best restaurant in northern part of lake

phoenix · 12-30-2007, 09:21 PM

this is the annual poll on the best restaurant on the Northern part of the lake.

Formula260SS · 12-31-2007, 05:21 PM

Was disapointed with canoe as they would not seat us for LUNCH with my 8yr old daughter, apparently they have a kids/no kids section, the "kids" section was full. We could have waited 20mins while 1/2 the place was empty, it just made no sense to wait, I would have just gotten mad and said something stupid

It's really too bad, now I have to tell everyone I know this foolish story

secondcurve · 12-31-2007, 07:58 PM

I am amazed that the Corner House Inn doesn't rate higher in these polls. perhaps it is too far out of the way?

jeffk · 12-31-2007, 10:17 PM

when we went to the Corner House our waiter was struggling with English and we kept having to repeat ourselves and were never sure if we were going to get what we ordered. He knew he was having trouble and seemed uneasy. He didn't come around very often and our drinks were long gone by the time he came back. It got so bad that one of the waitresses came over to see if we wanted anything. The food was good but we haven't gone back and don't plan to for now. For the prices that high end restaurants are now charging I expect my dining experience to be well presented in all aspects and not a training ground for inexperienced personnel.

Lakepilot · 01-01-2008, 09:34 AM

We've gone to the Corner House every year and enjoyed their Lobster Salad. This past year there was a noticable difference in the meal and service. The value to us, just wasn't there anymore.

LIforrelaxin · 01-01-2008, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formula260SS

Was disapointed with canoe as they would not seat us for LUNCH with my 8yr old daughter, apparently they have a kids/no kids section, the "kids" section was full. We could have waited 20mins while 1/2 the place was empty, it just made no sense to wait, I would have just gotten mad and said something stupid

It's really too bad, now I have to tell everyone I know this foolish story

Sorry, to hear that Formula, that is really sad...... in fact it is discrimination....I have never seen or heard of a restaurant with a policy like that before......

Canoe, if you're not too busy working your fingers to the bone, I would suggest defending yourself here???? I for one would like to understand what seems to be a very poor business practice.......

LIforrelaxin · 01-01-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by secondcurve

I am amazed that the Corner House Inn doesn't rate higher in these polls. perhaps it is too far out of the way?

Where is the Corner House????? I have probably passed it many times, but it is not ringing a bell.......

jetskier · 01-01-2008, 04:15 PM

Since they re-opened the Coe House has been terrific. The food is amazing and the service impeccable. I think that they are a notch above the other restaurants in this poll.

Jetskier

fatlazyless · 01-01-2008, 04:34 PM

Driving past The Coe House is about the closest I'll ever get to eating at The Coe House.....hear it costs like $150./two....unless they hold a yard sale.

The Italian Farm House, a Common Man ristorante on Rt 3 in south Plymouth is 'ciao bueno' and two can get out of there for like $30. if you pick carefully....plus they have unlimited dip & breadsticks so I like to fill up on that and then get the cheapest item on the menu. Hey, are there any slender & very attractive & wealthy, single women out there who want to go 'Dutch' with me to Plymouth's Italian Farm House? You know what they say.....opposites attract!

brk-lnt · 01-01-2008, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formula260SS

It's really too bad, now I have to tell everyone I know this foolish story

Well, while I'm sure your kids are well behaved, many times "parents" (I use the term loosely) think that all other diners should be subjected to their kids' temper-tantrums, outbursts, and other unpleasant experiences.

I didn't know that they had a non-kids section (never been there yet), but will make it a point to go dine there now. Thanks for sharing your story!

LIforrelaxin · 01-02-2008, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

I didn't know that they had a non-kids section (never been there yet),

My question is, and i did ask Canoe earlier in the thread (admitidly not in the nicest way) to comment on this, has anyone ever heard of a a resturant Having a "kid section". I will admit I tend not to go to the trendeous places, as that is just not me, so this could be common place and I didn't know it.....

And Canoe, if my earlier reply seems overly confrontational, I am sorry, but I feel that far to often things go far. And for a Resturant such as yours to have a "dedicated" kids section I find rediculous. I know way to many kids that are better behaved in a resturant then some adults.

Rose · 01-02-2008, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

I know way to many kids that are better behaved in a resturant then some adults.

Unfortunately, I've had too many meals disrupted by ill-mannered children who seem to take after their parents to agree with you. I think the idea is rather than have to confront the parents of these kids, the management would rather have a separate section.

LIforrelaxin · 01-02-2008, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rose

Unfortunately, I've had too many meals disrupted by ill-mannered children who seem to take after their parents to agree with you. I think the idea is rather than have to confront the parents of these kids, the management would rather have a separate section.

While I don't deny even myself having had a meal interrupted in restaurant buy a yelling kid or upset kid. I believe this to be a minor problem. And while I can see a restaurant trying to keep a kids free section, I can't understand someone like Formula being turned away because the "kids Section" is full, and the kids free section has many empty seats, that it is segregation at its best. I understood, while not fully agreeing, when smokers slowly began loosing their rights. So I guess now that the smoker have been segregated into second class citizens, we need to move onto something new. Yeah punish people for having kids, yeah that's fair.....

There is a fine line between what is acceptable and unacceptable. And when health is a concern, such as with smoking, I can understand. However, Kids don't pose a health risk, and this I can't understand. People have to learn that life doesn't always get to be designed to fit what they want. Tolerance made this country great, what is happening to that quality??

Rose · 01-02-2008, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Kids don't pose a health risk, and this I can't understand.

You haven't seen my husband's blood pressure when the kids start wailing in a high end restaurant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

People have to learn that life doesn't always get to be designed to fit what they want. Tolerance made this country great, what is happening to that quality??

I think this should be taught to the children first. For example, they don't have a right to scream and run around in a public place disturbing many other people. As a wise Vulcan once said, "logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." (Spock, Star Trek - Wrath of Khan)

GWC... · 01-02-2008, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

There is a fine line between what is acceptable and unacceptable.
People have to learn that life doesn't always get to be designed to fit what they want. Tolerance made this country great, what is happening to that quality??

