...eeek.....it's back.....eek....oh-no!

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Beware the Winnipesaukee sailor setting the World's Record for windsurfers!

Have seen two that definitely were traveling faster than 45 mph - they tend to prefer venturing out when the wind is really blowing - not exactly fair-weather sailors.

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Evenstar, let the State proceed with the will of the voters—many of whom won't accept the risks imposed by boating's status quo on Lake Winnipesaukee.

The will of the voters or the will of the political elite?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by GWC...

"...Have seen two that definitely were traveling faster than 45 mph - they tend to prefer venturing out when the wind is really blowing - not exactly fair-weather sailors..."

Agreed that windsurfers pick the windiest days, but it's odd that you think that windsurfers are traveling as fast as 45 mph. The world's record is 46 knots, and is regularly attempted at one of only two sites: Australia and Port St. Louis, France.

The waves at both locations are minimal due to a low, protective, berm of sand. The waves that slow these craft are kept down, whereas the wind remains the same.

You'll appreciate this French invitation to windsurf in 75 knot hurricane winds : http://www.internationalwindsurfing....29&newsid=1026

Originally Posted by Woodsy

"...There have been ZIP/ZERO/NADA accidents since 2002 that have occured at a speed GREATER THAN 45MPH...!

What speed was the 4-ton Formula going that flipped and sank in Tuftonboro waters in 2005?
What speed was the 4-ton Cigarette going that flipped and sank in 2004?
What speed was the 5-ton Fountain going that flipped and sank in Chestnut Cove in 2003?
What speed was the 5-ton boat going that flipped and sank in 1998?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

What speed was the 4-ton Formula going that flipped and sank in Tuftonboro waters in 2005?
What speed was the 4-ton Cigarette going that flipped and sank in 2004?
What speed was the 5-ton Fountain going that flipped and sank in Chestnut Cove in 2003?
What speed was the 5-ton boat going that flipped and sank in 1998?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

Why, I don't know, but I'm sure you will tell us, even if you don't know.

[Chris Craft]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Agreed that windsurfers pick the windiest days, but it's odd that you think that windsurfers are traveling as fast as 45 mph. The world's record is 46 knots, and is regularly attempted at one of only two sites: Australia and Port St. Louis, France.

The waves at both locations are minimal due to a low, protective, berm of sand. The waves that slow these craft are kept down, whereas the wind remains the same.

You'll appreciate this French invitation to windsurf in 75 knot hurricane winds : http://www.internationalwindsurfing....29&newsid=1026

World Record runs are your average run over 500 meters. There are times of speeds WELL in excess of record speeds and then well below and the average is...... My run was a instantanious burst radared by a State Policeman in very similiar contitions to what you listed behind the Seabrook Power Plant

[EricP]

Originally Posted by Chris Craft

World Record runs are your average run over 500 meters. There are times of speeds WELL in excess of record speeds and then well below and the average is...... My run was a instantanious burst radared by a State Policeman in very similiar contitions to what you listed behind the Seabrook Power Plant

There's a river by Mt Hood east of Portland, OR, I think it's the Columbia river, where they do some serious windsurfing, the wind there is always high and I'd bet they get some good speeds recorded there as well. I've seen as many as 100 windsurfers out there and it's a pretty cool site.

[Chris Craft]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

What speed was the 4-ton Formula going that flipped and sank in Tuftonboro waters in 2005?
What speed was the 4-ton Cigarette going that flipped and sank in 2004?
What speed was the 5-ton Fountain going that flipped and sank in Chestnut Cove in 2003?
What speed was the 5-ton boat going that flipped and sank in 1998?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

I can not speek for the other accidents but I am very familiar with the Cigarette accident as a friend of mine purchased that boat after it rolled over. The boat was traveling WELL below 45 miles per hour. The operator made a mistake while driving. The boat had very little damage to it proving this. The boat weights 7200 pounds.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by ITD

Why, I don't know, but I'm sure you will tell us, even if you don't know.

