Boating decal, rental bills clear hurdles....

Fisherjeep · 04-02-2007, 02:51 PM

Why doesn't New Hampshire just ban all out of state boaters and be done with it? This constant barage of licences, speed limits, stickers, etc is ridiculous. It is quite clear to me that the owners of the McMansions want everbody off "their" lake. It would be best to just announce that from now on the only people welcome on the lake are shorefront property owners with property valued above 2 mil. I have been fishing and boating on the lake for over 25 years I have contributed greatly to the area through my purchases of fishing licences boating registrations, loging .meals etc.
If New Hampshire continues to reach into the pockets of out of state boaters they will stop coming. Then the next big issue on this forum will be the failing economy in the lakes region.

ITD · 04-02-2007, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fisherjeep

Why doesn't New Hampshire just ban all out of state boaters and be done with it? This constant barage of licences, speed limits, stickers, etc is ridiculous. It is quite clear to me that the owners of the McMansions want everbody off "their" lake. It would be best to just announce that from now on the only people welcome on the lake are shorefront property owners with property valued above 2 mil. I have been fishing and boating on the lake for over 25 years I have contributed greatly to the area through my purchases of fishing licences boating registrations, loging .meals etc.
If New Hampshire continues to reach into the pockets of out of state boaters they will stop coming. Then the next big issue on this forum will be the failing economy in the lakes region.

Huh?????

Barking up the wrong tree here, if your going to rant, at least get the story straight...........

Fisherjeep · 04-02-2007, 07:04 PM

Maybe you could educate me then. The way I read this bill is, as an out of state boater who does not register my boat in NH I am going to be forced to pay an additional $20 for a sticker. Is this correct?

ITD · 04-02-2007, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fisherjeep

Maybe you could educate me then. The way I read this bill is, as an out of state boater who does not register my boat in NH I am going to be forced to pay an additional $20 for a sticker. Is this correct?

Yeah, I think you got that part right, at least according to Woodsy's original post. The part you're wrong about is blaming the lake front and mcmansion owners for this. Instead you should be blaming the liberal tax and spend legislature for this. ( I know this was championed by a "Republican", I stand by my statement.) Most of the lakefront owners I know could care less about you and your fishing pole and certainly wouldn't be sitting around trying to devise a $20 sticker to make you stay away. Many of us are from out of state also and are used to being turned upside down and having the money shaken out of our pockets by the perpetual tax and spend pols. Many of us also knew what we were getting into when we bought our properties. Welcome to the club. Enjoy the lake.

Fisherjeep · 04-03-2007, 08:22 AM

Sorry for the rant but, what I was trying to say is between operator licencing (ridiculous), the price of an out of state fishing licence and now the possible addition of another fee to hit the out of staters I think NH is shooting itself in the foot. How much does it take before the out of stater decides it is not worth the trip? also, factor in high fuel cost to get there. These people are the bread and butter for the region. Maybe it's time NH stops turning them upside down and shaking the money out of their pockets. NH may have some serious revenue issues but I just think reaching deeper into the tourist pockets is not the answer.

ITD · 04-03-2007, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fisherjeep

Sorry for the rant but, what I was trying to say is between operator licencing (ridiculous), the price of an out of state fishing licence and now the possible addition of another fee to hit the out of staters I think NH is shooting itself in the foot. How much does it take before the out of stater decides it is not worth the trip? also, factor in high fuel cost to get there. These people are the bread and butter for the region. Maybe it's time NH stops turning them upside down and shaking the money out of their pockets. NH may have some serious revenue issues but I just think reaching deeper into the tourist pockets is not the answer.

No problem, nothing wrong with a good rant, I just wanted to make sure you directed your anger were it belongs, not to say some lakefront owners think the way you describe, but most if not all I know don't. Also, don't think of the issues as revenue issues, think of them as spending issues which require the politicians to figure out how to forcibly extract money from us to pay for their inefficiency.

Phantom · 04-03-2007, 04:14 PM

Rayhunt --- most states have an Annual decal for use with the bow numbers. That allows easy identification of wether the craft or for that matter snowmobile (and my car is not registered in NH) I suspect your license plates do too.

Skip · 04-12-2007, 10:01 AM

The House, by an overwhelming margin, passed the $20 non-resident boater decal fee on to the Senate yesterday.

Brief article in today's on-line edition of the Union Leader.

WeirsBeachBoater · 04-12-2007, 11:51 AM

Can you post the HB # ? I want to read the amended version.

Skip · 04-12-2007, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

Can you post the HB # ? I want to read the amended version.

