HB-847 - The Fiscal Issue - Where do We get the $$?

Bear Islander · 01-21-2008, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

How can you possibly think enforcement of HB-847 will not affect or impact the MP budget substantially?

The teeth of HB-847 is the provision for a speeding violation in your boat to be reflected on your drivers license. In order for that to happen, the MP officers HAVE to be Radar Certified in accordance with NHSP standards. PERIOD! There really isn't any way around that. Radar Certification Training costs substantial $$$, as does the aquisition of the radar equipment and the calibration & maintenance of the equipment. Then there is the two man requirement for a Radar Patrol... so instead of having two boats on the water, the MP will have one. Not really the best use of available NHMP resources, and very expensive! Thats just out of the NHMP budget... then there are the court costs borne by the state in order to prosecute the speeding violations. That comes out of the general fund.

If the MP officers are not Radar Certified, there is NO CHANCE for a successful prosecution... this effectively nullifies HB-847. NHMP Capt. Gallagher testified to the House Transportation Committee that while radar did work, it was highly dependent upon water conditions. He also testified that due to the limitations of the device, meeting the burden of proof for a successful prosecution in court would be difficult at best! Of course people are going to continue to speed if they know the speeding tickets will be tossed out in court! What do you think would happen on the highways if people found out the NHSP were not Radar Certified, and the ticket the officer wrote wasn't worth the paper it was printed on?? You can bet the top speed on 93 would be alot higher than it is now. In fact there is a proposal in Concord to raise the speed limit on the state's highways to 70MPH!

If you think the guys with the big speedboats are going to leave.. you are sadly mistaken... most are seriously vested on Lake Winnipesaukee. They will just trade thier speedboats in for big cruisers... so instead of 38' speedboats you will be dealing with 38' long wide ass beam cruisers! I am sure your gonna love those wakes! You think your dock takes a beating now... just think of how bad it will be when its the SeaRay regatta going by Bear Island everyday!!

No doubt they will be WinnCRABS next target!

Woodsy

Woodsy

If HB847 passes will you be contacting the MP insisting they train more officers, buy more radar guns and set up speed traps all over the lake? I didn't think so!

Many other lakes have enacted speed limits without the sky falling. Lake George officials say that enforcement has not been a big problem since they enacted their speed limit.

Most people are law abiding.

fatlazyless · 01-21-2008, 09:12 PM

If you live in the Lakes Region and want an informed insider's opinion on what's up with HB 847, then go take a drive to Lakeport in Laconia. At the newly enlarged HK Motorsports, there's Republican minority leader, State Rep Mike Whalley of Alton, and at nearby Irwin Marine, there's John Irwin Jr., president of the New Hampshire Marine Trades Assoc. They're a couple of terrific guys;, hardworking, dedicated, community leaders who would no doubt be happy to share their opinions with you about HB 847.

What information do you think they would have to tell you tomorrow, on Tuesday, Feb 22?

GWC... · 01-24-2008, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

What information do you think they would have to tell you tomorrow, on Tuesday, Feb 22?

FLL's version of leap year...

Jan 21 to Feb 22 in a day...

fatlazyless · 01-24-2008, 09:07 AM

Hey, isn't that Feb 22 like George Washington's birthday! So, I just sent old GW an email, and he answered back and says that the answer to all of Winnipesaukee's problems is 'the 14' Alumacraft rowboat equipped with an Evinrude 15hp' and that is what President George Washington says in his email.....everyone except for himself must use that Alumacraft Evinrude combo.....President Washington wants a 47' Fountain w/ three 600hp MerCruisers......geeez....I don't know.....and wasn't

he a Democrat?

Read all about it in today's www.citizen.com!

Cal · 01-24-2008, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

President Washington wants a 47' Fountain w/ three 600hp MerCruisers......geeez....I don't know.....and wasn't

he a Democrat?

