Wolfeboro Docks Question

jrc · 07-20-2007, 10:25 AM

First, let me say that I think the handicapped spaces as they stand and especially how the town went about it, really stinks.

But I am really surprised about the general tone from some of the posters here. All this talk about giving an unfair advantage to the handicapped is a little disturbing. Is it really too hard to let a disabled veteran, who lost a leg in Iraq, go ahead of you in line. What about the 87 year old great-grandmother who can't take much sun. Or the 70 year old man who had a stroke and can't be out of his wheel chair for long periods. Or even the pregnant women, who may really need a bathroom now.

How many times have we been told that we should feel sorry for the taxes on million dollar waterfront. But I shouldn't worry about these people.

How many times have we been told, you're at the lake to have fun, what's the hurry. Your kids can't wait an extra 15-20 minutes for their ice cream while these people dock?

Irrigation Guy · 07-20-2007, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

First, let me say that I think the handicapped spaces as they stand and especially how the town went about it, really stinks.

But I am really surprised about the general tone from some of the posters here. All this talk about giving an unfair advantage to the handicapped is a little disturbing. Is it really too hard to let a disabled veteran, who lost a leg in Iraq, go ahead of you in line. What about the 87 year old great-grandmother who can't take much sun. Or the 70 year old man who had a stroke and can't be out of his wheel chair for long periods. Or even the pregnant women, who may really need a bathroom now.

How many times have we been told that we should feel sorry for the taxes on million dollar waterfront. But I shouldn't worry about these people.

How many times have we been told, you're at the lake to have fun, what's the hurry. Your kids can't wait an extra 15-20 minutes for their ice cream while these people dock?

While I agree that while most of us are out there for pleasure, I just don't believe these spots are gonna help any boater with special needs. As others have mentioned there are no special facilities, just the ability to cut in line.

I also believe that any boater would gladly give way to allow any of those with the special circumstances that you list above to go in front of them.

Its called common courtesy.

I also notice from time to time there are people out there that abuse these privileges when on land.

Just my .02.

parrothead · 07-20-2007, 01:00 PM

I haven't been to the docks in question, but instead of reserving a number of slips as handicapped how about just one. The examples given on the forum for using these slips for their intended purpose, are of able bodied boaters with handicapped passengers. I would think a better idea would be to have a single slip that is near the parking lot and has some "equipment" that would actually help a handicapped individual get in and out of a boat. This could mean a lift chair or something else that could facilitate this individual in and out of a boat easier. Once the HP is assisted out of the boat then the abled bodied captain goes back in to the line to get to a dock. Handicapped parking spaces in land based parking lots are close to the stores and usually wider than a regular space. This is to cut down on the distance walked, and lift vans, or walkers, crutches, etc.
Now the one sticking point is the if the handicapped person is driving the boat and then could not use the assistance provided and then dock the boat else where. But by the sounds of it for these individuals the current slips provide no more benefit than any other slip on the docks. And in fact ones closer to the parking lot would be preferrable. By the description these slips are easier to dock at than the ones closer to the shore, ie don't have pull between boats to get to the slips. Just my .02 as well. I don't think that a handicapped person should be detered from getting out and enjoying the lake and the different locations around lake. But it does sound like all these slips do is cut down on the time spent waiting in line with the rest of us. I am all for the ADA and what it can do, when used properly this just doesn't sound like one of those times.

parrothead · 07-20-2007, 01:03 PM

I guess it took me too long to type my last message, so I second what Jan says.

Jan · 07-20-2007, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

Is it really too hard to let a disabled veteran, who lost a leg in Iraq, go ahead of you in line.

First I want to make it clear that I never park in handicapped spots and have scolded people who use them improperly. This is different. People should be able to look for a solution that makes the most sense without being accused of being unsympathetic.

Handicapped spots for cars are important to allow handicapped people easier access to stores and other essential services. Handicapped boat spots do not provide easier access, only a shorter wait. Also, a handicapped car driver is frequently alone doing their errands while a boater usually has a group of people with them. Is it fair to let a whole boatload of people cut in line because one passenger has a handicap?

Wouldn't the obvious, fair and most effective solution be to provide a handicapped DROP-OFF area? Equip it with a ramp or lift where people could drop-off the handicapped person and then get in line for a spot. I don't think anyone would object to that.

Even with a ramp or lift getting a handicapped person from the boat to the dock is hazardous at best. Take a look at this video that my husband showed me. It is both funny and painful to watch. Why would you put a handicapped person in such a position?

kjbathe · 07-20-2007, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan

Is it fair to let a whole boatload of people cut in line because one passenger has a handicap?

