Lt. Dunleavy, NHMP, responds.... - Page 2

Bear Islander · 02-08-2008, 08:04 PM

Those Nashua islanders should have bought themselves a big twin engine fire boat, portable Indian Pumps and received firefighting training like the residents of Bear Island did.

hazelnut · 02-08-2008, 08:05 PM

jrc,

Excellent post. It further solidifies my point. Imagine that Bear Islander? A foolish law enacted preventing us from using our Island Homes? Based on fear mongering and no real fact? People dreaming up scenarios that "could" or "might" happen.

GWC... · 02-08-2008, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I can love a wildflower, but when one grows in my lawn I will kill it. That doesn't mean I hate it, it's just in the wrong place.

This is your idea of compromising with Nature?

Sounds like your idea of compromise with the proponents is the old saying, "My way or the highway! (and good riddance)"

P.S.- Lady Bird would very disappointed in your viewpoint toward wildflowers.

Bear Islander · 02-08-2008, 08:24 PM

Sorry, not a good analogy at all. You have already admitted a problem exists on the lake, we only differ on the solution.

Remember earlier in this thread when Dick posted..

"Any camp director who would allow the kids to swim beyond the swim line buoys or take a canoe out onto the big lake should be fired immediately."

It seems like Dick also sees the danger.

If I ever get an inkling that living on the island is endangering my child, I will leave immediately, no legislation will be required.

Cal · 02-08-2008, 08:55 PM

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out even if there were no other boats on the lake , simply for the rescue distance in case of a mishap.

Rose · 02-08-2008, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Many high performance boats are beautiful, I even like the sound (except late at night) but if they disrupt children's camps, pollute my drinking water or endanger tourism, then they need to go.

I have explained to you the damage I believe the increasing numbers of larger faster boats are doing to the lake I love. I'm sorry, but it's time to go.

Please provide proof that performance boats are polluting the drinking water any more than other motorized watercraft. For that matter, prove that they pollute the water more than waterfront homes and businesses.

With regard to affecting tourism, I've seen a proportionate number of every motorized type having a negative effect on my boating experience. Where is your proof that performance boats are affecting tourism at a disproportionate rate?

Bear Islander · 02-08-2008, 09:26 PM

Our emergency response time is good. Several 911 calls have been made from the island in recent years, one from our home. The Marine Patrol usually arrives first, the fire boat is not far behind. There must be many homes in Meredith and the surrounding area, that due to their remote location have longer response times than the islands. From the Fire Station to my cabin is less than four miles.

hazelnut · 02-08-2008, 09:29 PM

So we agree there is a problem of congestion, and dangerous behavior right?

Let's simplify the debate even further:

Bear Islander and all supporters of the HB in question please answer a simple yes or no to the following question. No adjective, description, comment, argument just a simple y/n or if you prefer yes/no.

The biggest problem on the lake today is that boats are speeding. Yes or No

My answer = NO!

Bear Islander · 02-08-2008, 09:35 PM

No

.....

jrc · 02-08-2008, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Those Nashua islanders should have bought themselves a big twin engine fire boat, portable Indian Pumps and received firefighting training like the residents of Bear Island did.

Or they could repair the access, like they did. But of course that's not the point.

BTW you do realize that acording to the USCG, NH boat registrations have been nearly flat or decreasing over the last few years. So the overcrowding rational is bunk. There are only about 2% more boats today than 5 years ago.

Bear Islander · 02-08-2008, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

Or they could repair the access, like they did. But of course that's not the point.

BTW you do realize that acording to the USCG, NH boat registrations have been nearly flat or decreasing over the last few years. So the overcrowding rational is bunk. There are only about 2% more boats today than 5 years ago.

The lake was overcrowded 5 years ago. We have been arguing speed limits for 3. And a 2% increase is an increase.

How have the registration of longer boats changed?

If I sold my bow rider and purchased a Nor-Tech last year, how does that effect those numbers? IT DOESN'T!

hazelnut · 02-08-2008, 09:58 PM

Bear Islander,

I do appreciate your honesty. I believe you are a reasonable person who is frustrated with the state of things on the lake. We share common ground with regard to our feelings about safety on the lake. As you have stated we just disagree on the solution. I do not expect to convert you. It's a shame it has come to this. I know you think that there is a light at the end of the tunnel with a speed limit. I really do not believe that a speed limit will solve anything. Education and enforcement is the answer.

Side note: is this truly a partisan issue? Are you a democrat

Bear Islander · 02-08-2008, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rose

Please provide proof that performance boats are polluting the drinking water any more than other motorized watercraft. For that matter, prove that they pollute the water more than waterfront homes and businesses.

With regard to affecting tourism, I've seen a proportionate number of every motorized type having a negative effect on my boating experience. Where is your proof that performance boats are affecting tourism at a disproportionate rate?

First, I never made that claim. But more importantly, why don't YOU prove that performance boats pollute less.

The proof that tourism is being effected is in the below list of speed limit supporters. You will note many are tourist related. There are even several marinas in there. Including marinas that sell large fast boats.

The Common Man
Ashalnd Insurance
Strictly Rentals
Wild Meadow Canoes and Kayaks
Centre Harbor Cellars
Center Harbor Inn
AMC (Appalachian Mountain Club)
NH Audubon
New Hampshire Lakes Association (NHLA)
Decker Machinery Company
The Architectural Studio
Fay’s Boat Yard
Birch Island Camp Association
Gilford Islands Association (GIA)
Jolly Island Association
Lockes Island Association
Belknap Landscaping Company
Design Quest
DK Net Design
E&S Insurance LLC
The Hair Factory
Mike’s Ala Carte Catering
Pepi Herrmann Crystal, Inc.
Glendale Marine
River Edge Marina
Squam Lakes Association (SLA)
Cottage Place on Squam Lake
Squam Lake Inn
Me Designs
Barrons Billiards
Blooms Vanity
J&J Printing
LaBelles Shoe Store
Central & Northern Title
Haughey, Philpot & Laurent
Lakeside Hotel Assoc.
Sundial Shops
Paugus Bay Marina
Best Western Silver Fox Inn
Griffin Bodi Krause
Municipal Resources, Inc.
Great Northern Trading Co
Meredith Marina
Y-Landing
Bear Island Conservation Association (BICA)
East Bear Island Conservation Association
AMC- 3 Mile Island
Winnipesaukee Rowing Club
Alexandria Lamp Shop
Case N’ Keg
Chris Dupont Painting
Christopher P. Williams, Architects
Eisenberg Chiropractic
Hawkins Photography
Hobo Railroad
Landscapes By Tom
League of NH Craftsmen
Mastiff Builders
Omni Signs
Patricia’s “Specially for You”
Pemi Glass Company
Pretty Petunias Garden Center
Remax Bay Side Real Estate
Remcon/North
Sagecliff Software, Inc.
The Village Perk
Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad
GASCO Realty, LLC
51 Main Street, LLc
Inns & Spa at Mill Falls
Meredith Bay Painting
The Lake House Grille
Lago
Camp
Town Docks Restaurant
Mame's
The Gallery at Mill Falls
Oglethorp
Guiseppies Resturant
Northern Air Trading
Lady of the Lake Clothing
Adorments
Creative Clothing
Christopher P. Williams, Architect
Oak Street Associates
Old Mill Insurance
Innisfree Bookstore
Phoenix Leasing, Inc.
Silver Top Ventures
Minuteman Plumbing & Heating
Sava Designs
Horn Insurance
Harts Restaurant
Fermentation Station LLC
Hunter's
Waukewan Antiques
Village Greenery
Etcetera Shop
Associated Surveyors
Moulton Farm
Barber Pole Association
Trexler’s Marina
Land’s End
Wyman Trail Association
Loon Preservation Committee
1st T Development Corporation
The Woodshed Restaurant
Castle in the Clouds
Amoskeg Insurance
EPTAM Plastics
The Common Man Inn
Corner House Inn
Seacoast Kayak
Tilton Veterinary Hospital
Waterville Valley Condo Rental
Thurston’s Marina
Lighthouse Inn
Weirs Beach Motel and Cottages
Van's Hotel Enterprises
Wolfboro Inn
Island Real Estate of New Hampshire
LB Boat Restoration
Millie B
Wolfeboro Trolley Company
Wolfetrap Restaurant

Bear Islander · 02-08-2008, 10:02 PM

No

...

hazelnut · 02-08-2008, 10:38 PM

While that list represents individual businesses that support the Speed Limit it absolutely DOES NOT represent PROOF that tourism is being affected by fast boats. That my friend is one gigantic leap.

Bear Islander · 02-08-2008, 10:52 PM

The point is not if they think tourism if effected by fast boats.

The point is that they support a speed limit. And that, in my opinion, constitutes all the proof necessary. Many of these business are run by good old American Yankees, (the good kind, not the baseball kind). They know which side of the bread is buttered (and other euphemisms like that).

jrc · 02-08-2008, 11:16 PM

I'll finish this up then bow out of this thread until new data arrives. I will never convince BI and he will not scare me. It's like trying to convince my wife that polar bears don't eat penquins. They look so tasty why wouldn't they eat them.

That's the list of places that supported HB -161 three years ago, that is not a list of places who currently support a speed limit.

So to finish lets look at the last twenty years. The boat registrations in NH grew about 2% a year since 1988. Around 2002 they flatenned and then started shrinking about 2% a year. This is also true at the national level. (don't buy boat stocks) There are now double the amount of PWC sold as in 1988. Since PWC are a large portion of the total number of registered boats, I would have to reason that there has to be less non-pwc boats. Otherwise we would have more total growth.

I don't know what a Nor-tech is, I'm into comfort not speed. The USCG stats do differentiate between engine type and length but the stats are presented differently each year so trends are hard to follow. If you get past banning fast boats and get to banning big boats, it might be worth the trouble to ferret out the data and plot it.

Now maybe the USCG fudged all this data just so they can get jobs in the boating industry. Sounds silly, huh?

WeirsBeachBoater · 02-08-2008, 11:26 PM

Here is how I dissect this list.

See the bold for explanation, My favorite is how all the Great American dining establishments are listed individually. There are 6 Alex Ray places, that should only count once! Many others in Bold are tenants of Rusty McClear, and I asked at least one when this list came out why they were on it. I was told she didn't feel she had a choice!

I could go on and on. But the bottom line is this list is a joke, most of it is repeats, and some businesses didn't even know they were listed. If anyone wants I can go into more details!