Nobody truly knows at what speeds those "flipped-and-sank" accidents occurred. NHRBA posted that they had acquired the NH Marine Patrol's 2002-2006 Accident Reports—wouldn't it be edifying to this discussion to disclose the factual speeds here?

http://wolfeboro.net/option,com_joom...limitstart,60/

Originally Posted by Chris Craft

"...I can not speek for the other accidents but I am very familiar with the Cigarette accident as a friend of mine purchased that boat after it rolled over. The boat was traveling WELL below 45 miles per hour. The operator made a mistake while driving..."

Sorry, Jon, but an anecdote is not a FACT.

(I'd very much like to read, "it rolled over" in an official MP report, too!)

Originally Posted by Chris Craft

World Record runs are your average run over 500 meters. There are times of speeds WELL in excess of record speeds and then well below and the average is...... My run was a instantanious burst radared by a State Policeman in very similiar contitions to what you listed behind the Seabrook Power Plant.

Radar? Reading a windsurfer?

Jon, are you speaking to the same effectiveness of radar over water as this post?

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...&postcount=101

We ran a radar trap for a Poker run in upstate NY. They were unable to get a read off ANY of our boats. That included one run that they asked us to go with in 30 feet of their boat. The radar was run by a certified officer and he could not make it work. So how do you measure speed on the water?

Jon

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Chris Craft

I can not speek for the other accidents but I am very familiar with the Cigarette accident as a friend of mine purchased that boat after it rolled over. The boat was traveling WELL below 45 miles per hour. The operator made a mistake while driving. The boat had very little damage to it proving this. The boat weights 7200 pounds.

I see both sides of the speed limit issue, which is why I have stayed quiet for the most part.... But um you are judging speed by the amount of damage.... that is not a fair assumption.... just because the boat didn't sustain what you would call major damage, doesn't mean it wasn't going fast....watch offshore racing sometime, I have seen some boats go through some pretty wild accidents and be ok on the other end. Well others have sank when you didn't see anything wrong........

There are two sides to this, and people have choosen their sides, and we will never all agree.... so lets admit to that....

[Weirs guy]

I see a lot of people posting about various accidents around the lake and wondering if they were caused by excessive speed, even going so far as to inferring that a speed limit could have prevented them.

I assume we will need to buy radar guns and train the MP on how to use them? Since I've seen radar guns clock pine tree's at 7 MPH (the tree later failed a field sobriety test as well), and anyone who's ever fought a speeding ticket knows that the police will admit they are inaccurate, then your 45 MPH speed limit becomes more like a 50 - 55 MPH enforceable limit. Is there a study or other FACTUAL information that shows a 50 - 55 MPH limit on Winni will prevent accidents?

Before my hard earned tax dollars are spent on enforcing a speed limit, wouldn't it make sense to determine if a speed limit will prevent accidents?

[Gavia immer]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

Is there a study or other FACTUAL information that shows a 50 - 55 MPH limit on Winni will prevent accidents?

My guess would be, that is pocket-change stuff to be overlooked. Doubling or tripling your numbers would put speeds into some awful serious territory.

[Woodsy]

The debate rages on!! Oh joy.....

WinnFabs picked 45MPH because thats what they have for a speed limit in MA and over on Lake George NY. There isn't ANY statistical data to support that 45 is a good number, its just an arbitrary number. One also has to remember that Lake George is a State park and you have to pay a fee to boat there. Niether Lake George nor MA has a 150' Safe Passage Rule... I can LEGALLY go by you 1 foot from your gunwale as long as I don't exceed 45MPH. Talk about not safe for canoeist & kayakers!!! Evenstar care to chime in on this??

FACTS we need to remember...

1. Boating registrations are UP while the accident rate is down! Safe Boater Education is WORKING!

2. There have been less than 180 reportable boating accidents that resulted in personal injury between 2002 and 2006. The primary source of these personal injuries is a result of individuals being pulled behind a vessel, such as water skis, wakeboards and/or tubes along with PWC’s. The State of New Hampshire has not had a boating fatality as the result of a collision in the last four years!!

3. NH has an average of 44 boating accidents that result in personal injury every year. Not too bad considering the 100,000+ boats we have registered in the state and god only knows how many day trippers from out-of-state!

Speed is not the issue here, and really it never was. The issues here are reckless operation or ignorance of the 150' Safe Passage Rule, and noise. Both problems we already have laws on the books for!

