No Dogs at Boat Launch

LilacHill · 05-07-2007, 03:03 PM

We went to the boat launch with the dogs today in Alton and they changed the signage to read NO DOGS. Why? Where are we supposed to go with them? No where in town apparently. What was the reason behind this? Does anyone know and what can we do to get this changed? My taxes are going to help pay for this stuff and the only thing we use recreationally is the boat ramp for the dogs.

pmj · 05-07-2007, 04:10 PM

Just a guess here..but believe it or not there are some people who don't clean up after their dogs do their "doo-dy". I am thinking it is for the pleasantry of walking through the beautiful park-like surroundings without finding an unpleasant surprise on your shoes.
Just a hunch, though. Perhaps the people at the town hall can verify the reason.

NightWing · 05-07-2007, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilacHill

We went to the boat launch with the dogs today in Alton and they changed the signage to read NO DOGS. Why? Where are we supposed to go with them? No where in town apparently. What was the reason behind this? Does anyone know and what can we do to get this changed? My taxes are going to help pay for this stuff and the only thing we use recreationally is the boat ramp for the dogs.

Not meaning to sound disrespectful but why is it the town's responsibility to provide a recreational site for your pets? Where are you supposed to go with them? How about home in your yard. If they want water to play in, get a kiddie pool or set up a sprinkler.

There are several dog parks around the state where your dogs can run and enjoy a vast, secure playground dedicated to them. They can be found with a Google Search.

As an afterthought, the recreational purpose of the boat ramps is for the launching and retrieving of boats, not dogs.

I am a dog lover and owner and I keep my pet leashed or crated when I can't supervise him in the house. He is not allowed to run loose at any time. He gets healthy walks and eats excellent food. He has been to obedience school and has good social skills. I love him to death and tend to spoil him. My town has a beautiful park that has facilities for soccer, softball, basketball and a kiddie playground. It also has signs that say NO DOGS. I respect that and realize that the park was built for people and not pets.

Knot Droolin' · 05-07-2007, 05:24 PM

Nightwing,

Way off the subject but, I disagree that crating a dog is anyway to show you are a great dog lover or trainer. I do agree you have the right to do so, but I do not think it is in any way a good argument for being a good dog owner.

LilacHill · 05-07-2007, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightWing

Not meaning to sound disrespectful but why is it the town's responsibility to provide a recreational site for your pets? Where are you supposed to go with them? How about home in your yard. If they want water to play in, get a kiddie pool or set up a sprinkler.

There are several dog parks around the state where your dogs can run and enjoy a vast, secure playground dedicated to them. They can be found with a Google Search.

As an afterthought, the recreational purpose of the boat ramps is for the launching and retrieving of boats, not dogs.

I am a dog lover and owner and I keep my pet leashed or crated when I can't supervise him in the house. He is not allowed to run loose at any time. He gets healthy walks and eats excellent food. He has been to obedience school and has good social skills. I love him to death and tend to spoil him. My town has a beautiful park that has facilities for soccer, softball, basketball and a kiddie playground. It also has signs that say NO DOGS. I respect that and realize that the park was built for people and not pets.

The boat launch has been a place people who live here can take their dogs to swim for more years than I can remember. This change was not posted anywhere for imput and discussion. As to dog parks I would never take my dogs to such a filthy place where clueless people let their dogs run amok and fights break out at the drop of a hat. Terriers do not belong in dog parks. No thanks.

Do you live in Alton? If not I don't think you have any room to talk. As for the leashing and crating comments, what ever gave you the impression my dogs are ever off lead in public? Here's a news flash THEY AREN'T. As for the boat ramps they aren't busy at the time we go with the dogs which is the point. An as a matter of fact today there wasn't anyone even attempting to use the ramp which is the case most days we go.

A kiddie pool and sprinkler do not allow for water retrival training do they?

nj2nh · 05-07-2007, 06:48 PM

Just have to jump in here as I am wont to do.

First, as for crates. My dog loves hers. When the door is open, she stays there - sometimes for hours. I was opposed to crates and didn't use one for my first dog, but we did for our current pooch. She feels secure and safe in it. When we leave and don't put her in her crate, she often climbs in anyway. If the door is closed and she can get in, she crawls under the kitchen table as it simulates the crate. So, please, do not use the use of a crate as a reason to attack someone about their dogs.

Secondly, as for the boat launch, there must be some valid reason. However, I do agree with the second person who posted that it is a boat launch, not a dog area. Having said that, I can't complain as we have our own beach. My dog, ironically, hates it! Our first one loved the water, but not this one.

So, please, why don't you just give the town hall a call and find out. I would bet my last buck that someone complained and up went the sign. That is how these things work everywhere!

Just my two (or maybe three) cents,

Jersey Girl

P.S. After that Nor'easter, my dog could have gone swimming in my backyard! Ick.

Alton Mumma · 05-07-2007, 06:53 PM

I haven't been in Alton all that long, but I do remember when you could take the dogs to the boat ramp. I think it changed some time last summer. Bummer too, it was a great activity for the dogs and their owners, it gave them access to the lake but away from public swim areas. Not sure why it's changed, perhaps pmj is right and it was because of irresponsible pet owners not doing their "doo-ty." We just keep our wiener dog home now and he plays in the kiddie pool, but he's little (only 10 lbs) so he can get his splash on in pretty well at home, for bigger dogs it's not quite as fun.

Not sure why all the hub-bub over different training techniques. Guess I'm a bad dog owner too, since my Stewie has a crate.

He loves it in there, it's his little "safe zone" he's got his fluffy little bed in there and it's a nice snug den-like environment.

NightWing · 05-07-2007, 07:19 PM

I was not in favor of crating my puppy either, but it was explained to me that it is a natural tendency for canines to seek some sort of den.

My particular dog, an Italian greyhound can never be left unattended and loose, no matter what the situation. He is a gaze hound and will chase after anything that moves if it suits his fancy. His ability to dart into traffic while chasing a leaf or a butterfly is just too great a risk to take.

As a condition of purchase, I had to sign an agreement to keep the dog under my control at all times and never to let him run free. Of course, a fenced yard might be an exception but it would have to be a tall fence because this breed is like an antelope and can jump extremely high.

My dog loves his crate because he can feel comfort and safety. When he is tired, he will go to the crate.

Pineedles · 05-07-2007, 07:38 PM

I got a pet peeve! GET RID OF THE DANCING BANANAS! It's driving me crazy!!! Dog on ramps, in crates, playing crazy eights are fine. Just get rid of these dancing bananas and I'll be glad to donate.

Knot Droolin' · 05-07-2007, 07:51 PM

Nightwing,

As you say, in your case a crate it is required to keep you dog safe. As I stated:

"I do agree you have the right to do so, but I do not think it is in any way a good argument for being a good dog owner."

I agree many people crate, but because it is a sensitive subject, I did not think it was a good argument given the context in which it was given. Meaning crating is not a prerequisite of good ownership. I completely agree with you on leashes!

Here is a thought for all the dog owners out there:

I pick up ALL dog potty I come across. I figure there are probably only about 10% of the dog owners out there that are not responsible. If the rest of us responsible owners chip in, we (us and our dogs) won't be kicked out of every place we enjoy going. This is extra work, but you will never get irrespnsible people to be responsible so we all need to help bag that potty!

abay · 05-07-2007, 07:57 PM

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here - the Alton boat ramp is adjacent to a public swimming area. There are usually a lot of people there, and as has already been mentioned, I'm afraid it is the few irresponsible dog owners who have ruined it for the rest.

Aquadeziac · 05-07-2007, 08:12 PM

Judging by what I see at the Gilford boat launch, it comes down to the few can ruin it for the many. I can't count the number of times I have tried to launch or retrieve and someone and their dog are occupying the ramp as a doggie playground playing fetch in the water and I have actually had to get out and ask them to get their dog out of the water so I can use the ramp. Its these inconsiderate rubes that ruin it for the responsible owner that merely wants a quick splash for the dog and a little walk. If you let the good people do it you have to let the rubes also. And, unfortunately, the only way to stop the rubes is to stop everyone. Life is not fair, but we must all deal with it.

NightWing · 05-07-2007, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knot Droolin'

Nightwing,

As you say, in your case a crate it is required to keep you dog safe. As I stated:

"I do agree you have the right to do so, but I do not think it is in any way a good argument for being a good dog owner."

I agree many people crate, but because it is a sensitive subject, I did not think it was a good argument given the context in which it was given. Meaning crating is not a prerequisite of good ownership. I completely agree with you on leashes!

Here is a thought for all the dog owners out there:

I pick up ALL dog potty I come across. I figure there are probably only about 10% of the dog owners out there that are not responsible. If the rest of us responsible owners chip in, we (us and our dogs) won't be kicked out of every place we enjoy going. This is extra work, but you will never get irrespnsible people to be responsible so we all need to help bag that potty!

In no way did I mean that it was an indicator of good ownership. I was just stating a fact. Dogs do not need a romp in a lake to have a good life.

Bear Islander · 05-08-2007, 07:33 AM

I think the real issue here is dog poop in the lake. Most beaches do not allow dogs. When a dog poops near a lake where do you think it ends up? What happens the next time it rains?

The bacteria content of the lake is a serious issue. Many older lake homes are spending up to $50K to upgrade septic systems. The lake is my drinking water supply.

If the State Legislature wants to protect the lakes they should worry less about pine needles and make a law that requires scooping within x number of feet of the lake.

chipj29 · 05-08-2007, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knot Droolin'

Nightwing,

Way off the subject but, I disagree that crating a dog is anyway to show you are a great dog lover or trainer. I do agree you have the right to do so, but I do not think it is in any way a good argument for being a good dog owner.

At the risk of running this thread off topic, I have to strongly disagree with this statement. We have 3 dalmations, who we crate when we are not home. It keeps the dogs safe, they can't eat something that could hurt them, and they can't eat the furniture while we are gone. I could train them until I am blue in the face, but if they see something they want to eat, they will.

I crate my dogs. While that alone does not make me a good dog owner, it certainly is part of it.

SIKSUKR · 05-08-2007, 08:04 AM

I think someone needs an attitude adjustment.Boat ramps are for BOATS.Not for DOGS.As Aqua stated,I've had issues with some dogs in the way at the Gilford ramp.It's not the dogs fault but the careless owner.I've also stepped in dog crap twice there. Why is that hard to understand?Actually,on the other side of the fence,I see the same guy at the ramp with his old dog quite often and he is very aware of ramp users and immediately has his dog move out of the way.Not a really big deal.I have more of a problem with kids playing on the ramp in the water with mom saying nothing with she sits right next to the "no swimming at ramp" sign.Oh well!

LilacHill · 05-08-2007, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

I think someone needs an attitude adjustment.Boat ramps are for BOATS.Not for DOGS.As Aqua stated,I've had issues with some dogs in the way at the Gilford ramp.It's not the dogs fault but the careless owner.I've also stepped in dog crap twice there. Why is that hard to understand?Actually,on the other side of the fence,I see the same guy at the ramp with his old dog quite often and he is very aware of ramp users and immediately has his dog move out of the way.Not a really big deal.I have more of a problem with kids playing on the ramp in the water with mom saying nothing with she sits right next to the "no swimming at ramp" sign.Oh well!

