Lt. Dunleavy, NHMP, responds....

[Bear Islander]

That is in fact why the list was posted on offshoreonly. It's the list of businesses they will never use again.

[Lakegeezer]

Its too bad that a group hasn't formed to promote safety rather than exclusion, something like WinnSafe. The report from the MP shows that few boats are going over 45. Experienced boaters know that 99% of the safety issues occur under 45.

Places on "the list" won't miss a family here and there, because they are not represented by a group. The WinnFabs tricked businesses to sign on during their well funded marketing campaign. Many who signed probably thought they were signing up for safety - not revenge. You really can't blame them. They are fooling a lot of folks on this forum too.

What would your business do if someone asked you to sign a petition on safety? They show you a push-poll study showing 90% of non-boaters feel the same way their members do. They show you news articles and editorials that were printed within days of "educational" press releases. They talk about safety, about how kids can't canoe on weekends, how kayakers are almost run over and how Winnipesaukee has become an unfriendly place. Many of their facts are true, but some critical ones are not. They are describing Captain Bonehead, not boats going over 45 MPH. WinnFabs methods remind me too much of why the US is in Iraq. They used fear and lies to justify revenge, and fooled the house into voting for their law.

If we are to reduce the fear of boating on the lake, we need to trust those who are trying to make things better, not assume they are fools that have been swayed by fabrications. So far, that group or any proposed law has not appeared.

[JayDV]

When those store owner/operators were approached for signing the list ...

1) How was the subject introduced? As a support request for the speed bill? As an informative conversation with both petitions offered and a choice of which one to sign?

2) In the subject matter: Was the audience asked what their concerns were, vis a vis lake safety (swimmers, camp kids, power boaters, non-power boaters, pollution)? Were they offered full choice of solutions to choose from (speed limit, horsepower restriction, boater education, better enforcement) ?

Bear Islander - With all due respect, I was wondering why you qualify your concern of kids to just camp kids or your own? Of the camps on Winni, there are only a few on the islands. I haven't read anywhere here that the camps from the mainland have voiced the same outside boating concerns you listed. I applaud your efforts toward our families children, and as a former day-care host, I can understand the safety concerns. I hope my question aren't misconstrued.

Nor, for that matter, have I read of any concerns of the swimmers at the public beaches operated by the townships. Can anyone offer the formal town positions on the lake safety issues?

[Bear Islander]

Hazelnut

The "proof" is in the huge number of businesses that support speed limits. The list itself is not proof, it's just a list. Instead of picking apart the list and chipping away at the edges how about showing that there are businesses that oppose HB847.

I posted something. . . . the opposition is posting nothing!

Please tell us about the businesses that oppose HB847


JayDV

The reason why I qualified by concerns that way is because both as a camp director, and a parent, I have lost a child. But I wasn't really aware of that connection until you asked.

[KonaChick]

If tourism dollars are down in recent years at Lake Winnipesaukee it has nothing to do with fear of being run over by a fast boat. Simply put it's the economy. We entertain often on weekends up here and have never, not once been told by family or friends that they are afraid to be out on the lake. I take that back...we've been out on the broads on a particullarly choppy day and my mother did turn green. I have walked among BI and his cronies and they do indeed in my humble opinion want to see a certain type of boat/s taken off the lake. Are they using the speed rationale as their smoke screen? That I can't answer but do have my opinion. Do I get shot dirty looks and glaring stares when I take my shiny new pwc over to BI to pick up relatives to come back to our house?? Yes, quiet often.

[JayDV]

BI - Thank you for your candor. I wasn't expecting such a personal motivation. I apologize if I appeared to be lacking in couth. - JayDV

[Bear Islander]

JayDV - No problem.



Hazelnut

You are being very unfair.

You started all this by posting a "statement" of your position on speed limits. You asked for a similar statement from me. But you also requested that I not quote or pick apart your statement. Although I thought it contained a lot of unsupported opinion, I have done as you requested and not attacked it.

I posted my "statement" as requested. Now you and others are attacking every word. A capital case is being made out of my suggestion that increased numbers of larger and faster boats will cause more pollution. And it is now my responsibility to PROVE that speed limits are good for tourism.

Like you, much of what I posted was my opinion. Unlike you, I accepted your statement at face value, and stuck to the agreement.

[Rose]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I posted my "statement" as requested. Now you and others are attacking every word. A capital case is being made out of my suggestion that increased numbers of larger and faster boats will cause more pollution. And it is now my responsibility to PROVE that speed limits are good for tourism.

An increased number of ANY type of watercraft is going to cause more pollution. Why don't you support a limit on the NUMBER of watercraft (of any type) allowed on the lake?

Since the subject being debated here is about a proposed law, it shouldn't be a surprise that the supporters of the proposed law be asked to prove the need for the legislation. You haven't.

When I provide a forecast, I can't just state what the weather is going to be...I have to support my reasoning behind that forecast. Otherwise, my peers are going to be all over my behind. If others question my reasoning, I can't stand there saying, "Oh, you're making a capital case over the fact that I think the US model is going to verify just because you think the European model is going to verify. Prove that you're right!!!" Guess what happens when that does happen on weather forums? The credibility of the original forecaster is diminished.