The Common Man 1.
Ashalnd Insurance
Strictly Rentals
Wild Meadow Canoes and Kayaks
Centre Harbor Cellars
Center Harbor Inn
AMC (Appalachian Mountain Club)
NH Audubon
New Hampshire Lakes Association (NHLA)
Decker Machinery Company
The Architectural Studio
Fay’s Boat Yard
Birch Island Camp Association
Gilford Islands Association (GIA)
Jolly Island Association
Lockes Island Association
Belknap Landscaping Company
Design Quest
DK Net Design
E&S Insurance LLC
The Hair Factory
Mike’s Ala Carte Catering
Pepi Herrmann Crystal, Inc.
Glendale Marine
River Edge Marina
Squam Lakes Association (SLA)
Cottage Place on Squam Lake
Squam Lake Inn
Me Designs
Barrons Billiards
Blooms Vanity
J&J Printing
LaBelles Shoe Store
Central & Northern Title
Haughey, Philpot & Laurent
Lakeside Hotel Assoc.
Sundial Shops
Paugus Bay Marina
Best Western Silver Fox Inn
Griffin Bodi Krause
Municipal Resources, Inc.
Great Northern Trading Co Rusty tenant
Meredith Marina
Y-Landing = Were not aware they were listed. Call them and ask now!
Bear Island Conservation Association (BICA)
East Bear Island Conservation Association
AMC- 3 Mile Island
Winnipesaukee Rowing Club
Alexandria Lamp Shop
Case N’ Keg
Chris Dupont Painting
Christopher P. Williams, Architects
Eisenberg Chiropractic
Hawkins Photography

Landscapes By Tom
League of NH Craftsmen
Mastiff Builders
Omni Signs
Patricia’s “Specially for You”
Pemi Glass Company
Pretty Petunias Garden Center
Remax Bay Side Real Estate
Remcon/North
Sagecliff Software, Inc.
The Village Perk
Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad + Hobo Railroad Same owner!!!!!
GASCO Realty, LLC
51 Main Street, LLc
Inns & Spa at Mill Falls Rusty again
Meredith Bay Painting
The Lake House Grille 2.
Lago 3.
Camp 4.
Town Docks Restaurant 5. Alex ray
Mame's
The Gallery at Mill Falls Rusty again
Oglethorp
Guiseppies Resturant Felt threatened by landlord (Ask Julie I did)
Northern Air Trading
Lady of the Lake Clothing
Adorments Rusty tenants
Creative Clothing
Christopher P. Williams, Architect
Oak Street Associates
Old Mill Insurance
Innisfree Bookstore Rusty tenant
Phoenix Leasing, Inc. Another Rusty McClear partner!
Silver Top Ventures Principal Office Address: Mill Falls Marketplace
312 Daniel Webster Highway
Meredith NH 03253 Wonder who that could be??? Rusty you sneak
Minuteman Plumbing & Heating
Sava Designs
Horn Insurance
Harts Restaurant
Fermentation Station LLC
Hunter's
Waukewan Antiques
Village Greenery
Etcetera Shop
Associated Surveyors
Moulton Farm
Barber Pole Association
Trexler’s Marina
Land’s End
Wyman Trail Association
Loon Preservation Committee
1st T Development Corporation
The Woodshed Restaurant
Castle in the Clouds
Amoskeg Insurance
EPTAM Plastics
The Common Man Inn 6. Guess who? Alex again
Corner House Inn
Seacoast Kayak
Tilton Veterinary Hospital
Waterville Valley Condo Rental
Thurston’s Marina
Lighthouse Inn
Weirs Beach Motel and Cottages
Van's Hotel Enterprises
Wolfboro Inn
Island Real Estate of New Hampshire
LB Boat Restoration

Wolfeboro Trolley Company+Millie B Same Owner!!!!
Wolfetrap Restaurant

Bear Islander · 02-08-2008, 11:29 PM

I have no doubt polar bears would eat penguins if they didn't live on opposite ends of the earth.

Bear Islander · 02-08-2008, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

... the bottom line is this list is a joke...

The list may be a joke, but the joke is on you.

I only copied the list, I will take no responsibility for it. I suggest you go to the source and complain to them. I copied it from OffShoreOnly.com the performance boating site where the opposition hangs out.

Resident 2B · 02-08-2008, 11:41 PM

Regarding the list of supporters.....

Now I know where I will no longer spend any of my money, regardless of the final outcome.

Thanks so much for this list. It is key to the future activities of my family, and I hope many other families.

It is too bad that Mame's is listed. We have been going there once a week for years, but we will never go there again.

Hart’s has also been a place for us to go very often, but we will not go there any more either.

I will print this list and hang it on the refrigerator with "Do Not Support" as a heading.

I refuse to do business with any business that lacks any common sense regarding safe boating on the lake. Speed limits do not address the real safety problems that exist on the lake. Boneheads, disregarding the existing rules, including the well designed 150” rule, are the real safety issue. This bill does nothing to address these irresponsible operators.

WinnFab's agenda is not about safety at all. Instead, the WinnFabs agenda is all about restricting boaters that happen to own a certain type of boat. To me, this is not something that we Americans should be supporting, as it is imposing restrictions on a certain group because another group does not like them. Whatever happened to freedom, something that was at the root of our country's beginning? There are no facts to support any of WinnFab’s claims that speed is a factor in safety or in accidents on our lake.

I would have hoped the local business on the list had more sense than to support this predatory bill. But since these businesses have openly supported this bill, we now know what we have to do. If you are in favor of real safe boating on the lake and are not supporting HB-847, please join me in a 100% boycott of these businesses. Their actions in supporting this bill tell me they are irrational in their business decisions. Therefore, they should not be supported by people that realize what the real safety issues are on the lake.

In this case, money should talk and BS should walk. Do not support any business that intends to restrict your personal freedom because of fabricated and embelished reasons that have no basis in fact. WinnFabs can fool some of the people all of the time, but they cannot, and should not, fool all of the people all of the time.

As stated in the past, we are family boaters with two kayaks and a 23' bowrider. We live near the Weirs. We do not have any capability to go over 45 MPH in any of our boats. Safety is our concern and HB847 does not address safety in our opinion.

R2B

Bear Islander · 02-08-2008, 11:46 PM

That is in fact why the list was posted on offshoreonly. It's the list of businesses they will never use again.

Lakegeezer · 02-09-2008, 06:31 AM

Its too bad that a group hasn't formed to promote safety rather than exclusion, something like WinnSafe. The report from the MP shows that few boats are going over 45. Experienced boaters know that 99% of the safety issues occur under 45.

Places on "the list" won't miss a family here and there, because they are not represented by a group. The WinnFabs tricked businesses to sign on during their well funded marketing campaign. Many who signed probably thought they were signing up for safety - not revenge. You really can't blame them. They are fooling a lot of folks on this forum too.

What would your business do if someone asked you to sign a petition on safety? They show you a push-poll study showing 90% of non-boaters feel the same way their members do. They show you news articles and editorials that were printed within days of "educational" press releases. They talk about safety, about how kids can't canoe on weekends, how kayakers are almost run over and how Winnipesaukee has become an unfriendly place. Many of their facts are true, but some critical ones are not. They are describing Captain Bonehead, not boats going over 45 MPH. WinnFabs methods remind me too much of why the US is in Iraq. They used fear and lies to justify revenge, and fooled the house into voting for their law.

If we are to reduce the fear of boating on the lake, we need to trust those who are trying to make things better, not assume they are fools that have been swayed by fabrications. So far, that group or any proposed law has not appeared.

Rose · 02-09-2008, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

First, I never made that claim. But more importantly, why don't YOU prove that performance boats pollute less.

The proof that tourism is being effected is in the below list of speed limit supporters. You will note many are tourist related. There are even several marinas in there. Including marinas that sell large fast boats.

You're singling out high performance boats. If they don't pollute any more than other motorized watercraft, you can't use that as an argument as to why they should go, and you did make the claim that it was time for them to go. That would be discriminatory and in violation of the public trust. If they all pollute equally, all motorized watercraft must go. And besides, I find it hard to believe that someone who wastes energy on a heated driveway is that concerned about the environment.

As for my need to prove that they're not polluting more...I ASKED YOU FIRST...NEENER, NEENER, NEENER. In all seriousness, as a proponent of a speed limit looking to make a major change on the lake, it is your burden to prove your case. Once you show your proof, then it is my burden to refute it. But if it's truly just a safety issue, then keep it as a safety issue...don't cloud it with pollution.

And your list of businesses is not proof that it is affecting tourism...how about proving that those businesses saw a loss in revenue, and that it was directly related to high performance boats on the lake? Good luck.

fatlazyless · 02-09-2008, 07:37 AM

Lake Winnipesaukee has been the go-to lake for high speed motorboats since about 1925. Whenever someone has a 'fast boat' on one of the many other NH lakes which annoys the neighbors, the fast boater gets told "your boat is too danged fast for this little lake, so why don't you take it over to the Big Lake, Lake Winnipesaukee.

Now, what's happened, is all the Winnipesaukee neighbors are just telling the 'fast boats' the same thing. 'Why don't you go take your fast boat over to the South Pole, or somewhere!'

And on the eighth day, God said "Melt down those fast boat, fiberglass hulls, and beat them into kayaks, and the world will be a better place!" Plus, try a bowl of granola, too. Understand the NH Dept of Mental Health is setting up a 'NH Fast Boat Rehabilitation Hospital', where fast-boaters can be admitted so's they can be cured of their "THE NEED FOR SPEED!" Balancing on one leg and eating granola at the same time is a very effective therapy.

ApS · 02-09-2008, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rose

"...You're singling out high performance boats...As for my need to prove that they're not polluting more...don't cloud it with pollution...I ASKED YOU FIRST...NEENER, NEENER, NEENER..."

As one whose avocation deals with performance and high speed, I'm advising that there are products available through Internet sites that you definitely don't want in your recreational waters—much less in household waters.

One organic product in particular is objectionable to most civilized peoples of the world, but is in use in high performance applications—sadly.

Much to my dismay, it was recommended to me by friends at racetracks.

Describing it here specifically would promote its performance-enhancing properties and its even more widespread use.

(And it's not even toluene, which IS in widespread use).

Bear Islander · 02-09-2008, 08:52 AM

Talk about spin. If the list is so wrong, so inaccurate, so unfair and was obtained fraudulently, then why did the opposition post it on offshoreonly.com

Is there a list of businesses that oppose HB847? If there is then post it.

hazelnut · 02-09-2008, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

The list may be a joke, but the joke is on you.

I only copied the list, I will take no responsibility for it. I suggest you go to the source and complain to them. I copied it from OffShoreOnly.com the performance boating site where the opposition hangs out.

Bear Islander, Yesterday I thought we were on to something better here. I thought maybe we could elevate the discussion beyond hearsay and conjecture. I thought for a minute we could get beyond the usual banter.

