Boating Safety Certificate Question

[sa meredith]

Am I correct in assuming that if a certificate was obtained via the internet, when it was still acceptable, it is still valid?

[Skip]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

Am I correct in assuming that if a certificate was obtained via the internet, when it was still acceptable, it is still valid?

You are correct, previous certificates obtained prior to this year online are valid.

And therein lies the rub. While most certificates (cards) list the source by stating online, I have seen other cards that were obtained online and have no such verbiage.

Also, some but not all of the other entities still issuing certificates via the online exam may or may not annotate the source of the test. And unlike the extensive nationwide online motor vehicle database available to all LEOs, there is no such nationwide database currently in place for marine patrol officers.

Again we find ourselves with another NH boating regulation strong on intention but weak in its ability to be fairly and evenly enforced.

[Coolbreeze]

Spoke with Glendale today, they stated that a NASBLA certificate from another state DOES and IS accepted to boat on the lake. "Carry the certificate or card with you while boating" were the intructions given. I had my sister follow up to double check with this information and everything Glendale said was indeed repeated to her during another call to Glendale. We have the names of the individuals giving this info from Glendale in case we get stopped.

See you on the lake!

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by Coolbreeze

Spoke with Glendale today, they stated that a NASBLA certificate from another state DOES and IS accepted to boat on the lake. "Carry the certificate or card with you while boating" were the intructions given. I had my sister follow up to double check with this information and everything Glendale said was indeed repeated to her during another call to Glendale. We have the names of the individuals giving this info from Glendale in case we get stopped.

See you on the lake!

Yes that's what I've heard but isn't the SOURCE the thing that's in question here?? Does NH accept a NASBLA certificate from another state where the SOURCE is the INTERNET?? I think that's what Skip (bless his heart for all his wonderful posts) is trying to educate us on. Knowing how I interpret things though I may be all wrong!!

[Skip]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

Yes that's what I've heard but isn't the SOURCE the thing that's in question here?? Does NH accept a NASBLA certificate from another state where the SOURCE is the INTERNET?? I think that's what Skip (bless his heart for all his wonderful posts) is trying to educate us on. Knowing how I interpret things though I may be all wrong!!

The RSA is quite clear, any certificate including a NASBLA certificate is good in NH if the issuance of the certificate meets or exceeds the standards required for a certificate to be issued in this State.

The problem is it is nearly impossible, in the field, to determine with accuracy whether the issung State or internet agency meets NH's newest standard, that being that online tests are not allowed.

Regardless of what the RSA states, if it is the policy of the NHMP to accept any certificate or license that is NASBLA approved then the actuality is you shouldn't receive a summons. However, after many many years of dealing with these issues I would advise anyone pursuing such a course of action follow Coolbreeze's efforts and obtain the name and title along with date & time of the individual in Glendale giving you the OK.

As a final note remember, this advice only applies to an out of State boater who has obtained a NASBLA certified certificate since the first of this year and took a test online.

Giving the preceding paragraph I believe we are probably talking about a very small number of potential boaters.

Thanks for the plug KC!

[Bear Islander]

Skip

The number may be small now but it is going to grow. The word is getting around that the easiest way to get a certificate is to get one online from boat-ed.com but take it from another state.

I am holding a Massachusetts certificate just recieved by a family member. It was done online from boat-ed but there is nothing on it to indicate that.

It does say "The person on the reverse side of this card has completed a boating safety course which is approved by the National Association of State Boating Law Administrators and recognized by the United States Coast Guard."

Just because NH now requires proctored exams for NH certificates does not necessarily mean that out of state certificates must be proctored. You are reading to much into the "meets or exceeds the requirements of this subdivision" language. And the MP have a long history of interpreting things the way they want.

[NightWing]

CERTIFICATES ACCEPTED:



ISSUED BY STATE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE

ISSUED BY U.S. COAST GUARD AUXILIARY

ISSUED BY U.S. POWER SQUADRON (1978 AND UP)

ISSUED BY ANOTHER STATE AND NASBLA APPROVED

COMMERCIAL BOAT OPERATOR LICENSE ISSUED BY THE STATE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE OR U.S. COAST GUARD (THAT HAS NOT EXPIRED)

NOTE: NOT APPROVED BY ANY OF THE ABOVE, ISSUED BY ONLY!!!!!

ONLY ONE APPROVED ONLINE PROVIDER= WWW.BOAT-ED.COM (CARDS ARE ISSUED BY THE STATE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE)

(Certificates issued after Jan 1, 2007 from The Boat-Ed.com system are NOT accepted in NH.) Not being enforced at this time

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

...Just because NH now requires proctored exams for NH certificates does not necessarily mean that out of state certificates must be proctored. You are reading to much into the "meets or exceeds the requirements of this subdivision" language. And the MP have a long history of interpreting things the way they want...

I totally agree, nothing in the NH law can require another State to require proctored exams. Other States and some online organizations that are NASBLA approved are still allowing the final exam to be taken online.

Where the rub is that when NH changed the law this year requiring proctored exams thay did not take in to account this factor. Therefore the requirement "meets or exceeds" is virtually impossible to enforce as there is no reliable way in the field to verify final test status from another State.

