Meredith SB-2 petition

[Irish mist]

Originally Posted by tis

I agree with you FLL. You get a lot more people voting and not just the special interests in a SB2 town than just town meeting. Some of the police, fire, teachers, etc. don't like it because they cannot sway the vote quiet as easily by packing the meetings. Hopefully the public will make a point to be more informed so they will know what they are voting for. Good luck, I hope you get it.
Someone brought to my attention a listing of the top schools and I was surprised that Gilford didn't rate that well. I thought Gilford spent a lot of money on their schools. Carpenter in Wolfeboro was number 8 I think and Tuftonboro was just a couple behind. I shouldn't quote numbers because I am not sure, but they were right up there.

SB2 is a good thing. I've heard that Gilford schools have been slipping recently, but I don't know how true that really is.

[vrrooom]

I am a long time Gilfrod resident >25 years, and support the SB2 method of managing spending by plebisite. Before SB 2, the town meetings were dominated by special interest groups (supporters of some particular spending item) who dominated the meeting and intimidated by rudeness anyone who was not seen as supporting of their interests (personal or family salaries as town employees,facilities,other projects). I do not know how other towns meetings are run, but having sat thru several at Gilford, I would be surprised if they are much different.

Gilford schools, stand as proof that you can't buy good education. Gilford is one of the top 10% of the districts in spending per pupil, and yet the preformance (standard tests) indicates mediocure results. Our school administration and leadership would be sacked in a commercial world, where failure to perform and wasting money is not acceptable. Unless Gilford gets new leadership, we will continue to spend and waste more on compensation thus continuing to reward poor performance.

Education presents a one time opportunity, you can't do it over, so you must do it well the first and only time.

[SAMIAM]

Wish we'd had SB2 in Meredith before we built the police station and community center......each of them would serve cities 10 times the size of Meredith.

[wifi]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Wish we'd had SB2 in Meredith before we built the police station and community center......each of them would serve cities 10 times the size of Meredith.

Next on the list is Moultonboro, they already have their gigantic new town hall, new library and new police fire station, now they are pushing hard for a community center.

Wonder if Moultonboro would consider renting from Meredith?

Dreamer, me....

[ITD]

Your choices in Meredith under SB2 for something like a new police station will be whether the chief's door has right hand hinges or left hand hinges.

Town meeting is one of the purest forms of democracy in this country. There is nothing so sweet as an article appropriating $10,000 being amended to $7000 by the citizens on the floor of a town meeting. With schemes like SB2, you lose this ability, subjugating your rights to a few elected people, who will absolutely be influenced by special interests and their interpretation of the "greater good".

Schemes like SB2 are dreamed up by Massachusetts transplants who were driven out of their home state because it has gotten so expensive, yet are only comfortable with a bunch of criminal legislators spending their money. They are too lazy to get involved themselves, and get upset when they see their neighbors doing it at town meeting.

Happy New Year

[SAMIAM]

Yuh...right,ITD.......you mean there is nothing like 20 voters (all with something to gain) approving a 3 million dollar project at 11;00 pm,when most working folks have gone to bed.
GET OUT THERE FLL.....we need ya' buddy

[Irish mist]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Yuh...right,ITD.......you mean there is nothing like 20 voters (all with something to gain) approving a 3 million dollar project at 11;00 pm,when most working folks have gone to bed.
GET OUT THERE FLL.....we need ya' buddy

Could not have said it any better.

[camp guy]

I live in Wolfeboro, and Wolfeboro is an SB-2 town. I lived elswhere for 25plus years in a town meeting vote town, and I lived in Wolfeboro when it was a town meeting vote town, and there are pluses and minuses to the SB-2 form of voting. The opportunity for more people to vote, the day time voting, the absentee voting - all of these are pluses, but the biggest minus is the loss of discussion about an article, and the ability to do someting based on that discussion. I know, I know, there is a deliberative session several days before the vote, and each article can be discussed then, and some changes can be made, but nothing beats a well-moderated discussion right at the time of the vote. You know, in politics it isn't always what is WRITTEN in the Article, sometimes it is WHO is behind the Article. In the town I lived in away from Wolfeboro, the town meeting moderator would require a sponsor of any article to speak to the point of that article as the first speaker, then others could discuss it back and forth. If a sponsor didn't speak, the moderator would rule the article out of order and go on to the next article. At the deliberative sessions there is usually some explanation, but not the good old discussion you need to really find out the WHO behind an article.

