Lake Water Usage Question

[thinkxingu]

I'm not even sure what to title this thread, but here's my question: is it legal for a landscape company to take water from the lake—using a dump truck sized vehicle—to use for its business?

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[LIforrelaxin]

That is a good question.... especially with it being for business purposes. I personally could see this going either way..... But here is food for thought.....

If a person owns water front and pulls water from the lake, and needs water for their business would anyone be the wiser?

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I'm not even sure what to title this thread, but here's my question: is it legal for a landscape company to take water from the lake—using a dump truck sized vehicle—to use for its business?

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I know Moultonborough has a culvert down at highway garage drive for them to use. It may be running dry. I cant see it being different than a lakefront house pulling water as long as it stays in NH

[fatlazyless]

Vactor trucks and other big trucks have been parallel parking along side the Meredith town docks, close to the docked Meredith Police boat and NH Fish and Game boat, at the Mount Washington dock in Meredith for years and years and years to fill their water tank with lake water. There's a shallow sandy bottom lake area between Rt 3 and the wood town dock with water depths of one to two feet where various trucks stop and load it up with lake water via their hose and gasoline pump.

Has probably been happening for one hundred years and longer? Lake Winnipesaukee holds 75-billion gallons of lake water, all sloshing around out there, so why not!

The price is right ....... free water ..... and free easy parallel parking for one big truck where the sign says "No Parking" so there's usually no hassle with parked cars blocking the lake water, pump out access. Cars that park there can probably get a $75-ticket.

[Lake Fan]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Vactor trucks and other big trucks have been parallel parking along side the Meredith town docks, close to the docked Meredith Police boat and NH Fish and Game boat, at the Mount Washington dock in Meredith for years and years and years to fill their water tank with lake water. There's a shallow sandy bottom lake area between Rt 3 and the wood town dock with water depths of one to two feet where various trucks stop and load it up with lake water via their hose and gasoline pump.

Has probably been happening for one hundred years and longer? Lake Winnipesaukee holds 75-billion gallons of lake water, all sloshing around out there, so why not!

The price is right ....... free water ..... and free easy parallel parking for one big truck where the sign says "No Parking" so there's usually no hassle with parked cars blocking the lake water, pump out access. Cars that park there can probably get a $75-ticket.

No wonder the lake is so low this year!

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I'm not even sure what to title this thread, but here's my question: is it legal for a landscape company to take water from the lake—using a dump truck sized vehicle—to use for its business?

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I saw the picture in question on Facebook. I have my issues with them as well.

[fatlazyless]

How about local fire dept trucks that have water tanks? Where does the fire dept get its water tank filled up?

Time wise, it's much much much faster to fill a truck tank from a lake than with a garden hose attached to a building water system.

The largest water tanker trailer holds about 9500-gal so truck tank water is totally miniscule compared to 75-billion gallon Lake Winnipesaukee.

[John Mercier]

https://www.des.nh.gov/water/groundw...and-withdrawal

[fatlazyless]

Is very common for Winnipesaukee waterfront homes to draw water from the lake to water their green grass lawn as opposed to watering the lawn from the drilled artesian well that provides domestic house water. Lawn water comes from the lake. House water comes from the drilled deep well.

This lake water lawn irrigation protects from over using the artisan aquifer water, deep underground, and uses the abundant lake water to create a nice lush green lawn similar to a farmer drawing water from a lake or river to water their corn crop ....... yee-haw! ...... Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine have a whole heck of a lot of ground water and this current dry spell will get lots of September-October-November rain fall. That's the way it always happens. I guarantee it!

[FlyingScot]

All these points about houses and towns may be true/fair. But none address Think's question of legality. Waterfront owners have certain riparian rights, such as the aforementioned irrigation systems, and the rights to store your boat and put in a dock and swim raft, that are not available to others. I'm not addressing fairness here, just the law

[Breakwater]

I offer the following document from the NH Lakes Advisory Committee. A nice summary...

https://www.lmac.des.nh.gov/sites/g/...d-nh-lakes.pdf

[fatlazyless]

Where the Lake Winnipesaukee water ....... http://www.newburyport.com/look-mout...mack-live-cam/ ..... flows into the Atlantic Ocean, Bay of Maine in Newburyport, Massachusetts.

Out west, the Colorado River runs through Colorado, New Mexico, Utah, Wyoming, Arizona, California, Nevada, and northern Mexico and almost always runs dry before emptying into the Pacific Ocean in Mexico while Lake Winnipesaukee water flows down the Winnipesaukee River, Pemigewasset River and Merrimack River to the Atlantic Ocean, a distance of 127.5-miles.

