Cabin Cruiser Operators - "WAKE UP!...no, WAKE DOWN"!

Islander · 06-19-2007, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knot Droolin'

Rights to land ownership are NOT constitutional as eminent domain is a state by state issue. The Supreme Court recently affirmed this in a case about New London, CT. The state and its people could very well deem your land better servers as a park or as a location for a factory and move you out as long as state law permits it.

Boating, like driving, is also considered a privilege.

Perhaps you are not aware that the New Hampshire Constitution does not allow what happened in Connecticut. But just to be sure the legislature passed a law about a year ago to prevent that kind of taking.

Yes, boating is a privilege. We have all agreed to that over and over and over and over.

tis · 06-19-2007, 11:55 AM

Islander. Knot is right. Even though you are right, the state did pass a law last year- that only prevents the taking of land by eminent domain for private use. The state could still take your land if they decided that it would be a nice place for a park. And the kicker is, they would probably not offer you anywhere near what it is worth.

Islander · 06-19-2007, 02:09 PM

Knot is Knot right! And neither are you. The owner must be paid fair value.

Even though the Supreme Court ruled in favor of taking the Connecticut homes it never happened. The owners tied them up in lawsuits over the value of the land.

However the issue was boaters vs homeowners on the lake. Some boats can and will be forced off the lake. The state buying up Bear Island to make a park is a pipe dream.

Are you really trying to say that boating on public property is the same as living in your own home?

Knot Droolin' · 06-19-2007, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Islander

Knot is Knot right! And neither are you. The owner must be paid fair value.

Even though the Supreme Court ruled in favor of taking the Connecticut homes it never happened. The owners tied them up in lawsuits over the value of the land.

Islander,

You are wrong again, the New London project continues:

http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=6666355

Woodsy · 06-19-2007, 03:14 PM

Islander...

I think your a bit off.... IF (and thats a BIG IF) the eco-friendly types got thier way, taking an island by emminent domain and setting it aside for conservation is a very plausible possibility, however unlikely it may seem to you. They could apply for some monster federal grant that requires little or no matching state funds. You are right that they have to offer a fair value... Fair value in this case will most likely be determined by your tax assessment. Its hard to argue that your property is worth more than the tax assessment and win...

Go check out Lake George... there are lots of state owned islands that you can rent and camp on!

I seriously doubt the state of NH will ever ban large boats from Lake Winnipesaukee. There are way too many marinas and boat owners and property owners that will fight that tooth and nail. Before you see large boats banned, or horsepower limits you will see distance restrictions based on weight... similar to the 300' distance from shore requirement for skicraft. A good example would be if your boat weighs more than 10000lbs, you cannot be above headway speed within 300' (or possibly more) of shore. This will help disspate some of the wave energy before it reaches the shoreline...

Woodsy

Islander · 06-19-2007, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Islander...

I think your a bit off.... IF (and thats a BIG IF) the eco-friendly types got thier way, taking an island by emminent domain and setting it aside for conservation is a very plausible possibility, however unlikely it may seem to you. They could apply for some monster federal grant that requires little or no matching state funds. You are right that they have to offer a fair value... Fair value in this case will most likely be determined by your tax assessment. Its hard to argue that your property is worth more than the tax assessment and win...

Go check out Lake George... there are lots of state owned islands that you can rent and camp on!

I seriously doubt the state of NH will ever ban large boats from Lake Winnipesaukee. There are way too many marinas and boat owners and property owners that will fight that tooth and nail. Before you see large boats banned, or horsepower limits you will see distance restrictions based on weight... similar to the 300' distance from shore requirement for skicraft. A good example would be if your boat weighs more than 10000lbs, you cannot be above headway speed within 300' (or possibly more) of shore. This will help disspate some of the wave energy before it reaches the shoreline...

Woodsy

Woodsy - How can you be so wrong?

You said there would never be speed limits. Yet here we are with speed limits on Winnipesaukee this summer.

Its easy to argue assessed values when they are under fair market value, as they usually are.

Based on average property values and the number of homes, buying up Bear Island would cost at least 75 million. It would also involve closing two children's camps in operation for a century and closing two national historic sites. Ya, that's all going to happen. Is this what you dream of when you have those 1500 horsepower going 100 mph past my dock? Does it make you smile?