My opinion, exactly...

Why are some parents not tolerant of my desire to enjoy a peaceful, quiet, sensual meal?

Why must I be tolerant of their improperly raised, misbehaved offspring?

What makes them so special that they need not be tolerant of my epicurean pleasure?

GTO · 01-02-2008, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rose

Unfortunately, I've had too many meals disrupted by ill-mannered children who seem to take after their parents to agree with you. I think the idea is rather than have to confront the parents of these kids, the management would rather have a separate section.

Why not have a cell phone section for those annoying people that have to be on the phone for 3/4 of their meal. And maybe an annoying laugher section....because I always seem to get stuck near the table that has that one person that has to laugh or talk so that everyone right into the kitchen has to hear them. Tell you what, just give me my own section back in the corner and I''ll be happy

upthesaukee · 01-02-2008, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

And while I can see a restaurant trying to keep a kids free section, I can't understand someone like Formula being turned away because the "kids Section" is full, and the kids free section has many empty seats, that it is segregation at its best. I?

Unfortunately, when a policy is instituted like that, the business must do all or none; otherwise it is indeed discrimination. ("You let them sit in the regular dining room, but we had to sit in the kid's dining room).

I'm sure it was not an easy decision on this restaurant's management's part to institute this policy, but once the policy is established, it behooves them to stick to it, or they will be called to task for discrimination.

JMHO

LIforrelaxin · 01-02-2008, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by upthesaukee

JMHO

That is what this is all about is sharing opinions. I don't expect everyone to see my view.... or even agree with it... it just that my view....

I think it great that we are all batting this one around a little, cause it is an interesting subject. Not just concerning kids either.... cells phones as GTO brings up are another issue..... and then hey what if you are against alcohol..... Anyways the things you can come up with are endless.... and they all ride a fine line.

And the bottom line is everyone should be able to enjoy a nice dinner out. Just always seems to happen that some irritating happens......

Newbiesaukee · 01-02-2008, 04:47 PM

I hate noisy kids, ill-behaved kids in restaurants. Having said that, the children policy at Canoe has come up at least several times in the Forum. The chef/owner has ( on the Forum) said that there is one dining room reserved for adults only (16 and over) and children are welcome everywhere else in the restaurant. This may sound good, but the problem seems to be that there is uneven implementation of the policy (and lack of clarity of what the policy is)and the fact that it keeps coming up suggests there is a problem with the policy. Unfortunately,I think it really is not very practical. I tend to agree with others that cell phones and drunk diners have ruined more meals than children. It may be that poorly behaved children are usually raised by rude folks with cell phones and drunks....

On another note, the Corner House ( on Rt 109 in Center Sandwich) is one of my favorites in the area with a very wide ranging menu from the casual to the upscale. They do hire some help from abroad during the summer ( students who stay just for the summer). Their English is not always perfect, but they are understandable (if you listen) and if there is a problem other staff picks up on it. They usually try hard and it is is worth the little extra effort. I do understand that this might be off-putting from some diners but I try to stay relaxed at the lake. I have no relationship with anyone at any restaurant.

LIforrelaxin · 01-02-2008, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newbiesaukee

It may be that poorly behaved children are usually raised by rude folks with cell phones and drunks....

Well that didn't dawn on me as these things came up..... but that has got to be it.....

Also thanks for letting me know where the Corner House is, I now know why I wasn't familiar with it, I spend almost no time in Sandwich.......

Dave M · 01-03-2008, 09:25 AM

LI, you may want to try Corner House. Been there a number of times and haven't been disappointed yet, good food. You may also want to try the bar area upstairs. They have tables and couches with tables and serve light fare. When we come up to the lake to check on things we usually stop in for a drink and eats before heading home. Common Man in Ashland has the same setup but larger. Used to stop in there after sking during the week. Very relaxing and great atmosphere.

Enjoy.

Dave M

Merrymeeting · 01-03-2008, 09:56 AM

It surprises me that people see this as a Canoe issue. The solution is simple. If you don't like their policy, go to another establishment. Problem solved!

This is a private business, not a public meeting area. They can make the rules. I've never been there but apparently they are doing something right as many seem to like going there.

I'm not against kids. In fact, I have several. I'm thankful that, as far as I know, they've never been a problem when we've taken them out to eat (no complaints, no dirty looks....yet)

But when my wife and I go out to a nice dinner, it is usually to get a break from the routine, including kids, and a nice, quiet, dinner is exactly what we crave. The last thing I want to have to deal with is a batch of loud, whiny kids at the next table. Well-behaved, polite ones are not a problem. But the problem is that definition seems to be different for different parents.

jeffk · 01-03-2008, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merrymeeting

But when my wife and I go out to a nice dinner, it is usually to get a break from the routine, including kids, and a nice, quiet, dinner is exactly what we crave. The last thing I want to have to deal with is a batch of loud, whiny kids at the next table. Well-behaved, polite ones are not a problem. But the problem is that definition seems to be different for different parents.

Some kids are extremely out of control and some adults simply have low tolerance for kids, especially if they are looking forward to a quiet meal. Mixing the kids and the adults may result in dissatisfaction on both sides.

And it's not just the kids. Many parents, when politely asked to keep Bobby or Suzy from bouncing on the back of my seat, throwing things into my lap, or screaming in my ear, will get extremely indignant that I would suggest that their precious child is in need of control.

Canoe has implemented a policy of separate dining areas, which is a reasonable solution to the issue. If that results in a wait and you don't want to wait, patronize one of the other fine establishments in the area.

Little Bear · 01-03-2008, 04:28 PM

William Tell has the best food in the Lakes Region - hands down. Atmosphere is not the greatest, but I have not found better food anywhere.

ghfromaltonbay · 01-03-2008, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Bear

William Tell has the best food in the Lakes Region - hands down. Atmosphere is not the greatest, but I have not found better food anywhere.

