner

Rooms and Meals tax -- effects everyone residents / Homeowner pay meal tax along with tourists... Tourists pay for Rooms tax, as they don't have a place to stay...

Sales Tax -- effects everyone regardless of ownership and residency

The point people seem to continue to miss, is that I am not saying a Sales Tax is the answer, it is a way to shift burden.... And stabilize Property Tax... This doesn't mean that property tax and values still will not go up, and it doesn't mean that Sales Tax has to be outrageous.... it simple becomes a revenue stream that raises money and effects all people that enjoy the state equally....

When you look at something like a states total tax burden, which with out argument NH is low.... how is that being calculated? Is it based on # of declared residents?, is it based on Number of personal properties in the state? I mean just where does that number come from...

[Biggd]

I'd like to think that a sales tax would decrease our property taxes but like others have said, more revenue would just increase spending.
So, I say no to a sales tax and income tax!

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

When you look at something like a states total tax burden, which with out argument NH is low.... how is that being calculated? Is it based on # of declared residents?, is it based on Number of personal properties in the state? I mean just where does that number come from...

It comes from... "measured as total individual taxes paid divided by total personal income"...Pretty simple really.

Please tell me what state is doing it better than NH??....and PLEASE don't say Massachusetts!!...or Maine, or Vermont, or Connecticut...I could go on and on...

Enough talk about sales tax!! The people of NH have spoken about this many times and we do NOT want it here!

Dan

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

It comes from... "measured as total individual taxes paid divided by total personal income"...Pretty simple really.

Please tell me what state is doing it better than NH??....and PLEASE don't say Massachusetts!!...or Maine, or Vermont, or Connecticut...I could go on and on...

Enough talk about sales tax!! The people of NH have spoken about this many times and we do NOT want it here!

Dan

There's something...demoralizing about "everyday" taxes. We're in Florida for the week, and EVERYTHING is taxed—food, products, admissions, etc.—and it's awful.

Sent from my SM-S911U using Tapatalk

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

There's something...demoralizing about "everyday" taxes. We're in Florida for the week, and EVERYTHING is taxed—food, products, admissions, etc.—and it's awful.

Sent from my SM-S911U using Tapatalk

Exactly Think!…and why would us Granite Staters want “awful” in NH?….we don’t!

Dan

[John Mercier]

Well, to return to constitutionalism, they are going to have to decide what taxes get raised. $500M a year doesn't just appear out of thin air.

If they decide to get rid of SWEPT, so the return to donor towns doesn't happen... the sum would be nearly double.

Getting a billion dollars out of our current sales and income tax regime would transform life in NH in unimaginable ways.

The overall per capita would not change... the overall sum wouldn't change... just the means of reaching the overall sum.

[Chimi]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Well, to return to constitutionalism, they are going to have to decide what taxes get raised. $500M a year doesn't just appear out of thin air.

If they decide to get rid of SWEPT, so the return to donor towns doesn't happen... the sum would be nearly double.

Getting a billion dollars out of our current sales and income tax regime would transform life in NH in unimaginable ways.

The overall per capita would not change... the overall sum wouldn't change... just the means of reaching the overall sum.

Casinos would be a good place to start. Think of all the money that people now spend at out of state casinos.

[Descant]

The trend more and more is to rely on taxes when we want to buy something big. Not so long ago, if folks wanted something they got together and raised the money from those who were interested. Many fire trucks have been paid for by Ham and bean suppers. Locally, we replace fire equipment every 15 years or so. "It's past its useful life" But some other town buys it at salvage, fixes it up and is very proud of the truck and the volunteers who made it possible. Reputedly, the top public high school in the state is the Academy of Science and Design in Nashua. No band, no varsity sports. They teach languages (14 last I heard) with Rosetta Stone and native speakers who are hired part time. And when Town meeting starts to get frugal, the school boards respond by saying, "OK. We'll eliminate football" and they get whatever they want. There are strong lobbies out there, and they aren't pushing for better academics.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Descant

The trend more and more is to rely on taxes when we want to buy something big. Not so long ago, if folks wanted something they got together and raised the money from those who were interested. Many fire trucks have been paid for by Ham and bean suppers. Locally, we replace fire equipment every 15 years or so. "It's past its useful life" But some other town buys it at salvage, fixes it up and is very proud of the truck and the volunteers who made it possible. Reputedly, the top public high school in the state is the Academy of Science and Design in Nashua. No band, no varsity sports. They teach languages (14 last I heard) with Rosetta Stone and native speakers who are hired part time. And when Town meeting starts to get frugal, the school boards respond by saying, "OK. We'll eliminate football" and they get whatever they want. There are strong lobbies out there, and they aren't pushing for better academics.