Then you go and post this "LIST" as, let me go back and quote you, "proof that tourism is being effected."
I then refute the list as I believe it does not represent proof of anything with regard to tourism. Tourism is affected by so many external factors that is an oversimplification to tie it to one agenda. Just like the statement that "tourism will be negatively affected by a speed limit," not a good argument in my opinion due to socioeconomic factors.
Anyway when someone, Weirsbeachboater to be specific, comes along and further questions the integrity of the list and calls it joke, which after reading the post I concur, you go ahead and say THIS????

The list may be a joke, but the joke is on you.

I only copied the list, I will take no responsibility for it...

Do you see how you begin to lose credibility or not? Do you know the phrase "have your cake and eat it too." Well you can't. When you post something as PROOF of your argument you need to be able to stand by it and defend it. Otherwise any further posts have absolutely no merit. This list is tainted and flawed, not to mention it represents a SMALL number of Winnipesaukee businesses. Oh the list may seem long and impressive but whip out the phone book and go to the Business section of the book. Now print out your little list and compare it to the hundreds of pages of just one towns business listings. As pointed out it seems that one organization Common man/Rusty McClear represents the majority of the "list." Now you want to call it a spin when people point out the inadequacies of the list? Regardless of where the list was posted the facts are the facts.

JayDV · 02-09-2008, 09:43 AM

When those store owner/operators were approached for signing the list ...

1) How was the subject introduced? As a support request for the speed bill? As an informative conversation with both petitions offered and a choice of which one to sign?

2) In the subject matter: Was the audience asked what their concerns were, vis a vis lake safety (swimmers, camp kids, power boaters, non-power boaters, pollution)? Were they offered full choice of solutions to choose from (speed limit, horsepower restriction, boater education, better enforcement) ?

Bear Islander - With all due respect, I was wondering why you qualify your concern of kids to just camp kids or your own? Of the camps on Winni, there are only a few on the islands. I haven't read anywhere here that the camps from the mainland have voiced the same outside boating concerns you listed. I applaud your efforts toward our families children, and as a former day-care host, I can understand the safety concerns. I hope my question aren't misconstrued.

Nor, for that matter, have I read of any concerns of the swimmers at the public beaches operated by the townships. Can anyone offer the formal town positions on the lake safety issues?

Bear Islander · 02-09-2008, 10:06 AM

Hazelnut

The "proof" is in the huge number of businesses that support speed limits. The list itself is not proof, it's just a list. Instead of picking apart the list and chipping away at the edges how about showing that there are businesses that oppose HB847.

I posted something. . . . the opposition is posting nothing!

Please tell us about the businesses that oppose HB847

JayDV

The reason why I qualified by concerns that way is because both as a camp director, and a parent, I have lost a child. But I wasn't really aware of that connection until you asked.

KonaChick · 02-09-2008, 10:29 AM

If tourism dollars are down in recent years at Lake Winnipesaukee it has nothing to do with fear of being run over by a fast boat. Simply put it's the economy. We entertain often on weekends up here and have never, not once been told by family or friends that they are afraid to be out on the lake. I take that back...we've been out on the broads on a particullarly choppy day and my mother did turn green. I have walked among BI and his cronies and they do indeed in my humble opinion want to see a certain type of boat/s taken off the lake. Are they using the speed rationale as their smoke screen? That I can't answer but do have my opinion. Do I get shot dirty looks and glaring stares when I take my shiny new pwc over to BI to pick up relatives to come back to our house?? Yes, quiet often.

JayDV · 02-09-2008, 10:32 AM

BI - Thank you for your candor. I wasn't expecting such a personal motivation. I apologize if I appeared to be lacking in couth. - JayDV

Bear Islander · 02-09-2008, 10:54 AM

JayDV - No problem.

Hazelnut

You are being very unfair.

You started all this by posting a "statement" of your position on speed limits. You asked for a similar statement from me. But you also requested that I not quote or pick apart your statement. Although I thought it contained a lot of unsupported opinion, I have done as you requested and not attacked it.

I posted my "statement" as requested. Now you and others are attacking every word. A capital case is being made out of my suggestion that increased numbers of larger and faster boats will cause more pollution. And it is now my responsibility to PROVE that speed limits are good for tourism.

Like you, much of what I posted was my opinion. Unlike you, I accepted your statement at face value, and stuck to the agreement.

Bear Islander · 02-09-2008, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KonaChick

If tourism dollars are down in recent years at Lake Winnipesaukee it has nothing to do with fear of being run over by a fast boat. Simply put it's the economy. We entertain often on weekends up here and have never, not once been told by family or friends that they are afraid to be out on the lake. I take that back...we've been out on the broads on a particullarly choppy day and my mother did turn green. I have walked among BI and his cronies and they do indeed in my humble opinion want to see a certain type of boat/s taken off the lake. Are they using the speed rationale as their smoke screen? That I can't answer but do have my opinion. Do I get shot dirty looks and glaring stares when I take my shiny new pwc over to BI to pick up relatives to come back to our house?? Yes, quiet often.

I just did a mental calculation. My neighbor to the left has a PWC, as do 4 of the next 7 to the right. That is 5 out of 8 homes with a PWC. To be honest I'm sure that is way over the average. It could be those stares are envy, we love water sports on BI.

Next time you walk among us, please say hello.

Rose · 02-09-2008, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I posted my "statement" as requested. Now you and others are attacking every word. A capital case is being made out of my suggestion that increased numbers of larger and faster boats will cause more pollution. And it is now my responsibility to PROVE that speed limits are good for tourism.

An increased number of ANY type of watercraft is going to cause more pollution. Why don't you support a limit on the NUMBER of watercraft (of any type) allowed on the lake?

Since the subject being debated here is about a proposed law, it shouldn't be a surprise that the supporters of the proposed law be asked to prove the need for the legislation. You haven't.

When I provide a forecast, I can't just state what the weather is going to be...I have to support my reasoning behind that forecast. Otherwise, my peers are going to be all over my behind. If others question my reasoning, I can't stand there saying, "Oh, you're making a capital case over the fact that I think the US model is going to verify just because you think the European model is going to verify. Prove that you're right!!!" Guess what happens when that does happen on weather forums? The credibility of the original forecaster is diminished.

WeirsBeachBoater · 02-09-2008, 12:20 PM

These NH Businesses and Associations Oppose House Bill 847

New Hampshire Recreational Boaters Association
New Hampshire Wildlife Federation
New Hampshire Bass Federation

Marine Industry Businesses
ACL Industries - Manchester
Adam's Marina - Winnisquam
Adhesive Engineering & Supply, Inc. - Seabrook
All Professional Sports - Gilford
Andrew's Marine Service - Alton Bay
Art's Power Equipment - Belmont
Atlantic Watercraft Club (charter of American Watercraft Association) - Salem
Averys Auto & Marine - Newport
Back Bay Marina - Wolfeboro
Beede Electrical Instrument Co., Inc. - Penacook
Biggart Marine - Plaistow
Bob's Beacon Marine - Newbury
Browns Auto and Marine - Newport
Center Harbor Dock & Pier Co. - Center Harbor
Channel Marine - Laconia
C.F.M. Technologies - Moultonboro
Corey's Doreys - GIlford
Dasilva Motorsports - Hampstead, Moultonboro
Dave’s Motorboat Shoppe, LLC - Gilford
Derry Marine & Salvage - Derry
Diamond Shine Boat Detailing - Gilford
Dock Doctor - Gilford
Dover Marine - Portsmouth
East Coast Marine Storage - Epping
Eastcoast Flightcraft Marine of New Hampshire - Meredith
East Coast Performance Center - Salem
Eliminator, Inc. - Lee
Epping Motor Sports - Epping
Extreme Motor Sports - Windham
Gator Signs - Gilford
George's Marina - Dover
Gillan Marine Inc - Alton Bay
Granite State Boatworks - Milford
Glendale Marina - Gilford
Gray's Marina - Enfield
Great Bay Marina - Newington
Green's Marine, Inc. - Hooksett
Goodhue Marine, Inc. - Center Harbor
Hampton River Marina - Hampton
Harpers Boat Restoration - Meredith
HK Powersports - Laconia, Tilton, Hooksett
Irwin Marine - Laconia, Hudson, Alton, Litchfield
Jack Willey's - Tilton
JFG Enterprises Prop
Jim's Mopar Performance - Salem
JP Boating, LLC - Laconia
Lakeport Landing Marina - Laconia
Lakes Region Fiberglass - Laconia
Lakeside Boat Rentals - Alton Bay
Little Bay Marina - Dover
Lucky Lenny's Power Place - Tilton
Marine USA - Milford
Marlin Products Div. Pompanette LLC - Charlestown
Melvin Village Marina - Melvin Village
Miles Marine - Gilford
Moultonborough Canvas - Moultonborough
National Boat - Deerfield
Nault's Windham Honda - Windham
New England Boat & Motor - Laconia
New England Correct Craft - Rochester
Nimar International, Inc. - Walpole
Norm's Marina Inc. - Hinsdale
North/South Performance Boats - Alton Bay
One Stop Toy Shop - Epping
Outdoor Performance Center - Bridgewater
Outdoor Prop Service - Laconia
Owen's Marine - Hooksett
Philbricks Sports Center - Dover
Plaistow Motorsports - Plaistow
Pompanette, LLC - Charlestown
Production Trailer + Dock - Meredith
Professional Mariner, LLC - Rye
R & R Cycles - Manchester
Ray’s Marina & RV Sales, Inc - Milton
Ray Marine, Inc. - Nashua
Rochester Motor Sports - Rochester
Rockingham Boat Repair and Sales - Hampstead
S & W Sports - Concord
Sargents Marine - Georges Mills
Shep Brown's Boat Basin - Meredith, Gilford
Ship Shape Marine Works - Meredith
Shorline CoverWorks - Laconia
SilverSands Marina - Gilford
Sonic Power Marine of New England, LLC - Weirs Beach
Sunapee Harbor Marine - Sunapee
The Trailer Outlet - Tilton
Vintage Race Boat Shop - Wolfeboro
Ward's Boat Shop - Center Ossipee
Watermark Marine Construction - Gilford
Wentworth by the Sea Marina - New Castle
West Marine - Portsmouth
Windham Marine - Windham
Winnipesaukee Motorsports - Meredith
Winnipesaukee Marine Construction - Gilford
Winnisquam Marine - Winnisquam
Y Landing Marina - Meredith