So, if you are activly trying to go SB-2, be prepared to give up some of the privileges of discussion you have now.

[Irish mist]

Originally Posted by camp guy

I live in Wolfeboro, and Wolfeboro is an SB-2 town. I lived elswhere for 25plus years in a town meeting vote town, and I lived in Wolfeboro when it was a town meeting vote town, and there are pluses and minuses to the SB-2 form of voting. The opportunity for more people to vote, the day time voting, the absentee voting - all of these are pluses, but the biggest minus is the loss of discussion about an article, and the ability to do someting based on that discussion. I know, I know, there is a deliberative session several days before the vote, and each article can be discussed then, and some changes can be made, but nothing beats a well-moderated discussion right at the time of the vote. You know, in politics it isn't always what is WRITTEN in the Article, sometimes it is WHO is behind the Article. In the town I lived in away from Wolfeboro, the town meeting moderator would require a sponsor of any article to speak to the point of that article as the first speaker, then others could discuss it back and forth. If a sponsor didn't speak, the moderator would rule the article out of order and go on to the next article. At the deliberative sessions there is usually some explanation, but not the good old discussion you need to really find out the WHO behind an article.

So, if you are activly trying to go SB-2, be prepared to give up some of the privileges of discussion you have now.

You make a good point, but the problem is that there are aggressive factions in most of our small towns that have decided that by building mega-buildings (police stations, fire stations, community centers, elderly-centers, schools, libraries) they can increase the number of personal (them) and build up a voting block that is hard to defeat. The towns are being buried under pension costs & the costs associated with running these buildings. SB-2 came about because of these issues. Anyone who remembers what happened in town-meeting in Bow several years ago understands why SB-2 is popular with the voters. And as an addendum: Almost every town that has voted in SB-2 in NH has hardly ever voted it out again. it's imperfect, I grant you that, but once put into practice, folks seem to like it.

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by camp guy

I live in Wolfeboro, and Wolfeboro is an SB-2 town. I lived elswhere for 25plus years in a town meeting vote town, and I lived in Wolfeboro when it was a town meeting vote town, and there are pluses and minuses to the SB-2 form of voting. The opportunity for more people to vote, the day time voting, the absentee voting - all of these are pluses, but the biggest minus is the loss of discussion about an article, and the ability to do someting based on that discussion. I know, I know, there is a deliberative session several days before the vote, and each article can be discussed then, and some changes can be made, but nothing beats a well-moderated discussion right at the time of the vote. You know, in politics it isn't always what is WRITTEN in the Article, sometimes it is WHO is behind the Article. In the town I lived in away from Wolfeboro, the town meeting moderator would require a sponsor of any article to speak to the point of that article as the first speaker, then others could discuss it back and forth. If a sponsor didn't speak, the moderator would rule the article out of order and go on to the next article. At the deliberative sessions there is usually some explanation, but not the good old discussion you need to really find out the WHO behind an article.

So, if you are activly trying to go SB-2, be prepared to give up some of the privileges of discussion you have now.

Sorry but I don't understand your point about finding out who is behind an article...

Here's my case:
Alton is SB2 and the deliberative session consists of the town's Warrants, the school districts' Warrants (Alton has two school districts), and the petition Warrant articles. The petition Warrants are presented, usually, by the parties who are promoting it. For example, last year we had a petition Warrant article for a social worker/drug and alcohol counselor for the high school. The petition Warrant article was well presented and thoroughly discussed. I can't think of a single Warrant that we didn't have at least some idea who was behind it...