This true. But none of what you've brought up is included in State mandates to local districts. We have a mandate to teach five (?) credits of a second language (English is the State Official Language), but do not have to employee a teacher(s) for more than that one additional language.
The State cannot be expected to pay for band or sports teams. Only its mandates.

The Legislature seems to think that if it makes a mandate, but doesn't call it part of education, that it doesn't have to pay for it at the State level.
This is either a complete competency failure of our legislators to understand the NH Constitution, or just a complete refusal to keep their Oath to the NH Constitution.
We have seen this for a long time on lots of issues... this one just gets the most media traction as it impacts such a large portion of the mechanism by which taxes are raised to reach what all those legislators want.

How would structure a big ticket sales tax? Would it raise enough money without shifting purchases to other States? And what would be the odds of new tax taking hold in NH?

[Descant]

My friends in the legislature are always aware of "Article 28-a" issues when working on new legislation. The catch 22 is that 28-a was passed in the early 80's as I recall. Anything that was mandated prior to that is grandfathered and there is some loose interpretation of what that means. To my knowledge, no school district or town has taken the issue to court. The issues around schools all came from "cherish" not 28-a as far as I can tell.

Good news: I believe this is the last year for the interest and dividends income tax which is being phased out, unless the legislature changes their mind in the 2024 session.

I foresee some juggling on the Rooms and Meals tax which is higher than surrounding states, but appears to not have a negative impact on tourism. Nevertheless, I think this is our biggest "sales tax" which Concord denies because it is not a "general" sales tax. As Gov. Thompson said "Low spending means low taxes".

Apologies to the OP for getting away from Meredith taxes. I'll try to behave myself moving forward.

[John Mercier]

We have casinos.
I live in Belmont. The casino is right down the road.

Even the Lottery, which has its revenue added into the State Adequacy Grants, doesn't produce significant amounts of money when the overall picture is taken into consideration.

And the State would only derive revenues, as it does now, from food sales.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

And the State would only derive revenues, as it does now, from food sales.

Past proposals (all failed) included huge licensing fees and a lot more hotel/room tax revenue projections. However, nobody talked about increased administrative costs, policing, other municipal services that come out of a town budget.
NH still suffers from newbies who want to change what is working well instead of learning from our experience.

[John Mercier]

They failed because they failed to see two issues.
One, the casinos already exist... they just don't have the budgets to spend a lot on increasing marketing because we don't have ''whales'' - we have small time retail players that cost more to service.

The second issue is that constitutionally, the State would need legislation that is constitutional. The proponents of casinos were not willing to go in that direction.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

No government or business is ever going to claim they have enough money, that isn't what changing the tax structure does. What you can do with a tax structure is change where buden lies.....

Examples

property tax -- Burden lies solely with the home owner

Rooms and Meals tax -- effects everyone residents / Homeowner pay meal tax along with tourists... Tourists pay for Rooms tax, as they don't have a place to stay...

Sales Tax -- effects everyone regardless of ownership and residency

The point people seem to continue to miss, is that I am not saying a Sales Tax is the answer, it is a way to shift burden.... And stabilize Property Tax... This doesn't mean that property tax and values still will not go up, and it doesn't mean that Sales Tax has to be outrageous.... it simple becomes a revenue stream that raises money and effects all people that enjoy the state equally....

When you look at something like a states total tax burden, which with out argument NH is low.... how is that being calculated? Is it based on # of declared residents?, is it based on Number of personal properties in the state? I mean just where does that number come from...

We have sales and income taxes...
Would you like me to list them?

They cover State costs and get transferred to each school district, municipality, and county.