The food at the William Tell is outstanding. Even if you aren't that familiar with German/Swiss cuisine, the other entrees are also terrific. I don't know what you don't like about the atmosphere, but we find the place cozy and very comfortable. There are no windows out front, but the dining area in back has casement windows across the entire back and white stucco walls with the shields of the Swiss Cantons displayed, and I love the stained glass window of William Tell and his son hanging in the bar area. I've mentioned the early bird specials in other forum discussions -- they are the best buy in the lakes region at $10.95! One thing I really like is no matter when we've been there (at least 10 times each year), the food always comes out piping hot. The service and the food are, as we Swiss/Germans say, "fabelhaft" (marvelous). I will also mention that we have no relationship to the owners, we're just happy patrons.

phoenix · 01-03-2008, 05:09 PM

where is william tell

Seeker · 01-03-2008, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenix

where is william tell

Rte 49 in Thornton www.nhwilliamtell.com

I hear they let you put apples on unruly kids heads and shoot them off with arrows. J/K

GWC... · 01-03-2008, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenix

where is william tell

FLL needs to visit and opine the New Management.

Hope this thread helps - W Alton and Thornton locations...

islandAl · 01-03-2008, 08:38 PM

Latest News: Under new management! Please call 726-3618 for hours of operation and menu details.

I checked the web site given and that notice was there. No date to know how old the message is. All the past reviews will need to updated with new trips.

Resident 2B · 01-03-2008, 09:01 PM

There is also a William Tell in the Gilford area on Route 11 in addition to the one near Waterville Valley. I think the two restaurants are seperate business, but I am not sure of that.

I have eaten at both and they are both nice places if you like German type food. I spent many night while on business trips trips in Berlin and Frankfrut and you do miss the great food over there, although I do not miss the time spent in airplanes and hotels.

R2B

Little Bear · 01-04-2008, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by islandAl

Latest News: Under new management! Please call 726-3618 for hours of operation and menu details.

I checked the web site given and that notice was there. No date to know how old the message is. All the past reviews will need to updated with new trips.

I was referring to William Tell in Alton on Rt. 11. GH from Alton Bay has it right - the food is excellent and always hot. Try the bignet appetizer - it's excellent.

canoe · 01-04-2008, 11:32 AM

i have gone on the record before about our policy. we have 200 seats in the restaurant, we reserve 50 of those seats for adults only at dinner. i dont know how this is called discrimination. we have aspecial childrens menu, booster seats, high chairs for children, we welcome everyone to our restaurant and accomodate everyone to ther best of our ability. we have a few new people at the front desk and they were not aware that at lunch if we have the Canoe room open we do seat children, I appologize for your wait.

Rattlesnake Guy · 01-04-2008, 11:29 PM

Bravo Canoe,
If only all restaurants had enough sense to have kid free zones so we can fully enjoy the experience and food. You are being more than fair and we appreciate your policy.

Lakegeezer · 01-05-2008, 07:07 AM

If you are looking for a place that you can go out to eat often at, the Village Kitchen in Moultonborough is worth taking a look at. Its not up for a vote here, but you'll often find a line to get in. They don't accept credit cards, but a $30 dinner check will feed two well, including desert. There is a special each nite of the week. I like Wednesday nites when they have chicken parm. The kitchen also has a parking lot for snowmobiles, making it a good destination.

hockeypuck · 01-05-2008, 07:12 AM

Canoe, you are doing a great job. Keep it up. Don't change anything.

You can please all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you can't please all the people all the time.

You have a terrific restaurant with great food, reasonable prices and I feel a very accommodating seating policy.

Weirs guy · 01-05-2008, 09:11 AM

I see no issue with Canoes policy, its pretty simple. If we have the kids, we won't go to Canoe. If we don't have the kids, well we probably still won't go, but we might! Canoe, does the O have the same policy?

phoenix · 01-05-2008, 09:16 AM

they must be doing something right as they are ahead as the best restaurant in the poll by a factor of two

tricia1218 · 01-05-2008, 10:09 AM

I do not see any issues with Canoe's seating policy and would welcome a adults only section in any resturant, and we are expecting our 1st in June so we will be in childrens section soon enough

.

I think parents become accustomed to the noise, jumping around from children and do not notice people around them trying to enjoy a quiet dinner. I am sure we all have been seated next to both well behaved children and not well behaved children, it can really make or break your night out.

TomC · 01-05-2008, 01:32 PM

Even the "happiest place on Earth" for children has implemented a "no kids" policy in one of their eateries...

http://www.tampabays10.com/news/loca...?storyid=71186

NBR · 01-05-2008, 02:41 PM

Considering the number of children I see running around unattended in grocery stores, department stores etc. I think a children's section is appropriate and I applaud Canoe for instituting the policy. If parents attended to their children and taught them some manners it would not be necessary.

Don't get me wrong we took ours out to eat often but they were well behaved and when not they were taken outside until they settled down.
They didn't misbehave at home without consequence and were expected to be the same when dining out. Whether it be a Canoe or a McDonalds.

moose tracks · 01-05-2008, 06:11 PM

We lost focus! This thread is about the best restaurants in the northern part of the lake NOT about children in restaurants. Can we get back to the topic?

Resident 2B · 01-05-2008, 06:27 PM

For the record, I voted for Canoe in this poll. I voted for Canoe because I believe they are the best in the area.

In the past, I have been critical of the Canoe kids' policy. It is now clearly posted and they handle things the way they say they will in the posted policy. That is a big plus in my opinion.

I still have one problem with what they do, and that has to do with seating families with children in the bar area, at tables that are designed for drinks and appetizers and not for dinners. If it is not right to seat the children in the adult-only area, placing families with children in the bar is not right either. I have witnessed loud, off-color, adults-only remarks being made by many adults at the bar within earshot of the children and not one Canoe employee doing anything about it. This is not right in my opinion.