[WeirsBeachBoater]

These NH Businesses and Associations Oppose House Bill 847

New Hampshire Recreational Boaters Association
New Hampshire Wildlife Federation
New Hampshire Bass Federation

Marine Industry Businesses
ACL Industries - Manchester
Adam's Marina - Winnisquam
Adhesive Engineering & Supply, Inc. - Seabrook
All Professional Sports - Gilford
Andrew's Marine Service - Alton Bay
Art's Power Equipment - Belmont
Atlantic Watercraft Club (charter of American Watercraft Association) - Salem
Averys Auto & Marine - Newport
Back Bay Marina - Wolfeboro
Beede Electrical Instrument Co., Inc. - Penacook
Biggart Marine - Plaistow
Bob's Beacon Marine - Newbury
Browns Auto and Marine - Newport
Center Harbor Dock & Pier Co. - Center Harbor
Channel Marine - Laconia
C.F.M. Technologies - Moultonboro
Corey's Doreys - GIlford
Dasilva Motorsports - Hampstead, Moultonboro
Dave’s Motorboat Shoppe, LLC - Gilford
Derry Marine & Salvage - Derry
Diamond Shine Boat Detailing - Gilford
Dock Doctor - Gilford
Dover Marine - Portsmouth
East Coast Marine Storage - Epping
Eastcoast Flightcraft Marine of New Hampshire - Meredith
East Coast Performance Center - Salem
Eliminator, Inc. - Lee
Epping Motor Sports - Epping
Extreme Motor Sports - Windham
Gator Signs - Gilford
George's Marina - Dover
Gillan Marine Inc - Alton Bay
Granite State Boatworks - Milford
Glendale Marina - Gilford
Gray's Marina - Enfield
Great Bay Marina - Newington
Green's Marine, Inc. - Hooksett
Goodhue Marine, Inc. - Center Harbor
Hampton River Marina - Hampton
Harpers Boat Restoration - Meredith
HK Powersports - Laconia, Tilton, Hooksett
Irwin Marine - Laconia, Hudson, Alton, Litchfield
Jack Willey's - Tilton
JFG Enterprises Prop
Jim's Mopar Performance - Salem
JP Boating, LLC - Laconia
Lakeport Landing Marina - Laconia
Lakes Region Fiberglass - Laconia
Lakeside Boat Rentals - Alton Bay
Little Bay Marina - Dover
Lucky Lenny's Power Place - Tilton
Marine USA - Milford
Marlin Products Div. Pompanette LLC - Charlestown
Melvin Village Marina - Melvin Village
Miles Marine - Gilford
Moultonborough Canvas - Moultonborough
National Boat - Deerfield
Nault's Windham Honda - Windham
New England Boat & Motor - Laconia
New England Correct Craft - Rochester
Nimar International, Inc. - Walpole
Norm's Marina Inc. - Hinsdale
North/South Performance Boats - Alton Bay
One Stop Toy Shop - Epping
Outdoor Performance Center - Bridgewater
Outdoor Prop Service - Laconia
Owen's Marine - Hooksett
Philbricks Sports Center - Dover
Plaistow Motorsports - Plaistow
Pompanette, LLC - Charlestown
Production Trailer + Dock - Meredith
Professional Mariner, LLC - Rye
R & R Cycles - Manchester
Ray’s Marina & RV Sales, Inc - Milton
Ray Marine, Inc. - Nashua
Rochester Motor Sports - Rochester
Rockingham Boat Repair and Sales - Hampstead
S & W Sports - Concord
Sargents Marine - Georges Mills
Shep Brown's Boat Basin - Meredith, Gilford
Ship Shape Marine Works - Meredith
Shorline CoverWorks - Laconia
SilverSands Marina - Gilford
Sonic Power Marine of New England, LLC - Weirs Beach
Sunapee Harbor Marine - Sunapee
The Trailer Outlet - Tilton
Vintage Race Boat Shop - Wolfeboro
Ward's Boat Shop - Center Ossipee
Watermark Marine Construction - Gilford
Wentworth by the Sea Marina - New Castle
West Marine - Portsmouth
Windham Marine - Windham
Winnipesaukee Motorsports - Meredith
Winnipesaukee Marine Construction - Gilford
Winnisquam Marine - Winnisquam
Y Landing Marina - Meredith

Hotels and Restaurants
Anthony's Old Style Pizzeria - Center Harbor
Apre’ Cabin rental - Carrol
Bayside Inn - Alton Bay
Beacon Resort - Lincoln
Channel Cottages - Weirs Beach
Christmas Island Resort - Laconia
Dad's Restaurant - Lincoln
Escambuit Campground - Derry
King Birch Motor Lodge - Alton Bay
Lakehurst Cottages - Alton Bay
Maria Atwood Inn B&B - Franklin
NASWA Resort - Laconia
Pinewood Motel - Bethlehem
Anchorage Restaurant - Sunapee
Brick Front Restaurant & Lounge - Laconia
Christmas Island Steak House - Laconia
Crazy Gringos Mexican Restaurant - Weirs Beach
Donna Jeans Diner - Weirs Beach
Channel Texaco Food Mart - Weirs Beach
Eagle Tavern and Grill - Newport
East Alton General Store - Alton
Fat Belly's Restaurant - Portsmouth
Handy Landing - Weirs Beach
North End Pub - New London
Olde Bay Diner - Alton Bay
Paradise Beach Club - Weirs Beach
ParkSide Grill - Milford
Patrick's Pub and Eatery - Gilford
Pier 19 - Tuftonboro
Rivier Run Deli - Alton
Shibley's at the Pier - Alton Bay
Suzies Diner - Hudson
The Bay Diner - Alton Bay
The Dockside Restaurant - Alton Bay
Truants Taverne - North Woodstock
Wayne's Market - North Woodstock
Woody’s Restaurant at Sunapee Harbor - Sunapee