Additionally, there's room for public input at the deliberative session and discussion for each Warrant article. The town's budget committee reviews and recommends the Warrant articles, as does the town's selectmen. They present the Warrant articles to the public at the deliberative session and invite the public to ask questions or discuss the article. I've seen a vote called on a Warrant article or other budget item, for that matter, when members of the public still wanted to bump their gums about it, but mostly it's very fair and I felt that people weren't unjustly cut off.

I guess what I'm saying here is that there's room for input - you just have be ready to play by the new rules to get your point in there at the right time...

p.s.
Please don't take it that I'm being disrespectful to you or your point of view - I'm not. It's just that I see how it works in Alton with the town and the school districts and although it's "different" I do prefer it to the town meeting format and feel that we have more to gain as being SB2 than we did by not going that route - that's all...

[camp guy]

To Argies Wife: absolutely no disrespect taken, as a metter of fact, you made a very clear and accurate explanation of the process. My only concern is that some articles are written in such a way that knowing the people (WHO) can help clarify the article. All towns have "groups" with agendas, and in all towns not everyone knows everyone, but it does help understand the intent of an article if you know the people involved.

[snowbird]

Voter participation has increased a huge amount in Gilford since we passed SB2 two or three years ago. Sometimes as many as 2,000 votes are cast on an issue, versus a few hundred in the old town meeting format. Democracy at work! Meredith voters would be well advised to take advantage of this opportunity.

[camp guy]

A side issue to all of this, and maybe one not for this thread, is the issues faced by the non-voter eligible people who live in some of the local towns. In Wolfeboro, for instance, some serious road/utility infrastructure work had to be done on Sewall Rd (a road along the edge of Wolfeboro Bay and therefore very high property values) but many of the people who live on Sewall Road are not voter-eligible due to their resident status. Unfortunately, because many people who don't live on Sewall Rd don't really care about that road, and most of these people are voters, it was very difficult and costly to get the work done over about a three year period. This is anecdotal, but the issue is, some of the people who pay the most have no vote (say) in the use of the money they pay. Again, I know, I know, they choose to live in these spots, and they know the trade-offs, but it's too bad there isn't a way to let them participate in the town government. The irony of the whole situation, at least in Wolfeboro, is that some of these non-voters are extremely active in volunteer work within the town while they are resident. Sort of one-sided, lop-sided. This is probably the case in many of the towns bordering water bodies in New Hampshire.

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by camp guy

To Argies Wife: absolutely no disrespect taken, as a metter of fact, you made a very clear and accurate explanation of the process. My only concern is that some articles are written in such a way that knowing the people (WHO) can help clarify the article. All towns have "groups" with agendas, and in all towns not everyone knows everyone, but it does help understand the intent of an article if you know the people involved.

And I totally agree with you on that one... but from my experience, the ambiguously worded Warrant articles are generally those that there written by high-priced lawyers with little regard for the layman. It's almost like they don't WANT you to know what it is you're voting on. However, here in Alton it seems like it's always the same ten people who are "activists" in the town - you can pretty much tell who's going to be presenting something even before they speak! Likewise, it's the same ten people who ask a lot of questions (God bless 'em!) and get to the root of what's really before the people to vote on.

Love my town~!

And thanks for not taking my initial post wrong - it can be a challenge to communicate in this format (non-verbal) and I didn't want to step on any toes...

[summersux]

Originally Posted by ITD

Schemes like SB2 are dreamed up by Massachusetts transplants who were driven out of their home state because it has gotten so expensive, yet are only comfortable with a bunch of criminal legislators spending their money. They are too lazy to get involved themselves, and get upset when they see their neighbors doing it at town meeting.

You hit the nail right on the head good job man.

PS. A lot of people don't like to admit that they are lazy thus will not like your comment.

[Irish mist]

Originally Posted by summersux

You hit the nail right on the head good job man.