You will be looking for HB 815....

WeirsBeachBoater · 04-12-2007, 03:20 PM

Looking at it now amended, this really only effects out of state registered craft. NH bow numbers will not have to display an additional sticker. So if someone from ME or MA comes to the lake they will have to get this sticker to go beside their MA1234 Bow #'s. I also saw that the rental agent bill made it through the House and on to the Senate. I especially like that one, its about time rental agents were made more accountable. IMO

LIforrelaxin · 04-12-2007, 09:10 PM

I find this bill very interesting. You would think that in a state where the tourists are extremely important to the enconomy they would try to do things to entice people to come and visit. Not that I think many people will be detered from coming to NH because of this extra fee.... but it may stop some..... Another issue here I see, is that if the state expects out of staters to pay a fee to go boating, then the state better start making improvements in both the availability and conditions of public ramps.... After growing up out west where there where always nice ramps and docking facilities for the general public at lakes and rivers, I find that the facilities all over the northeast are poor, and if a state like NH wants out of state boater to pay a fee to use it lakes, it needs to also provide the facilities for people to do so....

I know they are working on this, on many lakes..... but if they want to pass a bill like this they need to hasten thier efforts....

Airwaves · 04-12-2007, 10:17 PM

Back in the 70's NH had something called a "Commuter Tax". NH imposed a tax on Mass and Maine residents (and anyone else) that commuted to work in NH but lived out of state.

As I recall it was ruled an illegal tax because it was imposed on one group of people (out of state residents) but not another (in state residents who worked out of state.)

So how would this be different? If out of state boaters are required to purchase a decal to boat in NH and that decal was made available to an in state boater for free.

Given that registrations are reciprocal between states how would this be legal?

It would be like saying to MA, ME, VT, NY drivers you need to pay a fee (beyond those obnoxious tolls that hit everyone) to drive in NH but NH registered vehicles do not have to pay the additional fee.

I have both a NH and MA registered boat. So I am not qualified in one, but I am in the other?

Lawyers are going to make a killing!

Woodsy · 04-13-2007, 08:37 AM

Its no different than Maine requiring out-of-state boaters to purchase a "Milfoil" sticker... In fact ALOT of states charge different fees to boat on thier state waters. Lake George NY has an access fee.

I am sure its very much allowed

Woodsy

LIforrelaxin · 04-13-2007, 09:00 AM

It is all in the wording.... if NH (or Maine, or NY) made out of staters Register boats then it would be a problem....but why if they call it an "Milfoil fee" or "education fee" then I am sure it slides through the loop holes..... Now do I think it is right....hell no.... why someone may ask.... because what is next..... not necessarily a "commuter tax" but gezzz what about a "education sticker" for an automobile to make sure out of staters know any state specific driving rules.... There is a slippery slope here...

Skip · 04-13-2007, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Its no different than Maine requiring out-of-state boaters to purchase a "Milfoil" sticker... In fact ALOT of states charge different fees to boat on thier state waters. Lake George NY has an access fee.

I am sure its very much allowed

Woodsy

Woodsy is correct. There is a huge legal difference between tax and fee issues concerning the motoring public and fees individual states attach for state owned entities, like inland waters.

The States receive federal funding for roadways and there is ample case law discerning what fees and taxes can be imposed on folks travelling roadways.

However, the inland waterways are owned by the State of New Hampshire with no such federal impositions. The State can and does charge access fees where necessary.

In Airwaves case, he/she will not have to purchase a sticker for his/her New Hampshire registered boat, but will have to purchase a sticker for the boat not registered in this State, if the bill is passed as proposed.

I am no way saying the bill is fair or even a smart proposal. My only point here is the State is allowed to impose such fees on its inland waters if it so desires.

Think of it as an enhanced registration fee for an out of state entity. No more illegal than the different set of fees each state charges for its out of state OHRVers, snowmobilers, hunters, etc.

LIforrelaxin · 04-13-2007, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skip

Woodsy is correct. There is a huge legal difference between tax and fee issues concerning the motoring public and fees individual states attach for state owned entities, like inland waters.

The States receive federal funding for roadways and there is ample case law discerning what fees and taxes can be imposed on folks travelling roadways.

However, the inland waterways are owned by the State of New Hampshire with no such federal impositions. The State can and does charge access fees where necessary.