Actually thinking back to my childhood , I beleive he was a Whig, not a Democrat

jrc · 01-25-2008, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cal

Actually thinking back to my childhood , I beleive he was a Whig, not a Democrat

Jefferson was a founder of what today is the Democratic Party. Washington came before that and was not a member of a political party. Clay started the Whigs later. Of course Jefferson would never recognize the current party that evolved from his party. From wikipedia "The party insisted on a strict construction of the Constitution... The party promoted states' rights ...the party opposed such Federalist policies as high tariffs...

Airwaves · 01-26-2008, 02:47 PM

John A Birdsall wrote:

Quote:

Airwaves;61746]Bear Island wrote in part:

The numbers show that MORE THAN 99% of the boaters on Lake Winnipesaukee did not exceed 45 miles an hour even though there is currently NO SPEED LIMIT!

************************************************** *****************************
Guess what, at our lakefront cottage we have a total of 3 boats, and over the years their has been numerous others, but just for now lets say we have three boats, None of them will do over 45 miles an hour.

I really wonder how many boats on the lake will actually do 45 miles per hour. That and then how many of them are making them go 45 miles per hour? and for how long? perhaps between gas pumps!

I would hazzard a guess that perhaps 75% of the boats on Winni9pesaukee will not do 45 miles per hour going down hill!

The over 99% of boaters was taken from the MP report of which I provided a link to.

The actual percentage was 99.1% and it was in response to a post in which I agreed with Bear Islander. His statement was that most people are law abiding and I added the word "reasonable" given that 99% of the boats were clocked at under 45MPH thus proving no additional law is required.

So I would venture to say if you are representative of a lakefront owner with boats and none of your boats will do over 45 miles an hour then it makes the case even further that a speed limit is not needed.

Airwaves · 01-21-2008, 09:28 PM

Bear Island wrote in part:

Quote:

Many other lakes have enacted speed limits without the sky falling. Lake George officials say that enforcement has not been a big problem since they enacted their speed limit.

Most people are law abiding.

Well well well, for the first time we agree on something that is actually backed up by fact! Yes indeed, most people are law abiding and I would add reasonable. In fact the Marine Patrol research his past summer bears out that fact. I draw your attention to Page 5 of the report that shows graphs of the results of their research.

The numbers show that MORE THAN 99% of the boaters on Lake Winnipesaukee did not exceed 45 miles an hour even though there is currently NO SPEED LIMIT!

There are laws on the books right now that would allow the Marine Patrol to arrest the operator of a boat that they determine was operating in a dangerous manner.

HB 847 is an unfunded mandate in search of a problem! It is not only a waste of time, but a criminal waste of limited resources.

You (the anti-powerboat crowd) will be the first to scream bloody murder if, while the Marine Patrol is tied up with stationary radar duty, they are needed somewhere else on the lake but are delayed in their response and someone is seriously injured or dies because of it.

Woodsy · 01-22-2008, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Woodsy

If HB847 passes will you be contacting the MP insisting they train more officers, buy more radar guns and set up speed traps all over the lake? I didn't think so!

Many other lakes have enacted speed limits without the sky falling. Lake George officials say that enforcement has not been a big problem since they enacted their speed limit.

Most people are law abiding.

Bear Islander...

Why do you use Lake George as an example? You don't boat there! Why not use NH's own Squam Lake? Oh... Thats right although Squam has a 40MPH daytime speed limit and a 20 MPH nighttime limit, there has NEVER been a ticket written! Because the speed limit on Squam is a paper tiger, as is the speed limit on Lake George! I boat on Lake George, and its a gorgeous lake, but is nothing like Lake Winnipesaukee! I have PERSONALLY witnessed a 165MPH runby on Lake George... and guess what? The LGMP watched it too.. no ticket! On Lake George they don't have a 150' Safe Passage rule, so I can run 45 MPH 10' away and its perfectly legal! Most of the tickets the LGMP write are to PWC operators operating too close to shore (they have a 500' on-plane rule for PWC's close to shore). They also write ALOT of tickets for noise!