Yeah well we are the ones that immediately get out of the way the second a boat approached the town dock or a trailer even enters the lot by Shibley's. We also do more than our fair share of picking up peoples' dog crap they leave behind. My dogs have been jumped by loose dogs at the ramp while they have been ON lead.

If the ramp is not in use for boats it is just sitting there vacant. What is needed are ENFORCED rules of conduct. Heck I'd even pay for a pass every summer to be able to bring my old dysplastic dog to swim. She does better with daily swims. Again this is Alton not Gilford.

ApS · 05-08-2007, 08:47 AM

Earlier, Alton should have put up signs like Vancouver, BC, has:

RLW · 05-08-2007, 09:53 AM

I believee there is another good reason for not letting them swim at the Alton ramp is that they are about 20 feet from the public swimming area. One could go and let their dogs swim in the nice pond just across the street from the fire station and then they would not be by swimming areas or boat ramps and it is a great place to sit and eat ones lunch while watching their dog (s). Problem solved. Now that wasn't hard was it???

LilacHill · 05-08-2007, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLW

I believee there is another good reason for not letting them swim at the Alton ramp is that they are about 20 feet from the public swimming area. One could go and let their dogs swim in the nice pond just across the street from the fire station and then they would not be by swimming areas or boat ramps and it is a great place to sit and eat ones lunch while watching their dog (s). Problem solved. Now that wasn't hard was it???

No that isn't a solution. Have you seen the size of the alligator snapping turtles in that pond and the stream down off it? Turtles that size can handily remove a dog's leg and they have been known to do so. So that's a solution, how?

tricia1218 · 05-08-2007, 10:26 AM

As a dog owner I agree, if dogs are not allowed they are not allowed.

People claim their dogs are well behaved, and they are not. My dog doesn't bark, meanwhile the dog is barking, I clean up after my pet, you pick up everything? hmm. It is like dog owners (myself included) are sometimes so oblivious to their pets behavior. And of course my dog is not included in this grouping he is a perfect angel ;-)

RLW · 05-08-2007, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilacHill

No that isn't a solution. Have you seen the size of the alligator snapping turtles in that pond and the stream down off it? Turtles that size can handily remove a dog's leg and they have been known to do so. So that's a solution, how?

If you have alligators in that pond you had better run don't walk to see the ACO in Alton as they are not allowed in the inland lakes and ponds. As far as turtles, you do not think they aren't any large ones in the big lake that could take a dogs leg off. If so you are sadly mistaken. Our small lake up on the mountain have huge turtles 20 to 24inches across, but my dog hasn't lost a leg nor have the grandchildren been bothered by them. I think this topic has gone far enough. It appears a sign has been posted and we as adults just need to bit the bullet and obey what it says.

LilacHill · 05-08-2007, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLW

If you have alligators in that pond you had better run don't walk to see the ACO in Alton as they are not allowed in the inland lakes and ponds. As far as turtles, you do not think they aren't any large ones in the big lake that could take a dogs leg off. If so you are sadly mistaken. Our small lake up on the mountain have huge turtles 20 to 24inches across, but my dog hasn't lost a leg nor have the grandchildren been bothered by them. I think this topic has gone far enough. It appears a sign has been posted and we as adults just need to bit the bullet and obey what it says.

Alligator snapping turtles are not alligators. They stay away from places where there is a lot of activity as they lie in wait for prey then strike. They have a tongue that acts as a lure. The ponds by the fire station have a hefty population of them we have seen them and photographed them. Even saw a large one killing a smaller one. So the fact they haven't bothered you at Hills Pond doesn't surprise me as they would hang out by less active spots. That's my point. There is all liklihood of a dog or a person even getting bitten by one over at the fire station.

Who says I let the dogs go swimming anyway? Implying that we didn't take the dogs home and forget their swim and that we didn't obey the signage is wrong. And why has it gone far enough? I'm not the only other responsible person in Alton who has lost a spot to take the dogs because of irresponsible people.

Here's an idea, why don't we just take them to your house? You're actually closer to us anyway..............

NightWing · 05-08-2007, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilacHill

...................

Here's an idea, why don't we just take them to your house? ..........

Here's another idea...........why not entertain them at your home?

LilacHill · 05-08-2007, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightWing

Here's another idea...........why not entertain them at your home?

It's a public boat launch. If permits are needed fine I have NO problem doing that at all. As to why the kiddie pool etc. won't work at home I do believe that's been covered a few posts up............

NightWing · 05-08-2007, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilacHill

It's a public boat launch.

Yes, not a public dog launch.

Why not pick up the phone and call the town offices and ask of/complain to them?

Weirs guy · 05-08-2007, 12:05 PM

So let me get this right, a dog doing his business at the boat ramp near the public beach is worse then your boat leaking god-knows-what at the same spot? Of course I'm sure each of you responsible boat owners make sure you don't have any leaks, but it only takes a few to ruin it for everyone. Maybe we should ban the boat launch all together?

I see no reason why dogs can't use the boat ramp along with the boats. If we're going to outlaw all of the little things that inconvenience us because a few inconsiderate individuals ruin it then there goes driving, boating, vacations, eating out, watching tv, vacations at the lake, tourism....

WINDinmySOCKIES · 05-08-2007, 02:17 PM

Holy Cow!! As I read all of this, I can only think .......
The dogs are much smarter than us humans because they can't talk, and unlike us, are easily trained.

GTO · 05-08-2007, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WINDinmySOCKIES

Holy Cow!! As I read all of this, I can only think .......
The dogs are much smarter than us humans because they can't talk, and unlike us, are easily trained.

Maybe we should be put in crates

mcdude · 05-08-2007, 04:41 PM

Karen:
I am curious as well. I would direct my question to the Alton Parks and Recreation Dept by e-mailing them at parksrec@alton.nh.gov

If you hear from them, be sure to let us know what they had to say. Will dogs also be banned from the newly refurbished town beach?

When my "Hooch" and "Lady" were still alive, they would love to take a ride in the Jeep and take a dip at the boat ramp at either Manning Lake or Crystal Lake...right in your neck of the woods. Also the beach at the Boy Scout Camp at Lake Eileen is usually vacant most of the year and is a publicly accessible property. Usually, no one is around and you can let the doggies off the leash to romp around!

McD

LilacHill · 05-08-2007, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcdude

Karen:
I am curious as well. I would direct my question to the Alton Parks and Recreation Dept by e-mailing them at parksrec@alton.nh.gov

If you hear from them, be sure to let us know what they had to say. Will dogs also be banned from the newly refurbished town beach?

When my "Hooch" and "Lady" were still alive, they would love to take a ride in the Jeep and take a dip at the boat ramp at either Manning Lake or Crystal Lake...right in your neck of the woods. Also the beach at the Boy Scout Camp at Lake Eileen is usually vacant most of the year and is a publicly accessible property. Usually, no one is around and you can let the doggies off the leash to romp around!

McD

They are banned from the other town beach already I went and looked. They can't go anywhere over at the new one not even under the pavillion thing. I was going to call the Boy Scout caretaker and ask about using their property, they already said we can use the trails with the horses.

I don't know where on Crystal Lake the boat ramp is, I'd rather go to an unoccupied spot (without the snappers!) and my kids tend to go to Crystal Lake more than the big one, there is sand and not that many people. I generally don't let them off lead away from home, I'm too worried they'd take off and get lost. They probably wouldn't, but it's one of my phobias

The thing is, both these are in Gilmanton and it's a sad day when Alton has nowhere for pet owners in town to work/play with their dogs in town. I had specifically asked about this too that's what really is upsetting. I asked if they'd close all beaches to dogs after the other park was finished. I guess it was OK as long as the other side was a dump

We're heading down there tomorrow to inquire the feasability of some sort of permit system or something being set up.

Knot Droolin' · 05-08-2007, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chipj29

At the risk of running this thread off topic, I have to strongly disagree with this statement. We have 3 dalmations, who we crate when we are not home. It keeps the dogs safe, they can't eat something that could hurt them, and they can't eat the furniture while we are gone. I could train them until I am blue in the face, but if they see something they want to eat, they will.

I crate my dogs. While that alone does not make me a good dog owner, it certainly is part of it.

Again, crating is NOT part of good dog ownership! It may be needed for certain dogs but not for most. Especially those who take well to training.

Argie's Wife · 05-08-2007, 10:01 PM

Alton received money from the state that had certain strings or standards or whatever you wish to call them, attached to them. One of them was the "no dogs" issue. I believe it was mainly for health reasons. This issue was addressed at the deliberative session, earlier this year. One town member was concerned that it provided an "unwelcomed" feel to the area, however there were some town members who worked very hard on this project to make sure it was completed.

It's still a huge improvement on the way that beach was before all the hard work was done... I know Pete Bolster was a main player in that. He's now a selectman and could probably address your concerns much better than I can here. (I was just at all the meetings...)

Nonetheless, I would think the sign would more pertain to people hanging out there with Fido more than it would to those who were simply "passing thru" to launch a boat that Fido was going to also ride in.... Wouldn't you think? :-)

NightWing · 05-08-2007, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knot Droolin'

Again, crating is NOT part of good dog ownership! It may be needed for certain dogs but not for most. Especially those who take well to training.

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1696

chipj29 · 05-09-2007, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knot Droolin'

Again, crating is NOT part of good dog ownership! It may be needed for certain dogs but not for most. Especially those who take well to training.

I cannot disagree strongly enough. I will leave it at that.

Rose · 05-09-2007, 06:57 AM

I think the point that Knot Droolin' is trying to make is that Chipj29's post seems to imply (though this is may not be their intent) that if one doesn't crate, they're not a good owner. The link you posted, Nightwing, is an excellent reference for when and when not to crate.

SIKSUKR · 05-09-2007, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilacHill

I don't know where on Crystal Lake the boat ramp is, I'd rather go to an unoccupied spot (without the snappers!) and my kids tend to go to Crystal Lake more than the big one, there is sand and not that many people. I generally don't let them off lead away from home, I'm too worried they'd take off and get lost. They probably wouldn't, but it's one of my phobias

.

In your #5 post you were rather abrasive responding to nightwing that your dogs were not ever off their leases in public and here you say they generally are not.You also say here you would rather go to an unoccupied spot.I can't imagine a more occupied spot than a boat launch at Winnipesaukee.I'm not judging you but these inconsistencies don't help your argument.

LilacHill · 05-09-2007, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

In your #5 post you were rather abrasive responding to nightwing that your dogs were not ever off their leases in public and here you say they generally are not.You also say here you would rather go to an unoccupied spot.I can't imagine a more occupied spot than a boat launch at Winnipesaukee.I'm not judging you but these inconsistencies don't help your argument.

I don't. The only one off lead on a stay that is for pictures ONLY is the old hag Cuddles. 99.5% of the time she is on lead as well. So no my dogs are not off lead in public.

IF there was another spot to take them on the lake I would take them there, however there isn't. The boal ramp was it for public access so unless you have another spot in mind on the lake that would allow dogs for all of 20 minutes max at a time, there is no other choice.