Skip for the most part I agree with what you are saying, however people must realize here that the State does get Federal Money that goes to help protect the lakes and rivers, as well I believe there is some Federal Money that goes to the Marine Patrol.... So much like the roadways there are some issues here that could make this a slippery slope and cause a lot of controversy. And much like Making NH recongnize out of state registrtions back in the 80s the Federal Goverment has input to all of this as well.... Hence why this is being called a "education" sticker....there are loop holes all over the place.... and once they do this for boats don't think they will not think about clever ways to do things for automobiles....weather they are able to pass anything or not is another story.....

Airwaves · 04-14-2007, 03:35 PM

I found this story on the wire today, as I read it, both in state Maine boaters and out of state boaters have been required to buy a "milfoil" sticker. (unlike the proposed law in NH where NH boaters would not be required to buy the sticker)
The change will mean that Maine registered boats won't have to display the second sticker, but the fee (tax) will be included in their registration while out of state boaters will have to pay the fee (tax) and display the decal.

Quote:

Maine boaters are required to get two stickers when they register their boats. But that will change under a law that's been enacted by the Legislature.
A bill signed into law yesterday by Governor Baldacci combines Maine's ten-dollar lake and river protection sticker fee with the state's watercraft registration fee. It means the state will issue only one sticker to Maine resident boat owners.
The new law won't change fees that are charged. But it will save the state money by streamlining production and administration costs.
Only watercraft registered outside Maine will have to display a current lake and river protection sticker.

I also wanted to point out the same thing LIforrelaxin posted. NH does get federal dollars for the inland waterways so while the state "owns" inland waters such as Winnipesaukee, federal dollars are involved.

If NH passes something like this, and it ticks off the "right" people in MA, I can see a new border war...my warped mind could see a MA lawmaker deciding all NH registered motor vehicles traveling in MA pay an "insurance fee" to drive on MA roads since according to the NH DMV website

Quote:

New Hampshire is unusual in that you are not required to have automobile insurance. This policy reflects the state's traditionally conservative philosophy of minimized regulation; however, while New Hampshire prefers that drivers carry liability insurance if at all possible, certain drivers are required to carry it.

We haven't had a good border war since the days of Mel Thompson and Ed King!

TomC · 04-12-2007, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skip

The House, by an overwhelming margin, passed the $20 non-resident boater decal fee on to the Senate yesterday.

Non-RESIDENT or non-REGISTERED in NH?

Many non-residents have boats registered in NH. Is it a correct assumption that if the boat displays NH Bow Numbers, this $20 "stick-em-up"....er... sticker fee.... is not required?

Woodsy · 04-12-2007, 01:24 PM

I am pretty sure the bill is for non NH registered boats.... very similar in scope to what Maine requires for out-of-state boaters.

Woodsy

Skip · 04-12-2007, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

I am pretty sure the bill is for non NH registered boats.... very similar in scope to what Maine requires for out-of-state boaters.

Woodsy

Woodsy is correct..if the boat is not displaying a New Hampshire registration then it will need the supplemental decal.

Remember, this has only passed the House. It must now survive the Senate where it can be rejected or ammended prior to being sent off to the Governor's office for a signature.

04-03-2007, 04:14 PM	#7
Phantom Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Berlin, Ma / Gilford Posts: 1,934 Thanks: 450 Thanked 605 Times in 341 Posts	Rayhunt --- most states have an Annual decal for use with the bow numbers. That allows easy identification of wether the craft or for that matter snowmobile (and my car is not registered in NH) I suspect your license plates do too. __________________ *A bad day on the Big Lake (although I've never had one) - Still beats a day at the office!!*

04-12-2007, 10:01 AM	#8
Skip Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Dover, NH Posts: 1,615 Thanks: 256 Thanked 514 Times in 182 Posts	House passes $20 non-resident decal fee... The House, by an overwhelming margin, passed the $20 non-resident boater decal fee on to the Senate yesterday. Brief article in today's on-line edition of the Union Leader.

04-12-2007, 11:51 AM	#9
WeirsBeachBoater Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 709 Blog Entries: 9 Thanks: 39 Thanked 148 Times in 65 Posts	Skip Can you post the HB # ? I want to read the amended version.

