lake level

[rsmlp]

It seems we have this issue yearly but the lake is very low, not having any appreciable rain since mid June and temps very high (next Mon-Wed expected to be 92-93). This of course evaporates water that much faster. We are in the the period of time when a course mistake could easily result in damage. How many times have you been boating and notice a boat on the wrong side of markers? You can more easily get away with this in June than later in the year so careful out there!

[TomC]

Originally Posted by rsmlp

....How many times have you been boating and notice a boat on the wrong side of markers? You can more easily get away with this in June than later in the year so careful out there!

Many times, especially when there are black and red top spar buoys indicating that the course should go N/E or S/W of a hazard, and a novice boater interprets this a a channel marker and heads between then - right at the rock or shoal.. ouch!

[thinkxingu]

Here in The North, every single time we're out.

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[retired]

The witches beckon

[Sue Doe-Nym]

It seems to us that the lake level is lower than usual for this time of year, which will be really infuriating if we have to pull the boat during the absolute peak time for boating on the lake!

[WinnisquamZ]

Absolutely no rain will do that


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[rsmlp]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Absolutely no rain will do that


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So will extremely warm weather causing greater evaporation. lake level alarmingly for thsi time of year.

[WinnisquamZ]

Oh course. Many of us can’t get the boat off a lift this low. Grass is brunt and losing ground plants. Started to water a small area of grass to keep the yard usable, but it’s seriously an issue.


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[ishoot308]

Here’s Bizer’s chart showing where we are currently at as compared to previous years… Black line is 2025…

Dan

[rsmlp]

So since about 2020, it seems the lake has been very low this time of year more often than not. We are at a spot on the lake where we have bedrock beneath the stern of our boat that sits at about 46" at full lake so about 32" today. We have a 26' i/o bowrider that is SUPPOSED draft only 18" dry but in actuality when fueled sits about 2' down and with the outdrive raised as much as I dare to maintain some thrust the skag sits about 28" down. We are on the windward side of the lake and even with our breakwater the boat rocks quite a bit on windy days. Hence, the problem. I just pulled my boat and that really upsets teh fam (and me). I've exhausted all alternatives to my lakefront options. The only option that remains is a different boat. I'm considering the same size outboard with an outboard engine OR a pontoon. Specifically, a new Chaparral osx 250 or a Harris 230 tritoon.

Any input is appreciated.

[mofn]

RSMLP:
I’m a pontoon snob, go with the Harris!
BUT:
Only a triton, with the largest toons they offer.
Straked & skinned
No less than a 10 foot top, I wish I went 12.
Rent one for a day and see what you like or dislike on the floor plan. To me the 6-foot flip-flop seat on the rear all around waste. Try different h.p. versions if they will allow? There is a happy medium where it becomes diminishing returns H.P. to mph/gas.
At home if you go pontoon draw/tape out the playpen size and insert cardboard cutouts if you want to go w/ a plan you pick out.
Good luck

[rsmlp]

Originally Posted by mofn

RSMLP:
I’m a pontoon snob, go with the Harris!
BUT:
Only a triton, with the largest toons they offer.
Straked & skinned
No less than a 10 foot top, I wish I went 12.
Rent one for a day and see what you like or dislike on the floor plan. To me the 6-foot flip-flop seat on the rear all around waste. Try different h.p. versions if they will allow? There is a happy medium where it becomes diminishing returns H.P. to mph/gas.
At home if you go pontoon draw/tape out the playpen size and insert cardboard cutouts if you want to go w/ a plan you pick out.
Good luck

Straked & skinned?

[rsmlp]

leaning in that direction buy certain members of the fam think they're the "minivans of the lake"!

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by rsmlp

leaning in that direction buy certain members of the fam think they're the "minivans of the lake"!

The pontoon/tritoon is absolutely the minivan of the lake: spacious, comfortable, flexible, etc. We LOVE ours and use it for everything.

The only issue is power and speed. If getting places matters to you, get the biggest possible engine. The absolute biggest. Without question.

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[Garcia]

Originally Posted by rsmlp

leaning in that direction buy certain members of the fam think they're the "minivans of the lake"!

Absolutely a minivan - and no matter how much you dress it up or increase horsepower it's still a minivan. Nothing wrong with that.

[rsmlp]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

The pontoon/tritoon is absolutely the minivan of the lake: spacious, comfortable, flexible, etc. We LOVE ours and use it for everything.

The only issue is power and speed. If getting places matters to you, get the biggest possible engine. The absolute biggest. Without question.

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100% agreement.

[ishoot308]

Love my “mini van”! She gets up and goes better than most non “mini vans” with 600 horses!! They aren’t your grandpa’s floating barn doors anymore! Need very little water at my dock to tie up also!

Dan

[TiltonBB]

As with any boat, what you buy depends upon how you plan to use it. I have had several pontoon boats and what was most important to me was seating and room. 26 Feet and 300 HP is fine, even when loaded up. I wanted room for family and friends.

The flip back and forth seat backs didn't seem too useful and sinks and bar stools weren't too appealing either. The two Captain's chairs were something that was important. I have never wanted any boat where the left front seat is a bench that faces backwards.

We take them to Florida in the winter and often take 3 other couples out with us. The boats never seem crowded. Even going out on the Gulf from Marco Island to Sanibel has never been and issue and I am surprised at how good the ride is. They are very stable. In my experience they use a lot less fuel than an I/O too.

Other than the ride the biggest difference with a V hull boat is the lack of a full windshield and no real ability to close the front wind off while underway. So, early or late in the NH summer season you have to dress a little warmer some days.

(Last winter I towed to Miami, spent a couple of days, and went in and out of the Haulover Inlet. If you know, you know! )

[BillTex]

I run an off shore sport fishing boat in RI and chuckled when the Admiral said she wanted a toon for the lake house.
Know what? I love it! It’s like driving your living room down the lake! They are a ball.

Question: is Winni dam controlled?
We are on Ossipee, which is dam controlled, and never worry about water level.

[Winilyme]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

and went in and out of the Haulover Inlet. If you know, you know! )

Did you wave to the camera?