Fishing Related
A J Bait Shop - Meredith
Bubba Bassin Club - Sandown
Cool Water Charters - Center Harbor
Granite State Rod & Reel Repair - Nashua
Lakes Region Bass Fishing Guide Service - Meredith
Lil' Hustler Tackle Co - Pembroke
Nothern Bass Supply - Brentwood
NH B.A.S.S. Federation
Rocky Ledge Bass Tackle - Pittsfield
The Bass Harasser - Manchester

Builders, Landscaping and Construction
Al Hoyt & Sons, Inc. - Plaistow
All Quality Constructions - Meredith
AllBright Electric co - Alton Bay
Amherst Surface Restorations Inc. - Amherst
Atlas Foundations - Salem
Aqua Lawn - Moultonboro
B & M Glass Inc - Exeter
BaySide Concrete - Alton
Belknap Mountain Construction - Laconia
Blane Building Co Of Kingston LLc - Freemont
Blane Finnish Co - Kinston
Bob Jusko Bld/Remodeling - Hampstead
Bob's Painting & Pressure Washing LLC - Laconia
Boston Enviromental - Portsmouth
Brady Sullivan Properties - Manchester
Brian David Excavation - Moultonboro
Bruce White Const. - Hampstead
Busby Construction - Atkinson
Captains Construction - Alton Bay
Capuno and Capuno Masonary - Salem
Carino Masonry - Manchester
Cedarhill Concrete - Fremont
CLD Paving - Laconia
Clearwater Builders - Tilton
Clough Contracting Co. - Fremont
Cormier Home Improvements - Epping
D & H Construction - Plaistow
Dan Snow Plumb/Heating - Sandown
Dan's Appliance - Laconia
Davco Excavating - Ossipee
Don Lamontagne Painting - Gilford
Dovetailed Kitchen - Portsmouth
Farrell Construction - Salem
Faxon Art. Wells - Sandown
Fiela Plumb/Heating - Derry
Fillmore Industries Inc - Loudon
Gilford Home Center - Gilford
Granite State Stone and Pvers - Atkinson
Hillside Restorations - West Peterborough
J & S Electric - Milton
Jameson Excavating - Atkinson
JL Construction - Sandown
Kitchen Encounters - Laconia
Lachance Landscapes - Gilford
Lakefront Contracting Co.- Alton Bay
Lakes Region Design Group - Laconia
LJC Custom Homes - Hampstead
Mancusi Builders - Hampstead
Merrill Excavating - Salem
Northvent Mechanical - Alton Bay
Plaistow Custom Cabinets - Plaistow
Planet Green Landscape, Inc. - Meredith
Prime Construction Inc - Meredith
R J Lundy Excavating - Alton
Regan Electric Co., Inc - Portsmouth
Richard Murphy Contruction - Moultonboro
Rockingham County Concrete - Fremont
Scott Compton Builder - Laconia
Taurus Landscaping - Sandown
Tiffany Lee Custom Homes - Plaistow
Timberlane Plate Glass Co. - Plaistow
Tradesmen Builders Corp. - Laconia
Two Tall Concrete - Alton
VMB Construction - Tilton
Wentworth Builders - New Castle
Wetmore Electric - Moultonboro
Wm. Bartlett & Son - Plaistow

Automotive Related
Approved Auto - Plaistow
Aranco Oil Co., Inc. - Concord
Autoserv Concord, Newport, Tilton, Plymouth
Autoserv Nissan - Tilton
Ball Brother’s Trucking - Londonderry
Ben's Auto Body - Portsmouth
Bump & Grind Auto Body - Kingston
Color Concepts - Belmont
Complete RV - Kingston
Decelles Auto Clinic Inc. - Nashua
Evergreen RV - Rochester
Exit 20 Auto + Truck - Tilton
Fitzgerald Motorsports Ic. - Laconia
Foss Motors - Exeter
Gulbicki's Towing - Weirs Beach
Harpers Motorcycle,Auto Painting - Meredith
Harpers Towing - Meredith
Jakes Transmission - Fremont
Jim's Auto Parts - Salem
KarKraft - Gilford
Kwik Stop - Hooksett
Lakes Chrysler/Jeep - Laconia
McNovick Inc - Bow
Meineke - Bedford, Merrimack
R & L Auto and Cycle - Salem
Scott Wrights Auto Body - Exeter
The Tire Loft - Portsmouth
Tilton Autobody - Tilton

Real Estate
Austin Realty - Plaistow
Bayview Forest & Development - Alton Bay
Cascades Reality Development Trust - Alton Bay
Dakota Realty - Center Harbor
DJMJ Realty Trust - Laconia
Formula Development - Center Harbor
Ganong Realty - Laconia
Gamache Enterprises - Manchester
Leisure Time Rentals - Meredith
Living New England Homes LLC - Laconia
Ryan Properties - Titlon
White Mountain Management - Meredith

