Gas Prices affecting Boat usage??

[TomC]

...can run up to $50K in price depending on make and equipment, so that makes the extra $100 in weekend gas use even more silly as an agrument for fewer boats..

BUT..

some of the boats out there are day boaters. That means 50, 100, 250 mile or more round trip towing events with a truck or SUV getting 15 mpg if you're lucky. Then comes gas for the boat, throw in a room rental and a meal or two and it gets into a $500 weekend, easily. Budgets are squeezed by the current energy prices (electric, oil, and natural gas are up too). I can see a family budget being challenged to the point where the aforementioned $500 boating junket does not get funded...

[jrc]

In the last two years gas has gone up around 50%, your average family income didn't, so somthing has to give. Some people may just stay home.

[Paugus Bay Resident]

I agree. Fuel is the least expensive component (typically) of owning a boat. With the summer season so short, I won't be changing anything. Weather has a far bigger impact, on me anyway.

[coronado]

I don't post much, but this has been the subject of conversation at my work and I thought I would pass on some thoughts. It isn't just the price of the gas. It is everything combined with ownership (slip, maint, ins, reg, etc) But, more than that, common folk are paying more for just about everything in life (gas, food , real estate taxes, health insurance, etc. ) I work for a medium size city in Mass. In the past couple years, health insurance costs have jumped big time, with 23% and 17% increases. My real estate taxes have jumped also. In my town , if your kids want to play sports in school, it now costs as much as a grand. So, i believe that the slower economy, the lack of funding for cities and towns, schools, has now caught up and your seeing the effects.....

[HomeWood]

Ah, I should have thought of the day trippers. I could see gas prices holding them back depending on the distance they need to travel if it came down to a day of boating or a week of grocerys. Our families "big boat" has been in storage now for two years in Moultonborough. The dock never even went in the water last year, but maybe this year the dock and boat will go in. It's not because of gas prices, it's just taking the time for my family to get up there and do it, since my Gma can't do it herself. I'd love to tow my boat up there from here, but that dang required safety certificate is in the way. No such thing required here

[Gavia immer]

The trend has been downward for at least four years. We're basing a new season's downtrending on one weekend's turnout?

[Lakegeezer]

Just one example, but the gas prices are affecting my boat usage. Its still running on the first tank of gas has been in the water since early May. The kayaking are sure getting a lot more use. Instead of burning a gallon or two for a sunset cruise, we paddle out to see the sun set. If others are doing the same thing, much of the traffic on the lake will be undetected. Sort of nice, and hopefully the local economy can be sustained in additional ways to selling big boats and lots of gas.

[HomeWood]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

The kayaking are sure getting a lot more use. Instead of burning a gallon or two for a sunset cruise, we paddle out to see the sun set.

Ya sure, rub it in why don't ya.

[ApS]

"...MarineMax [publicly-traded boat sales company] seems to be shaking off the worst of it. The $1.2 billion corporation has more than 2,200 employees at 88 retail locations selling everything from $20,000 starter boats to multi million dollar yachts..." www.discoverboating.com

A "starter-boat" at $20,000?

I'm seeing NH-registered large boats with a "B?" suffix following the registration number—mostly. (Example: NH 1234 BK). It follows that the higher the letter, the newer the boat. (My boats all have registrations in the "A"s, and have never owned a "B" boat).

New boats are purchased on credit, right? Wouldn't a credit card with adjustable rate mortgages (ARM), or an equity loan adjustable rate mortgages (ARM), tend to "rate-creep"?

Could ARMs—and gas prices—both be leveraging against vacations?

(We won't mention all those Massachusetts houses with ARMs).

[kjbathe]

I agree with the original post -- gas is a drop in the tank compared to the overall cost of boat ownership. I think we're very fortunate that the price of gas isn't a factor in our boat usage. But when you add up all the rising costs, it does end up being a real choice for some people: Another six pack or another gallon a gas for the boat? Another hot fudge sundae or another gallon of gas in the boat?

While the reasons for the perceived downturn in boat traffic may be many and unclear, one thing is certain: I'll never complain about having less traffic on the water.