Hotels and Restaurants
Anthony's Old Style Pizzeria - Center Harbor
Apre’ Cabin rental - Carrol
Bayside Inn - Alton Bay
Beacon Resort - Lincoln
Channel Cottages - Weirs Beach
Christmas Island Resort - Laconia
Dad's Restaurant - Lincoln
Escambuit Campground - Derry
King Birch Motor Lodge - Alton Bay
Lakehurst Cottages - Alton Bay
Maria Atwood Inn B&B - Franklin
NASWA Resort - Laconia
Pinewood Motel - Bethlehem
Anchorage Restaurant - Sunapee
Brick Front Restaurant & Lounge - Laconia
Christmas Island Steak House - Laconia
Crazy Gringos Mexican Restaurant - Weirs Beach
Donna Jeans Diner - Weirs Beach
Channel Texaco Food Mart - Weirs Beach
Eagle Tavern and Grill - Newport
East Alton General Store - Alton
Fat Belly's Restaurant - Portsmouth
Handy Landing - Weirs Beach
North End Pub - New London
Olde Bay Diner - Alton Bay
Paradise Beach Club - Weirs Beach
ParkSide Grill - Milford
Patrick's Pub and Eatery - Gilford
Pier 19 - Tuftonboro
Rivier Run Deli - Alton
Shibley's at the Pier - Alton Bay
Suzies Diner - Hudson
The Bay Diner - Alton Bay
The Dockside Restaurant - Alton Bay
Truants Taverne - North Woodstock
Wayne's Market - North Woodstock
Woody’s Restaurant at Sunapee Harbor - Sunapee

Fishing Related
A J Bait Shop - Meredith
Bubba Bassin Club - Sandown
Cool Water Charters - Center Harbor
Granite State Rod & Reel Repair - Nashua
Lakes Region Bass Fishing Guide Service - Meredith
Lil' Hustler Tackle Co - Pembroke
Nothern Bass Supply - Brentwood
NH B.A.S.S. Federation
Rocky Ledge Bass Tackle - Pittsfield
The Bass Harasser - Manchester

Builders, Landscaping and Construction
Al Hoyt & Sons, Inc. - Plaistow
All Quality Constructions - Meredith
AllBright Electric co - Alton Bay
Amherst Surface Restorations Inc. - Amherst
Atlas Foundations - Salem
Aqua Lawn - Moultonboro
B & M Glass Inc - Exeter
BaySide Concrete - Alton
Belknap Mountain Construction - Laconia
Blane Building Co Of Kingston LLc - Freemont
Blane Finnish Co - Kinston
Bob Jusko Bld/Remodeling - Hampstead
Bob's Painting & Pressure Washing LLC - Laconia
Boston Enviromental - Portsmouth
Brady Sullivan Properties - Manchester
Brian David Excavation - Moultonboro
Bruce White Const. - Hampstead
Busby Construction - Atkinson
Captains Construction - Alton Bay
Capuno and Capuno Masonary - Salem
Carino Masonry - Manchester
Cedarhill Concrete - Fremont
CLD Paving - Laconia
Clearwater Builders - Tilton
Clough Contracting Co. - Fremont
Cormier Home Improvements - Epping
D & H Construction - Plaistow
Dan Snow Plumb/Heating - Sandown
Dan's Appliance - Laconia
Davco Excavating - Ossipee
Don Lamontagne Painting - Gilford
Dovetailed Kitchen - Portsmouth
Farrell Construction - Salem
Faxon Art. Wells - Sandown
Fiela Plumb/Heating - Derry
Fillmore Industries Inc - Loudon
Gilford Home Center - Gilford
Granite State Stone and Pvers - Atkinson
Hillside Restorations - West Peterborough
J & S Electric - Milton
Jameson Excavating - Atkinson
JL Construction - Sandown
Kitchen Encounters - Laconia
Lachance Landscapes - Gilford
Lakefront Contracting Co.- Alton Bay
Lakes Region Design Group - Laconia
LJC Custom Homes - Hampstead
Mancusi Builders - Hampstead
Merrill Excavating - Salem
Northvent Mechanical - Alton Bay
Plaistow Custom Cabinets - Plaistow
Planet Green Landscape, Inc. - Meredith
Prime Construction Inc - Meredith
R J Lundy Excavating - Alton
Regan Electric Co., Inc - Portsmouth
Richard Murphy Contruction - Moultonboro
Rockingham County Concrete - Fremont
Scott Compton Builder - Laconia
Taurus Landscaping - Sandown
Tiffany Lee Custom Homes - Plaistow
Timberlane Plate Glass Co. - Plaistow
Tradesmen Builders Corp. - Laconia
Two Tall Concrete - Alton
VMB Construction - Tilton
Wentworth Builders - New Castle
Wetmore Electric - Moultonboro
Wm. Bartlett & Son - Plaistow

Automotive Related
Approved Auto - Plaistow
Aranco Oil Co., Inc. - Concord
Autoserv Concord, Newport, Tilton, Plymouth
Autoserv Nissan - Tilton
Ball Brother’s Trucking - Londonderry
Ben's Auto Body - Portsmouth
Bump & Grind Auto Body - Kingston
Color Concepts - Belmont
Complete RV - Kingston
Decelles Auto Clinic Inc. - Nashua
Evergreen RV - Rochester
Exit 20 Auto + Truck - Tilton
Fitzgerald Motorsports Ic. - Laconia
Foss Motors - Exeter
Gulbicki's Towing - Weirs Beach
Harpers Motorcycle,Auto Painting - Meredith
Harpers Towing - Meredith
Jakes Transmission - Fremont
Jim's Auto Parts - Salem
KarKraft - Gilford
Kwik Stop - Hooksett
Lakes Chrysler/Jeep - Laconia
McNovick Inc - Bow
Meineke - Bedford, Merrimack
R & L Auto and Cycle - Salem
Scott Wrights Auto Body - Exeter
The Tire Loft - Portsmouth
Tilton Autobody - Tilton

Real Estate
Austin Realty - Plaistow
Bayview Forest & Development - Alton Bay
Cascades Reality Development Trust - Alton Bay
Dakota Realty - Center Harbor
DJMJ Realty Trust - Laconia
Formula Development - Center Harbor
Ganong Realty - Laconia
Gamache Enterprises - Manchester
Leisure Time Rentals - Meredith
Living New England Homes LLC - Laconia
Ryan Properties - Titlon
White Mountain Management - Meredith

Other Businesses who oppose House Bill 847
Alpha Omega Management Co. - Gilford
Alumis Enterprises - Bridgewater
Andrus Carpet - Gilmington
API Insurance - Lakeport
Ashworth Enterprises - Atkinson
Bay State Cable Ties - Gilford
Blue NYC - Portsmouth
Bresnahan Movers - Plaistow
Broadway North Dance Outfitters - Tilton
Correct Temp Inc. - Salem
Cricket Corner Woodworks - Amherst
CSD Sealing Systems - Manchester
Delia's Boutique - Portsmouth
Envision Salon - Hampstead
Eye Contact - Portsmouth
Faux Paw Pet Boutique - Meredith
FitLife Design - Alton Bay
Gary Barnes & Sons, LLC - Hampstead
Geo. Merrill & Son - Salem
Golas Bros. - Plaistow
Howard Enterprises - Derry
Identity Footwear - Portsmouth
Integrated Equipment Solutions, LLC. - Kingston
J & D Screenprinting & Embroidery - Laconia
Johnson Logging - Newport
K & S Stephens Enterprises - Milford
Karen's Gift Shop - Weirs Beach
Key Site Services - Alton Bay
Lynch & Denoncourt CPA - Laconia Manchester Wholesale Distributors Inc. - Manchester
Macro Polo - Portsmouth
MB Tractor - Tilton, Plaistow, Rumney
Medcomp Claims & Consult. - Plaistow
Montero Group - Chichecton
NE Fiberglass, LLC - Gilford
Northeast Communications Corp (WFTN, WPNH, WSCY) - Franklin
Northern Pool and Spa - Tilton
Philbricks Sales & Service - Hampton
Pixel Force - Laconia
Plaistow Trading - Plaistow
Rapid Response Marketing - Manchester
Red Brick Clothing Co - Hudson
RJ Lundy - Alton
Rock Coast Printworks - Dover
Sandown Materials - Chester
Seabrook Equipment - Seabrook
Stanley Elevator Co. - Nashua
The Art of Hair - Newton
The Eyeglass Shop - Portsmouth
The Red Carpet Salon - Laconia
The Testing & Coring company - Alton Bay
Turbotek - Manchester
Wireless Zone - Milford

And thousands of NH citizens, see testimonials page for comments from many of them.

Our state's motto that we have on every license plate means a lot to those opposing House Bill 847

GWC... · 02-09-2008, 12:45 PM

Wow!!!

I can hear a pin drop...

Bear Islander · 02-09-2008, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rose

An increased number of ANY type of watercraft is going to cause more pollution. Why don't you support a limit on the NUMBER of watercraft (of any type) allowed on the lake?

Since the subject being debated here is about a proposed law, it shouldn't be a surprise that the supporters of the proposed law be asked to prove the need for the legislation. You haven't.

When I provide a forecast, I can't just state what the weather is going to be...I have to support my reasoning behind that forecast. Otherwise, my peers are going to be all over my behind. If others question my reasoning, I can't stand there saying, "Oh, you're making a capital case over the fact that I think the US model is going to verify just because you think the European model is going to verify. Prove that you're right!!!" Guess what happens when that does happen on weather forums? The credibility of the original forecaster is diminished.

If you write a bill that limits the number of boats on the lake I might support it. I would obviously need to read it first. The big question is how do you determine who gets to boat and who doesn't. There are some National Parks that only allow limited numbers of people that have reservations. I don't think that is workable for the lake.

Eventually there will have to be more and more limits to access. Just like there are on Quabin in MA.

However I think the most fair thing is a horsepower limit. Allowing 100 15 HP boat is more reasonable than 1 1,500 HP boat.

I don't need to prove that speed limits are necessary. 236 State Reps already believe that the case for speed limits has been proved.

hazelnut · 02-09-2008, 02:44 PM

Initially yes I wanted to make a statement and then I wanted you to make a statement free from quoting or disputing my statement. We did that. I think we both did a good job of that.

I never said that subsequent posts fell into that category. This is a debate about an issue. Here is the problem that you are running into as I see it.

The debate revolves around a House Bill regarding a SPEED LIMIT. The people who oppose a speed limit have hard facts and statistics as to why there is no reason or need for a speed limit. In short speed is not the problem. You yourself said so.

The people who support a SPEED LIMIT have no facts or statistics to support the theory that a speed limit is necessary. The House Bill is in effect a wolf in sheep's clothing. It masks itself as a safety measure when in fact the supporters see it as a way to rid the lake of what it thinks are undesirables. You yourself stated that Go Fast Boats do not belong on the lake.

