...eeek.....it's back.....eek....oh-no!

[lifeonthefarm]

"loud pipes" don't save lives on the lake. They are illegal because you wouldn't be able to hear a Sound Producing Device if one was being blown to get your attention...

[WeirsBeachBoater]

Maybe kayaks don't belong in the broads. Same reasoning. Even if there were hypothetically a 45mph limit, Kayaks can not keep up with traffic. They certainly create a hazard to themselves and other boaters. Same reason mopeds aren't allowed on interstates, can not stay with the flow of traffic, and are putting themselves in harms way and hindering all others.

[Island Life]

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

Maybe kayaks don't belong in the broads. Same reasoning. Even if there were hypothetically a 45mph limit, Kayaks can not keep up with traffic. They certainly create a hazard to themselves and other boaters.

Very revealing comment. My boat probably can't keep up with yours. Am I a hazard, too?

Actually, people who kayak as a sport can use the same argument that people with oversized boats use. They need wide-open stretches of water so they can paddle at high speed (yes, it is fast - but not your kind of fast).

Most people don't paddle in the broads, but rather cross from island to island, which requires paddling across fairly large, open areas of water. It's unavoidable. And it's very frightening to see large boats moving toward you at very high speed - and coming from multiple directions. You have no idea whether they can see you or whether they are focusing instead on the more obvious (motor) boats they notice. When you are sitting a few inches deep into the water, with nothing but a small shell around you and a paddle to wave, there is nothing irrational about that, Dave R.

And I was not at the lake for 25 days - I was there for the whole summer. Sure, there were fewer boats this summer, I agree. The number of paddlers is down significantly from what it was many years ago. And that is not because there are fewer paddlers out there - instead the sport is growing fast. The few I saw came by mostly in the early morning or mid-week when the boat traffic was low.

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

Same reason mopeds aren't allowed on interstates, can not stay with the flow of traffic, and are putting themselves in harms way and hindering all others.

WBB, there is no "flow of traffic" on a lake. Boats go in any direction they wish.

No, I'm not a crazed kayaker. I kayak around the island, that's all, maybe now and then to an adjacent island. I used to kayak a lot, but now I'm too afraid to go much farther than that. And yes, I do like to go "fast" in my boat (it's top speed is probably 45 or 50).

[Lakewinniboater]

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

Maybe kayaks don't belong in the broads. Same reasoning. Even if there were hypothetically a 45mph limit, Kayaks can not keep up with traffic. They certainly create a hazard to themselves and other boaters. Same reason mopeds aren't allowed on interstates, can not stay with the flow of traffic, and are putting themselves in harms way and hindering all others.

Not much to say except.... GOOD POINT!!!!! I can't tell you how many times I have seen Canoer's and Kayaker's in places that simply were not common sense and were visibly IRRITATED (not afraid or fearful) of the other boater's that WERE obeying the rules and laws!

[secondcurve]

I'd vote for the speed limit if I thought it would make a difference. Unfortunately, it won't. So why bother? The lake doesn't work for many small kayaks and canoes these days due to heavy traffic. I have a 23 foot deep V boat (max speed 38 mph in perfect conditions) and I wouldn't think of boating in anything smaller on Winnipesaukee. I have been boating for 2-seasons on the lake, for a total of about 110 hours, and I can't recall an incident where speed was an issue. Perhaps it is because I have operated in a watercraft that is appropriate for the conditions?

The simple fact of the matter is that most parts of Winnipesaukee are unfit for small watercraft and this isn't going to change. Certainly, anyone who ventures into the broads on a small watercraft is taking a fair amount of personal risk. The good news is that there are many smaller lakes and ponds in the area that are perfect for small watercraft.

Finally, the only way I see to make the lake safer is to crack down on existing illegal activity and to get the booze out. How about a law that makes open containers illegal? Im not saying I'd be for it, but it would make a hell of a lot more difference than a speed limit.