One time we got assigned to the bar and before we sat down, I objected to the seating area and was rudely told we would have to go back on the bottom of the one-hour waiting list of we refused the bar area, mini-table. We left instead and have not been back with the kids since.

That said, clearly the food and the overall presentation is tops. If you have kids and you do not get assigned to the bar area, you will have a great meal and a great time. If you get the bar, you will not enjoy it at all. Because of this, I stopped bring my kids there two years ago, but they are now in their teens and twenties, so I will start bringing them again, if they are ever around.

The above is my only comment I will make about Canoe. Again, it is a very good place for a meal, in a dining room.

R2B

Irish mist · 01-05-2008, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

For the record, I voted for Canoe in this poll. I voted for Canoe because I believe they are the best in the area.

In the past, I have been critical of the Canoe kids' policy. It is now clearly posted and they handle things the way they say they will in the posted policy. That is a big plus in my opinion.

I still have one problem with what they do, and that has to do with seating families with children in the bar area, at tables that are designed for drinks and appetizers and not for dinners. If it is not right to seat the children in the adult-only area, placing families with children in the bar is not right either. I have witnessed loud, off-color, adults-only remarks being made by many adults at the bar within earshot of the children and not one Canoe employee doing anything about it. This is not right in my opinion.

One time we got assigned to the bar and before we sat down, I objected to the seating area and was rudely told we would have to go back on the bottom of the one-hour waiting list of we refused the bar area, mini-table. We left instead and have not been back with the kids since.

That said, clearly the food and the overall presentation is tops. If you have kids and you do not get assigned to the bar area, you will have a great meal and a great time. If you get the bar, you will not enjoy it at all. Because of this, I stopped bring my kids there two years ago, but they are now in their teens and twenties, so I will start bringing them again, if they are ever around.

The above is my only comment I will make about Canoe. Again, it is a very good place for a meal, in a dining room.

R2B

Lol, that's why I go to the drive-up at Wendy's and get the dollar stack burgers......don't need to pay a fortune to wait around for hours to eat, and then be abused

Resident 2B · 01-05-2008, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irish mist

Lol, that's why I go to the drive-up at Wendy's and get the dollar stack burgers......don't need to pay a fortune to wait around for hours to eat, and then be abused

Irish Mist,

You are clearly the voice of experience!

My wife really likes going out to eat in nice places. I am happy with a great sandwich at Waldo-Peppers or a simple whatever at home. Drive-in fast food also works for me. Simple, fast and reasonably priced.

Thanks for the post. I am still chuckling about it!

R2B

Irish mist · 01-05-2008, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

Irish Mist,

You are clearly the voice of experience!

My wife really likes going out to eat in nice places. I am happy with a great sandwich at Waldo-Peppers or a simple whatever at home. Drive-in fast food also works for me. Simple, fast and reasonably priced.

Thanks for the post. I am still chuckling about it!

R2B

Over the years I have really just stopped going to the fancy places. It's fun once in a while, but between the money & the service issues I'm like you.....make it simple

C Tucker · 01-06-2008, 09:58 AM

Although my vote for best has gone to Corner House-always a wonderful meal, I must pass on news that we tried Walter's Basin this summer. We discovered the current owners have authentic New Orleans-Cajun experience and it shows. Delicious meals on several separate visits.

Canoe is over-rated in my opinion. The food choices vary from excellent to so-so. Atmosphere is strained with too close seating, long waits and rude front desk. Wait service has always been good.

Rag Top Daze · 01-06-2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moose tracks

We lost focus! This thread is about the best restaurants in the northern part of the lake NOT about children in restaurants. Can we get back to the topic?

Even though children is not what this thread about, the adults only section is part of the reason the Canoe is tops on my list. Keep up the good work Canoe and we will continue to be repeat customers.

jetskier · 01-06-2008, 01:31 PM

Hi all,

The issue that I have with this poll is that it is really about the restaurant that is the most popular or frequented. It would be much more interesting to discuss the restaurants that are the best value or the best quality in a particular price range. You do not see a comparison of Wendy's and Davio's in the Boston area; but that is somewhat what we have here. Canoe and Coe House are not in the same market or price range. I believe that Coe House is the best food hands down; however, it may not be the best value.

Jetskier

lucknow98 · 01-10-2008, 10:05 AM

It's Buckey's with an e

beancover · 01-13-2008, 06:09 PM

I had brunch at Corner House today and I am so disappointed that a once great restaurant has slipped in such a big way. The help, although very pleasant, was clueless about what they offered on the brunch menu. The menu itself has changed and many of our old favorites are gone. Notably, the turkey/lobster club and the crabmeat melt on english muffins are no longer offered. What we did eat was very mediocre, and a far cry from the quality they used to demand. It's too bad that is has come to that. We won't be back.

beancover · 01-13-2008, 06:46 PM

Does anyone know what's going on with Lemongrass Restuarant?

phoenix · 01-19-2008, 08:55 PM

third annual poll of the best restaurant in northern part of the lake is complete and Canoe is clearly the winner. Two other results of note first the Coe House which reopened this year finished a strong second and the other was the large drop off in the Woodshed.

DREAMS · 01-27-2008, 12:16 PM

What happened to the days that coming to the lake was a family event and recreation. I was fortune enough to experience a family childhood of growing up on a lake and boating. Unfortunatley, the current generation of cottage and owners of lake property are the grandparents or the parents of middle age and older children. The result is that the younger families are having lunch and dinner at the grandparents house because of affordablity. The restaurants are gearing their services and style on the clientele of the grandparents and great grandparents whose children have left the nest. The occasional visit to the restaurant with all the children only happens on special occassions or holidays. This sytem will work until the older parents and grandparents can't afford their lake homes and sell out to the millionares.
Eventually, the families and kids will be spending their day and night boating with the cooler and munchies from the local grocery store verses dining out in a restaurant. That boating trip for ice-cream will become dinner with the kids! Certainly, the Canoe's policy for discriminating with kids or speicalizing in adults who prefer not to be with kids will diminsh their family entertainment. So sad that the discussion of raising families and have fun with kids has become a financial bearing matter for the innocent.