While I do agree with you that the majority of people are law abiding, if HB-847 passes, it needs to have teeth. So to answer your question, YES, I will want the MP to train & certify officers, set up speed traps, write tickets and attempt to have them upheld in court... and fail. Then perhaps the cost/benefit analysis will be apparent to even the most dimwitted supporters of HB-847.

I have always been of the opinion, nothing calms the waters more than the sight of an MP boat. Better funding for the MP, getting more officers on the water would make the lake far safer for everyone than HB-847... cost less and not eliminate a personal freedom enjoyed by myself and others!

Lake Winnipesaukee has a long and storied love affair with the speedboat... and you would take that away for purely selfish reasons! Unfortunately, your crusade really isn't about safety, thats easily apparent just by reading the NHMP annual safety report. HB-847 isn't really about speed either, as speed is a non-issue according to the NHMP study. Your crusade is all about one thing, and one thing only! Your dislike of speedboats and the perceived image of their operators!

Woodsy

fatlazyless · 01-22-2008, 10:40 AM

Hey there Woodsy, it's 'i before e, except after c', therefore perceived is spelled perceived, and not percieved. Just thought I'd throw this in as a friendly reminder so's my perceptions would not be miss percieved.....oops....perceived. thanks

codeman671 · 01-22-2008, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Bear Islander...
Thats right although Squam has a 45MPH speed limit, there has NEVER been a ticket written! Woodsy

For the record, Squam has a 40mph day, 20mph night limit instead of the 45mph you mentioned.

Bear Islander · 01-23-2008, 02:05 AM

I don't understand why you think HB847 needs TEETH. It doesn't. And once the bill passes you will not want any.

If you want to use Squam as an example, fine.

It has a speed limt....

It has no enforecement problems...

Case closed. Thank you for reminding me of that excellent example.

Woodsy · 01-23-2008, 10:10 AM

Bear Islander...

Case closed??

Great way to debate... its like having a debate with a 5 year old spoiled child! All the logic, reason and data in the world will not change your mind. A mind is like a parachute, it only works when its open!

There is no speed issue on Lake Winnipesaukee! The MP report proved that! But yet your hatred for speedboats continues....

You should be very very careful what you wish for... you just might get it! Lets assume you get your wish and HB-847 passes... then some of these big guys go buy big cruisers. They have the $$$ and they aren't going to leave the lake. They are heavily vested in the area. I assume you'll be complaining about the big cruisers next? The shoreline erosion, dock damage, boat damage, wakes etc... I have seen the beating your boat & shoreline take on the day of the SeaRay Regatta and I used to feel bad for you. Now I am thinking you reap what you sow. Still others don't trade in thier boats, and continue to zoom around, safe in the knowledge that HB-847 is a paper tiger. Then no doubt you will be complaining about about how HB-847 isn't enforced enough.... I will be here to remind you every chance that I told you so!

Squam doesn't have an enforcement problem because the speed limit on Squam HAS NEVER BEEN ENFORCED!!! Squam is also a much smaller lake, controlled by the wealthy property owners... Go read up on the battle to get public access to Squam and how the Squam Lake Assoc would buy the property to prevent a public boat launch! That is until the state threatened to take some land by eminent domain....

Woodsy

John A. Birdsall · 01-24-2008, 02:41 PM

[QUOTE=Airwaves;61746]Bear Island wrote in part:

The numbers show that MORE THAN 99% of the boaters on Lake Winnipesaukee did not exceed 45 miles an hour even though there is currently NO SPEED LIMIT!
************************************************** *****************************
Guess what, at our lakefront cottage we have a total of 3 boats, and over the years their has been numerous others, but just for now lets say we have three boats, None of them will do over 45 miles an hour.

I really wonder how many boats on the lake will actually do 45 miles per hour. That and then how many of them are making them go 45 miles per hour? and for how long? perhaps between gas pumps!

I would hazzard a guess that perhaps 75% of the boats on Winni9pesaukee will not do 45 miles per hour going down hill!