[Cal]

The smaller the vessel , the more danger is involved , regardless of speed.
I personally wouldn't kayak across the broads because it's a kayak , not because of speed. I would be more concerned with lake and/or weather conditions. A fast moving thunderstorm is a lot faster than any kayak. It doesn't matter how strong a swimmer you are or what type of flotation devices you have , battling 30 or 40 mph winds and 4 or 5 foot waves for a half hour could be just as fatal as a 40' boat doing 80 mph.
Maybe we could ban thunderstorms or limit wind speed and wave height too
I'd like to say "If you can't keep up with the big dogs , get out of the game" , but I won't because you certainly have a right to be out there too. Just like you see people doing STUPID things on the highway(and they have speed limits) , you'll also see it on the water.
So get over it and get out there and enjoy it anyway

[Silver Duck]

I think that Evenstar hit the nail on the head in her second post when she said "and the fact that the operators of those boats may not see us".

But, IMHO, the danger is caused more by Captain Bonehead not paying rnough attention to what's around him, or having had one too many "brewskis", or just plain running too fast for the visibility than by running above 45 mph. Sadly, I've seen Captain B at the helm of everything from PWCs to bowriders to cruisers.

There is nothing magical about 45 mph that makes it an intrinsically safe speed; many times and places it's much too fast for the visibility or the crowded conditions, while other times and places it's quite possible to go faster in perfect safety (so long as the operator is keeping a sharp watch).

Certainly 45 mph is not slow enough to make a collision safe. God forbid that it should ever happen, but if a canoe or a kayak gets run over because Captain Bonehead isn't watching where he's going, the results aren't going to be much different whether it happens at 25 mph, 45 mph, or 75 mph.

I'm not without sympathy for the folks that are intimidated by having a boat bearing down on them at high speed. Been there, done that in my younger days racing small sailboats, and I "gay-ron-tee" that having a boat bearing down on you at 45 is still going to produce a very high "pucker factor".

Heck, even in my 29 ft. cruiser I've had the "pucker factor" kick in wondering "does that idiot see me", especially at night. But, short of making the entire lake headway speed at all times, I don't think that we can make it completely safe to share the lake with Captain B when he's not paying attention. Certainly, a 45 mph speed limit will not do the trick, and 25 mph is way, way too fast on a dark, cloudy night.

Besides, as became apparent during the last go around, the root of this whole speed limit effort is really about driving performance boats off the lake!

Silver Duck

[Evenstar]

Just because a vessel is smaller does not make it more dangerous. There’s a whole bunch more than size to consider - such as the ability and knowledge of the operator, as well as the design of the vessel.

Ok, I explained all this last year in great detail (to the same people posting here now), but apparently you still don’t understand. A sea kayak is not the same type of boat as a recreational kayak. My kayak is made for large bodies of water, not small lakes and ponds. I cover 20 miles of lake in an afternoon and 4-foot waves and wind conditions aren’t usually that much of a problem – and I’ve never been out in what I would call dangerous weather conditions (I do check the weather reports – and I do keep a watch on the sky). On winni there are only a few spots where you can be more than a mile for some shoreline – which means that I can almost always reach a shore within 15 minutes. I’m also an experienced kayaker – not some beginner and I never go out without safety equipment - plus I’m in great shape – and I don’t paddle alone on the larger lakes.

A 45 mph speed is not a magical number, but it is (in my opinion) a reasonable speed (just like 65 is a reasonable speed for most sections of the Interstate). What a speed limit does do is that it gives something concrete for people to follow (and for officers to use). And if you don’t believe that a speed limit makes a difference, go visit Squam – and look at the number of kayaks and canoes out on that lake.

[Cal]

Just because a vessel is smaller does not make it more dangerous.

OK , I guess that just about sez it all

It sounds like "Golden Pond" is a real nice place to kayak

[JDeere]

Hmmmmmm I wonder why real-estate on Squam is valued almost 2x what Winni is. Could it be that peace and safety have a value added component to it?

The argument against the speed limit is based on ignorance of boating in other parts of the country. Any one boated in the ICW and dealt with speed limits, and long, long, long no wakes to protect the manatees?

[SteveA]

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

But, IMHO, the danger is caused more by Captain Bonehead not paying rnough attention to what's around him, or having had one too many "brewskis", or just plain running too fast for the visibility than by running above 45 mph. Sadly, I've seen Captain B at the helm of everything from PWCs to bowriders to cruisers.