With that said you will ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS come under scrutiny for supporting a bill that is sneaky and underhanded. It is a form of discrimination. You support a bill that is discriminatory in nature. That is a fact. If you can live with that, fine. Personally when it comes to lawmaking we should not allow emotion to dictate protocol. I take this very serious. When a law is made based solely on the idea that we can get rid of something that a few people "don't like," based on no supportive fact it worries me. If this law passes it only paves the way for more silly laws.

By the way, you have no comment on the "list?"

ITD · 02-09-2008, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evenstar

All you want to do is tear my posts apart in an attempt to misquote me. Misquoting is changing the meaning of what I wrote or taking it out of context.

Why can't you just accept that other people have had different experiences than you? To you, someone must be lying, unless they see things exactly as you. Guess what? We're all different (thank God), and everyone is entitled to thier own opinion.

My ability to judge distance and speed has been tested - so this is not just a claim. I've explained all this before: I suffered a severe head injury to the left side of my brain when I was little, because of this the right side of my brain became overdeveloped – I test “off the charts” in spatial awareness. So I tend to be pretty accurate in being able to estimate things like speed and distance. That’s because I can only think in images.

Plus I have spent a great deal of time on Squam, where the fastest boats consistently push the 40mph limit – so I have a pretty good idea what 45 mph looks like. And I know what 150 feet looks like. If a speeding boat is less than 9 of my kayak lengths from me - they are too close. And I have had highspeed boats on Winni come within less than 5 kayak lengths, before they appeared to notice me.

There has been nothing "charmed" about my life. I have had a very difficult life. Although I will admit that I was very sheltered for many years.

All I do is read your posts and decide whether what you say is reasonable or not, based on what you say, what you have said, and my own experiences.

My conclusions on what you have printed are based mostly on what you have written. Unlike making oral presentations, written arguments, especially in a medium like this, are easily compared to previous written arguments you've made. Inconsistencies stick out like a sore thumb. I actually held back for weeks if not months when you first started posting and I noticed that things weren't adding up. Then I realized the negative effect the exaggerations, misrepresentations, inaccuracies and in some cases ( I'm not saying you here) blatant lies were having, generating a groundswell of people who were actually believing the hype.

So I began pointing out the problems with your and other's stories. And there were many problems.

Through our and others interactions many truths have come out, truths that were not apparent when you first started telling us about your bad experiences on Lake Winnipesaukee. For instance, after you had been telling us about your bad encounters (implied to be on Lake Winnipesaukee) you finally admitted that you had at that time never paddled on the lake. Later we found out that your fear of motor boats was based on a near death experience you had while paddling on the Connecticut River.

Now you tell us that you have some kind of innate ability to accurately judge distance and speed that has been "tested". Give me a break. The more you try to impress me with your qualifications, the less impressed I become.

You allude to too many close, high speed encounters on Lake Winnipesaukee to be believable. One time, I might be able to believe, but the many that you talk about, not so much.

I'm sorry you feel I'm attacking you, but to be honest with you I really don't care. The inconsistencies in your stories need to be pointed out, especially for people unfamiliar with our lake, who, if left to read your uncontested story will think that taking a kayak or similar boat on our lake is a deadly idea. It's just not true.

Resident 2B · 02-09-2008, 03:35 PM

WeirsBeachBoater,

Thanks for posting this list. It certainly is much longer than the "huge" list of supporting businesses.

For BI, this is another great example of why you should be very careful about what you are asking for. I am sure it is significantly longer than you thought it would be.

For me, this list also goes on the refrigerator, so that we will remember where to go when we need to make a purchase.

R2B

WeirsBeachBoater · 02-09-2008, 03:43 PM

No problem R2B. Glad to help out.

Evenstar · 02-09-2008, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

The debate revolves around a House Bill regarding a SPEED LIMIT. The people who oppose a speed limit have hard facts and statistics as to why there is no reason or need for a speed limit.

Just because now one has been killed or hurt by a highspeed powerboat is not proof that high speed boats are not creating a dangerous problem on the lake.

And the data that was collected last summer by the marine patrol is not proof that speed isn't a problem on Winni. (During those 11 weeks speed was only recorded during less than 2% of the daylight hours, on on select portions of the lake, and that fact that speeds were being recorded, as well as the 2 main areas were well publicized). According to everything I know about data collection (and I have taken a university course in research methodology, last summers MP study was not what any expert would consider to be a viable study.

There's another major factor: [b]No agency keeps track of close calls.[b/] I have had close calls with high-speed boats on Winni (that were going faster then 45 and that came way closer than 150 feet frome me). Others have stated that they have had similar close calls.

And here is a hard fact: The faster you are going, the further you will travel in the time that it takes you to react. That is a safey issue. I have had my 150 foot zone violated because the operators were traveling faster than their ability to see me.

For me and for many others this is ONLY about safety. Yet when I state my reasons here, I'm accused of exagerating or even of lying. I'm told that I must not be a very good judge of speed or of distance (when I happen to be an excellent judge of both).

I have only spoken to 4 MPs about a lake speed limit law, but all 4 wanted a lake speed limit. When that previous bill was in the House (which would have enacted a speed limit on all NH waters) I spoke with 2 Coast Guard officers, and they both were in favor of the bill. Both the MP and the CG members told me that they saw a speed limit law as a "necessary tool".

This is not about pushing any type of boat off the lake - it is about slower the fastest boats down to a safer speed. Fast boats do not belong on the lake - unless their operaters are willing to slow down. 45 mph is a fast speed on water. In my opinion, if you feel like you need to go faster than that, go to the coast. It is not all that far away.

Resident 2B · 02-09-2008, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

Places on "the list" won't miss a family here and there, because they are not represented by a group. The WinnFabs tricked businesses to sign on during their well funded marketing campaign. Many who signed probably thought they were signing up for safety - not revenge. You really can't blame them. They are fooling a lot of folks on this forum too.

Lakegeezer,

I think you are correct in most cases. However, there are some businesses listed that are driving this discriminatory bill. I will certainly stay away from them, but I am sure they will not be hurt from it. I do not think it is right to deceive people in an attempt to get a certain group off the lake. That is un-American and so very wrong. How these people can live like that is beyond me.

When you think about it, the package of misinformation and hidden agendas had to have an impact on elected members of the House as well. I believe the Representatives were, in many cases, voting for the bill because of the impact the misinformation had on people in their district, making those without direct experience on the lake to think this was all about safety. Who can be against safety? When so many people contact a Rep, the Rep has to listen.

Contacting State Senators to let them know what has come out recently in this forum is very important. I believe the Senators are more educated about the situation than the Reps were, but you never know.

R2B

Bear Islander · 02-09-2008, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

WeirsBeachBoater,

Thanks for posting this list. It certainly is much longer than the "huge" list of supporting businesses.

For BI, this is another great example of why you should be very careful about what you are asking for. I am sure it is significantly longer than you thought it would be.

For me, this list also goes on the refrigerator, so that we will remember where to go when we need to make a purchase.

R2B

I have seen the list before. It's an excellent example of who opposes speed limits. Thanks for posting, a more appropriate response than sniping the supporters list.

codeman671 · 02-09-2008, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I have seen the list before. It's an excellent example of who opposes speed limits. Thanks for posting, a more appropriate response than sniping the supporters list.

I am not picking on your for posting it, but a few of the supporters surprise me. Glendale Marine for instance, being that they are the local Manitou dealer at the lake and claim to have the fastest pontoons around- capable of 60mph. The sign they hung last year stated "Hot Rod Pontoon-60MPH!!! "

Rather odd for a supporter to advertise like this. He will be getting a call from me this week for sure. I think we all know why Rusty is a supporter, he is lucky to have a restaurant at all after his establishments involvement in a past incident.

Bear Islander · 02-09-2008, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

The people who support a SPEED LIMIT have no facts or statistics to support the theory that a speed limit is necessary.

United States Coast Guard

BOATING STATISTICS 2006

Executive Summary

The number of boating deaths, injuries and property damage increased
for the second consecutive year and when compared to 2005 are as follows:
710 deaths vs. 697; 3,474 injuries vs. 3,451; and $43,670,424 in
property damage vs. $38,721,088.

Overall, two-thirds of all fatal boating accident victims drowned. Of those
who drowned, ninety (90) percent of the victims were not wearing their life
jacket. Eight out of every ten boaters who drowned were using boats less
than 20 feet in length.

Consistent with previous years, 70% of reported fatalities occurred on
boats where the operator had not received boating safety instruction.

Operator inattention, carelessness/reckless operation, excessive speed,
and no proper lookout are the primary contributing factors in all reported
accidents.

Go ahead and spin that. And please note that 3 of the 4 contributing factors are already against the law on Winni. Only speed is unregulated.

And I never said speed is not the problem, please don't misquote me.

Evenstar · 02-09-2008, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITD

I actually held back for weeks if not months when you first started posting and I noticed that things weren't adding up.

For instance, after you had been telling us about your bad encounters (implied to be on Lake Winnipesaukee) you finally admitted that you had at that time never paddled on the lake.[/quote]
This is just not true. In my 2nd post on this forum I wrote: "Even though this is called the Winnipesaukee forums, isn't it about the entire Lakes Region? I mean, it's ok to ask about Squam and other lakes, isn't it. The thing is that I haven't even been on Winni yet, but I do plan on exploring it some this year in my kayak. In fact I just got my Bizer chart this morning. I wrote that on my very first day as a member.

Quote:

Later we found out that your fear of motor boats was based on a near death experience you had while paddling on the Connecticut River.

In my very next post I wrote: I haven't kayaked on Winni yet, but I have been on other NH lakes enough to comment on high speeds.
That incident that I had on the CT river was not the first time that I have had a close call high-speed power boats. I never said that it was a "near death experience" and I'm not afraid of powerboats - just of the idiots who go too fast to see me.

Quote:

Now you tell us that you have some kind of innate ability to accurately judge distance and speed that has been "tested". Give me a break. The more you try to impress me with your qualifications, the less impressed I become.

I never lie. I have been tested. When you have had a severe head injury, you get tested ALOT - in all sorts of ways. I have had electrocephalogram tests, MRI tests, and all sorts of medical, written, and vision, language, comprehension, and awareness tests. Just like anyone, I have strengths and weaknesses. Language is one of my weaknesses. Spatial awareness is one on my strengths. The woman who tested me told me that my spatial awareness is "off the charts". Look up spatial awareness.

I’ve explained what areas I am experienced in and have admitted my lack of experience in others. I have NEVER once pretended to have had any more experience or ability than what I actually have.

Quote:

I'm sorry you feel I'm attacking you, but to be honest with you I really don't care. The inconsistencies in your stories need to be pointed out

You are attacking me! You are making up outright lies about what I wrote in this forum - just to discredit me. That is underhanded, it is wrong, and it is against the rules of this forum! I have always been totally honest here - you have not.