Other Businesses who oppose House Bill 847
Alpha Omega Management Co. - Gilford
Alumis Enterprises - Bridgewater
Andrus Carpet - Gilmington
API Insurance - Lakeport
Ashworth Enterprises - Atkinson
Bay State Cable Ties - Gilford
Blue NYC - Portsmouth
Bresnahan Movers - Plaistow
Broadway North Dance Outfitters - Tilton
Correct Temp Inc. - Salem
Cricket Corner Woodworks - Amherst
CSD Sealing Systems - Manchester
Delia's Boutique - Portsmouth
Envision Salon - Hampstead
Eye Contact - Portsmouth
Faux Paw Pet Boutique - Meredith
FitLife Design - Alton Bay
Gary Barnes & Sons, LLC - Hampstead
Geo. Merrill & Son - Salem
Golas Bros. - Plaistow
Howard Enterprises - Derry
Identity Footwear - Portsmouth
Integrated Equipment Solutions, LLC. - Kingston
J & D Screenprinting & Embroidery - Laconia
Johnson Logging - Newport
K & S Stephens Enterprises - Milford
Karen's Gift Shop - Weirs Beach
Key Site Services - Alton Bay
Lynch & Denoncourt CPA - Laconia Manchester Wholesale Distributors Inc. - Manchester
Macro Polo - Portsmouth
MB Tractor - Tilton, Plaistow, Rumney
Medcomp Claims & Consult. - Plaistow
Montero Group - Chichecton
NE Fiberglass, LLC - Gilford
Northeast Communications Corp (WFTN, WPNH, WSCY) - Franklin
Northern Pool and Spa - Tilton
Philbricks Sales & Service - Hampton
Pixel Force - Laconia
Plaistow Trading - Plaistow
Rapid Response Marketing - Manchester
Red Brick Clothing Co - Hudson
RJ Lundy - Alton
Rock Coast Printworks - Dover
Sandown Materials - Chester
Seabrook Equipment - Seabrook
Stanley Elevator Co. - Nashua
The Art of Hair - Newton
The Eyeglass Shop - Portsmouth
The Red Carpet Salon - Laconia
The Testing & Coring company - Alton Bay
Turbotek - Manchester
Wireless Zone - Milford

And thousands of NH citizens, see testimonials page for comments from many of them.




Our state's motto that we have on every license plate means a lot to those opposing House Bill 847

[GWC...]

Wow!!!

I can hear a pin drop...

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Rose

An increased number of ANY type of watercraft is going to cause more pollution. Why don't you support a limit on the NUMBER of watercraft (of any type) allowed on the lake?

Since the subject being debated here is about a proposed law, it shouldn't be a surprise that the supporters of the proposed law be asked to prove the need for the legislation. You haven't.

When I provide a forecast, I can't just state what the weather is going to be...I have to support my reasoning behind that forecast. Otherwise, my peers are going to be all over my behind. If others question my reasoning, I can't stand there saying, "Oh, you're making a capital case over the fact that I think the US model is going to verify just because you think the European model is going to verify. Prove that you're right!!!" Guess what happens when that does happen on weather forums? The credibility of the original forecaster is diminished.

If you write a bill that limits the number of boats on the lake I might support it. I would obviously need to read it first. The big question is how do you determine who gets to boat and who doesn't. There are some National Parks that only allow limited numbers of people that have reservations. I don't think that is workable for the lake.

Eventually there will have to be more and more limits to access. Just like there are on Quabin in MA.

However I think the most fair thing is a horsepower limit. Allowing 100 15 HP boat is more reasonable than 1 1,500 HP boat.



I don't need to prove that speed limits are necessary. 236 State Reps already believe that the case for speed limits has been proved.

[hazelnut]

Initially yes I wanted to make a statement and then I wanted you to make a statement free from quoting or disputing my statement. We did that. I think we both did a good job of that.

I never said that subsequent posts fell into that category. This is a debate about an issue. Here is the problem that you are running into as I see it.

The debate revolves around a House Bill regarding a SPEED LIMIT. The people who oppose a speed limit have hard facts and statistics as to why there is no reason or need for a speed limit. In short speed is not the problem. You yourself said so.

The people who support a SPEED LIMIT have no facts or statistics to support the theory that a speed limit is necessary. The House Bill is in effect a wolf in sheep's clothing. It masks itself as a safety measure when in fact the supporters see it as a way to rid the lake of what it thinks are undesirables. You yourself stated that Go Fast Boats do not belong on the lake.

With that said you will ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS come under scrutiny for supporting a bill that is sneaky and underhanded. It is a form of discrimination. You support a bill that is discriminatory in nature. That is a fact. If you can live with that, fine. Personally when it comes to lawmaking we should not allow emotion to dictate protocol. I take this very serious. When a law is made based solely on the idea that we can get rid of something that a few people "don't like," based on no supportive fact it worries me. If this law passes it only paves the way for more silly laws.

By the way, you have no comment on the "list?"

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

The debate revolves around a House Bill regarding a SPEED LIMIT. The people who oppose a speed limit have hard facts and statistics as to why there is no reason or need for a speed limit.

Just because now one has been killed or hurt by a highspeed powerboat is not proof that high speed boats are not creating a dangerous problem on the lake.

And the data that was collected last summer by the marine patrol is not proof that speed isn't a problem on Winni. (During those 11 weeks speed was only recorded during less than 2% of the daylight hours, on on select portions of the lake, and that fact that speeds were being recorded, as well as the 2 main areas were well publicized). According to everything I know about data collection (and I have taken a university course in research methodology, last summers MP study was not what any expert would consider to be a viable study.

There's another major factor: [b]No agency keeps track of close calls.[b/] I have had close calls with high-speed boats on Winni (that were going faster then 45 and that came way closer than 150 feet frome me). Others have stated that they have had similar close calls.