Silver Duck

Island Life has it almost right.... but the real winner IMHO is Silver Duck. The problem is not with "fast boats" or "slow boats". It's with the people that own and drive either. The real problem is Captain Bonehead.

How many times have we all looked at posts here that showed some drunk landing his boat on an island?

How many times have we all seen a boat load of people more intent on having a floating "party" rather than having any concern for the other boaters on the lake?

How many times have we all seen someone towing a tube or skier that is not looking forward.. but instead watching at the "towie'?

I'm not for the speed limit...I've seen many a "Fast Boat" acting perfectly respectful of other boats. Admit it.. we all have. I am very much in favor of VERY STRICT enforcement for the rules that exist. I would also like to see a massive increase in the fines.. including revocations for violaters.

The lake is a wonderful awe inspiring place. We are all very blessed to have a chance to use it. Those who make the choice to abuse the rules that are in place to protect fellow users, and protect the lake need to be thrown off the lake.

Evenstar has as much right to be on the lake as the anyone else.. as long as she follows the rules. Fast Boats have as much right to be on the lake.. as long as they follow the rules.

We don't need to get rid of either slow boats or fast boats... we need to rid the lake of Captain Bonehead!

[Woodsy]

The lake is for EVERYBODY.... But like any resource there are certain times its easier for some to enjoy than others.

I can understand Evenstar's position, when your the small guy, you gotta wonder if the big guys see you bobbing in the water. The reality is, although you have the right to be on the lake whenever and wherever you want, safety and prudence should dictate when/where you go. I have the RIGHT to ride a bike in downtown Boston during rush hour, but it probably isn't the smartest thing to do. Paddling around Govenors Is. mid-week isn't all that bad, although certainly there is more boat traffic mid-week near Govenor's Is. due to the proximity to the Weirs. Go up to Winter Harbor or Moultonborough Bay and there is very little boat traffic! Paddling around Govenor's Is. on a busy summer saturday is absolutely NUTS! Its not because the boats are going too fast... thats pretty much not possible because there are just too many boats.

Even though the 12-16 weekends a year are very busy, statistically speaking the lake is VERY SAFE for ALL! There have been ZIP/ZERO/NADA accidents involving a collision between two watercraft since August 2002 (We all know that accident). There have been ZIP/ZERO/NADA accidents since 2002 that have occured at a speed GREATER THAN 45MPH! In fact most personal injury accidents were the result of falling within the boat. A stronger argument could be made for banning waterskiing and wakeboarding... (there was a wakeboarding fatality) and canoes and kayaks (numerous drownings).

Woodsy

[Lakewinniboater]

Originally Posted by SteveA

but the real winner IMHO is Silver Duck. The problem is not with "fast boats" or "slow boats". It's with the people that own and drive either. The real problem is Captain Bonehead................

We don't need to get rid of either slow boats or fast boats... we need to rid the lake of Captain Bonehead!

ABSOLUTELY!!!! I would be all for more DUI boating laws.... open container while underway and such!

Keep any and all types of people, boats and personal freedoms. Crack down on Education and Alcohol consumption while driving!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fatlazyless]

"Men like to step on the gas, and women like to step on the brakes," according to Woody Harrelson's character, Roy Munson, in the 1996 movie KINGPIN.
Last year, HB62 was passed by the NH house but lost in the senate by four votes and this year it will probably become law due to the november election changes. Five Republican gentlemen senators were beat out by five lady Democratic senator candidates.
All the proponents in the Citizen article above, Sandy Helve from WinnFabs, as well as Senator Katherin Sgambati and Senator Deborah Reynolds are all women.
So, do you think there's any truth to Roy Munson, that broken thumbed former bowlng champion from KINGPIN when he say's "men like to step on the gas, and women like to step on the brakes"?

da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da (theme from 1975 movie JAWS here) da-a-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da!

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

"
So, do you think there's any truth to what Roy Munson, that broken thumbed former bowlng champion from KINGPIN when he say's "men like to step on the gas, and women like to step on the brakes"?