WeirsBeachBoater · 02-09-2008, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I have seen the list before. It's an excellent example of who opposes speed limits. Thanks for posting, a more appropriate response than sniping the supporters list.

I was with you until the last 9 words. I was not sniping. I was pointing out the TRUTH! Facts, as we call them. But I wouldn't expect your side to understand what facts are, supporters don't use them!

hazelnut · 02-09-2008, 05:27 PM

NONE OF THAT HAPPENED ON LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE!!!!

Are you serious. I really had higher hopes for you.

Do you have amnesia? I asked you to answer a yes or no question YESTERDAY!!!!!

I will quote it for those who do not want to scroll up:

Bear Islander and all supporters of the HB in question please answer a simple yes or no to the following question. No adjective, description, comment, argument just a simple y/n or if you prefer yes/no.

The biggest problem on the lake today is that boats are speeding. Yes or No

Please tell me what your answer was? It's right here on the forum for all to see.

Oh I see we are splitting hairs I should have said you yourself agreed that speed was not the BIGGEST problem. Whatever.

I want you to give me Lake Winnipesaukee specific statistics... Guess what YOU CAN'T. You are really grabbing at straws here. I should have expected it to go down this road. I had such high hopes.

Rose · 02-09-2008, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I don't need to prove that speed limits are necessary. 236 State Reps already believe that the case for speed limits has been proved.

How many federal Reps and Senators believed that there was a case for going into Iraq based on inaccurate intelligence(I'm being kind...I think it was intentionally false)? Just because a large quantity of people believe in something doesn't make it true.

The main problem I have with your position is that it's discriminatory. Of all the watercraft on the lake, I like GFBL boats least of all, but I don't want to start banning certain watercraft from the lake just because I don't happen to like them, for whatever the reason.

hazelnut · 02-09-2008, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rose

The main problem I have with your position is that it's discriminatory. Of all the watercraft on the lake, I like GFBL boats least of all, but I don't want to start banning certain watercraft from the lake just because I don't happen to like them, for whatever the reason.

Rose, I could not agree more with you. The battle cry from those who oppose the bill has to be just that. It discriminates.

Deep down inside I believe that the perfect boat for Lake Winnepesaukee is a 21-27 footer. Preferably a runabout style or bowrider. I just don't see why someone would want a 100MPH boat on a landlocked body of water. I mean eventually you just run out of real estate. I am also not a huge fan of PWC's most of the older ones are noisy and they pollute. The newer ones are ok but when you get a gang of them together it can get chaotic out there.

With that said I do not believe in laws that single out either one of those classes of water vehicle. I think it flat out reeks when the interests of one group of complainers can dictate a policy that is based on nothing more than inflamatory, misleading statements. Point blank this law is targeted at the big fast boats hoping that they will leave the lake if this becomes law. It has absolutely no merit with regard to increasing safety on the lake. Speed has not been proven to be a factor on Lake Winnipesaukee in any statistics regarding injury or death. This is legislature against fiberglass and horsepower nothing more!

GWC... · 02-09-2008, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

I am not picking on your for posting it, but a few of the supporters surprise me. Glendale Marine for instance,...

He will be getting a call from me this week for sure.

Perhaps a review of the opposition list will be prudent before you make that call.

Seems Glendale Marine made both lists.

Also, seems they're not the only one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

These NH Businesses and Associations Oppose House Bill 847

Marine Industry Businesses

Glendale Marina - Gilford

Y Landing Marina - Meredith

Skipper of the Sea Que · 02-09-2008, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

United States Coast Guard

BOATING STATISTICS 2006

Executive Summary {snip}
Operator inattention, carelessness/reckless operation, excessive speed,
and no proper lookout are the primary contributing factors in all reported
accidents.

Go ahead and spin that. And please note that 3 of the 4 contributing factors are already against the law on Winni. Only speed is unregulated.

And I never said speed is not the problem, please don't misquote me.

Excuse me Bear Islander, I know your penchant for wanting to know the details behind the data. How is was that data obtained? Did you find out? Did the USCG data mention the speeds? Did they say what number were in speed controlled water? Did the data include LAKES? I imagine you would want to know answers to these and other data gathering criteria. I sure do.

"Excessive speed" does NOT in any way mean faster than 45 mph day or 25 mph night, does it? I believe it means excessive for the conditions and circumstances. Either way, there are NO NUMBERS (= no speed limits) in the data you posted.

Speed is indeed regulated on Lake Winnipesaukee. The quotes and RSAs have been posted several times. DO they include the numbers 25/45? as if 44 mph is OK and 46 mph is all of a sudden dangerous (exaggerated a bit to help make a point). On Winnipesaukee I believe the current law is more is more realistic. Excessive for the circumstances.

I've been quiet on the speed limit issue for quite awhile but now I feel I need to add my thoughts on this subject.

Anyway, BI. Do you know how the Coast Guard data was gathered and how does it relate to our Lake Winnipesaukee situation? I'm all for safety but I don't see speed limits (specific numbers) as a magic cure for any of the 4 primary factors contributing to reported accidents.

Alton Bay · 02-09-2008, 06:39 PM

I read with interest all the points being taken on both sides of the debate. However, the fact is, the House has passed a speed limit bill. I have to wonder how many legislators have ever even been to the Lake? Rather than beat this issue to death, have people been contacting their state senators? They hold the speed limit bill in their hands. Does anyone know where they stand?
Last time I checked we all have to have boater certification certificates by this summer. We should all know about the safe passage law, bwi and other issues. Rentals remain an huge issue in my mind.
Also, interesting that most Alton businesses do not support a speed limit. Ask them ( and Alton residents) if they support a noise limit and they would say "yes" and... you know what?? We have a law regarding noise. Is it enforced?? I can tell you it's very noisy in Alton (maybe cuz it's narrow?) and it certainly isn't just from GFLB. Let's enforce the laws on the books.

Hottrucks · 02-09-2008, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rose

I like GFBL boats least of all, but I don't want to start banning certain watercraft from the lake just because I don't happen to like them, for whatever the reason.

Didn't this happen already with the ban of jet ski's on weekends for a certian lakes and ponds???

the answer is "YES" incase you didn't know or haven't left winnie in awhile

Dave R · 02-09-2008, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alton Bay

I read with interest all the points being taken on both sides of the debate. However, the fact is, the House has passed a speed limit bill. I have to wonder how many legislators have ever even been to the Lake? Rather than beat this issue to death, have people been contacting their state senators? They hold the speed limit bill in their hands. Does anyone know where they stand?
Last time I checked we all have to have boater certification certificates by this summer. We should all know about the safe passage law, bwi and other issues. Rentals remain an huge issue in my mind.
Also, interesting that most Alton businesses do not support a speed limit. Ask them ( and Alton residents) if they support a noise limit and they would say "yes" and... you know what?? We have a law regarding noise. Is it enforced?? I can tell you it's very noisy in Alton (maybe cuz it's narrow?) and it certainly isn't just from GFLB. Let's enforce the laws on the books.

Contacting Senators may not be as effective as contacting Representatives. Reps are supposed to vote the way they feel thier constituents would vote; they are the voice of the people and are not supposed to vote with their own opinion. If they do, they are not necessarily representing us. Senators are supposed to vote based the "correctness" of the bill, not the popular opinion. They are supposed to be the voice of reason in these situations, just in case the popular opinion is bad. Some feel we need more government control than we presently have, some think we need less.

My gut says the current majority in the Senate would LOVE to pass a law that takes away accountability from us and gives power to the state, especially if it costs money to implement. Count on this bill passing, regardless of what you tell your Senator. With luck, our Governer will veto the bill if it does pass, and perhaps we can get rid of some of the folks in the House and Senate that seek to add dumb laws before the next poorly-thought-out speed limit bill is introduced.

If you seek to blame anyone after this bill passes, blame the GOP, the very folks who generally oppose the bill. The GOP irritated the US population so much recently that folks voted them out and voted in the sort of people that seek to add laws and spend money.

FWIW, I oppose THIS speed limit bill. 45 is really slow, I've exceeded it several times on a bicycle (Pingree Hill Road). If a need for a reasonable speed limit is ever proven, I would not oppose it. 25 or 30 at night seems like a good idea, I have no issue with that, but then I've never seen anyone exceed it either, unless it was brightly moonlit. I also strongly support strict noise law enforcement, I really dislike loud boats, cars and motorcylces. Loud jet fighters rock though...

Bear Islander · 02-09-2008, 08:05 PM

Two weeks ago I rode a centrifuge at the National Astronautics and Space Training Center up to 6 gravities. But I did not experience half the spin I get on this forum.

It starts when an opponent posts there are "no statistics" or "no accidents" then they are shown the statistics and reminded of the accidents. Next comes the long list of excuses why those stats do not apply. A short period of silence, the it starts again with "no statistics" "no accidents".

Two years ago the house voted for HB162 .... what a bunch of idiots! ..... violating our rights! ... never been to the lake!.....

A few weeks later the Senate voted down HB162 .... responsible, intelligent leaders! .... informed, thoughtful representation!... they know what our lake needs!

Two weeks ago the house voted for HB847 .... what a bunch of idiots! ..... violating our rights! ... never been to the lake!.....

If the Senate passes HB847, will that mean they suddenly became stupid and irresponsible??

Dave R · 02-09-2008, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

If the Senate passes HB847, will that mean they suddenly became stupid and irresponsible??

No, they just became mostly Democrats. It's really a partisan issue. If it was a safety issue, it would have passed the Senate the last time.

fatlazyless · 02-09-2008, 09:43 PM

Not to worry...even if the senate does the unthinkable and passes HB847 sometime soon......Gov John Lynch will be right there with his veto stamp and he'll most definately pound HB847 with a VETO. Go Gov Lynch, go buddy!

hazelnut · 02-09-2008, 11:51 PM

[QUOTE=Bear Islander;63119]... I did not experience half the spin I get on this forum..It starts when an opponent posts there are "no statistics" or "no accidents" then they are shown the statistics and reminded of the accidents. Next comes the long list of excuses why those stats do not apply. A short period of silence, the it starts again with "no statistics" "no accidents".

Bear Islander: Seriously? Again you baffle the forum. Please site the statistics that directly apply to lake Winnipesaukee. After all this Bill directly applies to Lake Winnipesaukee so you should easily be able to cite and provide the statistics and accidents that occurred on Lake Winnipesaukee that were a direct result of speed. Go for it. I wait with baited breath. If you do not reply to this direct request I will refer to this as a "short period of silence" while you research and find NOTHING!

You have officially lost all credibility in my eyes. I know that means nothing to you but it is a shame because you had so much promise for your "side" of the argument. Now.... your ball my friend, provide those "accidents" and "statistics" on LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE that were a direct result of speed. HA HA HA HA HA HA YOU CAN'T!!!!!!