And here is a hard fact: The faster you are going, the further you will travel in the time that it takes you to react. That is a safey issue. I have had my 150 foot zone violated because the operators were traveling faster than their ability to see me.

For me and for many others this is ONLY about safety. Yet when I state my reasons here, I'm accused of exagerating or even of lying. I'm told that I must not be a very good judge of speed or of distance (when I happen to be an excellent judge of both).

I have only spoken to 4 MPs about a lake speed limit law, but all 4 wanted a lake speed limit. When that previous bill was in the House (which would have enacted a speed limit on all NH waters) I spoke with 2 Coast Guard officers, and they both were in favor of the bill. Both the MP and the CG members told me that they saw a speed limit law as a "necessary tool".

This is not about pushing any type of boat off the lake - it is about slower the fastest boats down to a safer speed. Fast boats do not belong on the lake - unless their operaters are willing to slow down. 45 mph is a fast speed on water. In my opinion, if you feel like you need to go faster than that, go to the coast. It is not all that far away.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

The people who support a SPEED LIMIT have no facts or statistics to support the theory that a speed limit is necessary.

United States Coast Guard

BOATING STATISTICS 2006

Executive Summary

The number of boating deaths, injuries and property damage increased
for the second consecutive year and when compared to 2005 are as follows:
710 deaths vs. 697; 3,474 injuries vs. 3,451; and $43,670,424 in
property damage vs. $38,721,088.

Overall, two-thirds of all fatal boating accident victims drowned. Of those
who drowned, ninety (90) percent of the victims were not wearing their life
jacket. Eight out of every ten boaters who drowned were using boats less
than 20 feet in length.

Consistent with previous years, 70% of reported fatalities occurred on
boats where the operator had not received boating safety instruction.

Operator inattention, carelessness/reckless operation, excessive speed,
and no proper lookout are the primary contributing factors in all reported
accidents.


Go ahead and spin that. And please note that 3 of the 4 contributing factors are already against the law on Winni. Only speed is unregulated.

And I never said speed is not the problem, please don't misquote me.

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

United States Coast Guard

BOATING STATISTICS 2006

Executive Summary {snip}
Operator inattention, carelessness/reckless operation, excessive speed,
and no proper lookout are the primary contributing factors in all reported
accidents.

Go ahead and spin that. And please note that 3 of the 4 contributing factors are already against the law on Winni. Only speed is unregulated.

And I never said speed is not the problem, please don't misquote me.

Excuse me Bear Islander, I know your penchant for wanting to know the details behind the data. How is was that data obtained? Did you find out? Did the USCG data mention the speeds? Did they say what number were in speed controlled water? Did the data include LAKES? I imagine you would want to know answers to these and other data gathering criteria. I sure do.

"Excessive speed" does NOT in any way mean faster than 45 mph day or 25 mph night, does it? I believe it means excessive for the conditions and circumstances. Either way, there are NO NUMBERS (= no speed limits) in the data you posted.

Speed is indeed regulated on Lake Winnipesaukee. The quotes and RSAs have been posted several times. DO they include the numbers 25/45? as if 44 mph is OK and 46 mph is all of a sudden dangerous (exaggerated a bit to help make a point). On Winnipesaukee I believe the current law is more is more realistic. Excessive for the circumstances.

I've been quiet on the speed limit issue for quite awhile but now I feel I need to add my thoughts on this subject.

Anyway, BI. Do you know how the Coast Guard data was gathered and how does it relate to our Lake Winnipesaukee situation? I'm all for safety but I don't see speed limits (specific numbers) as a magic cure for any of the 4 primary factors contributing to reported accidents.

[Lakegeezer]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Operator inattention, carelessness/reckless operation, excessive speed, and no proper lookout are the primary contributing factors in all reported accidents.

Go ahead and spin that. And please note that 3 of the 4 contributing factors are already against the law on Winni. Only speed is unregulated.

And I never said speed is not the problem, please don't misquote me.

OK BI, here is some spin, per your request. Excessive speed does not mean exceeding 45. The last time I dinged my prop, excessive speed was the cause. I was going 6 when I should have been going 2. Then I could have stopped in time when my look-out saw the rock.

What is your motivation for pushing for a speed-limit rather than against excessive speed? Safe boating demands that speed be related to conditions of the weather, water and traffic. When you use the term "excessive speed" to justify a speed limit, that is spinning the report in an unjustified way. Speed is already regulated in the careless/reckless rules, and that is no spin. Defining 45+ as careless/reckless is what the fight is about. 45 can be too fast - but so can 6.

[Alton Bay]

Stupid questions...Maybe someone here can answer them for me.
If your boat is old and has no speedometer, how do you know you now what speed you are traveling?
Also, has anyone ever considered the folks who will take up the job of policing the lake and calling in folks they consider are speeding. #1 How will MP deal with it with the small squad they have on Winni and #2 How can anyone determine, without a radar gun, what 46+ mph is? How many MP folks are normally out on a Sunday in July?

[fatlazyless]

On Winnipesaukee, the MP has those three 27' military style, combo aluminum-rib interceptors, powered by twin Merc 150 two-strokes, two marked & one unmarked. Mostly, they just slowly cruise around at about 1/4 power, just being present, visible, and available in case something happens. They like to set up and wait in some likely spot, behind a little island or around a bend, and anticipate for something to happen. It's called law enforcement.

Bingo, you're it.....got you! Out on the water, you can always run, but you can't hide. Where you gonna run to?