As to the unoccupied, sure that would be ideal, wouldn't it? Not having to worry about loose dogs jumping on my intact male and humping him while the owner yells at us for having a female in heat in public........ That was classic and sadly all too common.

So if the choice is boat ramp or no swimming? Boat ramp it is. Ideal? No but when it's the only game in town you deal with it.

Cal · 05-09-2007, 10:53 AM

This could turn into another speed limit type debate

. I have cats , who stay in the house , use a litter box and believe water is only for drinking. I'm exempt from this one , so far.
Funny how every new "Law" removes somebodies "Rights"

Bear Islander · 05-09-2007, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

So let me get this right, a dog doing his business at the boat ramp near the public beach is worse then your boat leaking god-knows-what at the same spot? Of course I'm sure each of you responsible boat owners make sure you don't have any leaks, but it only takes a few to ruin it for everyone. Maybe we should ban the boat launch all together?

I see no reason why dogs can't use the boat ramp along with the boats. If we're going to outlaw all of the little things that inconvenience us because a few inconsiderate individuals ruin it then there goes driving, boating, vacations, eating out, watching tv, vacations at the lake, tourism....

Yes! Dog poop at the boat ramp is far worse than what comes out of your boat bilge. Each poop contains billions of coliform bacteria that can make humans sick or even kill them. We spend billions of dollars on septic systems for human waste, yet permit dogs, who also have coliform bacteria in their feces, to poop within feet of a drinking water supply.

There is a huge business around the lake in upgrading septic systems. This is a particular problem on the islands due to higher costs and fewer options. This is important work because many unexplained infections and illnesses come from swimming in or drinking contaminated water. Small children the elderly and those with suppressed immune systems can die from this pollution.

The bacteria level of our lake is often very high, especially in the summer. Beaches have been closed many times because of high bacteria counts. When do you hear about beaches closed due to boat bilge?

Here is some reading on the subject

http://www.usatoday.com/news/science...7-dog-usat.htm

http://www.lmvp.org/Waterline/spring2003/scoop.htm

Weirs guy · 05-09-2007, 11:21 AM

I see your points Bear Islander, but I still say that an occasional doggie present is no worse than:

1. the rainbow covered slick on the water I have to swim through behind my neighbors boats.
2. mcmansion mclawn mcfertilizers.
3. whatever the bears, deers and other critters are doing in the lake and on the shore.
4. whatever the birds hanging out by the pier do in the water.

Bear Islander · 05-09-2007, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

I see your points Bear Islander, but I still say that an occasional doggie present is no worse than:

1. the rainbow covered slick on the water I have to swim through behind my neighbors boats.
2. mcmansion mclawn mcfertilizers.
3. whatever the bears, deers and other critters are doing in the lake and on the shore.
4. whatever the birds hanging out by the pier do in the water.

Petroleum and fertilizer contamination of water are a problem, but again, they have not caused any beaches to be closed down on Winni. But what is your argument here? Other people pollute so its OK if my dog craps in your drinking water? Not really a viable excuse!

The feces of wild animals also contain coliform but what makes you think they are leaving them at the lakes edge? An animal may deposit them anywhere but dogs are led to the waters edge by their owners, sometimes by a chain. It is the concentration in one area that causes bacteria levels to rise above what is considered safe.

Beaches and waterfront parks do not prohibit dogs because they don't like dogs. It's because of the concentration of sources for coliform bacteria.

Argie's Wife · 05-09-2007, 01:03 PM

...not just that, but why would you and the family WANT to frequent a beach that's full of doggie landmines?

If dog owners were more responsible to pick up after Fido when he goes, then this wouldn't be an issue...

LilacHill · 05-09-2007, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

...not just that, but why would you and the family WANT to frequent a beach that's full of doggie landmines?

If dog owners were more responsible to pick up after Fido when he goes, then this wouldn't be an issue...

That's my point. A permit, log in, something is better than nothing. And we always pick up all the poo we see even if it wasn't our dogs that left it.

hazelnut · 05-09-2007, 01:30 PM

Let me start by saying I love dogs, I've had dogs. However, there are many people out there who do not share our love of dogs. There are also many people who have a phobia concerning dogs. At a public beach/boat launch those people should not be subjected to dogs. I'm sure there are dog parks and plenty of places where dogs are welcome.

Looking at it from the perspective of health and safety it is not a good idea for dogs to be in that area. Besides It is only a matter of time before somebody sues somebody or the town for a dog bite or an owner suing when his fido is killed by a boater.

I think the solution would be a Designated Dog Swim Area. Not to lobby against opening a Boat Launch to dog swimming.

Rose · 05-10-2007, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

The feces of wild animals also contain coliform but what makes you think they are leaving them at the lakes edge?

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...73280638302418

Also, this snippet from a Save the Harbor/Save the Bay report indicates children who wear diapers should be added to the list of potential sources of contamination.

"What causes beach closures?
The SAC explored the causes of beach closures and identified an
extensive list of potential sources of beach contamination. Sources
considered include combined sewer overflows (CSOs), stormwater,
untreated sewage from leaky pipes and illegal hookups that empty
into storm sewers, waste from recreational and commercial vessels,
and sediments contaminated by pathogens. Other sources, which
potentially impact beaches, include pet waste, sea and shore birds,
and dirty diapers on the beaches."

Let's face it, parents, whether they be of two-legged or four-legged children, who don't clean up after their children are problems. Of course, if you say anything against a two-legged child, you're verbally lynched.

Weirs guy · 05-10-2007, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Petroleum and fertilizer contamination of water are a problem, but again, they have not caused any beaches to be closed down on Winni. But what is your argument here? Other people pollute so its OK if my dog craps in your drinking water? Not really a viable excuse!

The feces of wild animals also contain coliform but what makes you think they are leaving them at the lakes edge? An animal may deposit them anywhere but dogs are led to the waters edge by their owners, sometimes by a chain. It is the concentration in one area that causes bacteria levels to rise above what is considered safe.

Beaches and waterfront parks do not prohibit dogs because they don't like dogs. It's because of the concentration of sources for coliform bacteria.

My argument is that if the ban is a result of animal waste contaminating the water, then lets ban ALL the things that do. Are you insinuating that since petroleum and fertilizer haven't caused any beach closings then there ok to put in someone else's drinking water? Of course not. As you stated, other people polluting is not a viable excuse for you to do so.

As to beach closings, I personally find it hard to believe that the yearly beach closings are a only direct result of dog poo poo in the lake. While its certainly a contributing factor, I can't believe its the only cause. So again, if we're banning dogs from the lake, lets get rid of the other pollutants too.

I guess my point is its easy to stop the other guy from being the issue, until we are the other guy. I'd like nothing better then to never see a boat, vacationer or "summer resident" around the lake again, but they all have the same right to a good time as I do. Just as LilacHill's doggies have the same right to swim in the lake as people do (based on the fact that LilacHill's taxes help pay for the ramp upkeep, just like the residents with boats do).

Anywho, I'll agree to disagree with you and look forward to your rebuttal.

Bear Islander · 05-10-2007, 02:52 PM

I don't think dogs are the reason for beaches being closed. Mostly because dogs are not allowed on beaches.

Dogs, failed septic systems and dirty beach diapers are all sources of coliform bacteria. Add what nature supplies from birds and other animals and you have unsafe water for drinking or swimming.

Lakewinniboater · 05-11-2007, 03:57 PM

Do you live in Alton? If not I don't think you have any room to talk. As for the leashing and crating comments, what ever gave you the impression my dogs are ever off lead in public? Here's a news flash THEY AREN'T. As for the boat ramps they aren't busy at the time we go with the dogs which is the point. An as a matter of fact today there wasn't anyone even attempting to use the ramp which is the case most days we go.

A kiddie pool and sprinkler do not allow for water retrival training do they?[/QUOTE]

I do live in Alton Bay and very often use the public ramp instead of ours, as it is easier to utilize.

First, I AM A DOG LOVER..... however, I do agree with part of the rebuttles here. The ramp is not a place for the dogs and HAS caused problems at TIMES. It really isn't a good spot for dogs, kids or anyone else to the use and play on.

I am sure there was a reason for the new rule... and as the town goes... they don't have to ask for input from guests or property owners.

I know this sounds harsh.... I don't mean it to.... just think of it from others point of view.

I am SURE that there are MANY public places that you can go alternately for your terrier's enjoyment. As the forum... they will surely give you LOTS of idea's on safe places!

Lakewinniboater · 05-11-2007, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilacHill

That's my point. A permit, log in, something is better than nothing. And we always pick up all the poo we see even if it wasn't our dogs that left it.

Part of it may be that SOME people are afraid of dogs. I love them.... but some HUMANS are terrified of dogs. Some of them might be ones making the rules!

You say that yours are terriers in an earlier post..... they are pit bull terriers. Some people are afraid of them BECAUSE of irresponsibly people that trained them inappropriately.

I know that there has been unfair treatment and I am sure that you don't like Breed Specific Legislation.... and not being able to get Home Owners Insurance from some companies.

HOWEVER, that is life. the GFBL boats don't like being singled out or banned either. It is life and unfortunately it happens to everyone at some point.

I think it would be a better use of time to search for another spot and fall in love with going there and except the situation.

Just my 2 cents

Gavia immer · 05-11-2007, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

It's not the dogs fault but the careless owner.I've also stepped in dog crap twice there.

Not "keeping a proper watch"?

Allowing a dog to swim in the lake is shared fun for dog and family. Summer fun is what it's all about. A yellow tennis ball tossed for Fido into the lake or a Frisbee toss, are a big part of summer on the lake for Labs and Retrievers, the most popular breeds of dogs today. I'm also reasonably certain that dogs don't poop while swimming.

Sharing the cruise with your dog seems like the right thing to do, too. But boaters who take long cruises also know that dogs refuse to poop while on board. Where else to let them take a "comfort break" than back at the boat ramp? Of course, you'd be expected to "pick up after".

Locals who let their dogs cool off need a space that's "public". A public boat ramp that is not in use is OK with me.

kunamola · 05-12-2007, 06:21 AM

If a dog is swimming at a public spot and you claim he is never in public without being on a lead, does that mean he/she swims with the leash on?

LilacHill · 05-12-2007, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunamola

If a dog is swimming at a public spot and you claim he is never in public without being on a lead, does that mean he/she swims with the leash on?

Yes. They are on a 15 foot line and that's because I'd rather lose a tennis ball toy than have to swim out to the middle of Alton bay after the dog!

As I said before the only time anyone is off lead it's Cuddles and she's in a down or a sit stay for picture taking ONLY. A tree could fall on this dog and she won't break a stay.

These were a week after almost losing her to Addison's disease. We celebrated by taking her to the lake. She went in once and was happy.

Skipper of the Sea Que · 05-13-2007, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilacHill

We went to the boat launch with the dogs today in Alton and they changed the signage to read NO DOGS. {snip} and the only thing we use recreationally is the boat ramp for the dogs.