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by BillTex

...
Question: is Winni dam controlled?
We are on Ossipee, which is dam controlled, and never worry about water level.

Yes, there is a dam in Lakeport/Laconia. It is running at its minimum. There is a power plant just past the dam so they cannot close the dam completely. At 250 cfs, compared to the max of about 2000 cfs that lowers the lake about an inch per day, it probably spills about 3" a month. If the dam was completely closed, the lake level would probably be much better.

As others have said, no rain and hot weather evaporation is the issue. As best I can tell we are about 6" below normal for this time of year.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

The pontoon/tritoon is absolutely the minivan of the lake: spacious, comfortable, flexible, etc. We LOVE ours and use it for everything.

The only issue is power and speed. If getting places matters to you, get the biggest possible engine. The absolute biggest. Without question.

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I'm a bow rider convert, love my pontoon. As I get older, I find it so much easier to get in and out of, maintain, and keep clean.

[SAMIAM]

Originally Posted by rsmlp

So since about 2020, it seems the lake has been very low this time of year more often than not. We are at a spot on the lake where we have bedrock beneath the stern of our boat that sits at about 46" at full lake so about 32" today. We have a 26' i/o bowrider that is SUPPOSED draft only 18" dry but in actuality when fueled sits about 2' down and with the outdrive raised as much as I dare to maintain some thrust the skag sits about 28" down. We are on the windward side of the lake and even with our breakwater the boat rocks quite a bit on windy days. Hence, the problem. I just pulled my boat and that really upsets teh fam (and me). I've exhausted all alternatives to my lakefront options. The only option that remains is a different boat. I'm considering the same size outboard with an outboard engine OR a pontoon. Specifically, a new Chaparral osx 250 or a Harris 230 tritoon.

Any input is appreciated.

Mooring whips??

[SAMIAM]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

The pontoon/tritoon is absolutely the minivan of the lake: spacious, comfortable, flexible, etc. We LOVE ours and use it for everything.

The only issue is power and speed. If getting places matters to you, get the biggest possible engine. The absolute biggest. Without question.

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Absolutely….at least a 300hp. Our Bennington Tritons drives like a sport boat

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Biggd

...so much easier to maintain, and keep clean.

THIS. Every single time I think about moving to something different than my tritoon, I remember that the only maintenance I do is a wipe down of the seats and application of 303 twice a summer, some petroleum jelly on the cover snaps, and a power wash once a season (done by MVM). That's all for the last ten years, and the boat looks new.

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[Biggd]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

THIS. Every single time I think about moving to something different than my tritoon, I remember that the only maintenance I do is a wipe down of the seats and application of 303 twice a summer, some petroleum jelly on the cover snaps, and a power wash once a season (done by MVM). That's all for the last ten years, and the boat looks new.

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Halfway through the season I grab my scrub brush, anchor in a calm location and float around in my life jacket scrubbing the toons while everyone is swimming.

[rsmlp]

Super helpful, people! Anyone have anything negative to say? I figured they could be a chilly ride occasionally. Bring army blankets! Yes, we have mooring whips and yes, I'll get the biggest damn engine it will carry!

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by rsmlp

Super helpful, people! Anyone have anything negative to say? I figured they could be a chilly ride occasionally. Bring army blankets! Yes, we have mooring whips and yes, I'll get the biggest damn engine it will carry!

Any boat without a full cuddy cabin or enclosure will be a chilly ride when its cold out. My pontoon has a full windshield and is about as useful as other boats with full windshields but the front area between the two helms also has a snap in windscreen (it can be seen in pic above) which actually works quite well at keeping the wind off you. I'm sure you could have a custom enclosure made just not sure its worth it and depends on how much time you are using your boat during those cold spring and fall days...

For those cold and rainy / bad weather days, we rely on our Eastern 22 to get us to and from our island home...

Good luck with your decision!

Dan

[imyourhuckleberry]

I'd go with the chaparral. I'm near the Kona where it's very shallow right now and considering making the switch from a jet boat, given the propensity to suck up bottom sediment and debris which damages the jet pumps.

Actually considering going back to a prop which I can at least trim high and avoid this stuff. A jet boat gives no such options - you just have to plow through it to get to your dock.

[MeredithMan]

First time ever pulling the plug on the boating season in August. Almost touching bottom at the dock already. Folks at the marina said they've had a couple customers phone them stating they don't have enough water to get their boat off their lift, so they had to go save them.

[Winilyme]

Originally Posted by MeredithMan

First time ever pulling the plug on the boating season in August. Almost touching bottom at the dock already. Folks at the marina said they've had a couple customers phone them stating they don't have enough water to get their boat off their lift, so they had to go save them.

How exactly do they save them? I assume there isn't enough water to motor off the lift so they need to be pulled off? And if there's not enough water behind the lift...what then?

[MeredithMan]

Originally Posted by Winilyme

How exactly do they save them? I assume there isn't enough water to motor off the lift so they need to be pulled off? And if there's not enough water behind the lift...what then?

They didn't specifically say, but my assumption was pull it / tow it off...???

[WinnisquamZ]

Seriously, big problem for many. Was able to pull my lift back a foot. But, after Labor Day it’s coming out


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[nj2nh]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

It seems to us that the lake level is lower than usual for this time of year, which will be really infuriating if we have to pull the boat during the absolute peak time for boating on the lake!

We are pulling ours out on Wednesday. Not risking it getting any lower.


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[Jeanzb1]

Ran into a friend today whose boat is at Silver Sands in Gilford. He had to put on waders and shovel two feet deep of muck underneath his boat in order to get out.


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[Garcia]

The change from last weekend is quite noticeable. Much bigger step to get in and out.

[thinkxingu]

Decided to bring Boatie Two in today.

The combination of kids' activities these next weeks, low water levels, and friends who could use our beach spot after being beached at theirs made the decision for us.

The earliest we've been done for the season, but at least I don't have to think about whether things will get worse.

