House Votes To Raise Mandatory Life Jacket Age

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by Skip

Nightwing is correct. If you were told that PFDs were mandatory for a three (or four) up PWC then the officer was/is wrong.

I would highly recommend that the operator and all passengers of any size PWC wear a PFD, but the mandatory requirement for PWC (or skicraft) is one or two seaters under 13 feet capable of 20+ MPH.

Unfortunately this is one of several marine regulations here in the State that get confused or misapplied.

I like to bring this one up each year....who can show me the RSA or administrative rule that prohibits overnight anchoring on New Hampshire's inland waters???

TITLE XXII
NAVIGATION; HARBORS; COAST SURVEY
CHAPTER 270-A
USE OF HOUSEBOATS
Section 270-A:3
270-A:3 Where Overnight Mooring Prohibited. – No houseboat shall be beached or grounded, or tied to the shore of any of the inland surface waters of the state for an overnight period or any part of an overnight period, except as permitted in RSA 270-A:2 or in cases of emergency. No houseboat shall be anchored on any of the inland surface waters of the state for an overnight period or any part of an overnight period except as permitted in RSA 270-A:2 or in cases of emergency.

Source. 1967, 412:1, eff. Jan. 1, 1968.

[Skip]

Good one Nightwing.

Now here's the rub. Below I post the statutory definition of a houseboat. Now, there is only the banning overnight of HOUSEBOATS, but no general statute banning other boats!

Some say that the "temporary" covers the seat cushions on your boat and a toilet could be your bailing bucket. However, many of today's 20 footers and up come with porta-potties and obviously seat cushions. So, if these options make these bow-riders/cuddies "houseboats", why are they then not banned on the lakes & ponds in New Hampshire that do have specific bans on "houseboats"? Because they really are not "houseboats" and are found in abundnace on inland water bodies where true "houseboats" are banned!

Aha, what we have here is a classic legal loophole!

TITLE XXII
NAVIGATION; HARBORS; COAST SURVEY
CHAPTER 270-A
USE OF HOUSEBOATS
Section 270-A:1
270-A:1 Definitions. – The following words and phrases as used in this chapter shall have the following meanings, unless the context clearly requires otherwise:
I. ""Person'' means any individual, firm, co-partnership, company, association or joint-stock association, including any trustee, administrator, executor, receiver, assignee or other personal representative thereof.
II. ""Houseboat'' means any ship, boat, raft, float, catamaran or marine craft of any description upon or within which are located sleeping and toilet facilities, regardless of whether such facilities are of a permanent or temporary nature.
III. ""Overnight period'' means the period of time between the termination of daylight in the evening to the earliest dawn in the next morning.
IV. ""Mooring'' means beaching, grounding, or tying of a houseboat to the shore of any of the inland surface waters of the state, and the anchoring of a houseboat on any of the inland surface waters of the state.
Source. 1967, 412:1, eff. Jan. 1, 1968.

Here is an example of where HOUSEBOATS are specifically prohibited by law:

270:77 Squam and Conway Lakes and Silver Lake in Madison. – No person shall at any time place in or upon, or use, or operate upon, Squam Lake or Conway Lake or Silver Lake in Madison any houseboat. Whoever violates any provision of this section shall be guilty of a violation. Boards of health and health officers of towns abutting said lakes shall have power and authority to enforce the provisions of this section.

[jrc]

How is this enforced? On Winnipesaukee, overnight anchoring is clearly enforced against all cruiser type boat. (I have seen people get away with it after Labor Day) These boat have permanent sleeping and toilet facilities, so they are houseboats, right?

Do MP enforce the overnight anchoring rules against bowriders or pontoons? Can I anchor my bowrider at the sandbar overnight? Can I sleep on it? What if it has a porta-potty and a sleeping bag.

Can I take a cruiser on Squam? Can I take a bowrider or pontoon? What if it has a porta-potty and a sleeping bag?