Is this an apples and oranges comparison, or what? Betcha you cannot spell Pemigewasset correct without looking. The Pemigewasset River flows from Profile Lake in Franconia Notch State Park in Franconia, NH and goes for 65.0-miles south where it merges with the Winnipesaukee River in Franklin, NH to become the Merrimack River which flows for 117-miles through southern N.H. and northeast Massachusetts to Newburyport, Mass where it flows into the Bay of Maine, Atlantic Ocean.

Looks like a quiet calm day today at the spot where the Lake Winnipesaukee water flows into the Atlantic Ocean. If you recently lost a paddle while out canoeing Lake Winnipesaukee you will most definitely see it float past on this web cam ...... ho-ho-ho .......
.............

Current water temperature in Merrimack River ...... http://www.seatemperature.net/rivers...errimack-river

Current ocean water temperature off Newburyport, Mass ..... http://www.seatemperature.info/newbu...mperature.html

On Wednesday, August 27, 2025 at 1-pm the Merrimack River water temp is reported to be 75.0 and the Atlantic Ocean, Bay of Maine water temperature is 64.2.

[dpg]

Not totally sure why anyone would care but whatever. Perhaps during real extreme circumstances like a major drought or something effecting public safety.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

All these points about houses and towns may be true/fair. But none address Think's question of legality. Waterfront owners have certain riparian rights, such as the aforementioned irrigation systems, and the rights to store your boat and put in a dock and swim raft, that are not available to others. I'm not addressing fairness here, just the law

I posted the link for the legality.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by dpg

Not totally sure why anyone would care but whatever. Perhaps during real extreme circumstances like a major drought or something effecting public safety.

As my comments on The Dive a few years ago reflected, I have a fundamental issue with business entities profiting off of public resources.

For example, if the landscape company were taking water from the lake rather than paying for delivery, a well, public water supply, etc.

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[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

As my comments on The Dive a few years ago reflected, I have a fundamental issue with business entities profiting off of public resources.

Interesting...what about the Mount??...Fishing guides on the lake or any lake for that matter??...Boating instructors??... Every marina on the lake???...

Dan

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Interesting...what about the Mount??...Fishing guides on the lake or any lake for that matter??...Boating instructors??... Every marina on the lake???...

Dan

Marinas are different from your other examples because they own the waterfront land, but I think all of them should pay fees/taxes commensurate with their use of the public property.

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[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Marinas are different from your other examples because they own the waterfront land, but I think all of them should pay fees/taxes commensurate with their use of the public property.

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I guess I'm not following...if you live in the state of NH the Lake already is yours up to the high water mark as well as all the public launches for access.

Are you saying there should be an additional tax that locals have to pay to use the lake resource for boating instruction, guiding for fish, or any non waterfront marina that rents boats or makes any money on lake related items?? All these places are already paying state tax on any profit they make so you think there should be something additional added??

Honestly just curious...

Thanks!

Dan

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

I guess I'm not following...if you live in the state of NH the Lake already is yours up to the high water mark as well as all the public launches for access.

Are you saying there should be an additional tax that locals have to pay to use the lake resource for boating instruction, guiding for fish, or any non waterfront marina that rents boats or makes any money on lake related items?? All these places are already paying state tax on any profit they make so you think there should be something additional added??

Honestly just curious...

Thanks!

Dan

I'm not sure what the exact formula should be, and maybe the tax rate accounts for it (don't think so), but I don't think businesses should be able to profit off public resources freely.

The Dive, to me, is the most egregious example as it disturbs the lake floor, adds noise, and absorbs a huge amount of space...while profiting.

Public property is for public enjoyment, not individual/corporate profit.

Edited to add: I hear similar complaints from restaurant owners in regards to food trucks that pay no overhead parking on the street (a public resources).

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[Descant]

Our 960 lakes and 95 state parks make tourism one of our largest industries. Operations like Hampton Beach and Cannon Mountain support other parks so they are free to you. Unlike other states, our parks do not use tax dollarsx for operations. Fish and Game is largely supported by license fees. They stock the fish that give jobs to fishing guides. It's a lot more intertwined than somebody "profiting" off the lakes and mountains. For some of your restaurant friends: Most local zoning requires a certain number of parking spaces for the patalell number of seafs/tables. When the city allowed lots morte tables on the public sidewalk without new zoning exceptions or more parking, the restaurants did not complain. Their BPT might have increased, but their properrty tax was stable. (Best food truck award goes to Pancho Goldsteins Bagels and Tacos). Remember that the fishing guide probably pays BPT (income tax) in a state with no "personal" income tax. AND, I don't think The Dive ever really made much money.

