Sandy Point Updates

[TiltonBB]

A positive story in the Laconia Sun about Sandy Point and the new owners. They hope to open the restaurant in 2027. Bring back the baked stuffed lobster!

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...062a625b7.html

[codeman671]

I have heard a bit of a different take on this group from others in Alton. The word out there is that they are quite arrogantly calling Alton "their town now" and they plan on owning it all. Properties are owned by multiple shell companies, they will move money, bankrupt it, and start another to play the tax game.

I don't know them personally, but what's being spread isn't all sunshine and butterflies.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by codeman671

I have heard a bit of a different take on this group from others in Alton. The word out there is that they are quite arrogantly calling Alton "their town now" and they plan on owning it all. Properties are owned by multiple shell companies, they will move money, bankrupt it, and start another to play the tax game.

I don't know them personally, but what's being spread isn't all sunshine and butterflies.

Not to mention the exponential increase in prices.

I don't know enough about the improvements vs. increases to comment other than to recognize that there are a lot of disappointed long-term renters who have been vocal about being priced-out.

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[8gv]

One would expect a business owner to want to maximize their return on investment.

The inventory of this type of rental in the lakes region has diminished over the last decade or so.

With an ever shrinking competitive set the rates will rise.

If a multi year renter is priced out their options may include staying at a lesser property, changing to a less expensive time period or having a shorter stay.

Sometimes change sucks.

[Lil' Barndoor Guy]

Does anybody know if a new septic system is to be installed?
I heard this was a major factor as to why it wasn't selling

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by 8gv

One would expect a business owner to want to maximize their return on investment.

The inventory of this type of rental in the lakes region has diminished over the last decade or so.

With an ever shrinking competitive set the rates will rise.

If a multi year renter is priced out their options may include staying at a lesser property, changing to a less expensive time period or having a shorter stay.

Sometimes change sucks.

I think the key word here is "maximize." I've seen so many businesses—and, as a result, their employees and customers—destroyed by private equity in search of "maximum profit" rather than being satisfied with a more reasonable balance of profit, employee support, and customer satisfaction.

I know, I know—I'm probably not a realist—but I remember the days of shareholder capitalism when everyone could win.

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[John Mercier]

I think to maximize profit, those other things have to be strong.

[ghfromaltonbay]

Originally Posted by Lil' Barndoor Guy

Does anybody know if a new septic system is to be installed?
I heard this was a major factor as to why it wasn't selling

The new septic system is supposed to be done this fall once they close for the season at an estimated $1.5M. The restaurant's septic is totally shot. For the last few years the restaurant was open, the "stuff" from the restaurant was oozing through the stone wall behind the place. You can still see the stains on the stones. Used to be an attraction for flies. My parents leased a cottage in that section and were always concerned that the wall would let go. The septic for the entire Point gets pumped uphill and across Mt Major Highway to the leach field . There is no way the restaurant can reopen until this is rectified.

[ghfromaltonbay]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

A positive story in the Laconia Sun about Sandy Point and the new owners. They hope to open the restaurant in 2027. Bring back the baked stuffed lobster!

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...062a625b7.html

Don't believe everything you read. Some of the returning leasees are not so thrilled. The prices more than doubled and the place looks like a ghost town. Most units and docks sit empty.

[sunfishman]

Assuming the town of Alton was notified, why were they allowed to operate the resort with 'stuff oozing out of the walls' and eventually making its way to the lake?

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by ghfromaltonbay

The new septic system is supposed to be done this fall once they close for the season at an estimated $1.5M. ...

That 1.5 million (plus all the other fixes and improvement costs) has to be recouped and the only way to do that is to increase prices. It's a business, not a charity. Whether the rental and restaurant prices reflect a fair return on investment is TBD and subject to broad interpretation but they are certainly going to go up. Will they go up beyond what is now "typical" around the lake? Probably not because it's a competitive market but it's not going to be like the old Sandy Point.

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by sunfishman

Assuming the town of Alton was notified, why were they allowed to operate the resort with 'stuff oozing out of the walls' and eventually making its way to the lake?

The answer is stated within your question. The key words are “Town of Alton”.