Bear Islander · 02-10-2008, 12:27 AM

The spin starts already, they have to be on Winnipesaukee. Why? Do you think there is some magic that protects people on this lake? And what speed does it have to be in excess of? Does it have to be boat to boat? Day? Night? Can alcohol be involved? How long ago still applies? What if the speed can not be EXACTLY determined beyond any doubt?

Give me all the parameters now so I can save time.

hazelnut · 02-10-2008, 01:01 AM

Gee I guess you're right Bear Islander.

Can you please state which lake the HB in question refers to? Yeah I'm spinnin it allllright. The HB in question sets a speed limit on ONE LAKE and ONE LAKE ONLY. Which one you ask.... Well I'lls tells yas... LAKE WINNI.. What's that you say? Yup Lake Winneeeepesaukeeeeee. Well sir should we only discuss stats and incidents on the body of water in question. GOOD QUESTION meeee friend???? Well sir, accordin to one side of the argument we should throw in every incident on theeee continental US of A. But why's that pa? Well sir, it bolsters that there argument to slap a good ole speed limit on that there lake. But pa, that don' make no sense? Well junior it ought to make no sense, it only has to make sense to those folk who wanna make it make sense. Huh? Ya see Junior, Them folk who wanna speed limit wanna figur out a way to make the stats fith their agenda.......

I could go on but.. Nah. Bear Isle??? You are reachin and grabbin. Good luck to ya.

hazelnut · 02-10-2008, 01:05 AM

Your last post is in the category of "short period of silence" because you never cited specific incidents on LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE that directly reflect the need for a speed limit on LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE. Because the bill only applies to LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE. So start there.... Any and all speed related incidents regardless of day, night, alcohol, moon phase, sunlight, boat to boat, magic, etc. etc. etc. Here it is.... seriously all you need to do is site ANY incident from the beginning of time until now that involved speed on Lake Winnipesaukee and a death, injury, whatever... seriously anything that involves speed on this lake and this lake only. That's the only parameter, I swear. So go for it. I wait again with baited breath.............

Skipper of the Sea Que · 02-10-2008, 05:19 AM

I thought the speed limit test zones by Rattlesnake Island and Bear Island were temporary. I believed they were speed limits there for several weeks, not for the entire season. Was there really an expiration date, as I believe, on those speed limit zones? I thought they were finished before the end of the summer 2007 season and just for a pilot test program.

I ask because an alleged authoritative source indicates that those two locations are still active speed limit zones.

Thanks

Lakegeezer · 02-10-2008, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Operator inattention, carelessness/reckless operation, excessive speed, and no proper lookout are the primary contributing factors in all reported accidents.

Go ahead and spin that. And please note that 3 of the 4 contributing factors are already against the law on Winni. Only speed is unregulated.

And I never said speed is not the problem, please don't misquote me.

OK BI, here is some spin, per your request. Excessive speed does not mean exceeding 45. The last time I dinged my prop, excessive speed was the cause. I was going 6 when I should have been going 2. Then I could have stopped in time when my look-out saw the rock.

What is your motivation for pushing for a speed-limit rather than against excessive speed? Safe boating demands that speed be related to conditions of the weather, water and traffic. When you use the term "excessive speed" to justify a speed limit, that is spinning the report in an unjustified way. Speed is already regulated in the careless/reckless rules, and that is no spin. Defining 45+ as careless/reckless is what the fight is about. 45 can be too fast - but so can 6.

ApS · 02-10-2008, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

"...I don't know what a Nor-tech is...,"

Check Photopost for a 130-MPH Nor-tech in Alton Bay.

Can you see the "driver"?

Nor can he see you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

The spin starts already, they have to be on Winnipesaukee.

Yup. But the above "Opponents List" can be filled with unknown persons scattered from Portsmouth to Berlin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

"...Here it is.... seriously all you need to do is site [sic] ANY incident from the beginning of time until now that involved speed on Lake Winnipesaukee and a death, injury, whatever...That's the only parameter, I swear..."

Gilford had one run up a hill and into a house. (The Marine Patrol's first call for three body bags at Lake Winnipesaukee).

That said, there was no proof of excessive speed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

"...WinnFabs methods...used fear and lies to justify revenge, and fooled the house into voting for their law..."

...and...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rose

"...Just because a large quantity of people believe in something doesn't make it true..."

You're both right. It is quite a large quantity—at Snopes.com click here.

ITD · 02-10-2008, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evenstar

This is just not true. In my 2nd post on this forum I wrote: "Even though this is called the Winnipesaukee forums, isn't it about the entire Lakes Region? I mean, it's ok to ask about Squam and other lakes, isn't it. The thing is that I haven't even been on Winni yet, but I do plan on exploring it some this year in my kayak. In fact I just got my Bizer chart this morning. I wrote that on my very first day as a member.

In my very next post I wrote: I haven't kayaked on Winni yet, but I have been on other NH lakes enough to comment on high speeds.
That incident that I had on the CT river was not the first time that I have had a close call high-speed power boats. I never said that it was a "near death experience" and I'm not afraid of powerboats - just of the idiots who go too fast to see me.

I never lie. I have been tested. When you have had a severe head injury, you get tested ALOT - in all sorts of ways. I have had electrocephalogram tests, MRI tests, and all sorts of medical, written, and vision, language, comprehension, and awareness tests. Just like anyone, I have strengths and weaknesses. Language is one of my weaknesses. Spatial awareness is one on my strengths. The woman who tested me told me that my spatial awareness is "off the charts". Look up spatial awareness.

I’ve explained what areas I am experienced in and have admitted my lack of experience in others. I have NEVER once pretended to have had any more experience or ability than what I actually have.

You are attacking me! You are making up outright lies about what I wrote in this forum - just to discredit me. That is underhanded, it is wrong, and it is against the rules of this forum! I have always been totally honest here - you have not.

I know what spatial awareness is, and I also looked it up. "Spatial awareness is an organised knowledge of objects including oneself, in a given space. Spatial awareness also involves understanding the relationships of these objects when there is a change of position."

Nowhere in the definitions of Spatial Awareness does it mention the "ability to judge distance and speed". The human brain cannot accurately judge distance or speed without some type of tool. We can estimate, but our estimates generally are not very good. That's why we have rulers, tape measures and speedometers. You are, once again, mistaken if you think you can accurately judge distance and speed. Especially speed, while sitting in your kayak. In fact, that is probably the problem with your perceptions of the lake.

Pointing out inconsistencies in your posts, which are plentiful, does not make me a liar. You feel as though you should be able to post whatever you like and not be challenged as to your information's veracity. Well, when the information you post will result in restrictions imposed on me, you better have your act together. If I see a problem with your post, I am going to point it out. You can cry all you want about it, but that is the way it is.

As far as personal attacks go, reread what you write about me. You call me: a liar, underhanded, wrong and other things. Who's comments are bordering on personal attacks? Why yours are. It's ok though, I'm a grown up, I can take it.

The only thing I want to discredit is your message, that the lake is a dangerous place for kayaks because of boats travelling above 45 mph. It's simply not true. It's not supported by the statistics, the speed survey or many people's extensive experience on the lake.

Lighten up, stick to the facts, quit crying about personal attacks when you lose in the arena of ideas.........

BTW, I'm aware of your initial posts, they were used to point out that you didn't have extensive experience on the lake when your later posts gave the impression that you did.

Alton Bay · 02-10-2008, 10:23 AM

Stupid questions...Maybe someone here can answer them for me.
If your boat is old and has no speedometer, how do you know you now what speed you are traveling?
Also, has anyone ever considered the folks who will take up the job of policing the lake and calling in folks they consider are speeding. #1 How will MP deal with it with the small squad they have on Winni and #2 How can anyone determine, without a radar gun, what 46+ mph is? How many MP folks are normally out on a Sunday in July?

Bear Islander · 02-10-2008, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

OK BI, here is some spin, per your request. Excessive speed does not mean exceeding 45. The last time I dinged my prop, excessive speed was the cause. I was going 6 when I should have been going 2. Then I could have stopped in time when my look-out saw the rock.

What is your motivation for pushing for a speed-limit rather than against excessive speed? Safe boating demands that speed be related to conditions of the weather, water and traffic. When you use the term "excessive speed" to justify a speed limit, that is spinning the report in an unjustified way. Speed is already regulated in the careless/reckless rules, and that is no spin. Defining 45+ as careless/reckless is what the fight is about. 45 can be too fast - but so can 6.

I am pushing for HB847 because it is better than the nothing we have now. Just saying excessive speed leaves things to open to interpretation. Every ticket would have to be a huge argument. Why not use excessive speed as the limit on route 93? Because it will not work, that's why.

Hazelnut -

Limiting it to one lake creates to small a statistical universe. Why does the double fatality on Long Lake last summer not apply? If you want to exclude that accident you should tell me why it could not have happened on Winni.

Why stop at limiting it to Winni. Someone in Winter Harbor might argue that there has never been a serious accident in Winter Harbor, therefore it should have no speed limit. But WH is not a good example I guess since there was a fatal boating accident there last summer.

BTW HB847 applies to all the lakes in NH. The attached amendment the opposition wanted fixes it to Winni only. The Senate can pass HB847 and NOT the amendment if they choose.

Back to my limitations. There are still two questions open. You can't just say "involve speed", I didn't just fall off a turnip truck! What speed? 45/25? And how do we know what the speed of the boats actually were. Otherwise you will wiggle out with the "please prove the boat was going 90 mph exactly" crap. If a report, newspaper article etc says about XX mph, is that good enough?

fatlazyless · 02-10-2008, 10:41 AM

On Winnipesaukee, the MP has those three 27' military style, combo aluminum-rib interceptors, powered by twin Merc 150 two-strokes, two marked & one unmarked. Mostly, they just slowly cruise around at about 1/4 power, just being present, visible, and available in case something happens. They like to set up and wait in some likely spot, behind a little island or around a bend, and anticipate for something to happen. It's called law enforcement.

Bingo, you're it.....got you! Out on the water, you can always run, but you can't hide. Where you gonna run to?

Let's see...in Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, or New Jersey....first speed violation=loss of your good driver's discount which stays on your record for three years...and costs maybe $500./year in higher insurance. How much is 3 x 500, plus the $88 NH fine?

Hottrucks · 02-10-2008, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

. Why not use excessive speed as the limit on route 93? Because it will not work, that's why.

?

They do next time it's snow drive by a State trouper going 65 and see what it gets you..............

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Bingo, you're it.....got you! Out on the water, you can always run, but you can't hide. Where you gonna run to?