[Winilyme]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

The Dive, to me, is the most egregious example as it disturbs the lake floor, adds noise, and absorbs a huge amount of space...while profiting.

I haven't seen The Dive on the lake this year. Has it been business as usual for them?

[thinkxingu]

[QUOTE=Winilyme;402540]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

The Dive, to me, is the most egregious example as it disturbs the lake floor, adds noise, and absorbs a huge amount of space...while profiting.

I haven't seen The Dive on the lake this year. Has it been business as usual for them?

It's been at the West Alton sandbar EVERY time we've gone out there this summer.

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[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Descant

Our 960 lakes and 95 state parks make tourism one of our largest industries. Operations like Hampton Beach and Cannon Mountain support other parks so they are free to you. Unlike other states, our parks do not use tax dollarsx for operations. Fish and Game is largely supported by license fees. They stock the fish that give jobs to fishing guides. It's a lot more intertwined than somebody "profiting" off the lakes and mountains. For some of your restaurant friends: Most local zoning requires a certain number of parking spaces for the patalell number of seafs/tables. When the city allowed lots morte tables on the public sidewalk without new zoning exceptions or more parking, the restaurants did not complain. Their BPT might have increased, but their properrty tax was stable. (Best food truck award goes to Pancho Goldsteins Bagels and Tacos). Remember that the fishing guide probably pays BPT (income tax) in a state with no "personal" income tax. AND, I don't think The Dive ever really made much money.

The fishing guide wouldn't because of the personal exemption/etc.
And tourism, though considered a major State revenue, isn't really a large part of our economy. The State estimates it around 10-12 percent with much of that being internal consumption.

Withdrawal from the lake by pump isn't really as damaging as withdrawal from an aquifer for large consumption. Many cities and towns draw all their water from the lake. The pump truck is just putting less pressure on the filter and distribution systems. Does a lawn really need the lake water filtered through RO? If the lake water is full of too much phosphorus and nitrogen, would pumping it on plants that filter those nutrients make more sense?

It is just more logical to do it the way they are doing it.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

I posted the link for the legality.

Ah, thanks. Without any text, I just glossed over it the first time

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I'm not sure what the exact formula should be, and maybe the tax rate accounts for it (don't think so), but I don't think businesses should be able to profit off public resources freely.

The Dive, to me, is the most egregious example as it disturbs the lake floor, adds noise, and absorbs a huge amount of space...while profiting.

Public property is for public enjoyment, not individual/corporate profit.

Edited to add: I hear similar complaints from restaurant owners in regards to food trucks that pay no overhead parking on the street (a public resources).

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I love food trucks, they offer a fundamentally different experience than a restaurant, and for folks watching their wallets they can be really important.

And I loathe The Dive on aesthetic grounds, so I'll leave that aside too.

But your point on marinas is very interesting--they house a huge number of boats per foot of waterfront, far in excess of what a homeowner is allowed, and that has created a very lucrative opportunity off of a scarce public resource. So like you, I do not know the math, but I think the public should get a piece of that action.

I don't want to veer to national politics, but it does seem like a couple of D's are in support of an idea that is not too different than the tariffs and stakes in publicly traded companies now being advanced by the White House. While an R is opposed. Kinda funny in both directions

[ApS]

Evaporation from the lake removes pure water molecules off the lake's surface and relatively impure water is left behind.

It only makes sense to reduce accumulated salts of potassium, sodium, aluminum and nitrogen by pumping from the lake. To draw well water from acquifers, their relatively pure status is compromised, if not run dry. (!)

Being heavier than water molecules, why doesn't Lakeport draw contaminated lakewater from the nearest/deepest parts of the lake rather than drain off relatively pure water off the surface?

"Contaminated", i.e., salts from soft-water treatment installations, lawn fertilizers, construction sites, razed woodlands, humans, wildlife, and roadway salt.

What is the status of the spillway at Lakeport, anyway?

[John Mercier]

Lakeport doesn't take it from the surface.

[jeffk]

I think it can be a complex relationship between a business using public resources, like a marina, and the benefits for local society as a whole. For example, without marinas there would be far less service for boats, gas for boats, storage for boats. ... Without all that, would people come to the lake. buy homes on the water, rent homes during the summer, travel by water to various locations to go to restaurants, shop in various venues ...? The boating public's support of other businesses (upheld by marine services) enables them to pay their taxes and provide jobs.

Boating, and the infrastructure to support it, is an essential part of the lake economy.

It is very simplistic to fuss about the marina's use of the lake to carry out their business and ignore the very significant contribution they make to the lakes region economy as a whole. Further, it is too complex to unpack exactly how much that contribution is and try to grab money back from them for the use of public resources. Maybe they should get a rebate payment for supporting the economy?