You know, I never thought I'd ever see any wisdom coming from that (hilarious) movie, but yeah, it's true for the most part. There are notable exceptions though...

I have little faith in common sense, voters, and law makers and fully expect to see a speed limit on the lake, eventually. Fortunately, it really won't affect most folks, surely not me. I hope those that have fast boats let common sense prevail and continue to adhere to the safe passage law, but safely ignore a new speed law. That said, I would expect widespread contempt for all boating laws if the MP really focuses on enforcing speed limits. Wouldn't that be ironic?

[fatlazyless]

Last year's bill had a boat speeding ticket linked to one's NH Dept Motor Vehicles driving record. So, get one ticket and you lose your insurance, good driver, discount. Get two tickets, and the big companies like Progressive, Allstate, Geico, & State Farm shove you off to an affiliated high risk pool company. All way more expensive than the original $88.(?) ticket itself, and hang around for three years. I know, I found out the hard way.

[Chris Craft]

From a guy that has 36 years of sailing exp. including offshore racing and being involved in the US Olypic Sailing Team, and about 16 years of running high performance to include offshore power boat races (I did run in the races on the Lake). Ok great now you know I am not a 2 bit newbe hack...

The "GFBL" did bring this on themselves. We are the monority no doubt and in the past definatly made out presence felt. However, now we are REQUIRED to be under a certain DB limit.

I know of no accident that this would have stopped. Does anyone? I may be wrong? I have found that when people run their boats fast they are very focussed on what they do. There is really nothing that can distract you while driving fast.

I do not think that people going 45 is all of the sudden going to make being out in the middle of the lake in a Kayak safe.

I have heard two arguments from the pro side that seem to contradict one another. They say that the lake is over crowded and unsafe becaues of this. Then they say that people are afraid to go out. Well would that not make the lake more crowded and exaserbate the problem?

Over the last few years we have seen accident in NH be I believe it is cut in half. This is double what the national average is. The required licenses are working. They could be tougher to get and I am all for that. I got mine on line and I thought that was a bit of a joke. Lucky for everyone else I have as much experience as I do. I can see how people that do not would not benifiet from it.

Jon

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by lifeonthefarm

"loud pipes" don't save lives on the lake. They are illegal because you wouldn't be able to hear a Sound Producing Device if one was being blown to get your attention...

Thus the smiley face, a simple joke... Chill.

[jrc]

After a little vacation the speed limit debate is back. Seems like everyone is taking their same old positions. A few of the "speed limit only" posters are beginning to file back in. There may even be a few newbies, who haven't heard all the arguements before.

Does it make sense to hash all this over again? Too bad there isn't a short FAQ or primer to help out the newbies. I can't imagine anyone from the previous debates will be turned around by any of the old arguements.

The big difference this year is that the Democrats control the state goverment. So a different outcome is possible and I hate to say it, but probable.

Luckly, I've never owned a boat that could exceed 45 MPH, I don't even think I've been on a boat capable of that speed. Hopefully, my luck will continue and they'll come after someone else next and not me.

[DoTheMath]