I guess the rules are unclear, but how are they enforced?

[Skip]

Originally Posted by jrc

How is this enforced? On Winnipesaukee, overnight anchoring is clearly enforced against all cruiser type boat. (I have seen people get away with it after Labor Day) These boat have permanent sleeping and toilet facilities, so they are houseboats, right?

Do MP enforce the overnight anchoring rules against bowriders or pontoons? Can I anchor my bowrider at the sandbar overnight? Can I sleep on it? What if it has a porta-potty and a sleeping bag.

Can I take a cruiser on Squam? Can I take a bowrider or pontoon? What if it has a porta-potty and a sleeping bag?

I guess the rules are unclear, but how are they enforced?

I point this out to let people know just how vague some of our regulations are and how they contradict each other.

It also points out the danger of making blanket statements when it comes to our local, state and federal laws. No wonder there is so many lawyers out there.

Take IslandLovers blanket statement that bicycles must abide by speed laws. There is an RSA that says generally bicyclists must follow motor vehicle laws. However, there is a separate RSA that states that speed laws only apply to (mechanized) vehicles. One contradicts the other. Many of you may remember the bicyclist arrested for DWI several years ago. Because the bicycle & motor vehicle code were contradictory the case was headed to the Supreme Court to determine the legality of applying those laws. Of course both sides were afraid of the outcome and the case was settled.

The point here is the blanket statement in the boating guide that overnight anchoring is illegal in New Hampshire is not supported in totality by a New Hampshire RSA or the Administrative Code. It is quite clear that houseboats cannot anchor overnight. Houseboats also have a fairly clear definition. What I am pointing out here is, in my opinon, a common perception held by many about staying out overnight in a boat that is not a houseboat. And remember, the overnight prohibition appears in a specific chapter devoted exclusively to houseboats.

Anyway, I bring this diversion up as an interesting point of discussion. Let me rephrase the question, can anyone show me a RSA or an Administrative rule that prohibits overnight anchoring for any vessel other than a houseboat?

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Skip

{snip} Anyway, I bring this diversion up as an interesting point of discussion. Let me rephrase the question, can anyone show me a RSA or an Administrative rule that prohibits overnight anchoring for any vessel other than a houseboat?

I can't and to revive another related question ... is it legal to anchor for the fireworks displays ? Note the aforementioned RSA, particularly the portion that says "or any part of an overnight period except as permitted in RSA 270-A:2 or in cases of emergency." I guess it's OK in a skiff but not in a cruiser.


Back to PFDs ....

I assume everyone knows that the USCG was floating the idea that all people should wear PFDs, all the time. There was some talk (a couple of years ago) about making it a regulation for boats under 21'. I wonder what people would say about this, should it come to pass and the States follow the lead for their inland waters.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

...Back to PFDs ....

I assume everyone knows that the USCG was floating the idea that all people should wear PFDs, all the time. There was some talk (a couple of years ago) about making it a regulation for boats under 21'. I wonder what people would say about this, should it come to pass and the States follow the lead for their inland waters.

I apologize for hijacking the thread....Don has full permission to whip me with a wet Winnipesaukee map the next time we bump in to each other!

Back to point, I would be opposed to the possible regulation you cite.

[Island Lover]

Originally Posted by Skip

... Take IslandLovers blanket statement that bicycles must abide by speed laws. There is an RSA that says generally bicyclists must follow motor vehicle laws. However, there is a separate RSA that states that speed laws only apply to (mechanized) vehicles. One contradicts the other.

Sorry Skip, bicycles ARE mechanized vehicles. Therefore speed laws apply.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Island Lover

Sorry Skip, bicycles ARE mechanized vehicles. Therefore speed laws apply.

Sorry....in order to convict on a speed offense in New Hampshire one must prove "to drive". In New Hampshire "to drive" means to operate a motor vehicle. A bicycle by definition is a self propelled vehicle but not a motor vehicle.