And as I said previously, the point is mute if the official policy of the NHMP is to accept all NASBLA certificates regardless of whether or not they meet the requirements of RSA 270-D:15.

However, if the policy of the State is to accept any other State issued NASBLA certificate then the law should be ammended to state just that, to remove the possibility of any ambiguity.

While researching this I am finding possibly yet another glaring loophole. Where NH motor vehicle code clearly requires a NH resident to obtain and maintain a NH driver's license, I have yet to find such a similar requirement with the NH boat-ed certificate. I still have some more searching to do and I am sure one of the fine folks over at NHMP can point me to the requirement. But what if such a requirement does not exist, and indeed anyone from NH could search around for a certificate from another State or organization with an online final exam?

I am still searching and will have an answer by the end of today...

Kind of reminds me of the overnight mooring debacle....

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

In addition to everything that Skip (thank you Skip) has posted here are two more items to add:

From the BoatUS Foundation boating course page. The course is NASBLA approved and at the bottom of the page just under TWO NASBLA emblems is the following statement:

The Online Boating Course is approved to meet the basic boater education requirements in certain states.
Be sure to check the regulations in your state. States such as NY, NJ, PA, CT, RI, NH, MD, AND OTHERS
do not accept this course for their education requirements.

From the NASBLA web page:

New Hampshire
No person born on or after the dates provided in this section shall operate a motorized vessel with any type of power motor in excess of 25 horsepower on the public waters of this state without first obtaining a certificate of boating safety education. Only NASBLA-approved New Hampshire and other state certificates are accepted. No certificates issued by private companies are recognized.

No matter how large your font is Nightwing, the info is not up to date. Certificates issued after Jan 1, 2007 from The Boat-Ed.com system are NOT accepted in NH.

As I recall, the test method was also considered. It made a difference who/how the test was administered and who proctored the exam (I can't find the reference right now). As Skip mentioned, how does one know how your NASBLA exam was proctored?

When the Boater Safety Certificate issue first came up in NH I asked MP about the BoatUS course. They said it was accepted. I convinced my daughter to take the course and test. I took her certificate in hand to Marine Patrol HQ and asked if it would be accepted. They brought it all around the office, upstairs too. Everyone at MP HQ agreed that it would satisfy the NH requirements. Then around February 2002 I heard that the new rules were refined to exclude the BoatUS certificate due to content issues. I again asked MP and got different answers...finally got the definitive word that, NASBLA approval alone was not enough to be accepted in NH and the BoatUS cert was not sufficient for NH. My daughter was not happy about taking another course and test. She didn't care what type of macerater our boat needs or how far from shore we need to be to empty our holding tank or other non-Winnie related info.

There are many BoatUS members on Lake Winnie and I'm sure that more than a few have the BoatUS boater education certificate.

[jrc]

This is one of my pet peeves with the education certification. Imagine if you're planning a vacation trip to NH. You do your research and you still don't know if you can boat here. So you go to Lake George, or Sebago. Maybe that's the goal?

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que

No matter how large your font is Nightwing, the info is not up to date. Certificates issued after Jan 1, 2007 from The Boat-Ed.com system are NOT accepted in NH.

Oversight. Correction added. Thank you.

[hilltopper]

This confusion had me emailing Marine Patrol and the NH Boating Education office earlier this year. I had taken the online course in 2003 under the state of VT link. According to the rules as I understood them, I was fine. According to the NH Boating Education office, I am fine. Because of all this confusion, I keep a print out of the email on my boat in case there is a Marine Patrol officer that is as confused as everyone else.

[Airwaves]

I just wanted to chime in and ask for a source material for a post.

NightWing, in your large font post you wrote that certificates issued by the US Power Squadron (1978 AND UP) are accepted.

Where did you see that?

After reading the post I went on line to read not only the section on exemptions, but all the sections regarding boater education and while I found specific mention of USCGAux and USPS certificates being valid there is no mention of any date being attached to either USCGAux or USPS boating certificates.

Both are valid, NASBLA approved and are recognized in NH.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que

...Certificates issued after Jan 1, 2007 from The Boat-Ed.com system are NOT accepted in NH.

Skipper

Most of what you post is correct, but your conclusion is false. The Boat-Ed.com site is NASBLA Approved. And Boat-Ed is NOT a private company.

If you go to Boat-Ed today and take the Massachusetts test you will receive in the mail an official Massachusetts Boater Education Certificate that is NASBLA and Coast Guard approved. The New Hampshire Marine Patrol have confirmed repeatedly that such a certificate is valid in NH.

I do understand that this situation is in conflict with the way some people interpret the new RSA.

An out of state on-line Boat-Ed test will give you a certificate considered valid in NH.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

...An out of state on-line Boat-Ed test will give you a certificate considered valid in NH...

Only if the on-line test was taken and passed prior to January 1st of this year. Any entity that offers an on-line test after January 1st of this year does not "meets or exceeds the requirements of this subdivision" according to the exact wording of RSA 270-D:15 and thus the certificate is not valid in New Hampshire. There is no "room for interpretation....the verbiage is quite clear!