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[Biggd]

Had to position everyone to the back of the pontoon to get the front out of the sand. The first time I've had to do that in my 11 years here. I usually leave it in until October, but it looks like I'll be taking it out earlier this season.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

The powers that be who control the lake outflow really botched everything for this season’s boating, and this is not the first time that this has occurred. There was an overreaction after the Spring rains, when lake levels were exceptionally high, and those in charge had to release an enormous amount of water to alleviate flooding concerns. However, it seems there was a huge over correction. I am frustrated and unhappy, not just because our own boating season has ended, but there are MANY people who enjoy water activities during September, and they won’t have that privilege this year. It’s hard to believe that with today’s technology, etc., that there’s not a satisfactory solution for monitoring the lake levels.

[John Mercier]

They only have accurate ten day forecasting.
So long periods without any rain creates a problem.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

They only have accurate ten day forecasting.
So long periods without any rain creates a problem.

Your response proves my point; it’s astonishing that current technology either isn’t available or isn’t being implemented for monitoring lake levels.

[John Mercier]

That is current technology.

Precipitation forecasts beyond ten days are not accurate.

The forecast is for the area to get about 1/3 of an inch in the next ten days.
That may not cover the minimum outflow over that ten day period.

Not really anything they can do.

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

That is current technology.

Precipitation forecasts beyond ten days are not accurate.

The forecast is for the area to get about 1/3 of an inch in the next ten days.
That may not cover the minimum outflow over that ten day period.

Not really anything they can do.

John is correct. The technology to monitor the lake level is there. Seasonal forecasting of the weather is not. There are several reasons why. The equations for forecasting are very complex and some terms in the equation are tossed out so they can be solved. This introduces error. Also, the data going into the numerical weather prediction models are not necessarily 100% accurate. This introduces error. And there are data sparse regions where data that goes into the models is derived from satellite data. Another source of error.

[jeffk]

At the end of June, the lake level was almost EXACTLY where it should have been to match the 40+ year mean targeting. I don't call that "botching" management of the high spring rain amounts. We came out of Spring right where we should have been.

Since then, there has been a dearth of rain, especially in August. We are in drought conditions. The dam output has been at the lowest possible level, 250 CFS, for all of August and since mid July. Early July was at 350 CFS with some brief bounces to 600 CFS which I would suspect was associated with maintenance efforts. For all intents, the dam has been as "shut" as much as it can be for the last 2 months.

The problem has NOT been mismanagement. The problem is NO RAIN. You can't "manage" water resources that are not delivered by mother nature.

[jeffk]

Another interesting factoid is that average rainfall in NH for July and August is 3 to 4 inches per month. The dam minimal output at 250 CFS lets about 4 inches a month flow out. So, the normal dam output for July/August would balance average rainfall. Obviously with runoff and other factors it's much more complex than this but it gives you an idea of a reasonably balanced system.

Add in evaporation effects and other lake outflows and you would see a gradual drop in lake level over the summer, which, on average, is what we normally experience.

This has NOT been an average summer.

[Geneva Point]

Sue Doe-Nym is right in my opinion. Its been mismanaged since the beginning of July regardless of having only a 10 day forecast and lack of long range data. There hasn't been any appreciable rain in the 10 day forecast for 2 months. If the dam managers had been looking at each 10 day period, like I have, they would have seen no rain each time and taken steps to maintain better water levels for this drought period.

[TomC]

There is a contractual minimum discharge rate for the dam. This outflow is a regulated 250 cubic cfs to support downstream aquatic needs and meet deeded water rights. This is where the flow has been kept now for 6-7 weeks. nothing more could have been done...

[John Mercier]

They can't go below the minimum.

So no rain in the forecast still requires the minimum outflow.

Which means the level goes down... and will continue to go down... until the forecast has more rain than the minimum output.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by Geneva Point

... they would have seen no rain each time and taken steps to maintain better water levels for this drought period.

Ummm, if the dam output is already the lowest it can go (pretty much through all July and August), how exactly could they have done that?

Bucket brigade? Everyone visiting the lake has to bring 100 gallons of water to contribute?

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

Your response proves my point; it’s astonishing that current technology either isn’t available or isn’t being implemented for monitoring lake levels.

The technology to address this would be in better forecasting by the National Weather Service. This is one of those problems that is so difficult and without a big enough financial return to any one party that the only way to improve is federal government $

[LIforrelaxin]

Folks, I hate to brake this to you, but this is really all pretty normal, and the lake isn't as low as you think......

504.32 -- Full lake
503.32 -- Lake 1' down
502.32 -- lake 2' down

Lake is currently at 502.80

Yes it is usually higher this time of year, but when you have little rain, what do you expect....

If you expect to have a long boating season, you need to make sure you have good water even at the low side of the operating band which is 502.32.... for me with a 40' season dock, I still have room at that point.... not much but still usable.... If you can prove why you need an exception to the 40' season dock rule, DES does have allowances to have a longer dock in certain cases...

With that said if you are in a Marina, you have other headaches....if you have to pull your boat, hold off on winterizing it if you have it on a trailer, it will rain and the lake will come right back up.....

[Descant]

Generally, tghe DES goal is to be full pool in early June. For me, I'd aim for full pool mid to late July. Then evaporation and 250 CFS outflow would bring us down to a reasonable level (say 6-8" below full on Labor Day, and slow release until Columbus Day. Some years ago I had a related dsiscussion with the dam bureau manager. I suggested that people are now paying substantial sume for their boiats and they have a reasonable expectation of use in the fall, after Labor Day. His response was "Oh. We never thought about that. We always think boating ends on Lablr Day."
A 10 day forecast, in my mind, is relatively meaningless. We have records going back decades and should be managing based on those averages. I think that is mostly what DES does.
On the bright side, no rtain means little surface water run off and less septic leaching. We haven't heard much about beaches closed for e coli and cyanobacteria this year.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by jeffk

Ummm, if the dam output is already the lowest it can go (pretty much through all July and August), how exactly could they have done that?

Bucket brigade? Everyone visiting the lake has to bring 100 gallons of water to contribute?

Ha ha! Very amusing….but there’s no need to mock those who seriously wonder why there isn’t a better and more reliable system for regulating the water level, given advances in modern technology. It appears that the SWAG system is the one currently in place.