PS. A lot of people don't like to admit that they are lazy thus will not like your comment.

SB-2 has its good & bad points, but it's a valid way to run town government. Where SB-2 has been instituted it has thrived. Very, very few NH towns have voted SB-2 out after adopting it. As for SB-2 being some Massachusetts-scam......show me some documentation for that ?

IMO SB-2 works best in towns with fast growing populations......in smaller towns, not so much.

[summersux]

Originally Posted by Irish mist

SB-2 has its good & bad points, but it's a valid way to run town government. Where SB-2 has been instituted it has thrived. Very, very few NH towns have voted SB-2 out after adopting it. As for SB-2 being some Massachusetts-scam......show me some documentation for that ?

IMO SB-2 works best in towns with fast growing populations......in smaller towns, not so much.

Your the one who said it you back it up. I don't believe that. But this is interesting and the time frame is right. Link

Originally Posted by Dave Michaels, The Dallas Morning News

Last modified 1/5/2008 - 12:34 pm
Originally created 010508

New residents from Massachusetts change New Hampshire political landscape


By Dave Michaels, The Dallas Morning News

MANCHESTER, N.H. - New Hampshire, once among the reddest states in the country, has undergone an elephantine demographic shift since its last hotly contested presidential primary, with an influx of new voters that could turn the outcome of both races Tuesday.


The Granite State gained 207,000 new residents between 2001 and 2005 - including about 90,000 who moved over the border from Massachusetts, according to a recent report by the University of New Hampshire's Carsey Institute. During the same period, 188,000 people left the state.

[Irish mist]

Originally Posted by summersux

Your the one who said it you back it up. I don't believe that. But this is interesting and the time frame is right. Link

Back what up ? You show me some stats that people from Massachusetts are moving to NH......no kidding. They are also moving here from NY & NJ & and the Mid Atlantic states, and just about everywhere else.....so what ? Where in your article does it show THESE people started the SB-2 movement ? A poster said people from Massachusetts have started the SB-2 movement, and I asked for some information on that, some facts.....your information about the changing demographics of NH is well known, but it contains no information about SB-2.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Irish mist

SB-2 has its good & bad points, but it's a valid way to run town government. Where SB-2 has been instituted it has thrived. Very, very few NH towns have voted SB-2 out after adopting it. As for SB-2 being some Massachusetts-scam......show me some documentation for that ?

IMO SB-2 works best in towns with fast growing populations......in smaller towns, not so much.

Come on Irish Mist, I said scheme, not scam. I don't think SB-2 is a scam. I also said "Schemes like SB2 are dreamed up by Massachusetts transplants who were driven out of their home state because it has gotten so expensive", I stand behind that statement, although maybe I should have said "Massachusetts and other choke-hold blue state transplant". You have to admit, the political leanings of NH are changing. As to whether Massachusetts transplants or NH old timers wrote SB-2, it really doesn't matter, I certainly don't care.

What I do see, is the purest form of Democracy being phased out due to laziness and apathy. Schemes like SB2 add a layer of bureaucracy to the voting process, removing the spirited debate and change on the fly afforded by a town meeting. For the convenience of voting yes or no to one choice on election day, you give up the chance to get together with your neighbors and truly hammer out and fix or reject an article. Yes, I understand about meetings for articles and hearings. As far as SB2 being the answer to "special interests", I seriously doubt it.

[Irish mist]

Originally Posted by ITD

Come on Irish Mist, I said scheme, not scam. I don't think SB-2 is a scam. I also said "Schemes like SB2 are dreamed up by Massachusetts transplants who were driven out of their home state because it has gotten so expensive", I stand behind that statement, although maybe I should have said "Massachusetts and other choke-hold blue state transplant". You have to admit, the political leanings of NH are changing. As to whether Massachusetts transplants or NH old timers wrote SB-2, it really doesn't matter, I certainly don't care.