The town politicians, in their infinite wisdom, have chosen to specifically exclude dogs from the public boat ramp. That could mean that all other pet critters are allowed. My son's friend can bring his pet Boa Constrictor (with harness of course

) to swim around at the ramp and near the beach? Pet Alligators or other exotic pets (legal pets of course). Is there an RSA or generally accepted policy covering that kind of logic? (Hey SKIP

)

Lilac, are there any non-posted public water access spots in Alton for the dogs to use?

My K9 doesn't like to play in the water unless she can chase the ducks. She'll never catch one but she does help keep them away from the beach. No humans are in charge of cleaning up after the ducks and geese the way many of us clean up after our pets. Which would you rather have around, flocks of ducks, geese and seagulls or a well behaved and controlled dog?

BTW In Boston there is a pooper-scooper law. You must bag and properly dispose of all your dog's droppings. So far I have not heard of any of our fine policemen collecting the evidence from pooper-scooper violations

Do they make swim diapers for dogs? They make some for real little kids to use in swimming pools or at the beach so why not allow properly diapered dogs? Even limit it to a few, low use, hours of the day. That might be an acceptable compromise if enough people feel as Lilac does.

or

LilacHill · 05-13-2007, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que

The town politicians, in their infinite wisdom, have chosen to specifically exclude dogs from the public boat ramp. That could mean that all other pet critters are allowed. My son's friend can bring his pet Boa Constrictor (with harness of course

) to swim around at the ramp and near the beach? Pet Alligators or other exotic pets (legal pets of course). Is there an RSA or generally accepted policy covering that kind of logic? (Hey SKIP

)

Lilac, are there any non-posted public water access spots in Alton for the dogs to use?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm you've hit on something here.......... According to this we can bring the horses down to the ramp OR beach for a swim if we wanted to but not the dogs. Ironic isn't it?

NO there are no non posted public lake access spots dogs can be on in town. Heck the only 2 people access spots are these two beaches!

RLW · 05-14-2007, 04:38 AM

Just a suggestion. Why not go over to the boat ramp at Downings and let them swim from there?

LilacHill · 05-14-2007, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLW

Just a suggestion. Why not go over to the boat ramp at Downings and let them swim from there?

The 2 big German Shepherds that the owner seems to have that are there off lead a LOT is enough deterrant for me.

hazelnut · 05-14-2007, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilacHill

The 2 big German Shepherds that the owner seems to have that are there off lead a LOT is enough deterrant for me.

I am sure it wasn't your intention to do so but you just solidified the opposing viewpoint. If you are deterred from going to that boat ramp at downings due to dogs on the loose, how do you think non dog lovers feel about your dogs and anyone else's dog at a boat ramp?

Just a thought.

LilacHill · 05-14-2007, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

I am sure it wasn't your intention to do so but you just solidified the opposing viewpoint. If you are deterred from going to that boat ramp at downings due to dogs on the loose, how do you think non dog lovers feel about your dogs and anyone else's dog at a boat ramp?

Just a thought.

Downings is private property so his dogs can be off lead on his private propert if he so wishes. Alton has a leash law doesn't it? Dogs must bo on lead at all times unless in control of the owner such as voice or ecollar. Since the only one of my dogs ever off lead for maybe 10 minutes at a time and not within the past year actually, is Cuddles, I am obeying all leash laws.

Comparing Downings to the public boat ramp is apples and oranges.

LilacHill · 05-14-2007, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakewinniboater

I do live in Alton Bay and very often use the public ramp instead of ours, as it is easier to utilize.

First, I AM A DOG LOVER..... however, I do agree with part of the rebuttles here. The ramp is not a place for the dogs and HAS caused problems at TIMES. It really isn't a good spot for dogs, kids or anyone else to the use and play on.

I am sure there was a reason for the new rule... and as the town goes... they don't have to ask for input from guests or property owners.

I know this sounds harsh.... I don't mean it to.... just think of it from others point of view.

I am SURE that there are MANY public places that you can go alternately for your terrier's enjoyment. As the forum... they will surely give you LOTS of idea's on safe places!

So you actually have a choice, do you not? Your own boat launch or the public one? Nice to have that option, isn't it?

There are no other public places in Alton. The town can't even find property to fit into the town budget to put in a real beach area never mind these pocket parks for humans!

As I said before a permit to use the ramp is fine with me I'd pay it and wait like everyone else until all boats are in/out/gone. I do that anyway so no biggie wow.

hazelnut · 05-14-2007, 09:02 AM

Never mind the location. My only point was that you stated that you were afraid to go where the dogs were off lead, am I correct?

You said that you would not go there because you felt unsafe. Ok so if that is the case I was only mentioning that you might know what it feels like when non dog lovers approach a PUBLIC boat ramp loaded with dogs. I know that you always use your lead but what you fail to recognize is that they can't just open up the ramp for your dogs. If it is open to all dogs they must then count on all the owners to leash their dogs. Not gonna happen. So what is the safe more cost effective way for the town to avoid this problem. Prohibit dogs from the BOAT launch, pretty simple IMHO. I'm not saying that I don't sympathize with you, unfortunately there are others who have ruined it for you. Those who chose to allow their dogs to run free.

RLW · 05-14-2007, 11:10 AM

Why aren't you fighting as hard to use the public beach so the dogs don't hurt their paws. Karen, you know that there are many locations in and around Alton closer to your home that dogs are allowed to swim, but you have reasons/excuses for not letting your dogs use them. You were going to see people in the town and request using permits. If you went I'm assuming that they would not change the law as you are still going about using the boat ramp. I wish you luck, but I believe you will be going against the law and continue to use it or find another place. Again, Gook Luck in your endeavors.

Weirs guy · 05-14-2007, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Never mind the location. My only point was that you stated that you were afraid to go where the dogs were off lead, am I correct?

You said that you would not go there because you felt unsafe. Ok so if that is the case I was only mentioning that you might know what it feels like when non dog lovers approach a PUBLIC boat ramp loaded with dogs. I know that you always use your lead but what you fail to recognize is that they can't just open up the ramp for your dogs. If it is open to all dogs they must then count on all the owners to leash their dogs. Not gonna happen. So what is the safe more cost effective way for the town to avoid this problem. Prohibit dogs from the BOAT launch, pretty simple IMHO. I'm not saying that I don't sympathize with you, unfortunately there are others who have ruined it for you. Those who chose to allow their dogs to run free.

So if the local Constable won't enforce the already in place leash law who will enforce the no dogs law? This is kinda like the speed limit argument now!

LilacHill · 05-14-2007, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Never mind the location. My only point was that you stated that you were afraid to go where the dogs were off lead, am I correct?

You said that you would not go there because you felt unsafe. Ok so if that is the case I was only mentioning that you might know what it feels like when non dog lovers approach a PUBLIC boat ramp loaded with dogs. I know that you always use your lead but what you fail to recognize is that they can't just open up the ramp for your dogs. If it is open to all dogs they must then count on all the owners to leash their dogs. Not gonna happen. So what is the safe more cost effective way for the town to avoid this problem. Prohibit dogs from the BOAT launch, pretty simple IMHO. I'm not saying that I don't sympathize with you, unfortunately there are others who have ruined it for you. Those who chose to allow their dogs to run free.

Apples and oranges yet again. Downing's is private property? What part of that is so hard to grasp? As for the public boat launch I said the permit idea is a feasable one and it is.

LilacHill · 05-14-2007, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLW

Why aren't you fighting as hard to use the public beach so the dogs don't hurt their paws. Karen, you know that there are many locations in and around Alton closer to your home that dogs are allowed to swim, but you have reasons/excuses for not letting your dogs use them. You were going to see people in the town and request using permits. If you went I'm assuming that they would not change the law as you are still going about using the boat ramp. I wish you luck, but I believe you will be going against the law and continue to use it or find another place. Again, Gook Luck in your endeavors.

I didn't have time to go down last week as we were getting ready for an open house in new construction. What a pain.

As for me using the boat ramp, what makes you think my dogs have been down there at all? If somone's using it it sure isn't us and I resent the fact you keep implying it is. If they aren't pit bulls they aren't us! And since my dogs' pictures are plastered all over the web pages in my signature you can verify that fact. This isn't the first time you have implied that I went ahead and broke the rule (note it isn't a LAW) about no dogs even after I stated more than once I took the dogs home and they DID NOT use itand that's just plain wrong on your part.

As for not using the public beach, I never ever had a problem with no dogs in the swim area and I never said I did. I think someone's twisting things to make it seem more of a problem than just using a public ramp my non boaters taxes help pay for.

As for your suggestion that the unsafe areas down by the fire station are a hunky dory place to let them swim, you go in first then we'll see.

NightWing · 05-14-2007, 12:53 PM

I don't understand how a permit fee would do anything. Would it give you a license to let your dogs do whatever it is they do in the lake or on the ramp? Would it give you priority over all other uses of that "public" launch since you PAID for a privilege that others may not have? What would happen if every other dog owner/user of that ramp bought the same permit and all their dogs were licensed and privileged to use the ramp? Then the town is back to square one with dogs in the ramp area and the same problems that created the ban are still in place. Nope, I don't think a Puppy Playing/Pooping Permit is the answer. Accept the fact that the rules have changed and dogs are no longer allowed in the ramp area. JMHO

MJM · 05-14-2007, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knot Droolin'

Again, crating is NOT part of good dog ownership! It may be needed for certain dogs but not for most. Especially those who take well to training.

I disagree. In my opinion (both experiential and research/reading), almost all dogs could benefit from crate training. I'm not saying if you don't crate train, you won't have successful training....I am saying it's a GREAT way to go, for you and for the dog.

hazelnut · 05-14-2007, 01:24 PM

Here we go:

You said: "The 2 big German Shepherds that the owner seems to have that are there off lead a LOT is enough deterrant for me."

You are deterred from going somewhere due to the fact that there are dogs roaming free. You fear for your safety and that of your dog(s). Is this or is this not correct?

I said: "If you are deterred from going to that boat ramp at downings due to dogs on the loose, how do you think non dog lovers feel about your dogs and anyone else's dog at a boat ramp?"

Regardless of the location, public, private, the beach, spain, the moon, whatever you are afraid to go there. So now lets go back to the boat ramp. There are owners there with unleashed dogs including yourself: "..Since the only one of my dogs ever off lead for maybe 10 minutes at a time.."

I was merely asking you to look at this from the point of view of someone who does not like dogs. They my be deterred from going to the ramp because they are fearful of the unleashed dogs. You yourself said you wouldn't go somewhere because of 2 German Shepherds running around. You fail to see that people at a public boat ramp might look at your dog in the same light that you view the German Shepherd. I know that seems impossible because you think your dog is the most gentle wonderful docile creature in the world. I know as a dog owner we can become blind to anyone who feels otherwise.

As to comparing this to the speed limit debate?!?!?!?! We are talking about having to legislate against people using a BOAT RAMP for DOG SWIMMING. Not legislating how fast you can put your boat in or boat ramp etiquette or boat launching safety or boats tied to the ramp. I do/did sympathize but I'm starting to lean to the too bad so sad side. All suggestions and comments here seem to be met with a real sour attitude.