Now if the NHMP is looking the other way because they have in front of them an RSA that they cannot enforce that is truly a debacle because it encourages folks to willfully ignore the law.

Lets try an analogy that is simpler to understand. The State of New Hampshire usually accepts driver licenses from all other States and many other countries as valid. However, you still must meet this State's minimal requirements to drive even with an out of state license. Therefore, if you come from a State where it is legal to drive at 15 and you have a valid license to do so, that license is not valid in New Hampshire as it does not "meet or exceed" this State's requirements.

Finally, I am still researching the Administrative Rules and the applicable RSAs to determine if a New Hampshire resident is required to have a NH issued certificate. However, given the way RSA 270-D:15 is clearly written it does not matter what State you hold the certificate from as long as the State (or entity) that issued you the certificate met New Hampshire's standards as of the date of issue, which includes no on-line exams after the beginning of this year.

But hey, you could be absolutely correct! Could you kindly point me in the direction of the applicable RSA or Administrative Rule that states that any NASBLA certificate must be accepted in New Hampshire....and no, the Boater's Guide does not count! Also, could you please PM me (if you prefer) the name of at least one NHMP employee that has officially stated, or point me in the direction of a policy statement ot press release, that confirms that all NASBLA certificates will be honored in the State?

Thanks....

[tis]

To be honest, I don't know if even THEY know exactly what the rules are. We spoke to a couple of MP people when this first all came about and they seemed to have different answers. They finally decided if you took the test online, it was ok until you got stopped. If you got stopped, you had to go to the class. (Course since then, the online- at least in NH- is not adequate.)Again, it all goes back to-TOO MANY LAWS. Not even the officials understand them all. I have to tell you. the too close to shore-150' no wake rule has been brokien by here this summer-we think worse than ever, and supposedly most people have their certificates by now. Makes you wonder.

[Bear Islander]

Skip

I understand your argument completely, and I'm not saying you're wrong. However many people come to this site for practical information, not to argue the fine points of the law.

My statement is correct!

An out of state on-line Boat-Ed test will give you a certificate considered valid in NH.

If you go to Boat-Ed and get a Massachusetts certificate, you will have in your hand a certificate acceptable to the New Hampshire Marine Patrol.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

....If you go to Boat-Ed and get a Massachusetts certificate, you will have in your hand a certificate acceptable to the New Hampshire Marine Patrol...

We both agree what the law says. You are advising folks that if they break that law it will be ok.

I think it is imperative then that you provide some verifiable proof of your claim before someone gets a summons for following your advice!

Unfortunately it is the "fine point of the law" every time that lands you in front of a judge!

One final point that has not been discussed is civil liability in the case of an accident. While you may indeed be correct that the NHMP is looking the other way, if you are operating under a certificate that does not meet the requirements of RSA 270-D:15 and are involved in an accident I can assure you that there is a personal injury lawyer out there that will ensure you pay the appropriate penalty regardless of the NHMP position.

Sidebar to the NHMP.....I apologize in advance for making any assumptions that the NHMP is ignoring or not enforcing RSA 270-D:15. There has been no offer of proof or verifiable statements that the NHMP is not enforcing this statute as intended by the General Court and my points made are for argument's sake only.

[Bear Islander]

Skip

You say they are breaking the law, that is your opinion based on your reading of the RSA.

The New Hampshire Marine Patrol says they are not breaking the law.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Skip

You say they are breaking the law, that is your opinion based on your reading of the RSA.

The New Hampshire Marine Patrol says they are not breaking the law.

Who have you spoken to at the NHMP that I can call to verify your claim?

[Islander]

I called the MP about this last week. They said if you have an out of state cert. with NSBLA on it you are good to go. You people that don't believe this should call the MP yourselves, they are very nice.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Islander

I called the MP about this last week. They said if you have an out of state cert. with NSBLA on it you are good to go. You people that don't believe this should call the MP yourselves, they are very nice.

Hmmm....perhaps this is the same source at NHMP that told you last year that "technically" R/C controlled boats needed to be registered in New Hampshire???

[idigtractors]

Originally Posted by Islander

I called the MP about this last week. They said if you have an out of state cert. with NSBLA on it you are good to go. You people that don't believe this should call the MP yourselves, they are very nice.

When you asked the question, did you state that you were referring to on-line certification not class room testing???

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Skipper

Most of what you post is correct, but your conclusion is false. The Boat-Ed.com site is NASBLA Approved. And Boat-Ed is NOT a private company.

Bear Islander, I believe that ALL of what I have posted is correct - but I certainly am not perfect (just ask my wife ).

Boat-Ed.com is NOT a private company.
Boat-Ed.com is a private organization.

From the Boat-Ed web site page

"Boat Ed is a private organization dedicated to providing boater safety courses and certification and publishing boater education materials. ..."

Now the question is, is a private organization the same as a private company? I don't know ... but I think so. That makes any state Boat-Ed.com certificate issued on or after 1-1-07 unacceptable in NH.

Again, many thanks to Skip for his research and excellent information.

I believe that everyone here is well intentioned and really want to understand and follow the rules - if we could just figure them out.