At least we now know what the anti speed limit crowd REALLY WANT. They want the islands turned into parks so they can stop off and have lunch. Tell the state that when they tear down our homes they should leave the docks and picnic tables to make it nice and comfy for you guys.

Bear Islander · 06-19-2007, 04:44 PM

Hi Woodsy-

There are also several islands on Winnipesaukee that are parks. Unfortunately, hardly anyone uses them.

sa meredith · 06-19-2007, 04:54 PM

Curious which Islands are also State Parks..if you have the time to respond.

Bear Islander · 06-19-2007, 05:24 PM

None of them are state parks. I was using "park" in the generic.

Stonedam, Ragged and Five Mile are in their natural state and accessible under certain conditions. I think the www.bizer.com site has information.

sa meredith · 06-19-2007, 05:55 PM

Excuse my ignorance...

Silver Duck · 06-19-2007, 06:12 PM

APS

I'd love to come sit on your dock some afternoon, just to meet you! As far as experiencing wakes, well, I doubt that either you home or dock bounce as much as my cruiser does when a big wake strikes!

I'm also intimately familiar with how a wake can stop a sailboat dead in the water; I grew up racing small sailboats, remember? I remember many a time when I lost a race because of a wake

, and cussing my fool head off about it (under my breath -I was still young enough to have had my mouth washed out with soap if I'd said those things out loud.)

In all seriousness, I don't like big wakes, either, and I'm very, very conscious of how much I'm throwing, and where. IMHO, that's a responsibility that comes with operating a largish boat (I sure wish that the captain of the Sophie C would catch on to that).

It's just that, as always and on all subjects, I object to punishing everyone for offensive behavior on the part of some.

Silver Duck

ApS · 06-24-2007, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

"...APS I'd love to come sit on your dock some afternoon, just to meet you! As far as experiencing wakes, well, I doubt that either your home or dock bounce as much as my cruiser does when a big wake strikes!

..."

OK, but bring a House-Bounce-O-Meter® with you.

Bounce, maybe, but I'll bet you stay dryer on your boat than where I'll have you seated on my dock!

(Look for a PM).

Afternoons are not as...um...entertaining...as mornings are. I can only speculate as to why the very same cruisers will return, creeping along, in the afternoon. Maybe it's a sensible warming-up of the engines before a headlong blast towards Smith Cove, Saunders Bay, Weirs and Lakeport?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

"...In all seriousness, I don't like big wakes, either, and I'm very, very conscious of how much I'm throwing, and where. IMHO, that's a responsibility that comes with operating a largish boat (I sure wish that the captain of the Sophie C would catch on to that)..."

A Formula on eBay's auction site broke apart and sank after hitting a Winnipesaukee wake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

"...I'm also intimately familiar with how a wake can stop a sailboat dead in the water..."

And how sailboats are diminishing in numbers on Winnipesaukee too, perhaps?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

"...It's just that, as always and on all subjects, I object to punishing everyone for offensive behavior on the part of some.

You may recognize the most offensive of cruisers—and may want to have a word with a few of them yourself.

Skip · 06-19-2007, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Islander

...Woodsy - How can you be so wrong?...You said there would never be speed limits. Yet here we are with speed limits on Winnipesaukee this summer...

Well Woodsy, at least you are in good company. I remember not too long ago a poster insisting that radio controlled model boats in New Hampshire had to be registered! Hmmm, let me think......

tis · 06-19-2007, 06:24 PM

Islander-you are wrong, twice. I absolutely do not want any islands turned into parks. Second, they are SUPPOSED to offer fair market value in eminent domain cases, but they don't. I can tell you this for a fact and I can tell you of others who will back me up. I think you have a right to your land and no one should be able to take it away from you. For anything, period. But I would also hope that you wouldn't wish someone to take my boat/s away.

Woodsy · 06-19-2007, 06:48 PM

Islander...

You sure do have your dander up today!!

We have two speed limit test zones... we do not have a lakewide speed limit. I am as interested as anyone to learn what data comes out of those test zones.

Arguing your assessed tax value in a prolonged eminent domain case would be detrimental to your wealth. I can see you trying to explain that to the town assesor... I am sure the tax assesor would be seeing $$$!

As far as Bear Island property being taken by eminent domain, I was merely pointing out that it could happen. I never said that I wanted it to happen. In fact if you reread my post, you'll note I referenced the Eco-Friendly crowd. The reality is getting 75 million or so from the Feds probably isn't all that hard if it gets the proper political backing. I wonder what NH DES and NH Lakes Assoc thinks??