To give you an example, several years ago a bicyclist was arrersted in New Hampshire for DWI (the first and only such recorded arrest). During the trial the key element was to make the assumption that a bicycle is a vehicle and subject to the motor vehicle code. As the case went forward both sides agreed to settle on a charge of reckless conduct and drop the motor vehicle charges agreeing that the code was not clear, while a group of lawmakers on both sides of the issue promised to take up the statute and clarify it.

Results? No conviction under the motor vehicle code and no definitive action yet from the legislature.

Police officers in this State before and since have not attempted to apply offenses requiring "to drive" to bicyclists, for obvious legal and common sense reasons.

Hope this helps!

[Rose]

Originally Posted by Skip

In New Hampshire "to drive" means to operate a motor vehicle.

I man in New Jersey was charged with drunk driving while operating a Zamboni...he blew 0.12. A judge threw out the case, declaring Zambonis are not motor vehicles.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/03/new....ap/index.html

Sorry to get off track...just thought of this thread when I read the article.

[Island Lover]

Skip

My point was that you were incorrect about about a bicycle being a mechanized vehicle.

So instead of taking the long way around the barn, just answer the main question please.

Is a bicycle a mechanized vehicle?

[fatlazyless]

Maybe five years ago, I was stopped by a Waterville Valley police officer because I was riding a bicycle after dark with no lights, no helmet and was weaving back and forth, slalom style, across the center white line on Rt 49. I cannot remember what he said but I did not get cited for any violation. Probably he said, I could not be seen in the dark, and maybe he was just checking to see if I was sober......which I was.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Island Lover

Skip

My point was that you were incorrect about about a bicycle being a mechanized vehicle.

So instead of taking the long way around the barn, just answer the main question please.

Is a bicycle a mechanized vehicle?

Sorry, your point was that a bicycle was subject to this State's speed regulations. My response is that they are not, and I have cited the pertinent regulations that define same and the only case in the State where an unsuccesful attempt was made to try to connect those dots.

I'll try this one last time....

Speed laws in New Hampshire pertain to motor vehicles.

They pertain to motor vehicles because a key element in the offense of unreasonable speed is "to Drive".

In New Hampshire "to Drive" is legally defined as to operate a motor vehicle.

A bicycle is not a motor vehicle. Under certain limited conditions a bicycle can be defined under the motor vehicle code as a vehicle, along with a horse or a mule or a donkey. But a vehicle is not the same legal definition as a motor vehicle!

Now, since you cannot meet all the necessary legal elements required to convict for unreasonable speed:

Speed laws do not apply.

Hope this clarifies it for you!

[Merrymeeting]

Originally Posted by Skip

Under certain limited conditions a bicycle can be defined under the motor vehicle code as a vehicle, along with a horse or a mule or a donkey. But a vehicle is not the same legal definition as a motor vehicle!

Now, since you cannot meet all the necessary legal elements required to convict for unreasonable speed:

Speed laws do not apply.

In some places however, you can be accused of DUI while on a horse!

http://www.comcast.net/news/strange/...03/627400.html

[Island Lover]

Originally Posted by Skip

Sorry, your point was that a bicycle was subject to this State's speed regulations. My response is that they are not, and I have cited the pertinent regulations that define same and the only case in the State where an unsuccesful attempt was made to try to connect those dots.

I'll try this one last time....

Speed laws in New Hampshire pertain to motor vehicles.

They pertain to motor vehicles because a key element in the offense of unreasonable speed is "to Drive".

In New Hampshire "to Drive" is legally defined as to operate a motor vehicle.

A bicycle is not a motor vehicle. Under certain limited conditions a bicycle can be defined under the motor vehicle code as a vehicle, along with a horse or a mule or a donkey. But a vehicle is not the same legal definition as a motor vehicle!

Now, since you cannot meet all the necessary legal elements required to convict for unreasonable speed:

Speed laws do not apply.

Hope this clarifies it for you!