[offmycloud]

Originally Posted by HomeWood

Ah, I should have thought of the day trippers. I could see gas prices holding them back depending on the distance they need to travel if it came down to a day of boating or a week of grocerys. Our families "big boat" has been in storage now for two years in Moultonborough. The dock never even went in the water last year, but maybe this year the dock and boat will go in. It's not because of gas prices, it's just taking the time for my family to get up there and do it, since my Gma can't do it herself. I'd love to tow my boat up there from here, but that dang required safety certificate is in the way. No such thing required here

I bet that's a lot of it - that dang SAFETY CERTIFICATE! It's a freakin pain to get and I bet a lot of people didn't bother getting it, or forgot to do it or kept putting it off like I did. If you didn't get it on line prior to 12/31/06 you now have to take a course! The online thing was painful enough. And it's clear, you definitely don't want to get caught without one. Nice going state of NH, decimate the local economy to bring in a little more state revenue!

[kjbathe]

Originally Posted by offmycloud

Nice going state of NH, decimate the local economy to bring in a little more state revenue!

Whoa, that's a big leap there! I'm not aware of any signs that the local economy is suffering (e.g. MC weekend was declared another success) because of a multi-year phase in of the boating safety certificate requirement. But, if a once-in-a-lifetime need to sit in class for 8 hours for a tune up on safe boating practice is too much to ask, then I'm happy to not have those folks on the water. But that does raise a good point -- are gas prices keeping traffic down or is the lack of certified operators and renters playing into the mix?

[jetskier]

All of this is predicated upon the thought that usage is off, however, folks are still keeping their boat. I think that some of the point use, such as going for ice cream is likely tied directly to gas prices. But, if I were going to think about saving money, I would sell the boat. That being said, are there more used boats on the market this year?

Jetskier

[ossipeeboater]

Originally Posted by jetskier

All of this is predicated upon the thought that usage is off, however, folks are still keeping their boat. I think that some of the point use, such as going for ice cream is likely tied directly to gas prices. But, if I were going to think about saving money, I would sell the boat. That being said, are there more used boats on the market this year?

Jetskier

according to several sales people at marinas used sales have actuallly been pretty good although I don't think new are that hot, guess I should have put mine on this spring instead of waiting till after the season.

[offmycloud]

I personally like less boats on the water and more qualified operators, too. However, less boats means less people spending money in the region and that absolutely takes it toll on the economy and jobs for local people. If motorcycle weekend is making up for it, awesome.

I am betting this boating downturn has a lot to do with that dang certificate and I think the program has been phasing in over the last four years which would jibe with the trend observed.

Does anyone have any safety stats over the past ten years? Sort of pre and post boating certificate? That would confirm this. If accidents have dropped significantly that means less yahoos are on the lake now.

[sa meredith]

The Boat Safety Certificate was actually very easy to get until recently. Before January '07, you could simply go on line and take the course. Although it was time consuming (took me 2.5/3 hours) you could open the test in one window, and the course in another window. And then just go back and forth finding the answers. However, I believe I read somewhere they have done away with this. The course must now be taken "in person" and the test taken in the presence of a moderator.

[jrc]

You can still take the COURSE online, but you must take the TEST in person.

See here http://www.boat-ed.com/nh/index.htm

I heard a few people complain about the general certification requirement and I'm sure it has had a small effect. The biggest annoyance is the confusing reciprocity. If you have a certification from another state or organization, are you covered? The answer is alway "it depends" and it's not always easy for potential visitors to find out. I had one person, on another forum tell me he was going to Lake George because he wasn't sure he was covered here.

[HomeWood]

I am looking into coming home this summer for vacation with my wife and we'd like to make the lake house a destination. The big boat is in storage and the little boat is probably not even registered. So, I'd like to tow my boat up. Just because it would be a huge pain in the rear for me to try and schedule a time to take the test doesn't mean that I shouldn't be on the water. My deep V Tracker boat goes 30mph wide open and I like to cruise at like 20 and I am probably TOO safe of an operator. I learned all my boating skills on Winnipesaukee growing up. I would spend the extra fuel to tow it up for just a week, because I want to boat there that bad. But thanks to a bunch of dummies who failed to yield to a sailboat/canoe etc, blew threw a "no wake" area and committed whatever other violation, I can't just come up to boat in the Live free or Die state and contribute to the economy in my most favorite place in the world and future retirement destination.