Let's see...in Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, or New Jersey....first speed violation=loss of your good driver's discount which stays on your record for three years...and costs maybe $500./year in higher insurance. How much is 3 x 500, plus the $88 NH fine?

[Hottrucks]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

. Why not use excessive speed as the limit on route 93? Because it will not work, that's why.


?

They do next time it's snow drive by a State trouper going 65 and see what it gets you..............

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Bingo, you're it.....got you! Out on the water, you can always run, but you can't hide. Where you gonna run to?


Let's see...in Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, or New Jersey....first speed violation=loss of your good driver's discount which stays on your record for three years...and costs maybe $500./year in higher insurance. How much is 3 x 500, plus the $88 NH fine?

First off IF they hunt you down there is no way for them to prove who was driving ......thank you have a nice day....

second the new laws keep things on your record for 7 years......

[hazelnut]

Bear Islander,

The burden of proof lies squarely on your and the supporters shoulders. It's not up to me to provide hypothetical situations in which speed might be a factor.

You go ahead and list all the fatal accidents or accidents that involved injury in the state of New Hampshire that involved a boat traveling in excess of the arbitrary magic number of 45MPH. That is your burden not mine. I'm not the one trying to pass a law. I just want the MP to enforce the existing laws that are designed with safety in mind. Not some random 45MPH limit that is based on nothing.

[fatlazyless]

Snowmobiles have a New Hampshire land speed limit of 45mph, and snowmos even have brakes, & groomed trails, which boats do not have. After HB847 is law, snowmos will continue to not have a speed limit on Winnipesaukee, so's at least you'll still be able to run that snowmo up to 125mph, if you want. Got to be an optimist, here!

236-111.....14-10......hut-hut-hut....hike!!!

[nightrider]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Snowmobiles have a New Hampshire land speed limit of 45mph, and snowmos even have brakes, & groomed trails, which boats do not have. After HB847 is law, snowmos will continue to not have a speed limit on Winnipesaukee, so's at least you'll still be able to run that snowmo up to 125mph, if you want. Got to be an optimist, here!

236-111.....14-10......hut-hut-hut....hike!!!

Unfortunately, once the boat speed limit is passed, it will only be a matter of time before the "take-your-freedom-away" crowd go after the sleds on the lake. It's like they can't help themselves. If there's not an active issue they can work on to restrict others' activities, then they're not happy.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Bear Islander,

The burden of proof lies squarely on your and the supporters shoulders. It's not up to me to provide hypothetical situations in which speed might be a factor.

You go ahead and list all the fatal accidents or accidents that involved injury in the state of New Hampshire that involved a boat traveling in excess of the arbitrary magic number of 45MPH. That is your burden not mine. I'm not the one trying to pass a law. I just want the MP to enforce the existing laws that are designed with safety in mind. Not some random 45MPH limit that is based on nothing.

Spin, Spin, Spin... now they must be fatal or involve injury... see what I mean. And why not over 25 mph at night? that is what HB847 is.

However the real problem is proving the speed. The Marine Patrol does not list specific speeds in boating accidents. Even if they did the argument is that those speeds are "only estimates". I have been down this road before.

I don't need to prove anything. 236 to 111

The truth is there have been many serious or fatal accidents, on Winni and off. Real people are really dead. But the opposition closes its eyes to every one.

[hazelnut]

SPIN???

You are a riot!! Ok name ANY!!!! ANY ANY ANY ACCIDENT that involved over 45 during the day and over 25 at night.... HA HA HA SPIN?!?!?!? HA HA HA HA. You lose credibility with every post BI. I'm really at a loss for words to describe your inability to debate a subject based on facts.


FLL,

GREAT POINT. I bet we could find far more speed related fatalities on Snow Mobiles. However no cry for a speed limit because Bear Islander and other special interest groups aren't ascared or bothered by snowmobiles.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

OK BI, here is some spin, per your request. Excessive speed does not mean exceeding 45. The last time I dinged my prop, excessive speed was the cause. I was going 6 when I should have been going 2. Then I could have stopped in time when my look-out saw the rock.

What is your motivation for pushing for a speed-limit rather than against excessive speed? Safe boating demands that speed be related to conditions of the weather, water and traffic. When you use the term "excessive speed" to justify a speed limit, that is spinning the report in an unjustified way. Speed is already regulated in the careless/reckless rules, and that is no spin. Defining 45+ as careless/reckless is what the fight is about. 45 can be too fast - but so can 6.

I am pushing for HB847 because it is better than the nothing we have now. Just saying excessive speed leaves things to open to interpretation. Every ticket would have to be a huge argument. Why not use excessive speed as the limit on route 93? Because it will not work, that's why.


Hazelnut -

Limiting it to one lake creates to small a statistical universe. Why does the double fatality on Long Lake last summer not apply? If you want to exclude that accident you should tell me why it could not have happened on Winni.

Why stop at limiting it to Winni. Someone in Winter Harbor might argue that there has never been a serious accident in Winter Harbor, therefore it should have no speed limit. But WH is not a good example I guess since there was a fatal boating accident there last summer.

BTW HB847 applies to all the lakes in NH. The attached amendment the opposition wanted fixes it to Winni only. The Senate can pass HB847 and NOT the amendment if they choose.

Back to my limitations. There are still two questions open. You can't just say "involve speed", I didn't just fall off a turnip truck! What speed? 45/25? And how do we know what the speed of the boats actually were. Otherwise you will wiggle out with the "please prove the boat was going 90 mph exactly" crap. If a report, newspaper article etc says about XX mph, is that good enough?