What I do see, is the purest form of Democracy being phased out due to laziness and apathy. Schemes like SB2 add a layer of bureaucracy to the voting process, removing the spirited debate and change on the fly afforded by a town meeting. For the convenience of voting yes or no to one choice on election day, you give up the chance to get together with your neighbors and truly hammer out and fix or reject an article. Yes, I understand about meetings for articles and hearings. As far as SB2 being the answer to "special interests", I seriously doubt it.

There are studies that show that the majority of Massachusetts transplants are conservative, but that's up for debate. I was just concerned that you were painting everyone from away with a broad-brush. I share your concern about how NH is going blue......but I don't think SB-2 is a major problem. Folks who vote it in seem to love it. I certainly think towns with small populations don't need SB-2.

But larger, fast growing towns seem to adopt to SB-2 very well. Lol, if I had my way.....I would build a wall in Salem and stop all this growth but I'm afraid that's not to be. Every town has the right to vote SB-2 out......and I trust my fellow citizens to do just that if it is not serving them well.

You can't tell me that town-meeting does not have some serious flaws ? We have all heard of those late night votes.....and those"factions" that form. President Madison warned of factions, and town-meeting can really devolve into that situation from my experience. I like that folks have the option of SB-2. It's just another tool to help citizens get involved in government.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Irish mist

There are studies that show that the majority of Massachusetts transplants are conservative, but that's up for debate. I was just concerned that you were painting everyone from away with a broad-brush. I share your concern about how NH is going blue......but I don't think SB-2 is a major problem. Folks who vote it in seem to love it. I certainly think towns with small populations don't need SB-2.

But larger, fast growing towns seem to adopt to SB-2 very well. Lol, if I had my way.....I would build a wall in Salem and stop all this growth but I'm afraid that's not to be. Every town has the right to vote SB-2 out......and I trust my fellow citizens to do just that if it is not serving them well.

You can't tell me that town-meeting does not have some serious flaws ? We have all heard of those late night votes.....and those"factions" that form. President Madison warned of factions, and town-meeting can really devolve into that situation from my experience. I like that folks have the option of SB-2. It's just another tool to help citizens get involved in government.

I really don't think town meeting has serious flaws. The flaw lies with the voters who don't show up and/or don't care. When 20 out of 1000 voters show up that is recipe for disaster. When 500 or even 250 out of 1000 show up, the shenanigans are quickly squashed.

If you don't care, your pocket will get picked. Come to think of it, if you care and beg for more taxes, you will be turned upside down and shaken until all the money falls out of your pockets. Once the Genie is out of the bottle, it is nearly impossible to put back in. Look at the Mass. income tax.

As far as transplants go, most of the ones I know personally are flaming liberals. I try to make it a point when they complain that they are bringing to NH exactly what they ran away from in Mass., high taxes, they never get it though.....

[Irish mist]

Originally Posted by ITD

I really don't think town meeting has serious flaws. The flaw lies with the voters who don't show up and/or don't care. When 20 out of 1000 voters show up that is recipe for disaster. When 500 or even 250 out of 1000 show up, the shenanigans are quickly squashed.

If you don't care, your pocket will get picked. Come to think of it, if you care and beg for more taxes, you will be turned upside down and shaken until all the money falls out of your pockets. Once the Genie is out of the bottle, it is nearly impossible to put back in. Look at the Mass. income tax.

As far as transplants go, most of the ones I know personally are flaming liberals. I try to make it a point when they complain that they are bringing to NH exactly what they ran away from in Mass., high taxes, they never get it though.....

I can only go by what I see........NH folks seem to love SB-2. If it is such a bad system I think most towns would have voted it out. Gilford folks seem pleased with its recent arrival. As for transplants: this is JMO but most Massachusetts folks I know moved here to get away from taxes, and vote conservative. Most of the liberals seem to be coming up from NY &NJ & from other parts of the nation.

In the old days most people that moved here were from MA......now they are from everywhere, and they have no sense of the NH low tax history.