[camp guy]

The question of septic has come up before, more than once. The housing at Sandy Point is well-below the road level, and the restaurant, at best, is road level. To have a leach field across the highway is an insane proposal, one which should be dismissed instantly by the appropriate Board in Alton.
My take is that this will sooner than later end up as a battle between the developers and the regulatory agency dealing with septic systems and leach fields. The lawyers for Sandy Point probably have deep pockets, and they can string out the proceedings to the point that the Town of Alton may eventually crumble for lack of cash and will strike a deal with the developers. Having the leach field across the highway ought to raise a red flag to the State. The whole system will be dependent upon massive pumps able to keep up with the input, and, I would guess (hope) a large enough tank to take care of a problem if the pump(s) failed. To the untrained eye, this looks like a very complicated situation.
For the sake of the Lake, I hope the engineers are very careful in what they eventually allow.

[ghfromaltonbay]

Originally Posted by camp guy

The question of septic has come up before, more than once. The housing at Sandy Point is well-below the road level, and the restaurant, at best, is road level. To have a leach field across the highway is an insane proposal, one which should be dismissed instantly by the appropriate Board in Alton.

A misunderstanding of my previous post. The existing original leach field is located across Mt Major Highway and the pumping system was the brainchild of the late Al Ouellette who founded Sandy Point. I do not know where the leach field will be located for the "new and improved" septic. Hopefully not across the highway.

[TheTimeTraveler]

Originally Posted by ghfromaltonbay

A misunderstanding of my previous post. The existing original leach field is located across Mt Major Highway and the pumping system was the brainchild of the late Al Ouellette who founded Sandy Point. I do not know where the leach field will be located for the "new and improved" septic. Hopefully not across the highway.

I doubt that Sandy Point would want to give up that very rare State of NH easement that legally allows the septic system to cross to the other side of Route 11. Plus I am not sure there is a physical availability of land on which to place a yet to be built new system on the eastern (lake) side of the highway.

[jeffk]

I would guess that a legal argument could be made that if it would be impossible or ridiculously expensive to place a septic system on the building property and that an easement already exists to go across the road, the state and town would have trouble trying to block it.

Once things go into the courts, who knows how it will end up. I'm sure the new owners have already looked at this and have reasonable confidence they can build a working system and get the approvals for it.

[Biggd]

A pump-up system is not that unusual, many establishments have them. I think a place like that would require a fail-safe of multiple tanks and pumps plus a large generator to run everything. And I would think that a large leach field would be better for the lake as far away as possible, JMHO.

[Slickcraft]

The NH Dept of Environmental Services (DES) sets standards for septic design. A qualified designer must submit a plan for approval. Once approved, a qualified installer must do the install. Final approval for operation requires on site inspection of the as built by a DES inspector.

I went through the process on Welch where we have a pump up leach field as many islanders do.

Alan

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I think the key word here is "maximize." I've seen so many businesses—and, as a result, their employees and customers—destroyed by private equity in search of "maximum profit" rather than being satisfied with a more reasonable balance of profit, employee support, and customer satisfaction.

I know, I know—I'm probably not a realist—but I remember the days of shareholder capitalism when everyone could win.

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The Bocellis do not speak like the type of "extractive" private equity investors focused on maximizing short term financial gain. I'm optimistic that many will be happy

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

The Bocellis do not speak like the type of "extractive" private equity investors focused on maximizing short term financial gain. I'm optimistic that many will be happy

I dunno—much of what I've read about what they're taking over, how they speak about it, and the overall price increases seem pretty aggressive.

Added to that is what seems like an intentional disconnect between the people and the company/companies they own. It's often, as you mention, "the Bocellis" rather than Vacanza, etc.

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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I dunno—much of what I've read about what they're taking over, how they speak about it, and the overall price increases seem pretty aggressive.

Added to that is what seems like an intentional disconnect between the people and the company/companies they own. It's often, as you mention, "the Bocellis" rather than Vacanza, etc.

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Yeah, I don't know either. The things that have me encouraged is that they appear to be a family business and state they hope to pass it to future generations. Also, just based on what I've read here, I would not be at all surprised if there was a ton on deferred maintenance on these places. That, plus the market price I assume they've paid, means prices are going to have to go up. But that's not greed, that's just our economic current reality--even nice guys would have to increase price here.

[Mr. V]

I suspect it will be tough for the new owners to thrive there without a restaurant, given the $10.5M cost of acquisition.