[secondcurve]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

The technology to address this would be in better forecasting by the National Weather Service. This is one of those problems that is so difficult and without a big enough financial return to any one party that the only way to improve is federal government $

There are deeded water rights. We are at minimum outflow to be in compliance with these water rights. No one can forecast the weather long range. Money doesn't matter in this equation.

[secondcurve]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

Ha ha! Very amusing….but there’s no need to mock those who seriously wonder why there isn’t a better and more reliable system for regulating the water level, given advances in modern technology. It appears that the SWAG system is the one currently in place.

There isn't. Short of building a new reservoir.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Okay…. I am not happy with the consensus, but I surrender! It’s hard to believe that we need to rely on what seems to be archaic stuff, but hopefully something better will surface in the future. Here’s to higher lake levels! 👏🏼👍

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

Ha ha! Very amusing….but there’s no need to mock those who seriously wonder why there isn’t a better and more reliable system for regulating the water level, given advances in modern technology. It appears that the SWAG system is the one currently in place.

I find it amusing that people speculate about weather forecasting or other technology that could manage the water level better. There are constraints on the management of the lake level that cannot be overcome without absurd levels of effort and expense or damaging results because of the attempt.

First, the amount of water coming into the lake is controlled by snow melt and rain. We are at the mercy of the weather.

The amount of water removed from the lake occurs through numerous runoffs and evaporation. The only control on this process is the Lakeport dam. Water cannot be stored up in the lake beyond a certain point without doing damage. So even if we looked ahead for 2 months and saw a drought, we could only hang on to only so much extra water. Further, once the dam output is at 250 CFS we CANNOT go lower, as noted in other comments. That still drops the lake by about 4 inches per month.

There is a 40+ year history of the mean lake level and DES manages the level to approximate that mean. There are numerous reasons for that. For example, the level is dropped in the Fall and Winter to allow for management of snow melt and Spring rains. The lake is allowed to “fill up” until mid-June to allow for summer activities.

Here is a summary of what happened this year.

~June 15 is targeted to be Full Pool. The mean level drops from this point on.

On June 18 we had Full Pool, close to the target. The dam output was 1000 CFS.

On June 23, dam output dropped to 600 CFS.

On June 26, dam output dropped to 350 CFS.

Within 10 days, June 18 – June 26, the dam output was dialed back to almost minimum.

On July 15, dam output dropped to 250 CFS, the minimum possible.

The lake level on July 15 was only 1” below the 40 years mean. That seems to be pretty reasonable. Further, since the dam was at minimum output, THERE WAS NOTHING FURTHER THAT COULD BE DONE TO RAISE THE LAKE LEVEL, even if we knew for sure what the weather was going to do.

The result seems to blame the DES for “mismanagement” and to curse the weather Gods.

The mean level of the lake normally drops about 10.5” from Full Pool by now. We are down another 7.5” entirely due to lack of rain through July and August. The dam output has been minimum all that time. Even if given foreknowledge of no rain, there is nothing else we could have done.

If we had retained 7” of water from the Spring rains, we would have had NO WAKE conditions on the lake which comes with its own set of problems and damage. There is no forecasting technology that can be accurate for two months ahead so we can not know.

If someone can state specific solutions that could/should be applied, do so. I don’t see any. We are nowhere near forecasts that can go out all summer. The dam was managed to reasonable standards based on existing constraints. The weather has caused lake levels to approach the most extreme results in 43 years (there has been worse). The results are what they are, even if they create difficulties.

Griping and blaming doesn't solve problems and some problems are not solvable.

[Descant]

I agree with Jeff K to a point. The goal for full pond should be mid-to late July, not mid-June. However, comparing the level to a mean from the past instead of to a current goal is where I believe the problem lies. Ther is rarfely a reason to go to outflow of 1000 cfs in June since all the downstream needs are already met by snow melt and spring rain. Once in awhile there is a late June thgunderstorm that drops a lot of water. Fine, but there isz no reason at that point that we can't go 0.5""-1.5" above full pond. When we go lake wide No Wake, it is much higher thanm that.

In sum, the mistake is in comparing levels to an old mean instead of to a current, new goal.

[secondcurve]

Originally Posted by Descant

I agree with Jeff K to a point. The goal for full pond should be mid-to late July, not mid-June. However, comparing the level to a mean from the past instead of to a current goal is where I believe the problem lies. Ther is rarfely a reason to go to outflow of 1000 cfs in June since all the downstream needs are already met by snow melt and spring rain. Once in awhile there is a late June thgunderstorm that drops a lot of water. Fine, but there isz no reason at that point that we can't go 0.5""-1.5" above full pond. When we go lake wide No Wake, it is much higher thanm that.

In sum, the mistake is in comparing levels to an old mean instead of to a current, new goal.

So your solution is to squeeze in another 1/2 inch to 1 1/2 inch at the full level. Ok. Maybe that’s possible I don’t know but even if is possible would that really make a difference today? I don’t think so. Any other ideas?

[TomC]

Find out why/where that minimum outflow of 250 cfs goes and if it still has relevance. If there is an economic need (I have a possibly faulty memory that its to ensure sufficient power generation to someone) - then whoever has this deeded flow rate could be compensated by the state, or a small shoreline town tax, voluntary contribution, or some other subsidy. Then the dam could be closed and if the 4"/month drop rate at 250 cfs is accurate, the lake would have 6"-8" more water in it with all other things being equal...

[WinnisquamZ]

Reading all these comments and not one of you mentioned climate change as a problem. Excellent thread people keep up the good work


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[BillTex]

Originally Posted by Geneva Point

Sue Doe-Nym is right in my opinion. Its been mismanaged since the beginning of July regardless of having only a 10 day forecast and lack of long range data. There hasn't been any appreciable rain in the 10 day forecast for 2 months. If the dam managers had been looking at each 10 day period, like I have, they would have seen no rain each time and taken steps to maintain better water levels for this drought period.