LilacHill · 05-14-2007, 01:43 PM

Regardless of the location, public, private, the beach, spain, the moon, whatever you are afraid to go there.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Uh NO. I am not afraid to go there at all. Do I think it would be a good idea? Absolutely NOT. Being that Downing's is PRIVATE PROPERTY if those dogs and mine got into something mine would be at fault because DOWNING'S IS PRIVATE PROPERTY. As I said comparing public property to private is apples to oranges. Besides isn't this the place where property owners come to vent about people treating their private property as public? And here you are telling someone to do just that.

As to my dog off leash, a down stay or a sit stay to take pictures is the same as patrolling a parking lot or being off lead in the water how? And FYI 9 times out of 10 when Cuddles was off lead for pics there was never anyone else around anyway at the beach, launch, or park.

LilacHill · 05-14-2007, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightWing

I don't understand how a permit fee would do anything. Would it give you a license to let your dogs do whatever it is they do in the lake or on the ramp? Would it give you priority over all other uses of that "public" launch since you PAID for a privilege that others may not have? What would happen if every other dog owner/user of that ramp bought the same permit and all their dogs were licensed and privileged to use the ramp? Then the town is back to square one with dogs in the ramp area and the same problems that created the ban are still in place. Nope, I don't think a Puppy Playing/Pooping Permit is the answer. Accept the fact that the rules have changed and dogs are no longer allowed in the ramp area. JMHO

Again do you live in Alton? If not then your taxes pay for a boat launch somewhere else. A permit and a log in such as a burnng permit would tell whoever is at the town office what dogs were there at what time of day etc. It would be enough deterrant for those not cleaning up after their dogs to be watched by those that do. Again I did not say for the dogs to be on the grassy beach area or near the swim area. The boat ramp is used by maybe a half dozen people at most. If it can't be worked around by dog owners and boaters alike (with the boats taking priority) what does that say about people in general? Not much apparently. I guess certain uses for public access far outweight others. Besides the fact that A LOT of the use the ramp gets isn't even from Alton folks. Ironic isn't it?

NightWing · 05-14-2007, 03:08 PM

So now, with your method, there will be administrative costs to the town to monitor the permits and answer the phone when you log in. What about weekends? Will the town have somebody on call for log in whenever your poochies want a dip or a photo op? Great. Oh, no problem. Your permit fee will cover the administrative costs! How much should the permit cost? $5.00? $10.00? $20.00? Here is an idea. If you have town dog registrations, suggest that every registration be increased in price to cover the administrative costs of your permit/log in theory. That way, every registered dog owner will help pay the freight for a few.

To answer your question, no, I do not live in Alton, although I have used that "dog" ramp to launch my boat in the past. Where I live, the ramps are maintained either by the power company or Fish and Game.

hazelnut · 05-14-2007, 08:37 PM

Wow Lilac this is way way more difficult than it has to be. Somebody else please jump in and help me out here because this is getting exhausting. I'll try again for the last time then I give up.

OK, seriously I had no intentions of getting into this debate. I for one LOVE dogs, love, love, love them. I have owned them, grew up around them, enjoyed them my whole life. I used to look at people who avoided my gorgeous, flawless, wonderful, Golden Retriever as freaks. I mean who the heck were THEY to treat my child, my buddy as a second class citizen. They were the ones with the problem, not me. Anyway, with that said, I would NEVER, EVER, EVER tell anyone at downings what to do on their own property, neither would you. That is not what I intended or implied you should do.

YOU SAID: I will paraphrase: You wouldn't go somewhere because of some dogs off lead.

I SAID: That is how some people feel about your dogs or anyone else's dogs that may be off lead somewhere.

I recommended that you should apply that logic to how folks might disagree with your stance that Public Boat Launches should be dog friendly assuming that folks would abuse the leash law. We can assume this because people do abuse this law as agreed to by almost everyone here.

I am done explaining this as people are probably bored with this. Good luck and I hope you find someplace to allow your pooch to swim freely.

SIKSUKR · 05-15-2007, 09:07 AM

Hazelnut,I've given up with this one.You can't discuss issues when someone already has their mind made up.The question was posed and if the poster didn't like the answer then you were ostrasized for not being a resident or if you used their own words to argue a point,YOU were not reading it right.I see 3 examples of the latter in this thread.Don't bother.While I have no problem with a controlled dog at a ramp,in my opinion this poster has actually hurt their own argument with their rebuttals.

RLW · 05-15-2007, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Hazelnut,I've given up with this one.You can't discuss issues when someone already has their mind made up.The question was posed and if the poster didn't like the answer then you were ostracized for not being a resident or if you used their own words to argue a point,YOU were not reading it right.I see 3 examples of the latter in this thread.Don't bother.While I have no problem with a controlled dog at a ramp,in my opinion this poster has actually hurt their own argument with their rebuttals.

Very well said. I couldn't have said it better.

Weirs guy · 05-15-2007, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

As to comparing this to the speed limit debate?!?!?!?! We are talking about having to legislate against people using a BOAT RAMP for DOG SWIMMING. Not legislating how fast you can put your boat in or boat ramp etiquette or boat launching safety or boats tied to the ramp.

I was more leaning towards the comparison that it seems we've added a new rule/law (speed limit on lake, no dogs on boat ramp) to compensate for an existing unenforced rule/law (150' safe passage, dogs on leash). I hate when a new requirement is added for the sake of compensating for an unenforced existing one. The way I see it, if you show up at the ramp and someones dogs off lead, ask them to put it on. If they don't, call the cops. If the cops don't come, run the dog over (since the cops not coming anyway

).

But it also seems I'm in the minority here so I raise the white flag!

NightWing · 05-15-2007, 11:56 AM

Dogs on leashes soil the land and water the same way as dogs on the loose.

A dog on a leash is just as much in violation as a loose dog if it is in the restricted area. The sign says "No Dogs," not "No Loose Dogs," so telling someone on the ramp to leash up their dog isn't solving the problem.

This whole thread is about perceived entitlements, in that a taxpayer has a right to use any public property in any way they choose. Could the skateboarders drag a half pipe to the ramp because they have no place to go and their parents are taxpayers? Could tax paying artisans set up easels on the ramp because they have no place to paint? Could some taxpaying campers set up a tent and campfire next to the ramp because they want to be near the water and they don't want to pay camping fees? Of course not because it is a public BOAT RAMP, not for mixed use at the whim of any taxpayer who has individual wants and needs. It all comes down to common sense.

Weirs guy · 05-15-2007, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightWing

It all comes down to common sense.

OK, I'll put the flag away for that one. The issue is that dogs used to be allowed, and now they aren't. We're all speculating as to why, as no one has gone and checked. My comment about the dogs on leash, had you bothered to read the hole thread, was in response to those speculating the rule was based on loose dogs. My comments about doggie doo doo in the water were in response to speculation that was the cause. I don't remember ever saying it was ok for your dog on a leash to go potty in the lake. Or even that it was ok for the doggie to poo in the lake in the first place.

I'd venture a guess that if something you enjoyed doing, and had been able to do until now, was suddenly taken away from you, you might feel the same way. Perceived entitlements are a wonderful thing, when they're yours and not someone else's.

Try an ounce of common sense yourself.

Flags back up.

NightWing · 05-15-2007, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

OK, I'll put the flag away for that one. The issue is that dogs used to be allowed, and now they aren't. We're all speculating as to why, as no one has gone and checked. My comment about the dogs on leash, had you bothered to read the hole thread, was in response to those speculating the rule was based on loose dogs. My comments about doggie doo doo in the water were in response to speculation that was the cause. I don't remember ever saying it was ok for your dog on a leash to go potty in the lake. Or even that it was ok for the doggie to poo in the lake in the first place.

I'd venture a guess that if something you enjoyed doing, and had been able to do until now, was suddenly taken away from you, you might feel the same way. Perceived entitlements are a wonderful thing, when they're yours and not someone else's.

Try an ounce of common sense yourself.

Flags back up.

Sir, I am sorry if you felt my comments were directed at you. If they were, I would have quoted your post, as I have done here in this post.

I have read the whole thread several times. The original poster said that her dogs were leashed almost all the time and the issue of leashed/not leashed had been spoken about by others. My comments about same were generic. At no time did I accuse you or anyone else of allowing their dog to defecate in the lake.

I agree that apparently nobody has sought an explanation from the town office, but I would venture that the response would be short and not subject to conditions or rebuttal.

Finally, I have had many things taken away/changed/realigned in my life and I have accepted those I could not change and learned to live with them. That was then, this is now.

As a final thought, I am not sure if you are agreeing with my statement about perceived entitlements. I believe that is what started this entire thread.

OK, my common sense just kicked in.

Weirs guy · 05-15-2007, 01:00 PM

Thanks Nightwing, I can't even remember what my point was again.

I feel LilacHill's pain as some day I too may have only the local boat ramp to let my dog swim at, and I'd hate to loose it.

Bear Islander · 05-15-2007, 01:18 PM

Somehow the poop discussion changed to "do dogs poop in the lake?". However if the dog poops near the lake it will end up in the lake unless someone picks it up. In the picture several posts back a dog is sitting on a grassy area behind a retaining wall. Any poop in that grassy area will be in the lake next time it rains.

nj2nh · 05-16-2007, 05:48 PM

I was going to append this to the thread that currently exists about dogs at the boat ramp, but I thought it would get lost amongst all those messages.

It turns out that the original posting was totally incorrect. Dogs are indeed allowed at the boat ramp. I e-mailled the Parks and Recreation Dept. (which the original poster should have done before starting the bruhaha) and got the following response:

Thank you for your interest in the Town of Alton park areas. We recognize
the importance of including our pets in our parks and are providing the
following references for your information.

TOWN OF ALTON ORDINANCES AND REGULATIONS, March 1995
“3.3 Animals- Animals are prohibited from being in the water within any
authorized swim area or being on swim docks. All persons shall be
responsible to clean-up after their dogs and remove any waste substance from
Town-Owned property.”

TOWN BEACHES-DOG REGULATIONS
“The Town of Alton has instituted a regulation restricting dogs from the
town beaches and swim areas. This would include the sandy beach area and
swimming zone located along 28A; the swim dock grassy area from the boat
ramp to the community center and the actual swimming area.”

Dogs are welcome in Alton Bay across from the public restrooms, parallel to
the lake until the public boat ramp. Dogs are able to access the lake at
the public boat ramp. Dogs are also welcome at Jones Field Park and Liberty
Tree Park.

To answer your question:
A sign is not posted to prohibit dogs from swimming at the boat ramp. The
sign indicates dogs are not allowed in the swim area, defined by buoys, and
on the grass from the boat ramp to the Community Center. The boat ramp is
outside the swim area buoys and dogs are permitted to use it. :0)
Please let me know if you have other questions I'd be happy to help answer
them.
Kellie Troendle, Parks and Recreation Director

So, it was all for nothing. Funny that someone from New Jersey figured out a way to find the answer to this question.

Jersey Girl

Winnipesaukee Divers · 05-16-2007, 06:16 PM

It was not all for nothing… How many times did you see the link to "The Lilac Pit Bull Boutique"? This was just another form of free advertising. Had I been the webmaster, I would have put a halt to it immediately and sent her a nasty gram explaining the rules of the forum. But I’m not and it made for good entrainment to watch so many get so worked up over nothing but an advertising scam.