[ghfromaltonbay]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Yeah, I don't know either. The things that have me encouraged is that they appear to be a family business and state they hope to pass it to future generations. Also, just based on what I've read here, I would not be at all surprised if there was a ton on deferred maintenance on these places. That, plus the market price I assume they've paid, means prices are going to have to go up. But that's not greed, that's just our economic current reality--even nice guys would have to increase price here.

The prices for units more than doubled and quadrupled for docks and leasees now have to pay for their electric and propane. Fewer than a third of the leasees returned and only 5 boats returned. The article states that the Ouellettes leased 2 units, but they dock their boats elsewhere. Friends who did return said it's a virtual ghost town. Who would pay over $2000/week for a 1 room cottage with a partial kitchen, no stove (Unit #47)? Here is the website, you can check the prices and see pics of the units available: thesandypoint.com

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by ghfromaltonbay

The prices for units more than doubled and quadrupled for docks and leasees now have to pay for their electric and propane. Fewer than a third of the leasees returned and only 5 boats returned. The article states that the Ouellettes leased 2 units, but they dock their boats elsewhere. Friends who did return said it's a virtual ghost town. Who would pay over $2000/week for a 1 room cottage with a partial kitchen, no stove (Unit #47)? Here is the website, you can check the prices and see pics of the units available: thesandypoint.com

Thanks for the intel. Forget what I wrote before--looking at the pictures and your post now, I agree--that's not right

[BillTex]

The Sandy Point website says there is a brewpub at Castle in the clouds. I dont believe that is true?

[Rinkerguy]

Do the math, purchase price $10.5 million, septic system $1.5-$2 million, renovations to units est. $20,000 x 30 units conservative, renovations to main house and expansion on a few cabins for family members $250,000. Let’s call it $14 million. What business plan can you put together that makes this profitable? Tax write off or bankruptcy filing or sell as condos.

Time will tell, considering the off holiday rentals were minimal and how many seasonals will return in 2027.

[ghfromaltonbay]

Originally Posted by Rinkerguy

Time will tell, considering the off holiday rentals were minimal and how many seasonals will return in 2027.

Heard someone there is calling former seasonal residents asking them to reconsider and come back. Weekly rentals were scarce this summer so I guess they are eager for people to come back and rent for the full 6 months.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Rinkerguy

Do the math, purchase price $10.5 million, septic system $1.5-$2 million, renovations to units est. $20,000 x 30 units conservative, renovations to main house and expansion on a few cabins for family members $250,000. Let’s call it $14 million. What business plan can you put together that makes this profitable? Tax write off or bankruptcy filing or sell as condos.

Time will tell, considering the off holiday rentals were minimal and how many seasonals will return in 2027.

I agree on the math, but that does not change the basic reality--they are selling working class accommodations at upper class prices. So many of their regulars will not be able to step up. The business question is whether they can attract new, wealthier people. Financially, I think they over paid. Personally, I'm sad for the folks who are now priced out.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I agree on the math, but that does not change the basic reality--they are selling working class accommodations at upper class prices. So many of their regulars will not be able to step up. The business question is whether they can attract new, wealthier people. Financially, I think they over paid. Personally, I'm sad for the folks who are now priced out.

There are currently 39 properties available to rent next weekend, the long Columbus Day weekend, ranging from $650-$2300.

It's a little unclear how many total units are involved here, but a quick search looks like between 55-60, which means something like 67% are unrented.

I'm guessing those types of property, which are lake access and/or come with slips, are mostly desirable in warm weather, which makes the pricing/equation that much more delicate.



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[Winilyme]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Personally, I'm sad for the folks who are now priced out.

But this is the story of the lake, is it not? And many of us are complicit, is that not so?

[ghfromaltonbay]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I agree on the math, but that does not change the basic reality--they are selling working class accommodations at upper class prices. So many of their regulars will not be able to step up. The business question is whether they can attract new, wealthier people. Financially, I think they over paid. Personally, I'm sad for the folks who are now priced out.

Folks who complained about the steep price increases were informed this is now a FIVE STAR Resort. Oh really? It's not exactly The Estate on Winnisquam even if the prices are similar.

[8gv]

So...

Is it fair to say that the previous renters have reacted to the higher rental rates by giving the place a good Leifing alone?

[Rinkerguy]

The seasonal “guests” diminished significantly from 2025. Now with a firm understanding of the new rules and restriction from the new owners those who return for 2027 are foolish, or enjoy the overpriced peace and quiet. Hopefully bu now they can drink the water and have no concerns about their cabin falling into the lake.