[Rose]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I don't need to prove that speed limits are necessary. 236 State Reps already believe that the case for speed limits has been proved.

How many federal Reps and Senators believed that there was a case for going into Iraq based on inaccurate intelligence(I'm being kind...I think it was intentionally false)? Just because a large quantity of people believe in something doesn't make it true.

The main problem I have with your position is that it's discriminatory. Of all the watercraft on the lake, I like GFBL boats least of all, but I don't want to start banning certain watercraft from the lake just because I don't happen to like them, for whatever the reason.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Rose

The main problem I have with your position is that it's discriminatory. Of all the watercraft on the lake, I like GFBL boats least of all, but I don't want to start banning certain watercraft from the lake just because I don't happen to like them, for whatever the reason.

Rose, I could not agree more with you. The battle cry from those who oppose the bill has to be just that. It discriminates.

Deep down inside I believe that the perfect boat for Lake Winnepesaukee is a 21-27 footer. Preferably a runabout style or bowrider. I just don't see why someone would want a 100MPH boat on a landlocked body of water. I mean eventually you just run out of real estate. I am also not a huge fan of PWC's most of the older ones are noisy and they pollute. The newer ones are ok but when you get a gang of them together it can get chaotic out there.

With that said I do not believe in laws that single out either one of those classes of water vehicle. I think it flat out reeks when the interests of one group of complainers can dictate a policy that is based on nothing more than inflamatory, misleading statements. Point blank this law is targeted at the big fast boats hoping that they will leave the lake if this becomes law. It has absolutely no merit with regard to increasing safety on the lake. Speed has not been proven to be a factor on Lake Winnipesaukee in any statistics regarding injury or death. This is legislature against fiberglass and horsepower nothing more!

[Alton Bay]

I read with interest all the points being taken on both sides of the debate. However, the fact is, the House has passed a speed limit bill. I have to wonder how many legislators have ever even been to the Lake? Rather than beat this issue to death, have people been contacting their state senators? They hold the speed limit bill in their hands. Does anyone know where they stand?
Last time I checked we all have to have boater certification certificates by this summer. We should all know about the safe passage law, bwi and other issues. Rentals remain an huge issue in my mind.
Also, interesting that most Alton businesses do not support a speed limit. Ask them ( and Alton residents) if they support a noise limit and they would say "yes" and... you know what?? We have a law regarding noise. Is it enforced?? I can tell you it's very noisy in Alton (maybe cuz it's narrow?) and it certainly isn't just from GFLB. Let's enforce the laws on the books.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Alton Bay

I read with interest all the points being taken on both sides of the debate. However, the fact is, the House has passed a speed limit bill. I have to wonder how many legislators have ever even been to the Lake? Rather than beat this issue to death, have people been contacting their state senators? They hold the speed limit bill in their hands. Does anyone know where they stand?
Last time I checked we all have to have boater certification certificates by this summer. We should all know about the safe passage law, bwi and other issues. Rentals remain an huge issue in my mind.
Also, interesting that most Alton businesses do not support a speed limit. Ask them ( and Alton residents) if they support a noise limit and they would say "yes" and... you know what?? We have a law regarding noise. Is it enforced?? I can tell you it's very noisy in Alton (maybe cuz it's narrow?) and it certainly isn't just from GFLB. Let's enforce the laws on the books.

Contacting Senators may not be as effective as contacting Representatives. Reps are supposed to vote the way they feel thier constituents would vote; they are the voice of the people and are not supposed to vote with their own opinion. If they do, they are not necessarily representing us. Senators are supposed to vote based the "correctness" of the bill, not the popular opinion. They are supposed to be the voice of reason in these situations, just in case the popular opinion is bad. Some feel we need more government control than we presently have, some think we need less.

My gut says the current majority in the Senate would LOVE to pass a law that takes away accountability from us and gives power to the state, especially if it costs money to implement. Count on this bill passing, regardless of what you tell your Senator. With luck, our Governer will veto the bill if it does pass, and perhaps we can get rid of some of the folks in the House and Senate that seek to add dumb laws before the next poorly-thought-out speed limit bill is introduced.

If you seek to blame anyone after this bill passes, blame the GOP, the very folks who generally oppose the bill. The GOP irritated the US population so much recently that folks voted them out and voted in the sort of people that seek to add laws and spend money.

FWIW, I oppose THIS speed limit bill. 45 is really slow, I've exceeded it several times on a bicycle (Pingree Hill Road). If a need for a reasonable speed limit is ever proven, I would not oppose it. 25 or 30 at night seems like a good idea, I have no issue with that, but then I've never seen anyone exceed it either, unless it was brightly moonlit. I also strongly support strict noise law enforcement, I really dislike loud boats, cars and motorcylces. Loud jet fighters rock though...

[Bear Islander]

Two weeks ago I rode a centrifuge at the National Astronautics and Space Training Center up to 6 gravities. But I did not experience half the spin I get on this forum.

It starts when an opponent posts there are "no statistics" or "no accidents" then they are shown the statistics and reminded of the accidents. Next comes the long list of excuses why those stats do not apply. A short period of silence, the it starts again with "no statistics" "no accidents".





Two years ago the house voted for HB162 .... what a bunch of idiots! ..... violating our rights! ... never been to the lake!.....

A few weeks later the Senate voted down HB162 .... responsible, intelligent leaders! .... informed, thoughtful representation!... they know what our lake needs!