[sa meredith]

Honestly...this is not meant to be "a slap" to anyone without a Safety Cert., but, really, until January of this year, it was just a matter of logging on to the site, and setting aside the 2 to 3 hours to complete the test. As long as you passed, and entered your credit card number, your certificate was printed out THE SECOND you passed. You had it instantly (it was good for 30 days, until the hard plastic version came in the mail). I think that anyone who does not have it, always thought, "yeah, I'll get to it, just not today". Honestly, I put it off, until the night before a day of boating in 2005 (the first time I was required to have it). I went on line at 9PM and had the cert. at midnight. It is now a much more difficult process.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by jrc

"...The safety cert may be a small part but I doubt it's a big part..."

I wonder. Here's one more piece of anecdotal evidence:

My tenant is waiting for the Saturday of his arrival at Lake Winnipesaukee to take the proctored examination!

Because of his busy schedule, he said he will just sail his sailboat if he misses the exam. (Or if his battery from last season won't hold a charge ).

Originally Posted by HomeWood

"...But thanks to a bunch of dummies who failed to yield to a sailboat/canoe etc, blew threw a "no wake" area and committed whatever other violation, I can't just come up to boat in the Live free or Die state and contribute to the economy in my most favorite place in the world and future retirement destination..."

I hear you.

Originally Posted by jrc

"...By my observation, there are lot more PWC now than there were 5 or 10 years ago, and since the total boats hasn't changed much, there must be less power boats. I don't know if this is good or bad. It does make me question all the talk of overcrowding on the lake..."

The PWCs that are "boats", or the ones that aren't "boats"?

Most PWCs are very fast: a perception that "the lake is overcrowded" may be due to the exaggerated area of lake that only one PWC takes up. (While at top speed, which is how most are operated).

To put it another way, if PWCs were all anchored instead of running around helter-skelter, nobody would notice them.

[ossipeeboater]

Originally Posted by offmycloud

I personally like less boats on the water and more qualified operators, too. However, less boats means less people spending money in the region and that absolutely takes it toll on the economy and jobs for local people. If motorcycle weekend is making up for it, awesome.

I am betting this boating downturn has a lot to do with that dang certificate and I think the program has been phasing in over the last four years which would jibe with the trend observed.

Does anyone have any safety stats over the past ten years? Sort of pre and post boating certificate? That would confirm this. If accidents have dropped significantly that means less yahoos are on the lake now.

there has never been a significant amount of accidents which is what made the cert and the speed limit a silly fight.

[offmycloud]

Originally Posted by ossipeeboater

there has never been a significant amount of accidents which is what made the cert and the speed limit a silly fight.

So basically no benefit other than the state shakes us down for more money. I'm sure people who trailer it just go to other lakes instead now as other posters have pointed out.

[KBoater]

Homewood
If you are out of state you could take a qualified course from the Power Squadron or similar origination in your area. The certificate will be recognized in NH if it says that the course is approved by the National Association of State Boating Law Administrators. (NASBLA). This way you can be set to boat in NH and most other states.

[sgold44]

Check out this site for info on a 14 day temp. cert.
http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/s.../14dayrev.html

[pirkaus]

I took the test online and it was easy. Some people I work with waited and took the course and test, they said it was a piece of cake.

As far as the lack of boats goes I think it's the big economic picture not just gas prices.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by offmycloud

So basically no benefit other than the state shakes us down for more money. I'm sure people who trailer it just go to other lakes instead now as other posters have pointed out.

I think there's a huge benefit. It was not just about reducing accidents, if that was the case they probably would not have bothered, it's about following the rules which makes things easier for everyone (as well as safer).

I find that many more boaters understand the concept of stand-on and give-way compared to just a few years ago. This has surely made my boating experience less stressful. Hopefully, the sections about bilge blowers and CO poisoning will prevent some deaths, injuries and property damage too.

There's a large percentage of folks who would never learn this stuff until they are forced to. If having to learn the rules keeps people from boating, that's awesome, from my perspective. I'd rather not share the lake with folks who can't be bothered to get certified.

[Gavia immer]

Originally Posted by ossipeeboater

there has never been a significant amount of accidents which is what made the cert and the speed limit a silly fight.

Is there some requirement to report every collision?

[Paugus Bay Resident]

Is there some requirement to report every collision?

Any accident involving a death, personal injury or property damage over $2,000 in property damage must be reported.

[Gavia immer]

Originally Posted by Paugus Bay Resident

Any accident involving a death, personal injury or property damage over $2,000 in property damage must be reported.