NH chose instead of using a general taxation with exemptions, to use a directed taxes with no exemptions. It is more tax efficient; and the property tax because of the mechanism of determining what must be spent - then raising only that amount - is stable and unlikely to cause tax creep caused by new programs.

[Irish mist]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

No government or business is ever going to claim they have enough money, that isn't what changing the tax structure does. What you can do with a tax structure is change where buden lies.....

Examples

property tax -- Burden lies solely with the home owner

Rooms and Meals tax -- effects everyone residents / Homeowner pay meal tax along with tourists... Tourists pay for Rooms tax, as they don't have a place to stay...

Sales Tax -- effects everyone regardless of ownership and residency

The point people seem to continue to miss, is that I am not saying a Sales Tax is the answer, it is a way to shift burden.... And stabilize Property Tax... This doesn't mean that property tax and values still will not go up, and it doesn't mean that Sales Tax has to be outrageous.... it simple becomes a revenue stream that raises money and effects all people that enjoy the state equally....

When you look at something like a states total tax burden, which with out argument NH is low.... how is that being calculated? Is it based on # of declared residents?, is it based on Number of personal properties in the state? I mean just where does that number come from...

Connecticut tried just this in 1991. The last state to do so. They instituted an income tax with the promise that property taxes would go down, and they did, for several years...and then went right back up.

Their sales tax is almost 7%. They have 7 income tax brackets.

Opening up entire new tax streams never stays static...they always expand over time. NH voters by & large get this.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Irish mist

Connecticut tried just this in 1991. The last state to do so. They instituted an income tax with the promise that property taxes would go down, and they did, for several years...and then went right back up.

Their sales tax is almost 7%. They have 7 income tax brackets.

Opening up entire new tax streams never stays static...they always expand over time. NH voters by & large get this.

I remember that and always think of Conn. when people talk about adding a tax.

[John Mercier]

I guess this Tax Attorney has it wrong.
https://www.devinemillimet.com/uploa..._m1608974_.pdf

Under 2f, he has a BET credit taken against the BPT. Which means one or the other would actually be paid.

[tummyman]

Frankly, I could care less about CT, sales taxes, or other schemes. If you ae concerned about your property taxes, there is one part of the equation that you can actually control and that is town/school EXPENSES!!! If more people got involved in the budget process and questioned needs, costs, increases, etc. then the outcome might be better. Longislander can fill in the blanks, but last year the M'boo Schools passed an increased budget at a town meeting that lasted under 10 minutes with few attendees. Question insurances and employee contribution rates, question added positions, question capital expenditures, etc. etc. All of these impact the tax rate but people just ignore the process. M'boro SAU recently dropped a $25M energy capital program out of the sky and wants voter approval in March. You could count the residents on you left hand that have attended any sessions about this. Stop bitching if you do not get involved, get informed, attend meetings and VOTE. Fix what you can and stop all the posturing about things you most likely cannot influence.

[Winilyme]

My situation's nearly exact what GarySanFran's is. I knew there'd be an increase but 72%? What a joke. Unclear what I'm getting for that. Maybe a decent fireworks display versus the fiasco this past July.

I don't care how the system works; in my mind it's flawed. I'll pay $23.6K annual for 1,500 SF seasonal. We'll make a bit of that up via reduced restaurant and other venue visits.

[John Mercier]

You are getting capital gains on your property.

Real Estate professionals say location! location! location!

Locations that have better police or fire service tend to be more highly valued. Reasonable road access increases value. And good schools increase value. But generally the lakes are creating the value.

But even nearby snowmobile trails can increase the value... that is why the Realtors promote those certain features.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by Winilyme

... I don't care how the system works; in my mind it's flawed. ...

Ignorance of how government and taxation works is VERY dangerous. That is how a state ends up like Vermont, Massachusetts's, New York, California, ...

When people are unhappy, politicians will rush in to tell you there is a "easy" fix. They will add a general income or sales tax and lower the property tax. When the money starts flowing in, other "problems" will arise and some of the money will be diverted to "help". Then it becomes NECESSARY to raise all the new tax rates AND the property tax and business taxes. Soon you notice city and county taxes have appeared and weird taxes you have never heard of before. When the tax rate become painful, debt is allowed to build up. Businesses start leaving seeking lower tax rates. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER is spending significantly or permanently slashed.