Two weeks ago the house voted for HB847 .... what a bunch of idiots! ..... violating our rights! ... never been to the lake!.....

If the Senate passes HB847, will that mean they suddenly became stupid and irresponsible??

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

If the Senate passes HB847, will that mean they suddenly became stupid and irresponsible??

No, they just became mostly Democrats. It's really a partisan issue. If it was a safety issue, it would have passed the Senate the last time.

[fatlazyless]

Not to worry...even if the senate does the unthinkable and passes HB847 sometime soon......Gov John Lynch will be right there with his veto stamp and he'll most definately pound HB847 with a VETO. Go Gov Lynch, go buddy!

[hazelnut]

[QUOTE=Bear Islander;63119]... I did not experience half the spin I get on this forum..It starts when an opponent posts there are "no statistics" or "no accidents" then they are shown the statistics and reminded of the accidents. Next comes the long list of excuses why those stats do not apply. A short period of silence, the it starts again with "no statistics" "no accidents".


Bear Islander: Seriously? Again you baffle the forum. Please site the statistics that directly apply to lake Winnipesaukee. After all this Bill directly applies to Lake Winnipesaukee so you should easily be able to cite and provide the statistics and accidents that occurred on Lake Winnipesaukee that were a direct result of speed. Go for it. I wait with baited breath. If you do not reply to this direct request I will refer to this as a "short period of silence" while you research and find NOTHING!

You have officially lost all credibility in my eyes. I know that means nothing to you but it is a shame because you had so much promise for your "side" of the argument. Now.... your ball my friend, provide those "accidents" and "statistics" on LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE that were a direct result of speed. HA HA HA HA HA HA YOU CAN'T!!!!!!

[Bear Islander]

The spin starts already, they have to be on Winnipesaukee. Why? Do you think there is some magic that protects people on this lake? And what speed does it have to be in excess of? Does it have to be boat to boat? Day? Night? Can alcohol be involved? How long ago still applies? What if the speed can not be EXACTLY determined beyond any doubt?

Give me all the parameters now so I can save time.

[hazelnut]

Gee I guess you're right Bear Islander.

Can you please state which lake the HB in question refers to? Yeah I'm spinnin it allllright. The HB in question sets a speed limit on ONE LAKE and ONE LAKE ONLY. Which one you ask.... Well I'lls tells yas... LAKE WINNI.. What's that you say? Yup Lake Winneeeepesaukeeeeee. Well sir should we only discuss stats and incidents on the body of water in question. GOOD QUESTION meeee friend???? Well sir, accordin to one side of the argument we should throw in every incident on theeee continental US of A. But why's that pa? Well sir, it bolsters that there argument to slap a good ole speed limit on that there lake. But pa, that don' make no sense? Well junior it ought to make no sense, it only has to make sense to those folk who wanna make it make sense. Huh? Ya see Junior, Them folk who wanna speed limit wanna figur out a way to make the stats fith their agenda.......

I could go on but.. Nah. Bear Isle??? You are reachin and grabbin. Good luck to ya.

[Hottrucks]

Originally Posted by Rose

I like GFBL boats least of all, but I don't want to start banning certain watercraft from the lake just because I don't happen to like them, for whatever the reason.

Didn't this happen already with the ban of jet ski's on weekends for a certian lakes and ponds???

the answer is "YES" incase you didn't know or haven't left winnie in awhile

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

If tourism dollars are down in recent years at Lake Winnipesaukee it has nothing to do with fear of being run over by a fast boat. Simply put it's the economy. We entertain often on weekends up here and have never, not once been told by family or friends that they are afraid to be out on the lake. I take that back...we've been out on the broads on a particullarly choppy day and my mother did turn green. I have walked among BI and his cronies and they do indeed in my humble opinion want to see a certain type of boat/s taken off the lake. Are they using the speed rationale as their smoke screen? That I can't answer but do have my opinion. Do I get shot dirty looks and glaring stares when I take my shiny new pwc over to BI to pick up relatives to come back to our house?? Yes, quiet often.

I just did a mental calculation. My neighbor to the left has a PWC, as do 4 of the next 7 to the right. That is 5 out of 8 homes with a PWC. To be honest I'm sure that is way over the average. It could be those stares are envy, we love water sports on BI.

Next time you walk among us, please say hello.

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

Places on "the list" won't miss a family here and there, because they are not represented by a group. The WinnFabs tricked businesses to sign on during their well funded marketing campaign. Many who signed probably thought they were signing up for safety - not revenge. You really can't blame them. They are fooling a lot of folks on this forum too.

Lakegeezer,

I think you are correct in most cases. However, there are some businesses listed that are driving this discriminatory bill. I will certainly stay away from them, but I am sure they will not be hurt from it. I do not think it is right to deceive people in an attempt to get a certain group off the lake. That is un-American and so very wrong. How these people can live like that is beyond me.

When you think about it, the package of misinformation and hidden agendas had to have an impact on elected members of the House as well. I believe the Representatives were, in many cases, voting for the bill because of the impact the misinformation had on people in their district, making those without direct experience on the lake to think this was all about safety. Who can be against safety? When so many people contact a Rep, the Rep has to listen.

Contacting State Senators to let them know what has come out recently in this forum is very important. I believe the Senators are more educated about the situation than the Reps were, but you never know.

R2B

[JDeere]

I have to thank BI for keeping a level head and keeping to the facts without getting personal!!