Woodsy

PS: My boat does not have 1500HP nor does it go 100MPH. In my last run thru Bear Island, 3500 RPM netted 41MPH...

jrc · 06-19-2007, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

....In my last run thru Bear Island, 3500 RPM netted 41MPH...

Well the speed limit in there is 45 MPH and I always heard the minimum speed was 10 less than the maximum. So by that logic, you have to do at least 35 MPH in there.

Woodsy · 06-19-2007, 07:58 PM

JRC...

I borrowed a friends GPS.... The speedo in my boat doesn't work well, and I wanted to know what speed @ what RPM. I wouldn't want to break the law or upset our Bear Island folks...

Woodsy

jrc · 06-19-2007, 08:13 PM

That was meant to be a joke. I forgot the smile faces

Mee-n-Mac · 06-19-2007, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

JRC...

I borrowed a friends GPS.... The speedo in my boat doesn't work well, and I wanted to know what speed @ what RPM. I wouldn't want to break the law or upset our Bear Island folks...

Woodsy

Gee, kinda late for that don't you think. What with all the trees you musta knocked over going thru Bear Island, I'd have thunk they'd be pretty PO'ed no matter what the speed ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

In my last run thru Bear Island, 3500 RPM netted 41MPH...

ps - So how many cabins did ya score ? Should NH put a round-a-bout there ?

SIKSUKR · 06-20-2007, 08:07 AM

M&M,you always have something funny to post.I thought a round-a-bout around Eagle Island would have been better than a NWZ.But then again,one way signs,and what if you hit the curb on the island?

Dave R · 06-20-2007, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

But then again,one way signs,and what if you hit the curb on the island?

If you have tubeless props, you could potentially unseat a bead.

codeman671 · 06-20-2007, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

M&M,you always have something funny to post.I thought a round-a-bout around Eagle Island would have been better than a NWZ.But then again,one way signs,and what if you hit the curb on the island?

Being that Eagle is on the market for sale I am assuming that they are tired of having boats jump the curb and end up in their front lawn...

SIKSUKR · 06-20-2007, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

Being that Eagle is on the market for sale I am assuming that they are tired of having boats jump the curb and end up in their front lawn...

Good point Codeman.You could always put Jersey barriers around the island!

fatlazyless · 06-20-2007, 12:29 PM

If I remember correct, Timber Island, which is a huge island, 126 acres, was put up for sale a few years back for only 1.3 million dollars. Most of it to remain untouched, by easement, and it took a long time for the sale to go thru. It was a shame that the State of NH did not buy it. They could have bought it for a bargain basement, super-duper, lowest price - highest quality. dirt cheap price and then taken their time figuring out how to use it someday when the state has the money. Did they do it? No, of course not. What's to expect from the then majority of the 'live free or die' Republicans? 'Foresight.....outlook.... & thinking about tomorrow'....not present at that time.

We always hear that the lake belongs to the peoples of NH. So why not Timber Island, that very large and untouched primieval forest-island, too? Who knows, there could be a long time Neanderthal family happily living off the land, hidden away deep inside Timber Island? Anyone been hearing those drum beats late at night coming from Timber Island? They be going - boom da da - boom - da da -boom boom boom!

At 1.3 mil for 126 acres, that's $10k/acre and Timber Isl could be part of the state park system, waiting the day for when a D is in office who could find the funds to create it. But no, the 2003 Benson R-team was just not interested.

(...gotta go now - time to take my medication!)

ITD · 06-20-2007, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

Should NH put a round-a-bout there ?

Not a good idea, a round-a-bout would cause a whirlpool, which would suck all the kayaks and canoes in the lake to that location. Island people wouldn't like that, all those paddle marks in their water.

Gavia immer · 06-20-2007, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Before you see large boats banned, or horsepower limits you will see distance restrictions based on weight... similar to the 300' distance from shore requirement for skicraft. A good example would be if your boat weighs more than 10000lbs, you cannot be above headway speed within 300' (or possibly more) of shore. This will help disspate some of the wave energy before it reaches the shoreline...

Woodsy

From kayak, I've noticed a great many more fresh green trees have fallen in the water this year than in previous years. Take a kayak around and see for yourself.