I hope the NH fine for failure to report an accident is higher than in Massachusetts. Just $250 for not reporting personal injury after hitting a kid on a tube, split between the two offenders.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/art...ty/Region+News

[robmac]

what a day,just came off the lake zero traffic fantastic.Never more than 4 boats at a time in Braun Bay,Marine Patrol made a quick trip through to check distance from shore for the couple of boats there then left with a wave

[Ropetow]

Real quiet in the Alton Bay area today. We were out for a while around noon, and counted maybe 12 other boats in about 2 hours (not including a pedal-boat by the Gazebo and four kayaks). Yeah, it was a bit windy and sunshine was spotty at best, but still....This is the prime summer season! Today may not have been the best day possible to boat on the lake, but come January, it'll seem fantabulous!

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Paugus Bay Resident

Any accident involving a death, personal injury or property damage over $2,000 in property damage must be reported.

My 2004 Boaters Guide of New Hampshire states that $500 in damage must be reported.

Would this change account for the "improved boating" we're seeing in the most recent US Coast Guard accident statistics?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by offmycloud

"...I bet that's a lot of it - that dang SAFETY CERTIFICATE...!"

That's likely a part of it.

When arriving home after sundown last night, I noticed that the residential shoreline here was very dark for this time of year: that's a lot of boats not on the water.

Save for this upcoming "July 4th" week, what we're witnessing through our front windows is starting to sound alarming. Two years ago we discussed the possibility of decreasing boating here on this forum, and found a very different opinion:

"...I can think of no waterway that I have boated on in the last 40 years that has seen a decrease in boating population..."

Originally Posted by Dave R

"...There's a large percentage of folks who would never learn this stuff until they are forced to. If having to learn the rules keeps people from boating, that's awesome, from my perspective. I'd rather not share the lake with folks who can't be bothered to get certified...."

That's a whole lot of people with Hobies, kayaks, sculls, canoes, sailboards, windsurfers, sailboats, rowboats, powered inflatables and small outboards!

I think you meant, all those boaters who failed the test....

No, wait....

Originally Posted by offmycloud

"...Nice going state of NH, decimate the local economy to bring in a little more state revenue...!

I heard yesterday that NH taxpayers are going to supply a lot "more state revenue". Seventeen percent more?

[jrc]

The safety cert may be a small part but I doubt it's a big part. On the macro scale (the last forty years) boating has grown agressively, but on a shorter time scale (the last 5-10 years) boating growth has been slow to flat. If you dig through this site http://www.bts.gov You will see that the US and NH growth in boat registrations has been about 1% per year for the last few years. Maybe it's gas, maybe it's changing life styles, maybe it's the aging population, but it's bigger than our lake and it's bigger than NH.

I'm all for the safety cert and can't possibly see why applying the exisitng test or a sub-set of it to "Hobies, kayaks, sculls, canoes, sailboards, windsurfers, sailboats, rowboats, powered inflatables and small outboards" would be harmful.

I do think the state needs to make it easier to get the training by accepting courses for other states, the USPS and private training companies.

[Dave R]

APS, you know what I meant. Motor boaters.

[Gavia immer]

Originally Posted by jrc

You will see that the US and NH growth in boat registrations has been about 1% per year for the last few years.

That's good?

Is the quality of government tracking good enough to account for a NET gain in boat registrations?

Several states require that all boats be registered. What happens when you lose your registered kayak to rapids, your wife backs over it, or it drifts off to Greenland?

While some may report the loss, it's more often the case that it gets forgotten.

Exports, totalled, stolen, parted-out, impounded, dumped, sunk, stored, recalled, lost-at-sea, and normal attrition among the general population of boats would account for some significant LOSS.

A new-but-unrequired boat registration would be recorded wrongly as a net gain among registrations. 1% is not a good sign.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Gavia immer

That's good?

.....

I don't know.

I agree that measurement error could cause a 1% change. In NH, this number does not include paddle boats, so that's not a factor. So for the last few years there has not been a meaningful change in the total number of power boats.

By my observation, there are lot more PWC now than there were 5 or 10 years ago, and since the total boats hasn't changed much, there must be less power boats. I don't know if this is good or bad. It does make me question all the talk of overcrowding on the lake.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

I heard yesterday that NH taxpayers are going to supply a lot "more state revenue". Seventeen percent more?