Woodsy

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

WinnFabs picked 45MPH because thats what they have for a speed limit in MA and over on Lake George NY. There isn't ANY statistical data to support that 45 is a good number, its just an arbitrary number. {snip}

As Gavia Immer said above, double and triple the 45 mph and you're into serious territory. The question is when are you into dangerous territory. There is no single number that's applicable to all places, all times and all situations. A speed that's perfectly appropriate for the Broads on a Wednesday afternoon is not likely to be a safe speed to use just outside of the Weirs on a July 4'th weekend with the sun in your eyes. Seems to me that 45 mph is neither fish nor fowl. It's too restrictive in a lot of times and places and not safe in others. I understand that such things are compromises but this one is just wrong. I would urge people to think about how they would encode what they think is speed proper for the circumstances into a rule. I would ask to people not what they feel is safe but what they know is unsafe (and how they know it).

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Chris Craft

To get a read with my windsurfer I had to strap TWO licence plates to my boddy to make it work. Prior to that we were getting VERY erratic readings.

'Happy that only two license plates were needed to get a likeable radar reading.

Marine radar in other states (as posed below) doesn't require any license plate:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

"...If the speed limit comes, and nothing changes, then what?? What will the new complaint be?? Call the MP, that boat was going faster than 45MPH...!"

As Dave R points out, speeds over 45 will produce rooster tails (plus a huge spray plume) that will identify it as excessive to the MPs.

Any news event on the lake will collect as many as seven MPs at one time: evasion is futile.

Originally Posted by Woodsy

"...It is truly amazing to me the complete willingness of some to take away somebody's civil liberty..."

From Wikipedia:
"...Basic civil liberties include freedom of association, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, and freedom of speech. There are also the rights to due process, to a fair trial and to privacy..."

Form a line at the rear to get that essential civil liberty for speedboating.

Originally Posted by Woodsy

"...The State of New Hampshire has not had a boating fatality as the result of a collision in the last four years!! ..."

Last I checked, that's the way it's supposed to work.

[Cal]

"...Basic civil liberties include freedom of association, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, and freedom of speech. There are also the rights to due process, to a fair trial and to privacy..."

In case you haven't noticed.....we've already lost most of these

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

The State of New Hampshire has not had a boating fatality as the result of a collision in the last four years!!

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

{snip} Last I checked, that's the way it's supposed to work.

Amazing, how did that happen ? I mean with no speed limits and all them dangerous boats out there creating all that anarchy, I'd have thought we'd have dozens of collisons each and every year. That not being the case it seems it's not quite so bad out there after all. That would seem to be a case for and not your .

[Island Life]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

Amazing, how did that happen ? I mean with no speed limits and all them dangerous boats out there creating all that anarchy, I'd have thought we'd have dozens of collisons each and every year. That not being the case it seems it's not quite so bad out there after all. That would seem to be a case for and not your .

Hmmmm . . . could it perhaps be, just perhaps of course, that the rest of us are being hyper-vigilant in our attempts to avoid potential collisions because it's sometimes such a mess out there. I know of many boaters who give way or change course when there are fast boats around because of bad experiences they've had with high-performance boats not giving way.

Now, that could happen with any size boat, of course (not giving way). My point is that some people are driving more defensively and this could contribute to fewer accidents.

[Chris Craft]

Originally Posted by Island Life

Hmmmm . . . could it perhaps be, just perhaps of course, that the rest of us are being hyper-vigilant in our attempts to avoid potential collisions because it's sometimes such a mess out there. I know of many boaters who give way or change course when there are fast boats around because of bad experiences they've had with high-performance boats not giving way.

Now, that could happen with any size boat, of course (not giving way). My point is that some people are driving more defensively and this could contribute to fewer accidents.

I agree I think that we are all being SUPER aware of our surroundings now. You have to be. I have had to alter my course for ALL kinds of boats. I have never had to alter my course for a boat going very fast. Not saying it does not happen it just has not happened to me. I think that people being aware that boating while fun is also needs to be taken seriously is helping. I for one am very happy that we have not had another collision and hope that we never have another.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Island Life

Hmmmm . . . could it perhaps be, just perhaps of course, that the rest of us are being hyper-vigilant in our attempts to avoid potential collisions because it's sometimes such a mess out there. I know of many boaters who give way or change course when there are fast boats around because of bad experiences they've had with high-performance boats not giving way.