beancover · 01-27-2008, 08:25 PM

I don't know where you are drawing your demographics from but that is not my experience at all. My kids have "grown up on the lake" and as teenagers, they still love the boat trip for ice cream. So do their friends. We go out for dinner occasionally as a family and we see many other families with kids of all ages. (Hint...that is why you can barely get a table at any restaurant in the peak of the season.) Truth be told, we come to the lake to relax. That means being able to roll off the boat at 8pm and throw dinner on the grill and sit down to eat in bathing suits and wet tee shirts. Going out to eat is usually more of an intrusion and a pain in the neck. When we do go out, one of our favorite places is the Canoe.

upthesaukee · 01-27-2008, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DREAMS

ertainly, the Canoe's policy for discriminating with kids or speicalizing in adults who prefer not to be with kids will diminsh their family entertainment

I have only been "touching base" on this thread on occasion and then end up going back to previous entries. I keep seeing references to discrimination in Canoe's policy. I think if you go back to thread 32 (I think), Canoe states that he/she has 200 seats and reserves 50 for adults who prefer to dine without children around. That is only 25% of seating, and 75% is for families. Pretty generous, actually.
Not a criticism on you, Dreamer, but perhaps a little disagreement on the use of the word "discrimination" or any of its forms.

Your children may be well behaved, but there are certainly many others that are not, and while we enjoy going out with any or all of our 8 grandchildren ranging in age from 2 to 18, they do behave or they hear about it from their parents and then they do behave.

In discussing this with my wife, we remembered staying at the Sagamore at Lake George a few years ago, and there was a sitting area where you can get cocktails in the evening. The sign at the entrance stated "well behaved children allowed." The main dining room had a sign stating "no children under age 12 allowed". Now there is some real limitations (which they did enforce by the way).

Hope you can still enjoy going out to dinner with all generations.

nj2nh · 01-28-2008, 08:30 AM

Kids need to learn to behave in all sorts of areas. How will they do so if they are not allowed to enter them?

Any sensible parents (and I know there are tons who are simply not sensible) bring their children to restaurants early for a variety of reasons which do not include the comfort of people without children. We (including me, my husband, and my two boys) go early because that is when they get hungry. That is also when we wouldn't have to wait.

My boys are 11 and 14. Any restaurant that tells me I cannot bring my children in would not get my hard earned money. In fact, I stopped patronizing a store in Wolfeboro because it banned children and I did this before I had any.

So. to those of you who don't like to eat with kids, I have a question. Weren't YOU ever a child? Didn't your parents have to bring you to places so you would learn when it is not okay to scream, yell and cry?

Please accept that children exist and have to learn to behave. It's the parents you need to take issue with. If kids disrupt anything whether in a restaurant, a movie, a store, etc., complain to the management quickly and quietly. If management does nothing, don't go to that restaurant anymore. But don't blame the kids.

As for me, even though my kids will eventually be old enough for the Canoe and a time will come when my kids are not with me at the lake anymore, I will never, ever go there. Period.

By the way, my kids have never, ever screamed, cried or carried on in a restaurant, even when they were tiny infants and toddlers. They spent their fair share of time at places like Foxy Johnny's and the Bittersweet (of whatever it was after that). Don't blame the children. Blame their indulgent, pampering parents. It is these parents whose children can do no wrong. That is the basic problem here.

nj2nh

Lucky2Bhere · 01-28-2008, 09:13 PM

We have dined at Canoe at least 12 times a year from the time they opened. Many times have been with our kids and several have been with my younger niece and nephew. Never have we witnessed one bit of "child discrimination" at our table or others. Why do so many people persist in this issue?

Smitty1 · 01-28-2008, 10:34 PM

We go to the Canoe with our kids all the time. We like to sit in the places that kids are allowed-even when the kids are not with us.

The kids policy is NOT a big deal.......

Smitty1

Quote:

Originally Posted by nj2nh

Kids need to learn to behave in all sorts of areas. How will they do so if they are not allowed to enter them?

Any sensible parents (and I know there are tons who are simply not sensible) bring their children to restaurants early for a variety of reasons which do not include the comfort of people without children. We (including me, my husband, and my two boys) go early because that is when they get hungry. That is also when we wouldn't have to wait.

My boys are 11 and 14. Any restaurant that tells me I cannot bring my children in would not get my hard earned money. In fact, I stopped patronizing a store in Wolfeboro because it banned children and I did this before I had any.

So. to those of you who don't like to eat with kids, I have a question. Weren't YOU ever a child? Didn't your parents have to bring you to places so you would learn when it is not okay to scream, yell and cry?

Please accept that children exist and have to learn to behave. It's the parents you need to take issue with. If kids disrupt anything whether in a restaurant, a movie, a store, etc., complain to the management quickly and quietly. If management does nothing, don't go to that restaurant anymore. But don't blame the kids.

As for me, even though my kids will eventually be old enough for the Canoe and a time will come when my kids are not with me at the lake anymore, I will never, ever go there. Period.

By the way, my kids have never, ever screamed, cried or carried on in a restaurant, even when they were tiny infants and toddlers. They spent their fair share of time at places like Foxy Johnny's and the Bittersweet (of whatever it was after that). Don't blame the children. Blame their indulgent, pampering parents. It is these parents whose children can do no wrong. That is the basic problem here.

nj2nh

View Poll Results: What is the best restaurant in northern part of the lake
coe house	37	6.07%
canoe	171	28.03%
woodshed	188	30.82%
corner house	31	5.08%
kevin's	43	7.05%
lemon grass	32	5.25%
bucky's	46	7.54%
grill 25	7	1.15%
other	66	10.82%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 610. You may not vote on this poll

12-30-2007, 09:21 PM	#1
phoenix Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: phoenix and moultonboro Posts: 1,563 Thanks: 63 Thanked 276 Times in 194 Posts	best restaurant in northern part of lake this is the annual poll on the best restaurant on the Northern part of the lake. __________________ it's tough to make predictions specially about the future