Wouldn't the obvious, fair and most effective solution be to provide a handicapped DROP-OFF area?

This assumes that the handicapped individual can dis/embark the vessel without assistance and/or remain unassisted once on the dock. It's a fast and slippery slope to assume that all handicaps are equal, can be accommodated by the same equipment, or that folks can be dropped off at all.

I don't have a good solution here... I'm not insensitive to the handicaps of others. I have both healthy and disabled veterans in my family, some that are too proud to think they warrant any special privileges. ADA compliance and wanting to fill the gap for the all-too-common lack of common sense/courtesy are good things in my opinion. But implementation of a solution in this case that makes sense and addresses the need in a reasonable way is escaping me at the moment.

With that, I think we've all gone full circle on this one. The spots are there, there's no enforcement, the decent people will let those less fortunate pass -- as they would even if the blue spots didn't exist. And the rest of the world will, unfortunately, still be in a rush, on the phone, too important, and decrying any advantage that someone else may have over them even if said "advantage" came at the cost of a stroke, service to our country, debilitating accident beyond their control, or simply a long happy life and a failing body.

KTO · 07-20-2007, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjbathe

This assumes that the handicapped individual can dis/embark the vessel without assistance and/or remain unassisted once on the dock. It's a fast and slippery slope to assume that all handicaps are equal, can be accommodated by the same equipment, or that folks can be dropped off at all.

Exactly what I was saying...and I agree with you 100%.

Most boaters with common sense would let some suffering person have the nearest boat slip...I know I would.

It's just ridiculous.... Protest time?

Jan · 07-22-2007, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjbathe

This assumes that the handicapped individual can dis/embark the vessel without assistance and/or remain unassisted once on the dock.

Obviously another passenger would assist and accompany them.

KTO · 07-25-2007, 11:04 PM

I was in Wolfeboro today and coincidentally there was a handicap person getting off his boat in a wheelchair.

The thing I still don't see is how this helped him? Why couldn't he have waited in front like everything else. He certainly didn't need any instant medical attention... Not that I'm getting down on the guy for doing this, as he had every right to, but still there was no way that this helped him except to give him a free parking spot...

ApS · 07-26-2007, 05:17 AM

I qualify for a handicapped space but I can't think of any other level handicapped parking space in downtown Wolfeboro except at the docks.

Wolfeboro lost about six spaces upon the new "insider"-built condominium situated directly downtown. The condo got twelve spaces integral with their new building, but their garage spaces require tandom parking.

Huggins Hospital area has about a dozen level handicapped spaces, but when I went to Huggin's Emergency Room last month, my vehicle wouldn't have had the necessary sticker to park in one!

wildwoodfam · 07-26-2007, 07:12 AM

It would appear - by most accounts - and observations on this thread - that there is no true benefit - to having these dock spaces reserved for H boaters. There is no benefit to the handicapped person as s/he still has to figure out how to get out of the boat and up onto the dock, and then wheel her/himself down the dock, etc... The ONLY real benefit appears to be that s/he gets to dock faster than most who must wait for the docks to open up.

Its certainly an interesting conundrum!

spinker · 07-26-2007, 09:17 AM

Do you need a handicaped dock when you get on your boat???
this man is riduculous !!!

sa meredith · 07-26-2007, 09:44 AM

I have not yet had the chance to make the trip over to Wolfeboro this summer, but am I to understand that these dock spaces have in no way been modified???? That makes no sense. If they are no different than the regular spots, how can they be marked "Handicapped"? In a parking lot for automobiles, the spots are wider, and generally close to whatever building they are for. Thus making it easy for a handicapped person to go to and from the car. But if the docks are all the same, this makes no sense. Why should a boater not have to wait in line like everyone else, just because they are handicapped? And we all know that line can be long on weekends.
I think if the wait was over 15/20 minutes, and one of these spots open, I would grab it. Tell me, how would I be affecting a handicapped boater in any way????!!!

SIKSUKR · 07-26-2007, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sa meredith

I have not yet had the chance to make the trip over to Wolfeboro this summer, but am I to understand that these dock spaces have in no way been modified???? That makes no sense. If they are no different than the regular spots, how can they be marked "Handicapped"? In a parking lot for automobiles, the spots are wider, and generally close to whatever building they are for. Thus making it easy for a handicapped person to go to and from the car. But if the docks are all the same, this makes no sense. Why should a boater not have to wait in line like everyone else, just because they are handicapped? And we all know that line can be long on weekends.
I think if the wait was over 15/20 minutes, and one of these spots open, I would grab it. Tell me, how would I be affecting a handicapped boater in any way????!!!