But then again, I’m prodigious… I think Pit bulls taste bad… You need a good mutt for the best tasting tacos…

Alton Mumma · 05-16-2007, 06:29 PM

I am planning on popping into parks 'n rec tomorrow to pick up some summer brochures and was going to ask Kellie or Elizabeth about this issue while I was there. Now I don't have to

Cool! I'll have to take my Stewie down for a swim some time. He LOVES the water. And yes, I'll pick up the poo and follow the leash law

RLW · 05-16-2007, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee Divers

It was not all for nothing… How many times did you see the link to "The Lilac Pit Bull Boutique"? This was just another form of free advertising. Had I been the webmaster, I would have put a halt to it immediately and sent her a nasty gram explaining the rules of the forum. But I’m not and it made for good entrainment to watch so many get so worked up over nothing but an advertising scam.

But then again, I’m prodigious… I think Pit bulls taste bad… You need a good mutt for the best tasting tacos…

I believe she did more harm for her business than good. That was one of the first things I noticed and said that she was really hurting herself doing what she was doing.
Thanks Jersey girl for you taking the time to do what the original poster said she was going to do at some point of time, but didn't or did not list what she found out.

hazelnut · 05-16-2007, 09:24 PM

RLW, I felt the same way. So much so that I deliberately clicked on the link to ensure that I knew what business I wouldn't be patronizing. If this was a marketing ploy I think it backfired.

Skipper of the Sea Que · 05-16-2007, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilacHill

We went to the boat launch with the dogs today in Alton and they changed the signage to read NO DOGS. {snip}...

In my town they get very specific. They do not allow ANY animal that is smoking alcoholic beverages. Not that all the animals can read those signs

.

Animals can not do any flaming shooters. No 151 Rum on fire to be imbibed by critters here.

Remember Rum Soaked Crooks Cigars? Animals can't smoke those alcoholic beverage soaked things here

Nice to see (read) that your dogs can use the Alton boat ramp after all.

SIKSUKR · 05-17-2007, 07:00 AM

So What About It Lilac Hill? Have You Disappeared?

ApS · 05-17-2007, 07:27 AM

Maybe feeling muzzled?

Weirs guy · 05-17-2007, 11:23 AM

I feel so used.

NightWing · 05-17-2007, 11:33 AM

After Jersey Girl's enlightening post #81, the argument and rant is a moot point.

Rose · 05-17-2007, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee Divers

How many times did you see the link to "The Lilac Pit Bull Boutique"?

Before I make an appointment with the eye doctor, where exactly are these links? Were they removed before I saw the relevent post(s)?

onthebay · 05-17-2007, 02:00 PM

Wow, and I bet LilacHill was behind the grassy knoll in Dallas, knows where Hoffa is buried and is behind the rising oil prices.
I love this forum but sometimes the piling on that goes on when someone is on the losing end of a discussion isn't pretty.
I never knew she even ran a business or was trying to advertise. You would have had to look up her profile to get that info.
The only thing she was guilty of was being mistaken.

NightWing · 05-17-2007, 02:32 PM

No, I saw the links too. Perhaps the webmaster edited them out because advertising is not permitted.

Gavia immer · 05-17-2007, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Somehow the poop discussion changed to "do dogs poop in the lake?". However if the dog poops near the lake it will end up in the lake unless someone picks it up. In the picture several posts back a dog is sitting on a grassy area behind a retaining wall. Any poop in that grassy area will be in the lake next time it rains.

Squirrel poop, duck poop, fish poop, hen poop, moose poop, fox poop, cow poop, bear poop, deer poop, and poop-equivalent McLawn McFertilizer. Even LLAMA poop....from farms uphill.

EVERYTHING pooped ends up in the lake, but the lake can deal with most of the natural variety poop, as it has for centuries.

Geesh....let a dog take a swim, especially if its hot lakeside.

hazelnut · 05-17-2007, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onthebay

Wow, and I bet LilacHill was behind the grassy knoll in Dallas, knows where Hoffa is buried and is behind the rising oil prices.
I love this forum but sometimes the piling on that goes on when someone is on the losing end of a discussion isn't pretty.
I never knew she even ran a business or was trying to advertise. You would have had to look up her profile to get that info.
The only thing she was guilty of was being mistaken.

Onthebay I will forgive you because you may have just tuned to this discussion and you do not have the correct information.
Originally Lilachill had a link in their signature that was removed from the thread. It was extremely blatant and all you had to do was click on it and you were directed to a commercial website.
Also, losing end????? There was no losing end, there were differences of opinion but nobody won or lost here. People expressed an opinion based on false facts the only loser in my opinion is Lilachill who started a discussion with false information. Everything else is moot.

Bear Islander · 05-18-2007, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavia immer

... EVERYTHING pooped ends up in the lake, but the lake can deal with most of the natural variety poop, as it has for centuries...

NO, IT CAN'T!

This is the attitude that causes pollution. Centuries ago 1 in 3 children died before puberty, mostly of illness. A large percentage of these deaths were caused by coliform and parasites in their drinking water. As a society we spend billions every year to keep excrement out of our drinking water.

But then some idiot lets junior in the lake with a diaper full, or decides the lake will take care of what Fido left behind.

Forget about the big chemical companies, the polluters are in your mirror. One of the things about Winnipesaukee that is not beautiful is its bacteria count.

LilacHill · 05-18-2007, 02:59 PM

OK having been gone most of the week with a dog having surgery I come back to a LOT of misinformation on this thread.

FYI Hazelnut that link was part of a cut and pasted forum signature from elsewhere and had been the SAME since 2004. You're just now getting around to picking at something else because the arguments you all were using about private property versus public held no water?

Jersey Girl thank you for emailing P&R. I was off the computer until today and not around so I couldn't go down to the town hall nor email anyone.

As to the "website selling things". Give me a break. How many people here would buy things with pictures of MY dogs on them in a shop set up for me and my kids to get things from? Not many I'd warrant. So the comments of doing my business no good, I have to ask, WHAT business? There is no business. Again that link had been there since 2004 here it is 2007 and you needed something else to gripe at.

As to the pit bull comments, very funny. Likree I haven't heard it all before. Or were you one of the people spitting on my dog from their car as we took a walk on Avery Hill the other day? If so, thatnks a bunch. You're more of a threat than they are apparently.

I used to send people here a lot to keep up with what's going on in town and around the lake. I'm not doing that again. Hope you have a wonderful time being nasty to the next person.

GWC... · 05-18-2007, 04:34 PM

The post that started this thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilacHill

We went to the boat launch with the dogs today in Alton and they changed the signage to read NO DOGS. Why? Where are we supposed to go with them? No where in town apparently. What was the reason behind this? Does anyone know and what can we do to get this changed? My taxes are going to help pay for this stuff and the only thing we use recreationally is the boat ramp for the dogs.

Another post by the thread's originator:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilacHill

Do you live in Alton? If not I don't think you have any room to talk.

The post that expressed the Town's position:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jersey Girl

I was going to append this to the thread that currently exists about dogs at the boat ramp, but I thought it would get lost amongst all those messages.

It turns out that the original posting was totally incorrect. Dogs are indeed allowed at the boat ramp. I e-mailled the Parks and Recreation Dept. (which the original poster should have done before starting the bruhaha) and got the following response:

Thank you for your interest in the Town of Alton park areas. We recognize
the importance of including our pets in our parks and are providing the
following references for your information.

TOWN OF ALTON ORDINANCES AND REGULATIONS, March 1995
“3.3 Animals- Animals are prohibited from being in the water within any
authorized swim area or being on swim docks. All persons shall be
responsible to clean-up after their dogs and remove any waste substance from
Town-Owned property.”

TOWN BEACHES-DOG REGULATIONS
“The Town of Alton has instituted a regulation restricting dogs from the
town beaches and swim areas. This would include the sandy beach area and
swimming zone located along 28A; the swim dock grassy area from the boat
ramp to the community center and the actual swimming area.”

Dogs are welcome in Alton Bay across from the public restrooms, parallel to
the lake until the public boat ramp. Dogs are able to access the lake at
the public boat ramp. Dogs are also welcome at Jones Field Park and Liberty
Tree Park.

To answer your question:
A sign is not posted to prohibit dogs from swimming at the boat ramp. The
sign indicates dogs are not allowed in the swim area, defined by buoys, and
on the grass from the boat ramp to the Community Center. The boat ramp is
outside the swim area buoys and dogs are permitted to use it. :0)
Please let me know if you have other questions I'd be happy to help answer
them.
Kellie Troendle, Parks and Recreation Director

So, it was all for nothing. Funny that someone from New Jersey figured out a way to find the answer to this question.

Jersey Girl

The thread origin poster's response post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilacHill

OK having been gone most of the week with a dog having surgery I come back to a LOT of misinformation on this thread.

Jersey Girl thank you for emailing P&R. I was off the computer until today and not around so I couldn't go down to the town hall nor email anyone.

I used to send people here a lot to keep up with what's going on in town and around the lake. I'm not doing that again. Hope you have a wonderful time being nasty to the next person.

This has been an entertaining thread, if nothing else.

Interestingly, someone from NJ contacted the Town to get the real story on the dogs and the boat ramp issue.

One would have thought that the local person that originated the thread would have done this before raising the issue on the Forum.

Then, again, think of all the time, effort, and energy that the thread instilled...

hazelnut · 05-18-2007, 07:15 PM

Well this is a discussion I regret getting into. Originally my post was a positive suggestion that met with no response. Me second post was an observation that you had made a comment that seemed to go against your point. Nothing nasty or derogatory. I encourage you and anyone else to reread the entire thread. As soon as I pointed that out you proceeded to demean my argument. No problem I tried in vain to explain the point to you and it fell on deaf ears.

I will say my last comment was not really directed towards you but at ONTHEBAY who stuck their nose in on the tail end of a discussion with misinformation. I will take the high road and apologize to you Lilachill I am very sorry if I have offended you. My intention was originally to try and offer a differing viewpoint and possible suggestions to a problem that we now know does not exist. I am sure you are a very nice person and had no intention of causing and disruption. One inherent problem with public discussion forums/email/online communication is the lack of inflection present in conversation. Often times we read things with a different "voice" in our heads which can lead to misinterpretation and misunderstandings. When I made a comment regarding your comment about the dogs off lead at downings I meant no disrespect to you I was merely trying to illustrate a point that some feel threatened by unleashed dogs or even leashed dogs in public places. Anyway, things seemed to escalate from there and conspiracy theories arose, others got involved etc. etc. Well it became a mess.