Skip

That time you not only went around the barn, you got lost in the hay bale! Are you unable to answer a strait question, or do you have a problem admitting you made a mistake? Is a bicycle a mechanized vehicle? That's one of those "yes" or "no" things.

You have not "cited the pertinent regulations" you just say that it is so. Give us the RSA number.

Below is the RSA that pertains to bicycles and motor vehicle laws. If you know of an RSA that counters this, please give us the number without the long "explanation".

265:143 Application of Motor Vehicle Laws to Bicycles. –
I. Every person propelling a vehicle by human power or riding a bicycle shall have all of the rights and be subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver of any other vehicle under the rules of the road, except as provided in paragraph II and as to special regulations in this subdivision and except as to those provisions which by their nature can have no application.
II. (a) Any peace officer, wearing a distinctive uniform, operating a bicycle during the course of his or her duties is exempt from the provisions of this subdivision, except as those provisions relate to driving under the influence of alcoholic beverages or drugs, if the bicycle is being operated under any of the following circumstances:
(1) In response to an emergency call.
(2) While engaged in a rescue operation.
(3) In the immediate pursuit of an actual or suspected violator of the law.
(b) This paragraph shall not relieve a peace officer from the duty to operate a bicycle with due regard for the safety of all persons using the public way.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Island Lover

... except as provided in paragraph II and as to special regulations in this subdivision and except as to those provisions which by their nature can have no application...

The key here is the phrase "by their nature can have no application".

In order to be found guilty of a violation in the State of New Hampshire ALL elements of the offense must be proven by the state. One of the elements of unreasonable speed in New Hampshire is "to Drive" which can be found in RSA 259:24. The legal definition of "to Drive " in New Hampshire is to drive a motor vehicle. If you go to the basic speed law at RSA 265:60 (I) the opening paragraph is "No person shall drive". A bicycle is not a motor vehicle hence the element of "to Drive" cannot be substantiated, therefore you cannot violate the current speed laws in New Hampshire as written on a bicycle (or a mule, horse or donkey). Either that or I must have been asleep in my radar certification class!

It's really as simple as that....but again don't take my word for it, look up the case. The effort you will expend will give you a much greater appreciation of our State's motor vehicle code!

Anyway, please feel free to contact me off line and I would be glad to help you get your head better wrapped around this concept....

[Island Lover]

Yes Skip, a bicycles is not a motor vehicle. I think we all agree on that.

However RSA 265:143 clearly states that bicycles are subject to all the laws that a motor vehicle is.

Your "Drive" definition 259:24 only applies to motor vehicles. And as we have all agreed, a bicycle is not a motor vehicle.

I guess your real intension here is to talk this issue in circles so that most readers will give up and not follow what is going on. However you and I both know that you are wrong, but will not admit it.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Island Lover

...However RSA 265:143 clearly states that bicycles are subject to all the laws that a motor vehicle is...

Of course that is not what RSA 265:143 states. If indeed a bicycle was "subject to all laws that a motor vehicle is" then the following would be true:

No one under 16 could "drive" a bicycle!
Before you could "drive" your you would need lights, mirrors, a horn and working wipers!
And of course you could only burn unleaded gasoline in your bicycle!

I can only chalk up your obstinance over this matter as a complete misread of the statutes involved, much as you misinterpreted HB125 in your post #1 of the same named thread by not fully reading or understanding paragraph II of the proposed legislation.

But hey, maybe you are right and all that training and experience I have had in this particular matter was for naught. Yep, I better head right up to Radio Shack and get one of those new fangled cordless RADAR/LASER detectors that are on sale and mount it right up high on my handlebars!

They're still legal on bikes, right?

[Parker Island Fun]

Live free or die is more then a slogan. The operator of a boat should be responsible not a bunch of quacks in Concord.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Parker Island Fun

Live free or die is more then a slogan. The operator of a boat should be responsible not a bunch of quacks in Concord.

Agreed & well said!