Based on what M&M posted,You are within your rights to use those spaces if the the rest of the docks are full.

oliviernh · 07-30-2007, 08:39 AM

Sorry for the delay on this. Here is the copy I promised to post. As you can see it is a true ticket from Wolfeboro PD.

Skip · 07-30-2007, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oliviernh

Sorry for the delay on this. Here is the copy I promised to post. As you can see it is a true ticket from Wolfeboro PD.

Great pics!

The ticket specifically denotes that you violated Wolfeboro Town Ordinance WC 184-11. I do not have on-line access to that ordinance, but needless to say it would have to specifically address the reserved town docks in question.

My feeling, after reading comments attributed to the Police Chief, is that the particular ordinance cited only addresses properly signed handicap spaces on streets and parking lots.

The Town does reserve the right to modify or create a new Town ordinance allowing enforcement, but my suspicion is that the parking enforcement officer issuing this ticket has checked off an ordinance that does not yet apply.

Perhaps a Wolfeboro resident could stop by Town Hall and obtain a copy of WC 184-11 for us to peruse?

Thanks for posting the pictures, it answers a lot of questions while raising a few more!

oliviernh · 07-30-2007, 10:47 AM

...is the ordinance checked off. Good idea Skip!

White Rook · 05-08-2008, 06:08 PM

Hello Fellow Boaters,

Was there ever a final ruling or resolution to the handicap docking spaces at Wolfeboro? Does anyone know if there are any other handicap designated docking spaces across the lake? Have a great summer!

skprbob · 05-29-2008, 06:14 PM

From today's (5/29) Granite State News, page A4:

"The Wolfeboro Board of Selectmen will hold a Public Hearing on Wednesday, June 11, 2008 at 7:05 PM at the Town Hall Meeting Room, 86 South Main Street, Wolfeboro, NH for the purpose of hearing public comment on the proposed amendments to Chap 36, Sec 5, of the Town Code entitled 'Limitations on the use of Town docks, wharves, and ramps' as follows:

Q. No boats, as defined in RSA 279:2, shall be docked in that area of the Town Docks designated as accessible docking, unless such boat displays a windshield placard issued under RSA 261:88 OR displays the international symbol of access.

Docking spaces designated as accessible shall be marked in accordance with the provisions of RSA 265:73-a, by affixing signs to posts, docks, or other areas so as to be clearly visible to anyone approaching the area by boat.

The accessible docking area shall be utilized only if a person with a disability is being transported in or is operating a boat to or from the docking area.

Any person convicted under this section shall be fined not less than $250.00"

Needless to say, any boater who thinks this is idiotic should attend!

Orion · 05-29-2008, 07:31 PM

There is absolutely no logic to this bill......but I guess we've been all through that last year.

wildwoodfam · 05-29-2008, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orion

There is absolutely no logic to this bill......but I guess we've been all through that last year.

Not another thread on this issue!!! Everyone needs to go to the hearing - everyone from Wolfeboro that is - to say enough is enough!!

AC2717 · 05-30-2008, 08:02 AM

everyone that can shoudl show up to oppose this bill, of course it is on a Wednesday night. Only compromise would be for them to build more or longer docks, as this is so foolish, remeber folks one town starts, this the rest will follow. I have no problem with folks who are disabled having spaces on the the street and parking lots, but boating is above and beyond a recreation and all should be equal, if you can get into and out of a boat then it should not matter where you dock period. 50feet is not going to make a difference when walking or strolling or whatever around the town of Wolfboro. Preference should not be given. I would much rather give prefence to war vetrans injured or not because of what they do for us everyday.

Please do not blast me on this, we all need to think about the common sense of this one.

Mashugana · 05-30-2008, 09:38 AM

A docking area for handicapped boaters is a good idea. I see chair vans around but have not seen a chair boat. Is there a picture in photo post?

Islander · 07-20-2007, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

First, let me say that I think the handicapped spaces as they stand and especially how the town went about it, really stinks.

But I am really surprised about the general tone from some of the posters here. All this talk about giving an unfair advantage to the handicapped is a little disturbing. Is it really too hard to let a disabled veteran, who lost a leg in Iraq, go ahead of you in line. What about the 87 year old great-grandmother who can't take much sun. Or the 70 year old man who had a stroke and can't be out of his wheel chair for long periods. Or even the pregnant women, who may really need a bathroom now.

How many times have we been told that we should feel sorry for the taxes on million dollar waterfront. But I shouldn't worry about these people.

How many times have we been told, you're at the lake to have fun, what's the hurry. Your kids can't wait an extra 15-20 minutes for their ice cream while these people dock?