Last spring, the Dep of Safety suggested 600' to stop wake damage to shorelines but that didn't work out so well, did it? From 600', you can't see what's happened to the shoreline from your wakes.

chipj29 · 06-21-2007, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavia immer

From kayak, I've noticed a great many more fresh green trees have fallen in the water this year than in previous years. Take a kayak around and see for yourself.

Last spring, the Dep of Safety suggested 600' to stop wake damage to shorelines but that didn't work out so well, did it? From 600', you can't see what's happened to the shoreline from your wakes.

Could all the trees fallen in the water be a result of high lake levels due to flooding the past 2 seasons?

Gavia immer · 06-24-2007, 05:06 PM

When the lake gets overfilled, you can expect erosion. The past year of THREE high water episodes will magnify shoreline erosion, with windy days being the worst. Wakes from boats multiply the effect of natural wave action on windy days. On calm days, when no erosion would take place, wakes continue the erosion process and eventually the roots have nothing to hold onto.

A certain number of trees fall in every year. When the trees still have leaves on them, those are recent falls. Compared to previous years, "green falls" since Spring of 2006 are a very high number. "Green falls" are all around, and on all shores. You need to look up close to see that they're newly fallen.

06-19-2007, 03:14 PM	#5
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,969 Thanks: 80 Thanked 980 Times in 440 Posts	Islander... I think your a bit off.... IF (and thats a BIG IF) the eco-friendly types got thier way, taking an island by emminent domain and setting it aside for conservation is a very plausible possibility, however unlikely it may seem to you. They could apply for some monster federal grant that requires little or no matching state funds. You are right that they have to offer a fair value... Fair value in this case will most likely be determined by your tax assessment. Its hard to argue that your property is worth more than the tax assessment and win... Go check out Lake George... there are lots of state owned islands that you can rent and camp on! I seriously doubt the state of NH will ever ban large boats from Lake Winnipesaukee. There are way too many marinas and boat owners and property owners that will fight that tooth and nail. Before you see large boats banned, or horsepower limits you will see distance restrictions based on weight... similar to the 300' distance from shore requirement for skicraft. A good example would be if your boat weighs more than 10000lbs, you cannot be above headway speed within 300' (or possibly more) of shore. This will help disspate some of the wave energy before it reaches the shoreline... Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

06-19-2007, 04:54 PM	#8
sa meredith Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 986 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 32 Thanked 352 Times in 137 Posts	Islands are Parks??? Curious which Islands are also State Parks..if you have the time to respond.

06-19-2007, 05:55 PM	#10
sa meredith Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 986 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 32 Thanked 352 Times in 137 Posts	Ohh... Excuse my ignorance...

06-19-2007, 06:48 PM	#15
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,969 Thanks: 80 Thanked 980 Times in 440 Posts	Islander... You sure do have your dander up today!! We have two speed limit test zones... we do not have a lakewide speed limit. I am as interested as anyone to learn what data comes out of those test zones. Arguing your assessed tax value in a prolonged eminent domain case would be detrimental to your wealth. I can see you trying to explain that to the town assesor... I am sure the tax assesor would be seeing $$$! As far as Bear Island property being taken by eminent domain, I was merely pointing out that it could happen. I never said that I wanted it to happen. In fact if you reread my post, you'll note I referenced the Eco-Friendly crowd. The reality is getting 75 million or so from the Feds probably isn't all that hard if it gets the proper political backing. I wonder what NH DES and NH Lakes Assoc thinks?? Woodsy PS: My boat does not have 1500HP nor does it go 100MPH. In my last run thru Bear Island, 3500 RPM netted 41MPH... __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

06-19-2007, 07:58 PM	#17
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,969 Thanks: 80 Thanked 980 Times in 440 Posts	JRC... I borrowed a friends GPS.... The speedo in my boat doesn't work well, and I wanted to know what speed @ what RPM. I wouldn't want to break the law or upset our Bear Island folks... Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

06-19-2007, 11:55 AM	#2
tis Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,851 Thanks: 765 Thanked 1,474 Times in 1,029 Posts	Islander. Knot is right. Even though you are right, the state did pass a law last year- that only prevents the taking of land by eminent domain for private use. The state could still take your land if they decided that it would be a nice place for a park. And the kicker is, they would probably not offer you anywhere near what it is worth.