12-31-2007, 05:21 PM	#2
Formula260SS Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: NH Posts: 384 Thanks: 11 Thanked 76 Times in 51 Posts	canoe Was disapointed with canoe as they would not seat us for LUNCH with my 8yr old daughter, apparently they have a kids/no kids section, the "kids" section was full. We could have waited 20mins while 1/2 the place was empty, it just made no sense to wait, I would have just gotten mad and said something stupid It's really too bad, now I have to tell everyone I know this foolish story

12-31-2007, 10:17 PM	#4
jeffk Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Center Harbor Posts: 1,191 Thanks: 210 Thanked 460 Times in 263 Posts	Out of the way and ... when we went to the Corner House our waiter was struggling with English and we kept having to repeat ourselves and were never sure if we were going to get what we ordered. He knew he was having trouble and seemed uneasy. He didn't come around very often and our drinks were long gone by the time he came back. It got so bad that one of the waitresses came over to see if we wanted anything. The food was good but we haven't gone back and don't plan to for now. For the prices that high end restaurants are now charging I expect my dining experience to be well presented in all aspects and not a training ground for inexperienced personnel.

01-01-2008, 09:34 AM	#5
Lakepilot Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 446 Thanks: 70 Thanked 57 Times in 40 Posts	Corner House We've gone to the Corner House every year and enjoyed their Lobster Salad. This past year there was a noticable difference in the meal and service. The value to us, just wasn't there anymore.

12-31-2007, 07:58 PM	#3
secondcurve Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,128 Thanks: 1,352 Thanked 564 Times in 291 Posts	I am amazed that the Corner House Inn doesn't rate higher in these polls. perhaps it is too far out of the way?

01-01-2008, 04:15 PM	#8
jetskier Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Reading, MA and South Down Shores Posts: 855 Thanks: 58 Thanked 183 Times in 114 Posts	Coe House Since they re-opened the Coe House has been terrific. The food is amazing and the service impeccable. I think that they are a notch above the other restaurants in this poll. Jetskier

01-01-2008, 04:34 PM	#9
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,935 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 307 Thanked 1,056 Times in 769 Posts	Driving past The Coe House is about the closest I'll ever get to eating at The Coe House.....hear it costs like $150./two....unless they hold a yard sale. The Italian Farm House, a Common Man ristorante on Rt 3 in south Plymouth is 'ciao bueno' and two can get out of there for like $30. if you pick carefully....plus they have unlimited dip & breadsticks so I like to fill up on that and then get the cheapest item on the menu. Hey, are there any slender & very attractive & wealthy, single women out there who want to go 'Dutch' with me to Plymouth's Italian Farm House? You know what they say.....opposites attract! __________________ .... Banned for life from local thrift store! Last edited by fatlazyless; 01-01-2008 at 05:31 PM.

01-02-2008, 04:47 PM	#19
Newbiesaukee Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Coral Gables, winter; Long Island, summer Posts: 1,363 Thanks: 961 Thanked 575 Times in 300 Posts	Canoe and kids and Corner House I hate noisy kids, ill-behaved kids in restaurants. Having said that, the children policy at Canoe has come up at least several times in the Forum. The chef/owner has ( on the Forum) said that there is one dining room reserved for adults only (16 and over) and children are welcome everywhere else in the restaurant. This may sound good, but the problem seems to be that there is uneven implementation of the policy (and lack of clarity of what the policy is)and the fact that it keeps coming up suggests there is a problem with the policy. Unfortunately,I think it really is not very practical. I tend to agree with others that cell phones and drunk diners have ruined more meals than children. It may be that poorly behaved children are usually raised by rude folks with cell phones and drunks.... On another note, the Corner House ( on Rt 109 in Center Sandwich) is one of my favorites in the area with a very wide ranging menu from the casual to the upscale. They do hire some help from abroad during the summer ( students who stay just for the summer). Their English is not always perfect, but they are understandable (if you listen) and if there is a problem other staff picks up on it. They usually try hard and it is is worth the little extra effort. I do understand that this might be off-putting from some diners but I try to stay relaxed at the lake. I have no relationship with anyone at any restaurant.

01-03-2008, 09:25 AM	#21
Dave M Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 395 Thanks: 4 Thanked 26 Times in 24 Posts	LI, you may want to try Corner House. Been there a number of times and haven't been disappointed yet, good food. You may also want to try the bar area upstairs. They have tables and couches with tables and serve light fare. When we come up to the lake to check on things we usually stop in for a drink and eats before heading home. Common Man in Ashland has the same setup but larger. Used to stop in there after sking during the week. Very relaxing and great atmosphere. Enjoy. Dave M

01-03-2008, 09:56 AM	#22
Merrymeeting Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Merrymeeting Lake, New Durham Posts: 2,228 Thanks: 305 Thanked 802 Times in 369 Posts	It surprises me that people see this as a Canoe issue. The solution is simple. If you don't like their policy, go to another establishment. Problem solved! This is a private business, not a public meeting area. They can make the rules. I've never been there but apparently they are doing something right as many seem to like going there. I'm not against kids. In fact, I have several. I'm thankful that, as far as I know, they've never been a problem when we've taken them out to eat (no complaints, no dirty looks....yet) But when my wife and I go out to a nice dinner, it is usually to get a break from the routine, including kids, and a nice, quiet, dinner is exactly what we crave. The last thing I want to have to deal with is a batch of loud, whiny kids at the next table. Well-behaved, polite ones are not a problem. But the problem is that definition seems to be different for different parents.

01-03-2008, 04:28 PM	#24
Little Bear Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 581 Thanks: 125 Thanked 248 Times in 134 Posts	William Tell has the best food in the Lakes Region - hands down. Atmosphere is not the greatest, but I have not found better food anywhere.