Do they give out handicapped placards for pregnancy and sun sensitivity? I don't think so. I have no problem allowing someone with an emergency, even a small emergency, to cut to the front of the line.

A 5 to 15 minute drop off or pick up zone is the best idea. Many town docks have them already.

wires1999 · 07-20-2007, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Islander

Do they give out handicapped placards for pregnancy and sun sensitivity? I don't think so. I have no problem allowing someone with an emergency, even a small emergency, to cut to the front of the line.

A 5 to 15 minute drop off or pick up zone is the best idea. Many town docks have them already.

The more I read these posts the more ridiculous it sounds. Why, why, why in the world do we need handicap spots for boats? I don't get it. Wait in line like the rest of us. Someone on the dock WILL always help you get out of your boat or help you tie up if you need it. I've been boating for 30 yrs on this lake and have always helped a fellow boater dock and have also been helped with a docking situation if I needed it. Give me a break people, this is getting out of hand. Boating IS NOT a necessity as with other places of business where I support the ADA. Come on who started this handicap dock thing. Step up and tell us the real reason, don't like to wait like the rest of us? I, we, owe you something? come on.

07-20-2007, 01:00 PM	#3
parrothead Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Merrimack, NH Posts: 132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I haven't been to the docks in question, but instead of reserving a number of slips as handicapped how about just one. The examples given on the forum for using these slips for their intended purpose, are of able bodied boaters with handicapped passengers. I would think a better idea would be to have a single slip that is near the parking lot and has some "equipment" that would actually help a handicapped individual get in and out of a boat. This could mean a lift chair or something else that could facilitate this individual in and out of a boat easier. Once the HP is assisted out of the boat then the abled bodied captain goes back in to the line to get to a dock. Handicapped parking spaces in land based parking lots are close to the stores and usually wider than a regular space. This is to cut down on the distance walked, and lift vans, or walkers, crutches, etc. Now the one sticking point is the if the handicapped person is driving the boat and then could not use the assistance provided and then dock the boat else where. But by the sounds of it for these individuals the current slips provide no more benefit than any other slip on the docks. And in fact ones closer to the parking lot would be preferrable. By the description these slips are easier to dock at than the ones closer to the shore, ie don't have pull between boats to get to the slips. Just my .02 as well. I don't think that a handicapped person should be detered from getting out and enjoying the lake and the different locations around lake. But it does sound like all these slips do is cut down on the time spent waiting in line with the rest of us. I am all for the ADA and what it can do, when used properly this just doesn't sound like one of those times. __________________ If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane

07-20-2007, 01:03 PM	#4
parrothead Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Merrimack, NH Posts: 132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jan I guess it took me too long to type my last message, so I second what Jan says. __________________ If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane

07-26-2007, 05:17 AM	#10
ApS Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Florida (Sebring & Keys), Wolfeboro Posts: 6,027 Thanks: 2,275 Thanked 786 Times in 562 Posts	Confusing, huh? I qualify for a handicapped space but I can't think of any other level handicapped parking space in downtown Wolfeboro except at the docks. Wolfeboro lost about six spaces upon the new "insider"-built condominium situated directly downtown. The condo got twelve spaces integral with their new building, but their garage spaces require tandom parking. Huggins Hospital area has about a dozen level handicapped spaces, but when I went to Huggin's Emergency Room last month, my vehicle wouldn't have had the necessary sticker to park in one! __________________ Is it "Common Sense" isn't.

07-26-2007, 07:12 AM	#11
wildwoodfam Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: North Andover, MA & summers up at the BIG lake Posts: 285 Thanks: 5 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Thats the issue - plain and simple. It would appear - by most accounts - and observations on this thread - that there is no true benefit - to having these dock spaces reserved for H boaters. There is no benefit to the handicapped person as s/he still has to figure out how to get out of the boat and up onto the dock, and then wheel her/himself down the dock, etc... The ONLY real benefit appears to be that s/he gets to dock faster than most who must wait for the docks to open up. Its certainly an interesting conundrum!

07-26-2007, 09:44 AM	#13
sa meredith Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 986 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 32 Thanked 352 Times in 137 Posts	wait in line I have not yet had the chance to make the trip over to Wolfeboro this summer, but am I to understand that these dock spaces have in no way been modified???? That makes no sense. If they are no different than the regular spots, how can they be marked "Handicapped"? In a parking lot for automobiles, the spots are wider, and generally close to whatever building they are for. Thus making it easy for a handicapped person to go to and from the car. But if the docks are all the same, this makes no sense. Why should a boater not have to wait in line like everyone else, just because they are handicapped? And we all know that line can be long on weekends. I think if the wait was over 15/20 minutes, and one of these spots open, I would grab it. Tell me, how would I be affecting a handicapped boater in any way????!!!