01-21-2008, 09:12 PM	#2
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,772 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,019 Times in 741 Posts	...over in Lakeport If you live in the Lakes Region and want an informed insider's opinion on what's up with HB 847, then go take a drive to Lakeport in Laconia. At the newly enlarged HK Motorsports, there's Republican minority leader, State Rep Mike Whalley of Alton, and at nearby Irwin Marine, there's John Irwin Jr., president of the New Hampshire Marine Trades Assoc. They're a couple of terrific guys;, hardworking, dedicated, community leaders who would no doubt be happy to share their opinions with you about HB 847. What information do you think they would have to tell you tomorrow, on Tuesday, Feb 22? __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

01-24-2008, 09:07 AM	#4
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,772 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,019 Times in 741 Posts	Hey, isn't that Feb 22 like George Washington's birthday! So, I just sent old GW an email, and he answered back and says that the answer to all of Winnipesaukee's problems is 'the 14' Alumacraft rowboat equipped with an Evinrude 15hp' and that is what President George Washington says in his email.....everyone except for himself must use that Alumacraft Evinrude combo.....President Washington wants a 47' Fountain w/ three 600hp MerCruisers......geeez....I don't know.....and wasn't he a Democrat? Read all about it in today's www.citizen.com! __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

01-22-2008, 10:40 AM	#10
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,772 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,019 Times in 741 Posts	Hey there Woodsy, it's 'i before e, except after c', therefore perceived is spelled perceived, and not percieved. Just thought I'd throw this in as a friendly reminder so's my perceptions would not be miss percieved.....oops....perceived. thanks __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

01-23-2008, 10:10 AM	#13
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,966 Thanks: 80 Thanked 980 Times in 440 Posts	Bear Islander... Case closed?? Great way to debate... its like having a debate with a 5 year old spoiled child! All the logic, reason and data in the world will not change your mind. A mind is like a parachute, it only works when its open! There is no speed issue on Lake Winnipesaukee! The MP report proved that! But yet your hatred for speedboats continues.... You should be very very careful what you wish for... you just might get it! Lets assume you get your wish and HB-847 passes... then some of these big guys go buy big cruisers. They have the $$$ and they aren't going to leave the lake. They are heavily vested in the area. I assume you'll be complaining about the big cruisers next? The shoreline erosion, dock damage, boat damage, wakes etc... I have seen the beating your boat & shoreline take on the day of the SeaRay Regatta and I used to feel bad for you. Now I am thinking you reap what you sow. Still others don't trade in thier boats, and continue to zoom around, safe in the knowledge that HB-847 is a paper tiger. Then no doubt you will be complaining about about how HB-847 isn't enforced enough.... I will be here to remind you every chance that I told you so! Squam doesn't have an enforcement problem because the speed limit on Squam HAS NEVER BEEN ENFORCED!!! Squam is also a much smaller lake, controlled by the wealthy property owners... Go read up on the battle to get public access to Squam and how the Squam Lake Assoc would buy the property to prevent a public boat launch! That is until the state threatened to take some land by eminent domain.... Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

01-24-2008, 02:41 PM	#14
John A. Birdsall Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Norwich, CT Posts: 599 Thanks: 27 Thanked 51 Times in 35 Posts	99% of boats [QUOTE=Airwaves;61746]Bear Island wrote in part: The numbers show that MORE THAN 99% of the boaters on Lake Winnipesaukee did not exceed 45 miles an hour even though there is currently NO SPEED LIMIT! ************************************************ *************************** Guess what, at our lakefront cottage we have a total of 3 boats, and over the years their has been numerous others, but just for now lets say we have three boats, None of them will do over 45 miles an hour. I really wonder how many boats on the lake will actually do 45 miles per hour. That and then how many of them are making them go 45 miles per hour? and for how long? perhaps between gas pumps! I would hazzard a guess that perhaps 75% of the boats on Winni9pesaukee will not do 45 miles per hour going down hill!

01-23-2008, 02:05 AM	#12
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	I don't understand why you think HB847 needs TEETH. It doesn't. And once the bill passes you will not want any. If you want to use Squam as an example, fine. It has a speed limt.... It has no enforecement problems... Case closed. Thank you for reminding me of that excellent example.