01-03-2008, 05:09 PM	#26
phoenix Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: phoenix and moultonboro Posts: 1,563 Thanks: 63 Thanked 276 Times in 194 Posts	where is william tell __________________ it's tough to make predictions specially about the future

01-03-2008, 08:38 PM	#29
islandAl Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Mountonboro Posts: 200 Thanks: 12 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	update on William Tell Latest News: Under new management! Please call 726-3618 for hours of operation and menu details. I checked the web site given and that notice was there. No date to know how old the message is. All the past reviews will need to updated with new trips.

01-03-2008, 09:01 PM	#30
Resident 2B Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Shore, MA Posts: 1,358 Thanks: 996 Thanked 314 Times in 164 Posts	Two William Tell's There is also a William Tell in the Gilford area on Route 11 in addition to the one near Waterville Valley. I think the two restaurants are seperate business, but I am not sure of that. I have eaten at both and they are both nice places if you like German type food. I spent many night while on business trips trips in Berlin and Frankfrut and you do miss the great food over there, although I do not miss the time spent in airplanes and hotels. R2B

01-04-2008, 11:32 AM	#32
canoe Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 21 Thanks: 12 Thanked 20 Times in 4 Posts	children at canoe i have gone on the record before about our policy. we have 200 seats in the restaurant, we reserve 50 of those seats for adults only at dinner. i dont know how this is called discrimination. we have aspecial childrens menu, booster seats, high chairs for children, we welcome everyone to our restaurant and accomodate everyone to ther best of our ability. we have a few new people at the front desk and they were not aware that at lunch if we have the Canoe room open we do seat children, I appologize for your wait.

01-04-2008, 11:29 PM	#33
Rattlesnake Guy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,254 Thanks: 423 Thanked 366 Times in 175 Posts	Bravo Canoe, If only all restaurants had enough sense to have kid free zones so we can fully enjoy the experience and food. You are being more than fair and we appreciate your policy.

01-05-2008, 07:07 AM	#34
Lakegeezer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 1,683 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 356 Thanked 641 Times in 292 Posts	Village Kitchen If you are looking for a place that you can go out to eat often at, the Village Kitchen in Moultonborough is worth taking a look at. Its not up for a vote here, but you'll often find a line to get in. They don't accept credit cards, but a $30 dinner check will feed two well, including desert. There is a special each nite of the week. I like Wednesday nites when they have chicken parm. The kitchen also has a parking lot for snowmobiles, making it a good destination. __________________ -lg

01-05-2008, 07:12 AM	#35
hockeypuck Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Southern CT Posts: 169 Thanks: 19 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Canoe, you are doing a great job. Keep it up. Don't change anything. You can please all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you can't please all the people all the time. You have a terrific restaurant with great food, reasonable prices and I feel a very accommodating seating policy.

01-05-2008, 09:11 AM	#36
Weirs guy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Weirs Beach, NH Posts: 1,067 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I see no issue with Canoes policy, its pretty simple. If we have the kids, we won't go to Canoe. If we don't have the kids, well we probably still won't go, but we might! Canoe, does the O have the same policy? __________________ Is it bikeweek yet? Now?

01-05-2008, 09:16 AM	#37
phoenix Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: phoenix and moultonboro Posts: 1,563 Thanks: 63 Thanked 276 Times in 194 Posts	they must be doing something right as they are ahead as the best restaurant in the poll by a factor of two __________________ it's tough to make predictions specially about the future

01-05-2008, 10:09 AM	#38
tricia1218 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: MA/Paugus Bay Posts: 155 Thanks: 31 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	I do not see any issues with Canoe's seating policy and would welcome a adults only section in any resturant, and we are expecting our 1st in June so we will be in childrens section soon enough . I think parents become accustomed to the noise, jumping around from children and do not notice people around them trying to enjoy a quiet dinner. I am sure we all have been seated next to both well behaved children and not well behaved children, it can really make or break your night out.

01-05-2008, 01:32 PM	#39
TomC Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Lakes Region Posts: 746 Thanks: 29 Thanked 139 Times in 89 Posts	et tu Disneyworld ...? Even the "happiest place on Earth" for children has implemented a "no kids" policy in one of their eateries... http://www.tampabays10.com/news/loca...?storyid=71186

01-05-2008, 02:41 PM	#40
NBR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bristol Posts: 119 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 15 Posts	Considering the number of children I see running around unattended in grocery stores, department stores etc. I think a children's section is appropriate and I applaud Canoe for instituting the policy. If parents attended to their children and taught them some manners it would not be necessary. Don't get me wrong we took ours out to eat often but they were well behaved and when not they were taken outside until they settled down. They didn't misbehave at home without consequence and were expected to be the same when dining out. Whether it be a Canoe or a McDonalds.

01-05-2008, 06:11 PM	#41
moose tracks Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Loudon, Tennessee, foothills of the Great Smoky Mountains Posts: 283 Thanks: 340 Thanked 41 Times in 33 Posts	Back to the topic We lost focus! This thread is about the best restaurants in the northern part of the lake NOT about children in restaurants. Can we get back to the topic? __________________ Moose Tracks

01-05-2008, 06:27 PM	#42
Resident 2B Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Shore, MA Posts: 1,358 Thanks: 996 Thanked 314 Times in 164 Posts	Canoe and Kids For the record, I voted for Canoe in this poll. I voted for Canoe because I believe they are the best in the area. In the past, I have been critical of the Canoe kids' policy. It is now clearly posted and they handle things the way they say they will in the posted policy. That is a big plus in my opinion. I still have one problem with what they do, and that has to do with seating families with children in the bar area, at tables that are designed for drinks and appetizers and not for dinners. If it is not right to seat the children in the adult-only area, placing families with children in the bar is not right either. I have witnessed loud, off-color, adults-only remarks being made by many adults at the bar within earshot of the children and not one Canoe employee doing anything about it. This is not right in my opinion. One time we got assigned to the bar and before we sat down, I objected to the seating area and was rudely told we would have to go back on the bottom of the one-hour waiting list of we refused the bar area, mini-table. We left instead and have not been back with the kids since. That said, clearly the food and the overall presentation is tops. If you have kids and you do not get assigned to the bar area, you will have a great meal and a great time. If you get the bar, you will not enjoy it at all. Because of this, I stopped bring my kids there two years ago, but they are now in their teens and twenties, so I will start bringing them again, if they are ever around. The above is my only comment I will make about Canoe. Again, it is a very good place for a meal, in a dining room. R2B