The funny thing here is I am PRO-DOG. Love dogs would probably gush over your dogs and love to play, pat, throw the ball for them. I hope that you change your mind about directing others to this site. There is a lot of great information to be had here. I believe the Webmaster here does an excellent job with the site. Please continue to post and read the forum and do not let one little debate ruin it for you. Once again I am sorry if for any comments that you felt offended by. I truly hope that your dogs find the perfect swimming hole and it looks like from the info posted here that the public boat launch is fair game!

onthebay · 05-18-2007, 09:07 PM

Hazelnut although I was not a participant in the thread I had been reading the posts throughout as I do most of the forum discussions. Although I did not weigh in on the topic of whether dogs should swim at the the ramp. (I haven't had a dog in years and do not use the Alton ramp) I did weigh in on the assertion put forth by some participants that LilacHill had started the thread with the express purpose of advertising her business.
I didn't direct my comments to anyone in particular

but as they say 'me thinks you doth protest too much"

05-07-2007, 03:03 PM	#1
LilacHill Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Alton Bay Posts: 45 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	No Dogs at Boat Launch We went to the boat launch with the dogs today in Alton and they changed the signage to read NO DOGS. Why? Where are we supposed to go with them? No where in town apparently. What was the reason behind this? Does anyone know and what can we do to get this changed? My taxes are going to help pay for this stuff and the only thing we use recreationally is the boat ramp for the dogs. __________________ Karen, Cuddles, and Dilly the Understudy with Rowdy the Ruckus Raiser

05-07-2007, 05:24 PM	#4
Knot Droolin' Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Crating Nightwing, Way off the subject but, I disagree that crating a dog is anyway to show you are a great dog lover or trainer. I do agree you have the right to do so, but I do not think it is in any way a good argument for being a good dog owner.

05-07-2007, 06:48 PM	#6
nj2nh Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 529 Thanks: 80 Thanked 47 Times in 27 Posts	Whoa, people! Just have to jump in here as I am wont to do. First, as for crates. My dog loves hers. When the door is open, she stays there - sometimes for hours. I was opposed to crates and didn't use one for my first dog, but we did for our current pooch. She feels secure and safe in it. When we leave and don't put her in her crate, she often climbs in anyway. If the door is closed and she can get in, she crawls under the kitchen table as it simulates the crate. So, please, do not use the use of a crate as a reason to attack someone about their dogs. Secondly, as for the boat launch, there must be some valid reason. However, I do agree with the second person who posted that it is a boat launch, not a dog area. Having said that, I can't complain as we have our own beach. My dog, ironically, hates it! Our first one loved the water, but not this one. So, please, why don't you just give the town hall a call and find out. I would bet my last buck that someone complained and up went the sign. That is how these things work everywhere! Just my two (or maybe three) cents, Jersey Girl P.S. After that Nor'easter, my dog could have gone swimming in my backyard! Ick. __________________

05-07-2007, 06:53 PM	#7
Alton Mumma Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Alton NH Posts: 41 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I haven't been in Alton all that long, but I do remember when you could take the dogs to the boat ramp. I think it changed some time last summer. Bummer too, it was a great activity for the dogs and their owners, it gave them access to the lake but away from public swim areas. Not sure why it's changed, perhaps pmj is right and it was because of irresponsible pet owners not doing their "doo-ty." We just keep our wiener dog home now and he plays in the kiddie pool, but he's little (only 10 lbs) so he can get his splash on in pretty well at home, for bigger dogs it's not quite as fun. Not sure why all the hub-bub over different training techniques. Guess I'm a bad dog owner too, since my Stewie has a crate. He loves it in there, it's his little "safe zone" he's got his fluffy little bed in there and it's a nice snug den-like environment. __________________ Alton Mumma "Living with a toddler is like using a blender without the cover."

05-07-2007, 07:38 PM	#9
Pineedles Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Moultonborough & CT Posts: 2,545 Thanks: 1,072 Thanked 668 Times in 367 Posts	Bananas I got a pet peeve! GET RID OF THE DANCING BANANAS! It's driving me crazy!!! Dog on ramps, in crates, playing crazy eights are fine. Just get rid of these dancing bananas and I'll be glad to donate.

05-07-2007, 04:10 PM	#2
pmj Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 240 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Just a guess here..but believe it or not there are some people who don't clean up after their dogs do their "doo-dy". I am thinking it is for the pleasantry of walking through the beautiful park-like surroundings without finding an unpleasant surprise on your shoes. Just a hunch, though. Perhaps the people at the town hall can verify the reason.

05-07-2007, 07:19 PM	#8
NightWing Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 410 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts	I was not in favor of crating my puppy either, but it was explained to me that it is a natural tendency for canines to seek some sort of den. My particular dog, an Italian greyhound can never be left unattended and loose, no matter what the situation. He is a gaze hound and will chase after anything that moves if it suits his fancy. His ability to dart into traffic while chasing a leaf or a butterfly is just too great a risk to take. As a condition of purchase, I had to sign an agreement to keep the dog under my control at all times and never to let him run free. Of course, a fenced yard might be an exception but it would have to be a tall fence because this breed is like an antelope and can jump extremely high. My dog loves his crate because he can feel comfort and safety. When he is tired, he will go to the crate.

05-07-2007, 07:51 PM	#10
Knot Droolin' Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Agreed Nightwing, As you say, in your case a crate it is required to keep you dog safe. As I stated: "I do agree you have the right to do so, but I do not think it is in any way a good argument for being a good dog owner." I agree many people crate, but because it is a sensitive subject, I did not think it was a good argument given the context in which it was given. Meaning crating is not a prerequisite of good ownership. I completely agree with you on leashes! Here is a thought for all the dog owners out there: I pick up ALL dog potty I come across. I figure there are probably only about 10% of the dog owners out there that are not responsible. If the rest of us responsible owners chip in, we (us and our dogs) won't be kicked out of every place we enjoy going. This is extra work, but you will never get irrespnsible people to be responsible so we all need to help bag that potty!

05-07-2007, 07:57 PM	#11
abay Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	One thing that hasn't been mentioned here - the Alton boat ramp is adjacent to a public swimming area. There are usually a lot of people there, and as has already been mentioned, I'm afraid it is the few irresponsible dog owners who have ruined it for the rest.

05-07-2007, 08:12 PM	#12
Aquadeziac Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Concord NH Posts: 239 Thanks: 19 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Judging by what I see at the Gilford boat launch, it comes down to the few can ruin it for the many. I can't count the number of times I have tried to launch or retrieve and someone and their dog are occupying the ramp as a doggie playground playing fetch in the water and I have actually had to get out and ask them to get their dog out of the water so I can use the ramp. Its these inconsiderate rubes that ruin it for the responsible owner that merely wants a quick splash for the dog and a little walk. If you let the good people do it you have to let the rubes also. And, unfortunately, the only way to stop the rubes is to stop everyone. Life is not fair, but we must all deal with it. __________________ "He who dies with the most toys wins"

05-08-2007, 07:33 AM	#14
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	I think the real issue here is dog poop in the lake. Most beaches do not allow dogs. When a dog poops near a lake where do you think it ends up? What happens the next time it rains? The bacteria content of the lake is a serious issue. Many older lake homes are spending up to $50K to upgrade septic systems. The lake is my drinking water supply. If the State Legislature wants to protect the lakes they should worry less about pine needles and make a law that requires scooping within x number of feet of the lake.

05-08-2007, 08:04 AM	#16
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	I think someone needs an attitude adjustment.Boat ramps are for BOATS.Not for DOGS.As Aqua stated,I've had issues with some dogs in the way at the Gilford ramp.It's not the dogs fault but the careless owner.I've also stepped in dog crap twice there. Why is that hard to understand?Actually,on the other side of the fence,I see the same guy at the ramp with his old dog quite often and he is very aware of ramp users and immediately has his dog move out of the way.Not a really big deal.I have more of a problem with kids playing on the ramp in the water with mom saying nothing with she sits right next to the "no swimming at ramp" sign.Oh well! __________________ SIKSUKR

05-08-2007, 08:47 AM	#18
ApS Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Florida (Sebring & Keys), Wolfeboro Posts: 5,938 Thanks: 2,205 Thanked 776 Times in 553 Posts	Earlier, Alton should have put up signs like Vancouver, BC, has: Attached Images __________________ Is it "Common Sense" isn't.

05-08-2007, 09:53 AM	#19
RLW Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Alton Bay on the mountain by a lake Posts: 2,023 Thanks: 563 Thanked 444 Times in 311 Posts	I believee there is another good reason for not letting them swim at the Alton ramp is that they are about 20 feet from the public swimming area. One could go and let their dogs swim in the nice pond just across the street from the fire station and then they would not be by swimming areas or boat ramps and it is a great place to sit and eat ones lunch while watching their dog (s). Problem solved. Now that wasn't hard was it??? __________________ There is nothing better than living on Alton Mountain & our grand kids visits.

05-08-2007, 10:26 AM	#21
tricia1218 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: MA/Paugus Bay Posts: 155 Thanks: 31 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	As a dog owner I agree, if dogs are not allowed they are not allowed. People claim their dogs are well behaved, and they are not. My dog doesn't bark, meanwhile the dog is barking, I clean up after my pet, you pick up everything? hmm. It is like dog owners (myself included) are sometimes so oblivious to their pets behavior. And of course my dog is not included in this grouping he is a perfect angel ;-)

05-08-2007, 12:05 PM	#27
Weirs guy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Weirs Beach, NH Posts: 1,067 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	So let me get this right, a dog doing his business at the boat ramp near the public beach is worse then your boat leaking god-knows-what at the same spot? Of course I'm sure each of you responsible boat owners make sure you don't have any leaks, but it only takes a few to ruin it for everyone. Maybe we should ban the boat launch all together? I see no reason why dogs can't use the boat ramp along with the boats. If we're going to outlaw all of the little things that inconvenience us because a few inconsiderate individuals ruin it then there goes driving, boating, vacations, eating out, watching tv, vacations at the lake, tourism.... __________________ Is it bikeweek yet? Now?

05-08-2007, 02:17 PM	#28
WINDinmySOCKIES Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Hills Pond, Alton NH , Horsham, PA Posts: 40 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Holy Cow!! As I read all of this, I can only think ....... The dogs are much smarter than us humans because they can't talk, and unlike us, are easily trained.

05-08-2007, 04:41 PM	#30
mcdude Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Rock Haven Lake - West Newfield, ME Posts: 5,367 Thanks: 374 Thanked 1,057 Times in 495 Posts	Karen: I am curious as well. I would direct my question to the Alton Parks and Recreation Dept by e-mailing them at parksrec@alton.nh.gov If you hear from them, be sure to let us know what they had to say. Will dogs also be banned from the newly refurbished town beach? When my "Hooch" and "Lady" were still alive, they would love to take a ride in the Jeep and take a dip at the boat ramp at either Manning Lake or Crystal Lake...right in your neck of the woods. Also the beach at the Boy Scout Camp at Lake Eileen is usually vacant most of the year and is a publicly accessible property. Usually, no one is around and you can let the doggies off the leash to romp around! McD

05-08-2007, 10:01 PM	#33
Argie's Wife Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Alton Posts: 1,908 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 533 Thanked 579 Times in 260 Posts	Alton received money from the state that had certain strings or standards or whatever you wish to call them, attached to them. One of them was the "no dogs" issue. I believe it was mainly for health reasons. This issue was addressed at the deliberative session, earlier this year. One town member was concerned that it provided an "unwelcomed" feel to the area, however there were some town members who worked very hard on this project to make sure it was completed. It's still a huge improvement on the way that beach was before all the hard work was done... I know Pete Bolster was a main player in that. He's now a selectman and could probably address your concerns much better than I can here. (I was just at all the meetings...) Nonetheless, I would think the sign would more pertain to people hanging out there with Fido more than it would to those who were simply "passing thru" to launch a boat that Fido was going to also ride in.... Wouldn't you think? :-)

05-09-2007, 06:57 AM	#36
Rose Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 498 Thanks: 62 Thanked 71 Times in 32 Posts	Missed point??? I think the point that Knot Droolin' is trying to make is that Chipj29's post seems to imply (though this is may not be their intent) that if one doesn't crate, they're not a good owner. The link you posted, Nightwing, is an excellent reference for when and when not to crate.