We are not on Winni, but on another nearby dam controlled lake. We are not (so far) having any of these issues.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by TomC

Find out why/where that minimum outflow of 250 cfs goes and if it still has relevance. If there is an economic need (I have a possibly faulty memory that its to ensure sufficient power generation to someone) - then whoever has this deeded flow rate could be compensated by the state, or a small shoreline town tax, voluntary contribution, or some other subsidy. Then the dam could be closed and if the 4"/month drop rate at 250 cfs is accurate, the lake would have 6"-8" more water in it with all other things being equal...

Opechee, Winnisquam, Silver Lake, and then to Franklin before merging with the Pemi to become the Merrimack.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

Okay…. I am not happy with the consensus, but I surrender! It’s hard to believe that we need to rely on what seems to be archaic stuff, but hopefully something better will surface in the future. Here’s to higher lake levels! 👏🏼👍

Over the last three decades, I've been following the slow progression of a group of my neighbor's large trees. Every June, pictures are taken.

Five of the seven are still standing, but hanging over the lake. Two maples couldn't support the angle they'd been forced to maintain and snapped off. As collapsed trees deteriorate, all of the chemical compounds in those trees are slowly leaching into the lake. (Enriching algae).

So what is happening?

High lake levels don't stop at the boulders lining the lake. Surface waters reach far under many miles of the lake's waterfront properties. Winter's precipitations move undesirable nutrients closer to the lake. Wakes intensify that movement and flush high-nutrient soil compounds into the lake. (Nitrogen, phosphorus, aluminum).

My acre of lakefront has lost countless trees. Two, with a circumference of twelve feet, have fallen in within the last decade. Two others continue to grow, but are likely to fall the next decade.

Admiring a new gutter installation, I leaned against a large pine. Because it was a windy day, I was surprised at how much it moved. Unseen, its roots were moving as well. While such movement exposes new nutrients for the tree, it also shuffles underground soils. Gravity moves such soils closer to the lake.

In short, hillsides are sliding into the lake. After Ice-Out, oversized boat wakes assure this endless slide.

Higher levels harm the lake.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Reading all these comments and not one of you mentioned climate change as a problem. Excellent thread people keep up the good work


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So why did you feel the need to mention it?

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by Biggd

So why did you feel the need to mention it?

Happiness. The tourists have left and we get to enjoy this beautiful area over the next two months before Mr Winter arrives


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[fatlazyless]

From Lake Champlain, Vermont ..... http://www.wcax.com/2025/09/03/histo...ake-champlain/ ..... low water problems?

From Nova Scotia and New Brunswick ..... http://www.cbc.ca/news/Canada/nova-s...imes-1.7622678 ...... driest summer ever?

From Lake Winnipesaukee, N.H. ...... you know all about its current low level at 502.80'-elevation.

And, on Sept 3 the Conway Daily Sun has a story about six wells in Fryeburg, Maine going dry. Fryeburg is a town with the Saco River and several large ponds so these must be shallow wells, less than 30' deep running dry.

No worries people...... Sept-Oct-Nov will have lots of rain ..... I guarantee it! ..... it will be a totally beautiful nice wet autumn this year! ......

[LIforrelaxin]

Here is the problem, everyone seems to think that Mother Nature can be controlled...... that would be an illusion....

JeffK put together a great post on this subject mater. (Thank-you).....

The Problem here is rooted in History.... Someone once upon a time decided what the operation level of the lake was going to be.... 504.32 High, and 502.32 Low, creating a 2 foot operating band.... Once that was done, it started becoming the ruler used to build structures around the lake...

Once the Lake reaches 504.32, some structures around the lake have no more room to allow the lake to be any higher before they start to have issues and "Flood".....I have watched around the lake in recent years, where low lying docks, boat house etc. are being lifted after repeated issues during high water. Like wise in low water years people start complaining about water depth at their dock. There is a solution to that as well. And it is pretty easy, add another 8 ft. of dock and the ability to lower it during the season....

But oh wait you can't do that because the state regulates maximum dock length... well there is a solution to that as well, regulation can be changed... really at issue here is how they calculate "boat slip Size"at the high water mark you should have a minimum 3' of water at the bow..... and from that point you have 25' that encompasses a slip..... in the averages of cases this equates to roughly a 30' - 40' total dock length from the high water mark. In areas with a steep drop off this is fine, in areas where the isn't a step drop off (my property) this works up to a point.... when the lake is at 502.32' I have always been able to get my boats into my 40' dock, but not with a lot of depth under the boat. Most years I would call it quits after about 502.5'....

Okay where am I going with all this..... There are solutions.... most docks on the lake are fixed pier style... this is great when the water doesn't fluctuate much.... and maybe at some point in the past, the lake didn't.... but now it does....How do you solve this problem.... there are these things called floating docks, they work really well. And best of all can adjust to the water level...... They actually don't need to be as long, because as the lake goes down they can be moved out, with a proper gang way.... down side is they can also be a pain in the ass to get in and out of the water..... its a double edged sword.....

Ok so I am rambling here.... why am I rambling.... while folks there are lots of avenues to be explored.... It likely ins't a on size fits all solution... but there are many solutions to the problems with lake levels, docks and adequate depth.... I have often thought when it is time to replace my dock I would venture towards a floating dock.... for most of the year it would use a fixed gang way.... late in the season I would devise a why to lengthen that gangway to go out a few feet further and creating a secondary anchor point for the dock.... will it work, don't know for sure, but it would be fun to experiment with....

[tis]

We are taking our boats out today and tomorrow.

[jeffk]

Quoting myself, "There are constraints on the management of the lake level that cannot be overcome without absurd levels of effort and expense or damaging results because of the attempt."

Decant, TomC, and LIforrelaxin (sorry if I missed someone) have risen to my challenge to give specific ideas. Some were simple but require foreknowledge of what the weather will be for 2+ months out and would not solve the problem but might mitigate it a bit. Some ideas would require a massive review of water management throughout the water flow related to Winnipesaukee. Any changes to the current setup would have winners and losers, some of those impacts being hard to know, and like the weather, varying from year to year. Plus, as any changes were made, it would likely require numerous $$individual$$ responses to deal with the new setup.