So, with all the back and fourth of speed limit, no speed limit - kayak vs. "GFBL", blah blah... think about this. Have you ever watched, say a 38' performance boat at 60 mph drive past and a 38' floating condo (cruiser) drive past at 20mph? Can someone describe the difference in the resulting wake? Don't bother - I will! Performance boat, 'bout the same as a ski / wakeboard boat. Cruiser -'bout the same as what hits Oahu's north shore in season - huge!! Wreaks havoc on boats tied to docks, sea walls (or if you prefer lake / retaining walls), and is a sand castle killer for the kids on the beach, my little guy will testify to that! Now, same scenario when you are out and about in, say a kayak - Performance boat wake from a few hundred feet away, 'bout 12" - 15" (inches). Cruiser wake from same distance, 'bout 3' - 4' (feet) plus - better hang on! You have a statistically better chance of getting run down in your canoe or kayak by something OTHER than a performance boat on our lake for several reasons. Mostly for the simple fact it is just a law of averages... there are way more of all the other kinds out there and less of the GFBL type! Additionally, most of those "other" boats are (typically) less expensive, thus more accessible to the masses and thus more of them on the water, case-in-point - lake lice, or PWC's if you will. Cheap to buy, nothing to regulate their operation, lots of them out there! Now, take into consideration the cost to purchase and run a high performance boat - not going to find one of these tied to every other dock. It takes a decent amount of experience and skill just to run these at an "average" speed of say 35 mph, never mind a higher speed - as well as deep pockets! I know LOTS of owners of these types of boats, and all started behind the wheel of a boat when they were young and grew into the big performance boat, none have just bought one to get into boating for the first time. With the responsibility of ownership comes the forethought of "water on the water, beer on the pier" (thanks to PRA mag's Mr. Taylor for that one ;o). So, you will typically not find the "Dude, where are all the beers" guy driving the performance boat - he (or she as I know a couple of them too) has too much to loose, and enjoys the sport way too much to do something stupid - like that. They are into the fun of it and vested heavily, they love what they have the freedom to do and appreciate it very much! They respect the machine and all it can do, and in return are typically VERY conscientious and safe boaters. Are they ALL like this, no - of course not - but every bushel has a bad apple or two, but again - just the law of averages. And to be blunt and honest - lets face it, there is a socioeconomic factor that comes into play here, with expensive toys typically comes higher incomes - so save for the occasional yahoo that hits the lotto, there is a very good chance that whom ever is behind the wheel of that "GFBL" worked hard to get there, and is not out to throw it all away by making some sophomoric mistake. I bet of you did a survey of the "rules of the lake" you'd get 99% of the GFBL guys to nail 'em, and about 50% - if you're lucky - of the rest of the boaters to get about 50% right.

Listen, at the end of the day - I love to go out in a Kayak, they are a blast - but before 9:00 am and NOT in the main areas of the lake, let's be realistic here. I also own a "GFBL" too - and have owned several while on this lake, (been on here since I was 10 mo. old) and consider myself a very alert and responsible boater! Face it, things change, times change we are not watching B&W TV's, driving Pinto's and a 16' boat is no longer "the average". Technology has changed, incomes have grown and people work hard for their money these days, and like to play hard (and smart ;o) - it is up to them what type of boat they want to buy, and it is also up to them to operate it in a responsible manner for the benefit of everyone around them. The lake is here for EVERYONE to enjoy - I don't care of you own a canoe or a 40' GFBL that does (over 45 mph). It is all about boating smarter NOT slower - common courtesy and common sense need to prevail along with boater ed. (and certification, yeah I got mine...) and we'll ALL have a better, safer and happier lake to enjoy with our families!

[DoTheMath]

And we own a house ON the water, pay our taxes and totally respect what is our favorite place to spend our free time - along with our 22 mo. old son, the lake!

[Dave R]

DoTheMath, Interesting post. I agree with most of it. I think kayakers would probably prefer the big wake. Canoeists may have a different POV though. I know I prefer fast boats when I'm in my canoe. I suspect big cruisers will be the next target after GFBLs are outlawed. There are already lakes down south where big cruisers and GFBL boats are not allowed now.

Waiting for the speed limit crowd to jump all over the Littlefield exception... Ought to be entertaining since his actions contrast perfectly with your thoughts and observations of typical GFBL operators. I suspect the "bad apple" statement won't be enough to hold 'em back.

[Dave R]

I spent a weekend on the CT River last Summer. There IS A 45 MPH SPEED LIMIT on that river so you know it's got to be a haven for paddlers... WRONG! Other than the ICW in NJ, it was the most unsafe boating I have ever experienced. Still had a great time though, just had to be vigilant about other boaters who seemed clueless about proper operation.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Other than the ICW in NJ, .

Coming from NJ , I can honestly say you people have no problem at all
And as crazy and insane as it is on the weekends (in Jersey) , our safety record is VERY good.

[EricP]

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

.....case-in-point - lake lice, or PWC's if you will. Cheap to buy, nothing to regulate their operation, lots of them out there!

I completely threw out your whole rant when I saw this comment. Obviously you don't like PWC, but no reason to resort to name calling and insulting them. They are regulated by the same laws that your boats are.

[EricP]

What exactly is Winnfabb?