05-09-2007, 10:53 AM	#39
Cal Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Pitman , NJ Posts: 627 Thanks: 40 Thanked 21 Times in 12 Posts	This could turn into another speed limit type debate . I have cats , who stay in the house , use a litter box and believe water is only for drinking. I'm exempt from this one , so far. Funny how every new "Law" removes somebodies "Rights"

05-09-2007, 11:21 AM	#41
Weirs guy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Weirs Beach, NH Posts: 1,067 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I see your points Bear Islander, but I still say that an occasional doggie present is no worse than: 1. the rainbow covered slick on the water I have to swim through behind my neighbors boats. 2. mcmansion mclawn mcfertilizers. 3. whatever the bears, deers and other critters are doing in the lake and on the shore. 4. whatever the birds hanging out by the pier do in the water. __________________ Is it bikeweek yet? Now?

05-09-2007, 01:03 PM	#43
Argie's Wife Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Alton Posts: 1,908 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 533 Thanked 579 Times in 260 Posts	...not just that, but why would you and the family WANT to frequent a beach that's full of doggie landmines? If dog owners were more responsible to pick up after Fido when he goes, then this wouldn't be an issue...

05-09-2007, 01:30 PM	#45
hazelnut Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,348 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 508 Thanked 462 Times in 162 Posts	Interesting Debate Let me start by saying I love dogs, I've had dogs. However, there are many people out there who do not share our love of dogs. There are also many people who have a phobia concerning dogs. At a public beach/boat launch those people should not be subjected to dogs. I'm sure there are dog parks and plenty of places where dogs are welcome. Looking at it from the perspective of health and safety it is not a good idea for dogs to be in that area. Besides It is only a matter of time before somebody sues somebody or the town for a dog bite or an owner suing when his fido is killed by a boater. I think the solution would be a Designated Dog Swim Area. Not to lobby against opening a Boat Launch to dog swimming.

05-10-2007, 02:52 PM	#48
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	I don't think dogs are the reason for beaches being closed. Mostly because dogs are not allowed on beaches. Dogs, failed septic systems and dirty beach diapers are all sources of coliform bacteria. Add what nature supplies from birds and other animals and you have unsafe water for drinking or swimming.

05-11-2007, 03:57 PM	#49
Lakewinniboater Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Westford, MA and Alton Bay, NH Posts: 225 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	boat ramp Do you live in Alton? If not I don't think you have any room to talk. As for the leashing and crating comments, what ever gave you the impression my dogs are ever off lead in public? Here's a news flash THEY AREN'T. As for the boat ramps they aren't busy at the time we go with the dogs which is the point. An as a matter of fact today there wasn't anyone even attempting to use the ramp which is the case most days we go. A kiddie pool and sprinkler do not allow for water retrival training do they?[/QUOTE] I do live in Alton Bay and very often use the public ramp instead of ours, as it is easier to utilize. First, I AM A DOG LOVER..... however, I do agree with part of the rebuttles here. The ramp is not a place for the dogs and HAS caused problems at TIMES. It really isn't a good spot for dogs, kids or anyone else to the use and play on. I am sure there was a reason for the new rule... and as the town goes... they don't have to ask for input from guests or property owners. I know this sounds harsh.... I don't mean it to.... just think of it from others point of view. I am SURE that there are MANY public places that you can go alternately for your terrier's enjoyment. As the forum... they will surely give you LOTS of idea's on safe places! __________________ Wendy "Wasn't Me!"

05-12-2007, 06:21 AM	#52
kunamola Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Northern Virginia and Melvin Village, NH Posts: 44 Thanks: 3 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	swimming on a leash? If a dog is swimming at a public spot and you claim he is never in public without being on a lead, does that mean he/she swims with the leash on?

05-14-2007, 04:38 AM	#56
RLW Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Alton Bay on the mountain by a lake Posts: 2,023 Thanks: 563 Thanked 444 Times in 311 Posts	Suggestion Just a suggestion. Why not go over to the boat ramp at Downings and let them swim from there? __________________ There is nothing better than living on Alton Mountain & our grand kids visits.

05-14-2007, 09:02 AM	#61
hazelnut Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,348 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 508 Thanked 462 Times in 162 Posts	Not my point Never mind the location. My only point was that you stated that you were afraid to go where the dogs were off lead, am I correct? You said that you would not go there because you felt unsafe. Ok so if that is the case I was only mentioning that you might know what it feels like when non dog lovers approach a PUBLIC boat ramp loaded with dogs. I know that you always use your lead but what you fail to recognize is that they can't just open up the ramp for your dogs. If it is open to all dogs they must then count on all the owners to leash their dogs. Not gonna happen. So what is the safe more cost effective way for the town to avoid this problem. Prohibit dogs from the BOAT launch, pretty simple IMHO. I'm not saying that I don't sympathize with you, unfortunately there are others who have ruined it for you. Those who chose to allow their dogs to run free.

05-14-2007, 11:10 AM	#62
RLW Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Alton Bay on the mountain by a lake Posts: 2,023 Thanks: 563 Thanked 444 Times in 311 Posts	Dogs and Water. Why aren't you fighting as hard to use the public beach so the dogs don't hurt their paws. Karen, you know that there are many locations in and around Alton closer to your home that dogs are allowed to swim, but you have reasons/excuses for not letting your dogs use them. You were going to see people in the town and request using permits. If you went I'm assuming that they would not change the law as you are still going about using the boat ramp. I wish you luck, but I believe you will be going against the law and continue to use it or find another place. Again, Gook Luck in your endeavors. __________________ There is nothing better than living on Alton Mountain & our grand kids visits.

05-14-2007, 12:53 PM	#66
NightWing Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 410 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts	I don't understand how a permit fee would do anything. Would it give you a license to let your dogs do whatever it is they do in the lake or on the ramp? Would it give you priority over all other uses of that "public" launch since you PAID for a privilege that others may not have? What would happen if every other dog owner/user of that ramp bought the same permit and all their dogs were licensed and privileged to use the ramp? Then the town is back to square one with dogs in the ramp area and the same problems that created the ban are still in place. Nope, I don't think a Puppy Playing/Pooping Permit is the answer. Accept the fact that the rules have changed and dogs are no longer allowed in the ramp area. JMHO

05-14-2007, 01:24 PM	#68
hazelnut Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,348 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 508 Thanked 462 Times in 162 Posts	Point still missed Here we go: You said: "The 2 big German Shepherds that the owner seems to have that are there off lead a LOT is enough deterrant for me." You are deterred from going somewhere due to the fact that there are dogs roaming free. You fear for your safety and that of your dog(s). Is this or is this not correct? I said: "If you are deterred from going to that boat ramp at downings due to dogs on the loose, how do you think non dog lovers feel about your dogs and anyone else's dog at a boat ramp?" Regardless of the location, public, private, the beach, spain, the moon, whatever you are afraid to go there. So now lets go back to the boat ramp. There are owners there with unleashed dogs including yourself: "..Since the only one of my dogs ever off lead for maybe 10 minutes at a time.." I was merely asking you to look at this from the point of view of someone who does not like dogs. They my be deterred from going to the ramp because they are fearful of the unleashed dogs. You yourself said you wouldn't go somewhere because of 2 German Shepherds running around. You fail to see that people at a public boat ramp might look at your dog in the same light that you view the German Shepherd. I know that seems impossible because you think your dog is the most gentle wonderful docile creature in the world. I know as a dog owner we can become blind to anyone who feels otherwise. As to comparing this to the speed limit debate?!?!?!?! We are talking about having to legislate against people using a BOAT RAMP for DOG SWIMMING. Not legislating how fast you can put your boat in or boat ramp etiquette or boat launching safety or boats tied to the ramp. I do/did sympathize but I'm starting to lean to the too bad so sad side. All suggestions and comments here seem to be met with a real sour attitude.

05-14-2007, 01:43 PM	#69
LilacHill Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Alton Bay Posts: 45 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Regardless of the location, public, private, the beach, spain, the moon, whatever you are afraid to go there. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Uh NO. I am not afraid to go there at all. Do I think it would be a good idea? Absolutely NOT. Being that Downing's is PRIVATE PROPERTY if those dogs and mine got into something mine would be at fault because DOWNING'S IS PRIVATE PROPERTY. As I said comparing public property to private is apples to oranges. Besides isn't this the place where property owners come to vent about people treating their private property as public? And here you are telling someone to do just that. As to my dog off leash, a down stay or a sit stay to take pictures is the same as patrolling a parking lot or being off lead in the water how? And FYI 9 times out of 10 when Cuddles was off lead for pics there was never anyone else around anyway at the beach, launch, or park. __________________ Karen, Cuddles, and Dilly the Understudy with Rowdy the Ruckus Raiser

05-14-2007, 03:08 PM	#71
NightWing Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 410 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts	So now, with your method, there will be administrative costs to the town to monitor the permits and answer the phone when you log in. What about weekends? Will the town have somebody on call for log in whenever your poochies want a dip or a photo op? Great. Oh, no problem. Your permit fee will cover the administrative costs! How much should the permit cost? $5.00? $10.00? $20.00? Here is an idea. If you have town dog registrations, suggest that every registration be increased in price to cover the administrative costs of your permit/log in theory. That way, every registered dog owner will help pay the freight for a few. To answer your question, no, I do not live in Alton, although I have used that "dog" ramp to launch my boat in the past. Where I live, the ramps are maintained either by the power company or Fish and Game.

05-14-2007, 08:37 PM	#72
hazelnut Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,348 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 508 Thanked 462 Times in 162 Posts	????? Wow Lilac this is way way more difficult than it has to be. Somebody else please jump in and help me out here because this is getting exhausting. I'll try again for the last time then I give up. OK, seriously I had no intentions of getting into this debate. I for one LOVE dogs, love, love, love them. I have owned them, grew up around them, enjoyed them my whole life. I used to look at people who avoided my gorgeous, flawless, wonderful, Golden Retriever as freaks. I mean who the heck were THEY to treat my child, my buddy as a second class citizen. They were the ones with the problem, not me. Anyway, with that said, I would NEVER, EVER, EVER tell anyone at downings what to do on their own property, neither would you. That is not what I intended or implied you should do. YOU SAID: I will paraphrase: You wouldn't go somewhere because of some dogs off lead. I SAID: That is how some people feel about your dogs or anyone else's dogs that may be off lead somewhere. I recommended that you should apply that logic to how folks might disagree with your stance that Public Boat Launches should be dog friendly assuming that folks would abuse the leash law. We can assume this because people do abuse this law as agreed to by almost everyone here. I am done explaining this as people are probably bored with this. Good luck and I hope you find someplace to allow your pooch to swim freely.