On top of that, the current situation is an outlier. Close to the worst in 40 years. Do we just deal with the unusual conditions once every 40 years or so or put everything into a blender and hope what comes out isn't worse all the rest of the time.

It's a very complex problem and I don't think you can blame DES for mismanagement. I think it is reasonable to request that DES review the situation and consider changes to the management policies that are currently used. Perhaps reset the Full Pool targets a couple inches and retain it longer than mid-June. Yes, it WOULD raise shoreline damage. Higher lake levels in the very active July/August timeframe cause more damage. If higher lake levels could cause increases in Cyanobacteria due to more organic material brought into the lake due to shoreline collapse, do we want to go anywhere near that? All this should be part of the review and might torpedo what I mention and lots of other possibilities.

If nothing else, perhaps DES should be more proactive in anticipating and warning the public about the impact of significantly lower water levels.

[ApS]

Do we really have a problem?

My Florida lake had a sudden development of boat houses with electric hoists. That worked for two decades until we had a drought.



Starting for a couple of years, none could lower their boats--except onto sand!

Even mowing their lawns had them mowing another 100 feet to the end of their docks!

A new spillway, initiated by my unaffected neighbor, has fixed rhat--except now, fertilized lawns are being eroded into a once-pristine lake.



My NH dock, "original" including every board (save one) from 1985, has served me well. But my many decades of "under-sized" boats have limited any unhappy experiences.

My neighbor with a "wake boat", can't get his boat onto his hydraulic lift, so has just moved it to his Jet-Ski mooring.



I'm Southeast and downwind, so is my secure dock of 40 years endangered?

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Happiness. The tourists have left and we get to enjoy this beautiful area over the next two months before Mr Winter arrives

It would seem Summer started yesterday!



My neighbors are sharing a deep well; apparently with no permit problem. (They share a leachfield, too). Maybe those folks with a dry-well problem can ask a neighbor?

[LIforrelaxin]

APS, brings some good points is there really a problem, the answer IMHO is no... its a perception issue, the perception that magically, the Dam operator is going to be able to keep the lake at a comfortable level through any weather circumstance. That is simply not reality.....Overall folks on Winnipesaukee have a desirable situation.

Look at lake level fluctuations down here in Texas where I am now located...(hopefully I will make it to the lake next summer for a few weeks)... Lakes here can very 2' in a mater of months.... I am sure you are all familiar with the tragedy earlier this summer in hill country.... Of particular note was lake Travis.... Now certainly this year was anything but normal.... but before the flood, Lake Traves wasn't down one or two feet, it was down 20+ feet.. As APS pointed out some peoples lake fronts where unusable.... I think those people would love a predictable 2' operating range on a yearly basis.....

If I look back at almost 40 years on the lake.... On one hand I can count the number of years where I felt like I pulled my boat early..... As someone that boats until then end of Oct. when I could, I can tell you the number of people out enjoying the lake in Oct. is very limited, and mostly island residents.... Alot of boats are still in the water of course but they aren't being used....I have always stated boating season in my Mind as Beginning of May to the end of September...... If you miss a month of boating every 5-10 years is that really a big deal?

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by tis

We are taking our boats out today and tomorrow.

Same here


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[Descant]

Mentioned earlier--a simple solution is to push back the full pool date to mid or late July instead of early June. Looking at the mean from 40+50 years ago does not consider many current situations, esp. bigger, deeper draft boats. And, in contrast, people used to build right up to the waters edge and now are set back at least 50 feet. In the mean time, frontage with shallow or gradual sloping bottom was not developed. Same with super sharp drop off like the east side of Rattlesnake Island. So, newcomers (less than say 25 years), are encountering problems that did not exist 40 years ago.

A couple of thoughts on chamging regulations: DES can already adjust the date/goals for full pond. No regulation chamnge needed. Other regulation through the legislature gets very complicated as it usually affects all lakes, not just Winnipesaukee. Around 2017-2018 there was legislation proposed to allow docks to be 40 ft instead of 30'. Ok for the particular location that Senator had in mind, but very problematic for the other 959 lakes. Similarly, therfe was a push (withdrawn) to define a boat slip as 4' deep instead of 3' deep. Boaters testified that when you have a 3' start slip depth, everfything being measurted from 504.32, later in the summer you really only had a 1' deep slip. But then, move to smaller coves and smaller lakes and start extending docks on all sides. Won't work. I have friends in a cove on another lake who really can't build their own dock because of pre-existing docks.

I don't see a big future for floating docks as they can't support boats when there are high winds and wave action, whether from wind or wake boats.

The marketplace will resolve some of these issues with bigger boiats getting huge tilt up out boards, and shallow draft pontoons taking a bigger share of the market.

[tis]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Same here


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Two are out, one to go!

[rsmlp]

I mentioned near the start of this thread that due to the lack of water at the end of our dock I am considering a pontoon. Test drove a Harris 230 solstice and I'm considering a Harris 250 grand mariner with a 400 merc. (someone mentioned get the biggest engine possible and I agree!). Looks promising but the devil is in the details.

On a slightly separate front, it seems to me the lake is getting lower more consistently and therefore dam management needs to change and NOT assume that we'll get X amount of rain after 6/1. Rarely does the lake level in late spring
deviate much from the norm.

[WinnisquamZ]

Verify the draft number for what you purchase. Also, keep in mind service. Who and where to store it is a big concern of many these past few years


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[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by rsmlp

I mentioned near the start of this thread that due to the lack of water at the end of our dock I am considering a pontoon. Test drove a Harris 230 solstice and I'm considering a Harris 250 grand mariner with a 400 merc. (someone mentioned get the biggest engine possible and I agree!). Looks promising but the devil is in the details.



On a slightly separate front, it seems to me the lake is getting lower more consistently and therefore dam management needs to change and NOT assume that we'll get X amount of rain after 6/1. Rarely does the lake level in late spring

deviate much from the norm.

That Grand Mariner looks sweet!

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[BillTex]

Originally Posted by Descant

I don't see a big future for floating docks as they can't support boats when there are high winds and wave action, whether from wind or wake boats.