Now, that could happen with any size boat, of course (not giving way). My point is that some people are driving more defensively and this could contribute to fewer accidents.

So your solution to the "mess" would be to institute speed limit and do away with defensive "driving"? I LIKE that other boaters operate in a "hyper-vigilant" manner, that's how anyone operating a boat should be; keeps us from hitting kayaks and such. I don't think a speed limit should stop us from being hyper-vigilant, boats are dangerous machine when operated carelessly.

Other than in a collision avoidance move, if a boater gives way when they are the stand on vessel, they are breaking the law. Perhaps it's these boaters who give way when they should stand on, solely due to the type of boats around them, that are the cause of the "mess".

If by "mess", you mean congestion, a speed limit will do nothing to relieve it.

[Island Life]

No, Dave, you know I don't mean to do away with defensive driving. Don't twist words into ridiculous conclusions to serve your own point.

What I'm saying is that sometimes we have to slow down and give way to high-performance boats because they are going to cross in front of our bow whether they have the right of way or not, simply because they have the horse-power to do it. That is what I mean by driving-defensively: collision avoidance. I've seen several boats slow down to a near stop to avoid colliding with a fast, give-way that had gunned it across their bow. If they hadn't done so, they would have passed within feet of the other boat (at best). And what if the faster boat had slowed down as it was crossing the slower boat's bow? Collision.


These boaters were not causing the problems, they were avoiding otherwise inevitable accidents - and, I believe, this is what we were discussing: why there are fewer accidents even though it sometimes like the Wild West out there.

[jeffk]

Boating is, by nature, significantly more complicated than driving a car because it involves operating on a largely unrestricted 360 degree surface. Even though the rules say you are primarily responsible for a smaller range where you are the give way vessel, it would be foolish not to be aware of all vessels anywhere around you. As pointed out, it would be foolish, and illegal, not to take action to avoid an anticipated collision. Defensive boating undoubtedly contributes to keeping the accident numbers down in the state.

That said, in the case where a vessel is operating as described, they have already violated the right-of-way regulations and also safe passage if they had come within a few feet of another boat. Since the operator is clearly a law breaking bonehead, what difference would the existence of a speed limit make? Would the "slower" boat have felt so secure that a speed limit would protect him that he would take no defensive action? I hope not. Would the bonehead realize that he was violating the speed limit although he is oblivious and unconcerned about the other laws he was breaking? I doubt it. Would the marine patrol, now armed with the mother of all laws, the speed limit, magically arrive to pull the scofflaw over. It would shock the heck out of me.

I have been boating on Winni for 12 years, longer than some, far less than others. I would note that the scenario described has indeed happened to me, multiple times every year, with one difference. I have never had it happen with a performance boat. All sorts of other boats, yes, even some unpowered ones. I don't deny that some performance boat operators might fall victim to the same lack of judgment that obviously infects so many boat operators on the lake, however it's not the type of boat that causes the problem, its the ignorance of the operator.

We have all the regulations we need to maintain safe boating. We need to continue to educate boaters, try to instill a sense of responsibility and boating courtesy, and enforce the laws we have. I'm not saying it's an easy or quick fix but in the long run it's the only thing that will really make a difference.

[Woodsy]

Regardless of who is the stand on boat or the give way boat, the captains of both boats are ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE for the safety of thier boat and are REQUIRED to do everything possible to avoid a collison. This means that on occasion, the stand on boat will need to give way. When in doubt of the other boats intentions, assess the situation, and if neccesary slow down or stop.

As far as some of the arguments presented by the pro-speed limit folks, the reality is we have more boats using the lake than ever, yet our accident rate is down. There have been no fatalities since 2002 as the result of a collision between boats. We can argue if its because of boater education or just better vigilance, but the fact remains... more boats, less accidents!

Woodsy

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Dave R

I don't think a speed limit should stop us from being hyper-vigilant, boats are dangerous machine when operated carelessly. I LIKE that other boaters operate in a "hyper-vigilant" manner, that's how anyone operating a boat should be; keeps us from hitting kayaks and such.