THAT is how the system works. Voters are tempted by slick politicians and gobble up the tax slop like pigs at a troth, not knowing or caring to know that they are being raised for slaughter.

[Chimi]

Any TAXPAYER in a city or town should have the right to vote on the budgets for that particular city or town. This would not allow voting for elected officials in local state or federal elections, but rather just give the taxpayer a say in how their dollars are spent in the town to which the taxes are paid. Current system is bogus and flawed, and somehow must be challenged and changed.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t...esentation.asp

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Chimi

Any TAXPAYER in a city or town should have the right to vote on the budgets for that particular city or town. This would not allow voting for elected officials in local state or federal elections, but rather just give the taxpayer a say in how their dollars are spent in the town to which the taxes are paid. Current system is bogus and flawed, and somehow must be challenged and changed.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t...esentation.asp

As a stockholder in most large corporations... and many more small ones... I am a taxpayer in thousands of towns/cities, counties, and even countries.
Do I get a vote in all of them?

As pointed out. The residents of the town that voted on the budget did not add additional costs that they did not need to add in accordance with local inflation... what occurred was the market value of some properties rose higher than others. That was not caused by the residents of the town... that was caused by the desire of non-residents.

The ''problem'', if such exists, is with non-residents.
Areas that have very little ''demand'' from non-resident generally see budgetary increases due to inflation, but do not see property valuations tilt.
Any homeowner can live here, and declare their residency here... so why aren't they doing it? The system is not stopping it... it is a choice of the property owner... so the system is not flawed; it provides a choice.

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

I guess this Tax Attorney has it wrong.
https://www.devinemillimet.com/uploa..._m1608974_.pdf

Under 2f, he has a BET credit taken against the BPT. Which means one or the other would actually be paid.

I'm not going to study your link but I can tell you we paid both every year.

[John Mercier]

You would.
You would pay the BET and deduct it from the BPT.

The NH DRA has a 2022 BET Credit Worksheet.
It deducts from the BPT owed the amount paid in BET.

The math in essence means that you would pay just the full amount of BPT.

If your BET was $100,000 and your BPT was $110,000.
You would pay BET of $100,000 and BPT of $10,000 totaling the $110,000

The higher sum.

If you paid both (no credits) the total would be $210,000

If your BET is $110,000 and your BPT is $100,000 then you pay $110,000 (Full Credit for the BPT); and carry over your BET credit for future years (up to eight in total). You still would not pay $210,000 - just the $110,000 of the higher BET.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

You would.
You would pay the BET and deduct it from the BPT.

The NH DRA has a 2022 BET Credit Worksheet.
It deducts from the BPT owed the amount paid in BET.

The math in essence means that you would pay just the full amount of BPT.

If your BET was $100,000 and your BPT was $110,000.
You would pay BET of $100,000 and BPT of $10,000 totaling the $110,000

The higher sum.

If you paid both (no credits) the total would be $210,000

If your BET is $110,000 and your BPT is $100,000 then you pay $110,000 (Full Credit for the BPT); and carry over your BET credit for future years (up to eight in total). You still would not pay $210,000 - just the $110,000 of the higher BET.

NH DRA has changed all this for future payments:

The BET is now the DAT, and BPT is now the GON.

When your DAT is $110,000 and your GON is $100,000 then you pay $110,000 (Full Credit for the DAT); and carry over your DAT credit for future years (up to eight in total). You still would not pay $210,000 - just the $110,000 of the higher DAT. So now for 2023, the $110,000 is GON.

I'll bet you didn't know of DAT.

[Major]

We have a spending problem. The size of government on all levels has escalated at a geometric rate the last 50 years. Local government is not immune. Since I moved to Laconia 46 years ago, the size of Laconia has stayed the same (around 16,000 people). Schools, city departments, and social services are 3-4 greater than when I was a kid. Enrollment in schools across the Lakes Region is decreasing, yet budgets and personnel continue to increase. And mind you, these are competitive paying jobs with the private sector, with pensions! The dreaded private sector eliminated pensions 30+ years ago because the math doesn't work. City/state employees not only get paid well, they get pensions to boot!