07-20-2007, 10:25 AM	#1
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	First, let me say that I think the handicapped spaces as they stand and especially how the town went about it, really stinks. But I am really surprised about the general tone from some of the posters here. All this talk about giving an unfair advantage to the handicapped is a little disturbing. Is it really too hard to let a disabled veteran, who lost a leg in Iraq, go ahead of you in line. What about the 87 year old great-grandmother who can't take much sun. Or the 70 year old man who had a stroke and can't be out of his wheel chair for long periods. Or even the pregnant women, who may really need a bathroom now. How many times have we been told that we should feel sorry for the taxes on million dollar waterfront. But I shouldn't worry about these people. How many times have we been told, you're at the lake to have fun, what's the hurry. Your kids can't wait an extra 15-20 minutes for their ice cream while these people dock?

07-25-2007, 11:04 PM	#9
KTO Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Meredith, NH Posts: 391 Thanks: 30 Thanked 117 Times in 26 Posts	I was in Wolfeboro today and coincidentally there was a handicap person getting off his boat in a wheelchair. The thing I still don't see is how this helped him? Why couldn't he have waited in front like everything else. He certainly didn't need any instant medical attention... Not that I'm getting down on the guy for doing this, as he had every right to, but still there was no way that this helped him except to give him a free parking spot...

07-26-2007, 09:17 AM	#12
spinker Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 19 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Do you need a handicaped dock when you get on your boat??? this man is riduculous !!!

07-30-2007, 10:47 AM	#17
oliviernh Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Hampton and Rattlesnake Island Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	Actually it's WC 164-11 ...is the ordinance checked off. Good idea Skip!

05-08-2008, 06:08 PM	#18
White Rook Deceased Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Salem NH Posts: 101 Thanks: 51 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Handicap Docking Spaces -- Final Ruling? Hello Fellow Boaters, Was there ever a final ruling or resolution to the handicap docking spaces at Wolfeboro? Does anyone know if there are any other handicap designated docking spaces across the lake? Have a great summer! __________________ "Checkmate King II ... This Is White Rook .... Over"

05-29-2008, 06:14 PM	#19
skprbob Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: 19 Mile Bay Posts: 147 Thanks: 0 Thanked 90 Times in 29 Posts	Handicap Dock public hearing From today's (5/29) Granite State News, page A4: "The Wolfeboro Board of Selectmen will hold a Public Hearing on Wednesday, June 11, 2008 at 7:05 PM at the Town Hall Meeting Room, 86 South Main Street, Wolfeboro, NH for the purpose of hearing public comment on the proposed amendments to Chap 36, Sec 5, of the Town Code entitled 'Limitations on the use of Town docks, wharves, and ramps' as follows: Q. No boats, as defined in RSA 279:2, shall be docked in that area of the Town Docks designated as accessible docking, unless such boat displays a windshield placard issued under RSA 261:88 OR displays the international symbol of access. Docking spaces designated as accessible shall be marked in accordance with the provisions of RSA 265:73-a, by affixing signs to posts, docks, or other areas so as to be clearly visible to anyone approaching the area by boat. The accessible docking area shall be utilized only if a person with a disability is being transported in or is operating a boat to or from the docking area. Any person convicted under this section shall be fined not less than $250.00" Needless to say, any boater who thinks this is idiotic should attend!

05-29-2008, 07:31 PM	#20
Orion Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: MA Posts: 914 Thanks: 602 Thanked 193 Times in 91 Posts	That's just plain nuts! There is absolutely no logic to this bill......but I guess we've been all through that last year.

05-30-2008, 08:02 AM	#22
AC2717 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Maynard, MA & Paugus Bay Posts: 2,587 Thanks: 756 Thanked 356 Times in 268 Posts	Well everyone that can shoudl show up to oppose this bill, of course it is on a Wednesday night. Only compromise would be for them to build more or longer docks, as this is so foolish, remeber folks one town starts, this the rest will follow. I have no problem with folks who are disabled having spaces on the the street and parking lots, but boating is above and beyond a recreation and all should be equal, if you can get into and out of a boat then it should not matter where you dock period. 50feet is not going to make a difference when walking or strolling or whatever around the town of Wolfboro. Preference should not be given. I would much rather give prefence to war vetrans injured or not because of what they do for us everyday. Please do not blast me on this, we all need to think about the common sense of this one. __________________ Capt. of the "No Worries"

05-30-2008, 09:38 AM	#23
Mashugana Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 73 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	HP dock A docking area for handicapped boaters is a good idea. I see chair vans around but have not seen a chair boat. Is there a picture in photo post?