1) Psychologists say hyper-vigilance is exhausting: add sun, waves, wakes, alcohol, and inadequate hydration, and you have a recipe for tragedy.

2) Powerboating, at least, shouldn't be physically draining. Describing your own boat as "twitchy" at 50 mph, I'd sure hope the operator—and any boaters nearby—would be hydrated, sober, and attentive to those on the edge of control.

Originally Posted by Mee'n'Mac

Amazing, how did that happen ? I mean with no speed limits and all them dangerous boats out there creating all that anarchy, I'd have thought we'd have dozens of collisons each and every year.

1) The boating public has no access here to Marine Patrol report Boating Accidents 2002-2006.

Opponents credit education with the sudden accident downturn; however, on-line testing has been discontinued by the NHMP, citing their own poor administration of the test.

We see only what NHRBA opponents want us to see. (As previously cited, NHRBA has that report in hand).

2) IMHO, any reduction in accidents can be credited to Mother Nature:

For 2006, more rained-out weekends than I can ever remember.
For 2005, Mee'n'Mac opines fewer Winni boaters than in 2004. Or here.
For 2004, Fish & Game reported a "rainy and cool" summer.
For 2003, The state experienced a "rainy" summer.
For 2002, Our wakeup call. And dry summer. An extremely dry summer.
For 2001, FLL opined that attitude-change WILL take place:

365 days after FLL's post, letters appeared in print saying a fatality was inevitable—IF the Marine Patrol continues to allow lake anarchy. Two subsequent letters agreed—written even while unaware that a 4½-ton boat had crushed a Winnipesaukee retiree on his "small" 22-foot boat. It was not a good weekend.

Originally Posted by Woodsy

"...As far as some of the arguments presented by the pro-speed limit folks, the reality is we have more boats using the lake than ever..."

Citation needed. (Citations always needed at Woodsypedia.)

Originally Posted by Woodsy

"...We can argue if its because of boater education or just better vigilance..."

The best vigilance has been by NH on their own on-line Boater Education. Even though initiated and authorized by NH, they discounted their real value last year.

Originally Posted by Woodsy

...more boats, less accidents...

Woodsypedia again: citation needed.

If fewer accidents have resulted, inclement weather is a greater factor in fewer boats on the lake.

Higher gas prices would produce fewer miles traveled per boat.

Originally Posted by jrc

"...Does it make sense to hash all this over again? Too bad there isn't a short FAQ or primer to help out the newbies..."

Primer for 2002:

Angry boater: http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...mes;read=44802
Blame MP: http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...mes;read=44788
Blind MPs: http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...mes;read=44792
Get serious: http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...mes;read=44838
Out of Control: http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...mes;read=44854

Phew!

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

1) Psychologists say hyper-vigilance is exhausting: add sun, waves, wakes, alcohol, and inadequate hydration, and you have a recipe for tragedy.

2) Powerboating, at least, shouldn't be physically draining. When you describe your own boat as "twitchy" at 50 mph, I'd sure hope the operator—and any boaters nearby—would be hydrated, sober, and attentive to those on the edge of control.

Your ability to correlate the mental illnesses of war veterans with operating a boat on Winnipesaukee is a bigger stretch than inferring "twitchy" means "on the edge of control".

Quoting sources from a site called "Dementia.com" explains it perfectly though...

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Gavia immer

My guess would be, that is pocket-change stuff to be overlooked. Doubling or tripling your numbers would put speeds into some awful serious territory.

If one was going double the limit, there'd be no point stopping. The MP has no boats that can catch a boat that fast, the roostertail will obscure the name on the transom, and there's no way anyone's gonna be able to read 3" high bow numbers at that speed. Custom paint, like a big "look at me" name on the side of the boat, might be a problem though...

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

Before my hard earned tax dollars are spent on enforcing a speed limit, wouldn't it make sense to determine if a speed limit will prevent accidents?

This argument didn't work last year, can't imagine it will this year either. The State Senate voted down HB162 because it was "unenforceable", if memory serves, not because it was a bad idea.