This is the 190’ MV Dancing Hare docked last week at the municipal marina I volunteer at back in RI.
Notice there are no pilings. This is a completely floating dock.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by Descant

Mentioned earlier--a simple solution is to push back the full pool date to mid or late July instead of early June. Looking at the mean from 40+50 years ago does not consider many current situations, esp. bigger, deeper draft boats. And, in contrast, people used to build right up to the waters edge and now are set back at least 50 feet. In the mean time, frontage with shallow or gradual sloping bottom was not developed. Same with super sharp drop off like the east side of Rattlesnake Island. So, newcomers (less than say 25 years), are encountering problems that did not exist 40 years ago.

A couple of thoughts on chamging regulations: DES can already adjust the date/goals for full pond. No regulation chamnge needed. Other regulation through the legislature gets very complicated as it usually affects all lakes, not just Winnipesaukee. Around 2017-2018 there was legislation proposed to allow docks to be 40 ft instead of 30'. Ok for the particular location that Senator had in mind, but very problematic for the other 959 lakes. Similarly, therfe was a push (withdrawn) to define a boat slip as 4' deep instead of 3' deep. Boaters testified that when you have a 3' start slip depth, everfything being measurted from 504.32, later in the summer you really only had a 1' deep slip. But then, move to smaller coves and smaller lakes and start extending docks on all sides. Won't work. I have friends in a cove on another lake who really can't build their own dock because of pre-existing docks.

I don't see a big future for floating docks as they can't support boats when there are high winds and wave action, whether from wind or wake boats.

The marketplace will resolve some of these issues with bigger boiats getting huge tilt up out boards, and shallow draft pontoons taking a bigger share of the market.

The suggestion to change the full pool date from early June to mid July or later could be a very useful tool in managing lake levels for the summer season. Sounds simple and reasonable to me.

[pjard]

Originally Posted by Descant

Mentioned earlier--a simple solution is to push back the full pool date to mid or late July instead of early June. Looking at the mean from 40+50 years ago does not consider many current situations, esp. bigger, deeper draft boats. And, in contrast, people used to build right up to the waters edge and now are set back at least 50 feet. In the mean time, frontage with shallow or gradual sloping bottom was not developed. Same with super sharp drop off like the east side of Rattlesnake Island. So, newcomers (less than say 25 years), are encountering problems that did not exist 40 years ago.

A couple of thoughts on chamging regulations: DES can already adjust the date/goals for full pond. No regulation chamnge needed. Other regulation through the legislature gets very complicated as it usually affects all lakes, not just Winnipesaukee. Around 2017-2018 there was legislation proposed to allow docks to be 40 ft instead of 30'. Ok for the particular location that Senator had in mind, but very problematic for the other 959 lakes. Similarly, therfe was a push (withdrawn) to define a boat slip as 4' deep instead of 3' deep. Boaters testified that when you have a 3' start slip depth, everfything being measurted from 504.32, later in the summer you really only had a 1' deep slip. But then, move to smaller coves and smaller lakes and start extending docks on all sides. Won't work. I have friends in a cove on another lake who really can't build their own dock because of pre-existing docks.

I don't see a big future for floating docks as they can't support boats when there are high winds and wave action, whether from wind or wake boats.

The marketplace will resolve some of these issues with bigger boiats getting huge tilt up out boards, and shallow draft pontoons taking a bigger share of the market.

This is very thought provoking. Doesn't it make more sense if we were concerned about lake levels in late October? I'm not criticizing anyone or any policy, honestly why not. I'm guessing someone smarter than me on this topic could explain why not.

[John Mercier]

I think that generally the concern amounts to too much water, which the DES can control to a degree by opening the dam beyond the minimum flow.

Refilling the lake is more a function of nature, which is something DES cannot control.

So in October, if the lake were too full, they could open the dam outflow.

[rsmlp]

Getting back to a tritoon. We live on Windy Point Rd and it's aptly named! I'm concerned that even with my breakwater the toon will be susceptible to damage using my whips to keep boat off the dock. Input from experienced owners please?

thinking of something like this for the posts.

https://www.amazon.com/Dock-Bumper-H...1zcF9hdGY&th=1

[WinnisquamZ]

Also on a windy part of the lake. Whips don’t cut it. You need a boat lift. Yes, they’re expensive and require removal and install. But, just the piece of mind pays for itself


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[Garcia]

Originally Posted by rsmlp

I mentioned near the start of this thread that due to the lack of water at the end of our dock I am considering a pontoon. Test drove a Harris 230 solstice and I'm considering a Harris 250 grand mariner with a 400 merc. (someone mentioned get the biggest engine possible and I agree!). Looks promising but the devil is in the details.

On a slightly separate front, it seems to me the lake is getting lower more consistently and therefore dam management needs to change and NOT assume that we'll get X amount of rain after 6/1. Rarely does the lake level in late spring
deviate much from the norm.

I am amazed at how far pontoons have come over the years - and their cost

[Descant]

3.5" diameter seems small if you have posts on the dock that are commonly 4"x 6". My dock posts are all 4 x 6 and I have rubber vertical bump strips nailed to the posts for a 4 ft vertical to cover different boats and water levels. Our docks face the broads on the south sidse of Welch Island, so we get some pretty big wave action. Behind my breakwater there is little warer movement but the boat superstructure (cagin cruiser) catches the wind and the boat moves around some. We use ~10" x 40"(?) fenders that hang from the boat rails and/or cleats. We take them with us and have them available whereever we dock regardless of whatever posts may be available. Ours are navy blue/black. Anything white gets to looking pretty shabby aftera season's use and if it is attached to the dock, hard tro clean without nasty chemicals. We have stretch cloth covers that can be removed and washed, and pre-spliced 6' fender lines, all availble from Parafunalia in Gilford and many marfinas that cater ro larger boats. You only needc a couple instead of lining the entire dock as shown in the picture in the above post.