What do you mean by that APS?

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by tis

What do you mean by that APS?

Perhaps this article from the online Laconia Citizen will help:

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...057/-1/citizen

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Dave R

APS, you know what I meant. Motor boaters.

Well, little boats tend to "get forgotten", is all.

Originally Posted by jrc

"...I'm all for the safety cert and can't possibly see why applying the existing test or a sub-set of it to "Hobies, kayaks, sculls, canoes, sailboards, windsurfers, sailboats, rowboats, powered inflatables and small outboards" would be harmful..."

1) If you started your boating career in one of those boats, you already understand the crying need for testing the operators of all larger boats. Most small boaters are already highly vigilant of weather conditions, as there's no racing-home option!

2) The absence of required decals, stickers, and hassles/expense of registration is an encouragement for such boating. Now that a sticker is required "For The Environment"—some, on a sunny summer day—will pick up an electronic game instead of "throwing the boat in the water" and risking a ticket.

The same applies to "educational" testing: another hassle-factor that contributes to boaters staying home.

3) The few boats out there—late in June—range from a few ski-boats up to many much-larger boats, so the price of gas isn't affecting everyone.

4) An aging population should mean more recreation time. Faced with the "educational requirement" for those aging boaters (who "already know all about boating" ), they'd recreate elsewhere to avoid the hassle of a ticket.

5) The downturn started 2004-2005, right in the middle of dialing-in the educational requirement—starting with the youngest boaters.

6) The unmistakable (and unsustainable) trend in boat size is ever-upwards: is it in self-defense? IMHO, large boats knock the fun out of smaller boats.

Originally Posted by tis

What do you mean by that APS? [tax increase]

All I have is hearsay: 11% for the budget, the rest for "fees"? I don't know—my source reads the Union Leader. Thanks for the saving link GWC.

[offmycloud]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

I heard yesterday that NH taxpayers are going to supply a lot "more state revenue". Seventeen percent more?

It's sad. Now NH like Massachusetts is seeking goverments' greatest goal - socialism, the form of government which is a dramatic failure everywhere it is tried. Licenses for everything, checkpoints, high fees and taxes, government control of everything - it's all going in that direction. Next up - re-education camps for those who protest.

[tis]

So true offmycloud. Very sad.

[kjbathe]

Originally Posted by offmycloud

It's sad. Now NH like Massachusetts is seeking goverments' greatest goal - socialism, the form of government which is a dramatic failure everywhere it is tried.

The people had their opportunity to vote last year and put the Democrats in control of Concord for the first time in... 70+ years? How anyone can be shocked at the result of that decision and it's reward of new fees and higher taxes is beyond me. But class warfare, wealth envy and grand schemes to re-distribute said wealth is what we do best in this country today -- along with pointing fingers of blame at everyone else for what we did to ourselves.

Gas costs what it costs and our Constitution makes no guarantee that we should have cheap or affordable gas. We can blame "big oil" and their record profits and then try to tax the crap out of them for making money, but that's nuts. We can simply dismiss the stagnant growth in refining capacity over the past 30 years, the regulatory tangle of EPA and other federal hurdles that block additional capacity from being built and shrug off an increase in global demand for the same crude. We can ignore the fact that we've regulated ourselves into the need to refine more than 30 unique blends of regional fuels that result in supply disruptions as the change-overs take place. But the reality is we did this to ourselves and this is the free market at work. Folks don't like that answer, but I think we only need look as far as Iran this week: While sitting on top of some of the worlds richest petroleum reserves, the Iranians imposed gas rations this week in response to it's own lack of refining capacity and dependence on external sources for up to half of it's gasoline supply. When Iran doesn't have gas...

As power boaters, we're operating RECREATIONAL vehicles that consume somewhere between 1 and 4 gallons of gasoline or more per mile of travel. With those kind of numbers, boaters should be the LAST ones complaining about the price of gas. For me, $3.50 a gallon for 89 octane containing less than 10% ethanol, for a seasonal gas station, on the waterfront with it's additional marine environmental considerations -- It's still a pretty good deal.

[SIKSUKR]

Wow! You nailed that one right on kjbathe!

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by kjbathe

{snip} -- along with pointing fingers of blame at everyone else for what we did to ourselves. {snip}

Yeah, what he said !!