04-12-2007, 03:20 PM	#11
WeirsBeachBoater Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 709 Blog Entries: 9 Thanks: 39 Thanked 148 Times in 65 Posts	Thanks Looking at it now amended, this really only effects out of state registered craft. NH bow numbers will not have to display an additional sticker. So if someone from ME or MA comes to the lake they will have to get this sticker to go beside their MA1234 Bow #'s. I also saw that the rental agent bill made it through the House and on to the Senate. I especially like that one, its about time rental agents were made more accountable. IMO

04-12-2007, 09:10 PM	#12
LIforrelaxin Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Texas, Lake Ray Hubbard and NH, Long Island Winnipesaukee Posts: 2,876 Thanks: 1,037 Thanked 892 Times in 524 Posts	Kind of funny I find this bill very interesting. You would think that in a state where the tourists are extremely important to the enconomy they would try to do things to entice people to come and visit. Not that I think many people will be detered from coming to NH because of this extra fee.... but it may stop some..... Another issue here I see, is that if the state expects out of staters to pay a fee to go boating, then the state better start making improvements in both the availability and conditions of public ramps.... After growing up out west where there where always nice ramps and docking facilities for the general public at lakes and rivers, I find that the facilities all over the northeast are poor, and if a state like NH wants out of state boater to pay a fee to use it lakes, it needs to also provide the facilities for people to do so.... I know they are working on this, on many lakes..... but if they want to pass a bill like this they need to hasten thier efforts.... __________________ Life is about how much time you can spend relaxing... I do it on an island that isn't really an island.....

04-02-2007, 02:51 PM	#1
Fisherjeep Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 7 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Why doesn't New Hampshire just ban all out of state boaters and be done with it? This constant barage of licences, speed limits, stickers, etc is ridiculous. It is quite clear to me that the owners of the McMansions want everbody off "their" lake. It would be best to just announce that from now on the only people welcome on the lake are shorefront property owners with property valued above 2 mil. I have been fishing and boating on the lake for over 25 years I have contributed greatly to the area through my purchases of fishing licences boating registrations, loging .meals etc. If New Hampshire continues to reach into the pockets of out of state boaters they will stop coming. Then the next big issue on this forum will be the failing economy in the lakes region.

04-02-2007, 07:04 PM	#3
Fisherjeep Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 7 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Maybe you could educate me then. The way I read this bill is, as an out of state boater who does not register my boat in NH I am going to be forced to pay an additional $20 for a sticker. Is this correct?

04-03-2007, 08:22 AM	#5
Fisherjeep Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 7 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sorry for the rant but, what I was trying to say is between operator licencing (ridiculous), the price of an out of state fishing licence and now the possible addition of another fee to hit the out of staters I think NH is shooting itself in the foot. How much does it take before the out of stater decides it is not worth the trip? also, factor in high fuel cost to get there. These people are the bread and butter for the region. Maybe it's time NH stops turning them upside down and shaking the money out of their pockets. NH may have some serious revenue issues but I just think reaching deeper into the tourist pockets is not the answer.

04-12-2007, 10:17 PM	#13
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	Back in the 70's NH had something called a "Commuter Tax". NH imposed a tax on Mass and Maine residents (and anyone else) that commuted to work in NH but lived out of state. As I recall it was ruled an illegal tax because it was imposed on one group of people (out of state residents) but not another (in state residents who worked out of state.) So how would this be different? If out of state boaters are required to purchase a decal to boat in NH and that decal was made available to an in state boater for free. Given that registrations are reciprocal between states how would this be legal? It would be like saying to MA, ME, VT, NY drivers you need to pay a fee (beyond those obnoxious tolls that hit everyone) to drive in NH but NH registered vehicles do not have to pay the additional fee. I have both a NH and MA registered boat. So I am not qualified in one, but I am in the other? Lawyers are going to make a killing!

04-13-2007, 08:37 AM	#14
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,966 Thanks: 80 Thanked 980 Times in 440 Posts	Its no different than Maine requiring out-of-state boaters to purchase a "Milfoil" sticker... In fact ALOT of states charge different fees to boat on thier state waters. Lake George NY has an access fee. I am sure its very much allowed Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

04-13-2007, 09:00 AM	#15
LIforrelaxin Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Texas, Lake Ray Hubbard and NH, Long Island Winnipesaukee Posts: 2,876 Thanks: 1,037 Thanked 892 Times in 524 Posts	Wording It is all in the wording.... if NH (or Maine, or NY) made out of staters Register boats then it would be a problem....but why if they call it an "Milfoil fee" or "education fee" then I am sure it slides through the loop holes..... Now do I think it is right....hell no.... why someone may ask.... because what is next..... not necessarily a "commuter tax" but gezzz what about a "education sticker" for an automobile to make sure out of staters know any state specific driving rules.... There is a slippery slope here... __________________ Life is about how much time you can spend relaxing... I do it on an island that isn't really an island.....

04-12-2007, 01:24 PM	#20
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,966 Thanks: 80 Thanked 980 Times in 440 Posts	I am pretty sure the bill is for non NH registered boats.... very similar in scope to what Maine requires for out-of-state boaters. Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.