[LIforrelaxin]

I keep seeing the idea of shifting the full pool date.... this is not viable in my opinion.... getting to full pool is by in large based on the spring melt off coming out of the Mountains..... By Late June / July that source of incoming water is non existent.... so how can they maintain a latter date......

as JeffK has pointed out, the operation of the Dam is dictated by needs down stream.... to move the date, for full lake they have to be able to store water somewhere to keep Winnipesaukee full... yes there are places thy could do it, but then we risk flooding issues.... The balancing act is delicate.....

Its been a rough year with little rain through July and August..... it is what it is for the lake level... just like when there is a good snow pack, and to Much Rain in June, there is a high water issue... it is what it is folks.... If you can't follow Mother Natures lead in this dance, you are going to be unhappy no mater what.....

The Dam operators have a difficult job..... don't second guess them.....

[rsmlp]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Also on a windy part of the lake. Whips don’t cut it. You need a boat lift. Yes, they’re expensive and require removal and install. But, just the piece of mind pays for itself


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Looked into a lift with my 26' bowrider. No joy. There's not enough water at the end of the dock to get the boat off the lift once lake level hits 503.

Seems to me if I crank down on the whips and keep it 3' off the dock that should do it-especially with good post fenders.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by rsmlp

Getting back to a tritoon. We live on Windy Point Rd and it's aptly named! I'm concerned that even with my breakwater the toon will be susceptible to damage using my whips to keep boat off the dock. Input from experienced owners please?

thinking of something like this for the posts.

https://www.amazon.com/Dock-Bumper-H...1zcF9hdGY&th=1

I live on the West side of Welch Island and have a 28’ Bennington docked at my breakwater dock all season… No lift. It doesn’t get much windier anywhere else on the lake when the predominant NW wind is blowing!

I two way tie off one front pontoon in opposing directions using 1/2” line wrapped around shock absorbing dog bones. The rear is tied on one side only using one dog bone line and one safety line. I also utilize one fender at the stern between dock and boat. My pontoon never touches the dock in the bow whatsoever no matter how rough it gets. The stern sits pretty stable and occasionally will bump the protective fender. I have the fender placed where it will not rub or mar any surface even with repeated fender impacts.

I have had pontoon boats for the past 18 years and have tied everyone the same way without damage.

While utilizing a lift would be nice, it would certainly take away any advantage of the shallow water docking a pontoon offers….Lifts require a lot of extra water depth.

Dan

[rsmlp]

Good stuff "Shoot". I PM'd you looking for a little more info if possible. thank you!

[rsmlp]

What do you folks think about a LACK of a windshield. Now remember, this comes from 40 yrs in a bowrider! The test ride was "uncomfortable" over 25 mph?

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by rsmlp

What do you folks think about a LACK of a windshield. Now remember, this comes from 40 yrs in a bowrider! The test ride was "uncomfortable" over 25 mph?

I mean, if the test ride was uncomfortable (why quotes?), I think you've got your answer?

My Harris has a fairly small windscreen for the captain, but I can totally tell a different even I'm out from behind it as a passenger.

That being said, nobody but the captain gets the benefit of it!

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[tis]

Originally Posted by rsmlp

What do you folks think about a LACK of a windshield. Now remember, this comes from 40 yrs in a bowrider! The test ride was "uncomfortable" over 25 mph?

I would never have a boat without a windshield. But then I am always cold. They also protect you from anything even bugs hitting you when you are going fast.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Reading all these comments and not one of you mentioned climate change as a problem. Excellent thread people keep up the good work

"Climate Change", although always present, took a major hit in the NY Post today.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by rsmlp

What do you folks think about a LACK of a windshield. Now remember, this comes from 40 yrs in a bowrider! The test ride was "uncomfortable" over 25 mph?

Many pontoons have full windshields. Mine does but honestly I’m not sure how much it helps….

Dan

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by rsmlp

Getting back to a tritoon. We live on Windy Point Rd and it's aptly named! I'm concerned that even with my breakwater the toon will be susceptible to damage using my whips to keep boat off the dock. Input from experienced owners please?

thinking of something like this for the posts.[/url]

Make sure they are relatively soft, especially if your boat will be bouncing off of them a lot. I visited a friend who lives in an area with a lot of waves and boat wakes. He had dock bumpers that looked like that. When I left, I noticed dents in the pontoons from hitting the bumpers on the posts.

It is rough at my house and I have used both whips and 4 foot stretching dock lines for the pontoon boat for years. They seem to hold the boat about a foot off of the dock.

Originally Posted by rsmlp

What do you folks think about a LACK of a windshield. Now remember, this comes from 40 yrs in a bowrider! The test ride was "uncomfortable" over 25 mph?

Some manufacturers make pontoon boats with windshields.

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Also on a windy part of the lake. Whips don’t cut it. You need a boat lift. Yes, they’re expensive and require removal and install. But, just the piece of mind pays for itself
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I think the original post was about getting a pontoon boat because of a lack of deep water at the dock. Lifts require additional depth.

My boat is on a lift in the boathouse but I do not have a lot of depth. It is all ledge underneath so I can't go any lower. Now, with the lift lowered until it is sitting on the bottom, there is not enough water to float the boat. Season over, the boat is there until spring.

[LIforrelaxin]

Ok so as a user of whips, I am always fascinated by the posts.... Why are people using whips and pushing boats, 3 and 4 feet away from the dock?

At most I allow the ships to push the boat 18"-24" away from the dock.... with proper tension, and tying I have never had with my pontoon, or my speedboat hit the dock.....I used whips with a jet, ski and well that was a different story although it rarely hit the dock as well....

As for where I am on the lake, right by the six pack, so it is pretty dang busy....

The biggest mistake I see people make with whips, is not tying the boat off well.....and keep good tension on the whips themselves when at rest.....

[Biggd]

So, has this weekend's rain made any difference in the lake level?
I'm taking my boat out anyway on Thursday.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Biggd

So, has this weekend's rain made any difference in the lake level?
I'm taking my boat out anyway on Thursday.

Not a bit! It would have to rain like that for two weeks straight to make difference!

Dan

[upthesaukee]

I have a stream that runs behind my house in Alton Bay, which feeds directly to the lake. It is all downhill to the lake. My property is about 200 ft above the lake.

No change to the brook after the rain yesterday into today.

Dave