The things that attracted people from states like Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut and New York to our great state was the lifestyle afforded by a minimalistic government that is funded without income and sales tax. However, these people are used to bloated governments, e.g., mandated and paid for pre-K and kindergarten, which was a great topic of conversation some time ago. In NH, state and local governments are supposed to be lean and mean. If you want services, live somewhere else. Don't change what made us attractive to you in the first place.

However, at the end of the day, as the demographics of the state change (let's face it we are blue, not purple), we will eventually vote in people who will comply with the popular beliefs that if only we had a sales tax and/or an income tax, all of our problems will be solved. We won't have the homelessness and addiction problems, we won't have any problems. Unfortunately, it is not a question of if, it is a question of when.

[John Mercier]

Switching from defined benefit to defined contribution was looked at.
Because the new employees would need to have accounts that are contributed to, those contributions and return on investment could not be used to offset the current system. The State, Counties, and cities/towns would all see major increases in their contributions... they are not allowed to declare bankruptcy and transfer the cost to PBGC.

The State of NH has only been controlled by Democrats for two years of the last one hundred. That largely happened because the Republicans that took an oath the State Constitution decided to ignore that oath when it did not suffice them.
The system is not inherently Democrat-controlled or problematic when reviewed in a relative manner.

We did have a problem with the Evergreen Clause placed into the system under Thompson, but that has been at least partially resolved.

Municipal power flows from the Legislature and is limited by the Legislature.
The tax rate for Laconia is historically low - in 1978 it was 23.40; it is currently 13.91

Many non-residents are seeing still seeing us as attractive. Unfortunately, because those are not families and working age non-residents, they are making the problems worse.

As I pointed out... anyone educated in NH that is paying attention realizes that we have State income and Sales taxes. An out-of-Stater moving here may fall for the ''No general sales or income tax'' quip, but it is a gimmick; psychological marketing tactics telling us that ''general'' would be overlooked. We just use a more inherently efficient manner of those taxes. We move those rates up and down in an attempt to balance state expenditures against competition from surrounding State and now more often the northeast quad (we can never meet the east-west corporate model that has been developing in the last two decades).

You will see this all play out again... and my guess is history repeat itself since politicians never learn (basically the general public doesn't do that well either) should the NHSC uphold the Superior Court findings.

But for Meredith, the focus of the thread, it is simply the push of non-residents to own lakefront. Those properties go up in value, and the other properties see the benefit of lower/stable taxation.

I was actually stunned when the younger next door neighbors moved here from San Fransisco to ''farm''. They have six acres - enough in our town to legally have domesticated livestock. The house is a bit oversized for them, but the cost of ripping it down is more than just maintaining and upgrading the energy efficiency. They could easily afford to live on the lake, but chose a more traditional NH path.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Major

We have a spending problem. The size of government on all levels has escalated at a geometric rate the last 50 years. Local government is not immune. Since I moved to Laconia 46 years ago, the size of Laconia has stayed the same (around 16,000 people). Schools, city departments, and social services are 3-4 greater than when I was a kid. Enrollment in schools across the Lakes Region is decreasing, yet budgets and personnel continue to increase. And mind you, these are competitive paying jobs with the private sector, with pensions! The dreaded private sector eliminated pensions 30+ years ago because the math doesn't work. City/state employees not only get paid well, they get pensions to boot!

The things that attracted people from states like Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut and New York to our great state was the lifestyle afforded by a minimalistic government that is funded without income and sales tax. However, these people are used to bloated governments, e.g., mandated and paid for pre-K and kindergarten, which was a great topic of conversation some time ago. In NH, state and local governments are supposed to be lean and mean. If you want services, live somewhere else. Don't change what made us attractive to you in the first place.

However, at the end of the day, as the demographics of the state change (let's face it we are blue, not purple), we will eventually vote in people who will comply with the popular beliefs that if only we had a sales tax and/or an income tax, all of our problems will be solved. We won't have the homelessness and addiction problems, we won't have any problems. Unfortunately, it is not a question of if, it is a question of when.

I agree with you, it' a spending problem, people moved her because they liked the way it was but now everybody wants more and more government. I would be very happy to have less services and live mean and lean government wise. And spending more money on education hasn't helped.