06-19-2007, 02:09 PM	#3
Islander Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 321 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 3 Posts	Knot is Knot right! And neither are you. The owner must be paid fair value. Even though the Supreme Court ruled in favor of taking the Connecticut homes it never happened. The owners tied them up in lawsuits over the value of the land. However the issue was boaters vs homeowners on the lake. Some boats can and will be forced off the lake. The state buying up Bear Island to make a park is a pipe dream. Are you really trying to say that boating on public property is the same as living in your own home?

06-19-2007, 04:44 PM	#7
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,765 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	Hi Woodsy- There are also several islands on Winnipesaukee that are parks. Unfortunately, hardly anyone uses them.

06-19-2007, 05:24 PM	#9
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,765 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	None of them are state parks. I was using "park" in the generic. Stonedam, Ragged and Five Mile are in their natural state and accessible under certain conditions. I think the www.bizer.com site has information.

06-19-2007, 06:12 PM	#11
Silver Duck Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Billerica, MA Posts: 364 Thanks: 40 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	APS I'd love to come sit on your dock some afternoon, just to meet you! As far as experiencing wakes, well, I doubt that either you home or dock bounce as much as my cruiser does when a big wake strikes! I'm also intimately familiar with how a wake can stop a sailboat dead in the water; I grew up racing small sailboats, remember? I remember many a time when I lost a race because of a wake , and cussing my fool head off about it (under my breath -I was still young enough to have had my mouth washed out with soap if I'd said those things out loud.) In all seriousness, I don't like big wakes, either, and I'm very, very conscious of how much I'm throwing, and where. IMHO, that's a responsibility that comes with operating a largish boat (I sure wish that the captain of the Sophie C would catch on to that). It's just that, as always and on all subjects, I object to punishing everyone for offensive behavior on the part of some. Silver Duck

06-19-2007, 06:24 PM	#14
tis Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,851 Thanks: 765 Thanked 1,474 Times in 1,029 Posts	Islander-you are wrong, twice. I absolutely do not want any islands turned into parks. Second, they are SUPPOSED to offer fair market value in eminent domain cases, but they don't. I can tell you this for a fact and I can tell you of others who will back me up. I think you have a right to your land and no one should be able to take it away from you. For anything, period. But I would also hope that you wouldn't wish someone to take my boat/s away.

06-19-2007, 08:13 PM	#18
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	That was meant to be a joke. I forgot the smile faces

06-20-2007, 08:07 AM	#20
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	M&M,you always have something funny to post.I thought a round-a-bout around Eagle Island would have been better than a NWZ.But then again,one way signs,and what if you hit the curb on the island? __________________ SIKSUKR

06-20-2007, 12:29 PM	#24
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,970 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 310 Thanked 1,062 Times in 775 Posts	If I remember correct, Timber Island, which is a huge island, 126 acres, was put up for sale a few years back for only 1.3 million dollars. Most of it to remain untouched, by easement, and it took a long time for the sale to go thru. It was a shame that the State of NH did not buy it. They could have bought it for a bargain basement, super-duper, lowest price - highest quality. dirt cheap price and then taken their time figuring out how to use it someday when the state has the money. Did they do it? No, of course not. What's to expect from the then majority of the 'live free or die' Republicans? 'Foresight.....outlook.... & thinking about tomorrow'....not present at that time. We always hear that the lake belongs to the peoples of NH. So why not Timber Island, that very large and untouched primieval forest-island, too? Who knows, there could be a long time Neanderthal family happily living off the land, hidden away deep inside Timber Island? Anyone been hearing those drum beats late at night coming from Timber Island? They be going - boom da da - boom - da da -boom boom boom! At 1.3 mil for 126 acres, that's $10k/acre and Timber Isl could be part of the state park system, waiting the day for when a D is in office who could find the funds to create it. But no, the 2003 Benson R-team was just not interested. (...gotta go now - time to take my medication!) Last edited by fatlazyless; 06-20-2007 at 07:04 PM.

06-24-2007, 05:06 PM	#28
Gavia immer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 193 Thanks: 21 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	When the lake gets overfilled, you can expect erosion. The past year of THREE high water episodes will magnify shoreline erosion, with windy days being the worst. Wakes from boats multiply the effect of natural wave action on windy days. On calm days, when no erosion would take place, wakes continue the erosion process and eventually the roots have nothing to hold onto. A certain number of trees fall in every year. When the trees still have leaves on them, those are recent falls. Compared to previous years, "green falls" since Spring of 2006 are a very high number. "Green falls" are all around, and on all shores. You need to look up close to see that they're newly fallen.