[retired]

I've seen tanker trucks with "Pool Water" on the side take water from the Winnipesaukee River on multiple occasions, so I guess it is OK.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by retired

I've seen tanker trucks with "Pool Water" on the side take water from the Winnipesaukee River on multiple occasions, so I guess it is OK.

Ok, so I guess this is what I was wondering about because why is it ok for a business to suck up free water from a public resource and sell it?

I mean, I can't walk into the town/state/national forest, cut some trees down, and use them for my own heat...never mind sell it. Right?!

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[John Mercier]

Sell? No.
For your own usage, the national forest has a permitting process.
You would need to check with the State, as State Forest is different than State Park management.
Town, the town clerk should be able to give you the rules.

[tis]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Ok, so I guess this is what I was wondering about because why is it ok for a business to suck up free water from a public resource and sell it?

I mean, I can't walk into the town/state/national forest, cut some trees down, and use them for my own heat...never mind sell it. Right?!

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You make a good point but I think the trucking is the bulk of the cost is it not?

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by tis

You make a good point but I think the trucking is the bulk of the cost is it not?

It may be, but they're still getting the public's product they're selling for free.

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[John Mercier]

Maybe they aren't selling the product, just charging for shipping and handling?
Sort of like FedEx.

[hemlock]

https://www.des.nh.gov/sites/g/files.../dwgb-1-17.pdf

[Descant]

Thank you, Hemlock. Wish this had been post #2 .
Enjoy the weekend.

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by hemlock

https://www.des.nh.gov/sites/g/files.../dwgb-1-17.pdf

Thank you hemlock hope this answers the OP's questions.

[fatlazyless]

This here thread ..... http://www.newenglandhistoricalsocie...operty-rights/ .... done recalls the 1859 Winnipesaukee Water War.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by hemlock

https://www.des.nh.gov/sites/g/files.../dwgb-1-17.pdf

Thanks for posting—that was a great summation.

Happy Labor Day Weekend, all!

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[ApS]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Lakeport doesn't take it from the surface.

Paugus Bay doesn't approach the 160-feet in depth needed to flush the lake of undesirable chemical compounds.

[John Mercier]

Laconia has RO.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Laconia has RO.

From the Laconia Water Treatment Plant Facility ...... http://www.laconianh.gov/658/water-t...plant-facility ..... it shows:

1 - coagulation/clarification

2 - filtration

3 - chemicals/disinfection

4 - flushing/backwash

5 - storage/distibution

but does NOT show reverse osmosis so it must NOT have reverse osmosis.

If you really want reverse osmosis is possible to install it for your individual residence. The Hannaford's in Gilford has a reverse osmosis water vending machine in their front vestibule that is hooked up to Laconia water and costs 50-cents/gallon. You need to bring your own water container like a three or five gallon water container for camping.

[John Mercier]

For some reason I thought I had seen a public meeting that they were discussing it.

Guess I will be getting the home systems for the kids as a Christmas present.

I always worried about there pipes being a problem, so I should have done this some time ago.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

For some reason I thought I had seen a public meeting that they were discussing it.

Guess I will be getting the home systems for the kids as a Christmas present.

I always worried about there pipes being a problem, so I should have done this some time ago.

The Kinetico from Second Wind and other dealers is excellent. We stumbled onto them when we bought a house with one already installed in the late 90s, and we've had them in Mass and NH ever since.

If you do get them, it is not difficult to replace the filters yourself, so you do not need the annual or bi-annual service visit

[fatlazyless]

For fifty cents, two quarters, you can take home a gallon of Laconia water from the reverse osmosis vending machine in the entry vestibule at the Hannaford's in nearby Gilford, next to Lowe's.

Bring an empty water container. This used to cost 25-cents/gal but was increased to 50-cents maybe two years ago.

For 50-cents at the Market Basket in Plymouth, you can buy a very cold 16-oz plastic bottle of cola, orange, ginger, or root beer soda. Lately, they have been selling out of the cola flavor and the shelf space will be empty. Similar item at Hannaford's is like $2.19 or 2.29.

[Descant]

I rermember there being springs at various places around the state where people would bring gallon jugs to fill up and take back to MA. One was on Rt 11b in Gilford. I remember peopel asking me to fill jugs from the spring on Welch Island to bring to them in Laconia, late 50's.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Descant

I rermember there being springs at various places around the state where people would bring gallon jugs to fill up and take back to MA. One was on Rt 11b in Gilford. I remember peopel asking me to fill jugs from the spring on Welch Island to bring to them in Laconia, late 50's.

There's still one in Mont Vernon/Francestown that I drive by weekly.

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