01-06-2008, 09:58 AM	#46
C Tucker Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Black Cat Island and Epsom, NH Posts: 64 Thanks: 14 Thanked 17 Times in 15 Posts	Check out Walter's Basin Although my vote for best has gone to Corner House-always a wonderful meal, I must pass on news that we tried Walter's Basin this summer. We discovered the current owners have authentic New Orleans-Cajun experience and it shows. Delicious meals on several separate visits. Canoe is over-rated in my opinion. The food choices vary from excellent to so-so. Atmosphere is strained with too close seating, long waits and rude front desk. Wait service has always been good.

01-06-2008, 01:31 PM	#48
jetskier Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Reading, MA and South Down Shores Posts: 855 Thanks: 58 Thanked 183 Times in 114 Posts	Skewed Hi all, The issue that I have with this poll is that it is really about the restaurant that is the most popular or frequented. It would be much more interesting to discuss the restaurants that are the best value or the best quality in a particular price range. You do not see a comparison of Wendy's and Davio's in the Boston area; but that is somewhat what we have here. Canoe and Coe House are not in the same market or price range. I believe that Coe House is the best food hands down; however, it may not be the best value. Jetskier

01-10-2008, 10:05 AM	#49
lucknow98 Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	For the record It's Buckey's with an e

01-13-2008, 06:09 PM	#50
beancover Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	best restaurant in northern part of lake I had brunch at Corner House today and I am so disappointed that a once great restaurant has slipped in such a big way. The help, although very pleasant, was clueless about what they offered on the brunch menu. The menu itself has changed and many of our old favorites are gone. Notably, the turkey/lobster club and the crabmeat melt on english muffins are no longer offered. What we did eat was very mediocre, and a far cry from the quality they used to demand. It's too bad that is has come to that. We won't be back.

01-13-2008, 06:46 PM	#51
beancover Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	best restaurant in northern part of lake Does anyone know what's going on with Lemongrass Restuarant?

01-19-2008, 08:55 PM	#52
phoenix Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: phoenix and moultonboro Posts: 1,563 Thanks: 63 Thanked 276 Times in 194 Posts	third annual poll of the best restaurant in northern part of the lake is complete and Canoe is clearly the winner. Two other results of note first the Coe House which reopened this year finished a strong second and the other was the large drop off in the Woodshed. __________________ it's tough to make predictions specially about the future

01-27-2008, 12:16 PM	#53
DREAMS Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 51 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Family accomodations are a minority What happened to the days that coming to the lake was a family event and recreation. I was fortune enough to experience a family childhood of growing up on a lake and boating. Unfortunatley, the current generation of cottage and owners of lake property are the grandparents or the parents of middle age and older children. The result is that the younger families are having lunch and dinner at the grandparents house because of affordablity. The restaurants are gearing their services and style on the clientele of the grandparents and great grandparents whose children have left the nest. The occasional visit to the restaurant with all the children only happens on special occassions or holidays. This sytem will work until the older parents and grandparents can't afford their lake homes and sell out to the millionares. Eventually, the families and kids will be spending their day and night boating with the cooler and munchies from the local grocery store verses dining out in a restaurant. That boating trip for ice-cream will become dinner with the kids! Certainly, the Canoe's policy for discriminating with kids or speicalizing in adults who prefer not to be with kids will diminsh their family entertainment. So sad that the discussion of raising families and have fun with kids has become a financial bearing matter for the innocent.

01-27-2008, 08:25 PM	#54
beancover Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	best rest in northern part of lake I don't know where you are drawing your demographics from but that is not my experience at all. My kids have "grown up on the lake" and as teenagers, they still love the boat trip for ice cream. So do their friends. We go out for dinner occasionally as a family and we see many other families with kids of all ages. (Hint...that is why you can barely get a table at any restaurant in the peak of the season.) Truth be told, we come to the lake to relax. That means being able to roll off the boat at 8pm and throw dinner on the grill and sit down to eat in bathing suits and wet tee shirts. Going out to eat is usually more of an intrusion and a pain in the neck. When we do go out, one of our favorite places is the Canoe.

01-28-2008, 08:30 AM	#56
nj2nh Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 533 Thanks: 81 Thanked 47 Times in 27 Posts	This isn't about kids, but about parents Kids need to learn to behave in all sorts of areas. How will they do so if they are not allowed to enter them? Any sensible parents (and I know there are tons who are simply not sensible) bring their children to restaurants early for a variety of reasons which do not include the comfort of people without children. We (including me, my husband, and my two boys) go early because that is when they get hungry. That is also when we wouldn't have to wait. My boys are 11 and 14. Any restaurant that tells me I cannot bring my children in would not get my hard earned money. In fact, I stopped patronizing a store in Wolfeboro because it banned children and I did this before I had any. So. to those of you who don't like to eat with kids, I have a question. Weren't YOU ever a child? Didn't your parents have to bring you to places so you would learn when it is not okay to scream, yell and cry? Please accept that children exist and have to learn to behave. It's the parents you need to take issue with. If kids disrupt anything whether in a restaurant, a movie, a store, etc., complain to the management quickly and quietly. If management does nothing, don't go to that restaurant anymore. But don't blame the kids. As for me, even though my kids will eventually be old enough for the Canoe and a time will come when my kids are not with me at the lake anymore, I will never, ever go there. Period. By the way, my kids have never, ever screamed, cried or carried on in a restaurant, even when they were tiny infants and toddlers. They spent their fair share of time at places like Foxy Johnny's and the Bittersweet (of whatever it was after that). Don't blame the children. Blame their indulgent, pampering parents. It is these parents whose children can do no wrong. That is the basic problem here. nj2nh __________________