Let's see...in Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, or New Jersey....first speed violation=loss of your good driver's discount which stays on your record for three years...and costs maybe $500./year in higher insurance. How much is 3 x 500, plus the $88 NH fine?

First off IF they hunt you down there is no way for them to prove who was driving ......thank you have a nice day....

second the new laws keep things on your record for 7 years......

hazelnut · 02-10-2008, 12:39 PM

Bear Islander,

The burden of proof lies squarely on your and the supporters shoulders. It's not up to me to provide hypothetical situations in which speed might be a factor.

You go ahead and list all the fatal accidents or accidents that involved injury in the state of New Hampshire that involved a boat traveling in excess of the arbitrary magic number of 45MPH. That is your burden not mine. I'm not the one trying to pass a law. I just want the MP to enforce the existing laws that are designed with safety in mind. Not some random 45MPH limit that is based on nothing.

fatlazyless · 02-10-2008, 01:00 PM

Snowmobiles have a New Hampshire land speed limit of 45mph, and snowmos even have brakes, & groomed trails, which boats do not have. After HB847 is law, snowmos will continue to not have a speed limit on Winnipesaukee, so's at least you'll still be able to run that snowmo up to 125mph, if you want. Got to be an optimist, here!

236-111.....14-10......hut-hut-hut....hike!!!

Bear Islander · 02-10-2008, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Bear Islander,

The burden of proof lies squarely on your and the supporters shoulders. It's not up to me to provide hypothetical situations in which speed might be a factor.

You go ahead and list all the fatal accidents or accidents that involved injury in the state of New Hampshire that involved a boat traveling in excess of the arbitrary magic number of 45MPH. That is your burden not mine. I'm not the one trying to pass a law. I just want the MP to enforce the existing laws that are designed with safety in mind. Not some random 45MPH limit that is based on nothing.

Spin, Spin, Spin... now they must be fatal or involve injury... see what I mean. And why not over 25 mph at night? that is what HB847 is.

However the real problem is proving the speed. The Marine Patrol does not list specific speeds in boating accidents. Even if they did the argument is that those speeds are "only estimates". I have been down this road before.

I don't need to prove anything. 236 to 111

The truth is there have been many serious or fatal accidents, on Winni and off. Real people are really dead. But the opposition closes its eyes to every one.

hazelnut · 02-10-2008, 01:12 PM

SPIN???

You are a riot!! Ok name ANY!!!! ANY ANY ANY ACCIDENT that involved over 45 during the day and over 25 at night.... HA HA HA SPIN?!?!?!? HA HA HA HA. You lose credibility with every post BI. I'm really at a loss for words to describe your inability to debate a subject based on facts.

FLL,

GREAT POINT. I bet we could find far more speed related fatalities on Snow Mobiles. However no cry for a speed limit because Bear Islander and other special interest groups aren't ascared or bothered by snowmobiles.

Bear Islander · 02-10-2008, 01:38 PM

And why does the fatal Meredith Bay accident from 2002 not count?

28 mph at night.

awaiting spin cycle...

hazelnut · 02-10-2008, 01:46 PM

Why is it Spin when you don't agree with something? It's like debating a child. Why should I even respond to you any more? Whatever I say right now will be written off by you as spin. I'm not going down that road. Anyway is that the best you have? That accident from almost six years ago. Lets say I accept that accident, I won't bring up any debate over that one. I'll give you that one. I'm laughing as I type that last sentence..... Anyway, you can have it. So that's it? That's the reason for a Speed Limit on Lake Winnipesaukee?

Bravo Bear Islander you've proven the case, well done. I concur based on an accident from 2002 that involved a boat traveling 3MPH over the proposed speed limit we should emphatically accept HB847.

Thank you for showing me the light

EricP · 02-10-2008, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I think it was the summer of 2005. I did not measure the speed myself but it was claimed to have gone 130 mph.

How many children in canoes were run over?

Bear Islander · 02-10-2008, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricP

How many children in canoes were run over?

Is that supposed to be funny?

I'm sure the Senators are amused.

EricP · 02-10-2008, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

And why does the fatal Meredith Bay accident from 2002 not count?

28 mph at night.

awaiting spin cycle...

estimated 28mph, there was radar gun there so there is no way to accurately state the speed of that idiot's boat. Alcohol was the problem, not speed. Even if there was a speed limit 28mph is not really such a huge infraction that we need a law passed. ALCOHOL was the problem.

EricP · 02-10-2008, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Is that supposed to be funny?

I'm sure the Senators are amused.

Point being is there was no accident so talking about a fast boat that didn't have an accident is no defense of the need for a speed limit.

chipj29 · 02-11-2008, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Check Photopost for a 130-MPH Nor-tech in Alton Bay.

Can you see the "driver"?

Nor can he see you.

Wow! That boat is FLYING! He must be going what, about 5 or 6 knots? Man, look at the wake he is putting down! OMG Look out everybody, it is a big bad GFBL!!

GWC... · 02-11-2008, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Check Photopost for a 130-MPH Nor-tech in Alton Bay.

Can you see the "driver"?

Nor can he see you.

One could say the same about the driver's "danger zone" in this quaint sailboat pic.

Must be nerve-racking not knowing what's on the other side of the jib?!

Is this an example of driving-by-feel? If you don't feel anything; you must not have hit anything?

See how easy it is to spin?!

Hottrucks · 02-11-2008, 02:16 PM

I could take him If I could get over his wake

Wolfeboro_Baja · 02-15-2008, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alton Bay

I read with interest all the points being taken on both sides of the debate. However, the fact is, the House has passed a speed limit bill. I have to wonder how many legislators have ever even been to the Lake? Rather than beat this issue to death, have people been contacting their state senators? They hold the speed limit bill in their hands. Does anyone know where they stand?

I signed up for NHRBA emails regarding HB162 (and now HB847). At one point, I emailed back and suggested that NHRBA organize a day to invite ALL the legislators for a ride on a performance boat (preferably boats of different lengths), to show them first-hand what 45mph looks and feels like and what 25mph looks like to the driver. Later on, during this past summer, when I ran into an NHRBA officer (from Alton Bay, I believe) and mentioned my suggestion, I was informed that they had attempted to organize something like that but the offer was turned down because the legislators were afraid of the appearance of accepting a "gift" from the performance boat owners. To me, it sounds more like they weren't interested in getting any factual evidence about something they had probably already made up their collective minds about.

Acres Per Second originally posted the photo below and it illustrates a point I haven't seen discussed here as of yet. As you can see from the picture, this boat is not moving very fast, probably headway speed or slightly above (he's certainly not on plane and he's creating very little wake). APS stated in his original post, "Can you see the "driver"? Nor can he see you.

" Notice the "bow up" attitude of the boat; at slightly more than headway speed, it's difficult to see over the bow of a 30ft boat. At 25mph, the bow is even higher in the air, making it even more difficult to see what might be ahead of you!! I don't know the specifics of everyone's boat, but I know my own 25ft Baja won't get up on plane at 25mph and even if I pushed to 35mph to get on plane, it won't stay there if I throttle back to 25mph. I spoke with the owner of a 42ft Fountain once and he told me he can barely keep it on plane at 40mph! So if HB847 passes, you've now exchanged one safety hazard for another; you've slowed us down to a "safe" speed but now we can't see where we're going!!! Thanks for blinding me in the pursuit of safety!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alton Bay

Also, interesting that most Alton businesses do not support a speed limit. Ask them ( and Alton residents) if they support a noise limit and they would say "yes" and... you know what?? We have a law regarding noise. Is it enforced?? I can tell you it's very noisy in Alton (maybe cuz it's narrow?) and it certainly isn't just from GFLB. Let's enforce the laws on the books.

If noise is such a problem on the lake, ask your state reps why the state bans switchable exhausts on boats?? When I bought my boat, I inquired about a switchable exhaust but I was told they were outlawed by the state however no reason was offered. Personally, I'd LOVE to have a switchable exhaust so I could quiet the exhaust down when I'm in a crowded environment (docking, etc.) or if I'm out at night and returning to my dock and don't want to bother the neighbors. But, the state bans them, probably only because they're banned for automobiles and trucks!! After all, if they're bad on land, they MUST be bad on the water (just like speed limits are good on land so they MUST be good on the water, no?)!!

Perhaps it's time this one small section of law is reviewed and maybe, CHANGED!! If anyone knows WHY switchable exhausts are banned on boats, please let me know because I honestly don't see the logic in that.

Bear Islander · 02-15-2008, 01:15 PM

I don't know anything about your boat, but if you can't operate at legal speeds AND be able to see where you are going, then it should not be on a crowded lake.

I have heard the switchable exhaust story before. There might be a few responsible people that would use it in a crowded environment. However I'm sure the reason it is illegal is because it would mostly be used to quiet down when the Marine Patrol was around.... I was born at night, but I wasn't born LAST night.

nightrider · 02-15-2008, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Snowmobiles have a New Hampshire land speed limit of 45mph, and snowmos even have brakes, & groomed trails, which boats do not have. After HB847 is law, snowmos will continue to not have a speed limit on Winnipesaukee, so's at least you'll still be able to run that snowmo up to 125mph, if you want. Got to be an optimist, here!

236-111.....14-10......hut-hut-hut....hike!!!

Unfortunately, once the boat speed limit is passed, it will only be a matter of time before the "take-your-freedom-away" crowd go after the sleds on the lake. It's like they can't help themselves. If there's not an active issue they can work on to restrict others' activities, then they're not happy.

Dave R · 02-15-2008, 01:32 PM

I'd like to see switchable exhaust become legal, but only if the boat passed the noise requirements on both settings. The reason they are illegal is because they typically fail the noise test when set to "open".

Oddly, I have to agree with BI about boats that ride dangerously bow high (meaning the view forward is blocked) at speeds above 25 MPH. Sounds like a design issue that should be addressed. Sustained operation in that mode is reckless, IMO, and ought to earn the operator a ticket. If it's not possible to maintain planing speed, the operator should reduce speed to bring the bow down far enough to see. That's just common sense.

That said, I've never, ever, seen a GFBL operated in this manner. Riding bow-up and making a huge wake is much more common on cabin cruisers, bass boats, and bow riders, from what I have witnessed. Unless it's really choppy, I have never been able to figure out why anyone would do that. It's the least efficient speed possible on any boat.

codeman671 · 02-15-2008, 04:24 PM

Honestly, at both settings on the exhaust (thru-hull and diverted down) as long as the decibel level meets state law why ban it??? Hmm, I can go from legal to even quieter and back again with a switch. Maybe mandate that if equipped it needs to be on the quieter setting at night?

As far as the picture posted by APS, from the distance that the picture was taken it is hard to see the driver anyhow. It has nothing to do with the nose of the boat...That is misleading. Go figure?

I don't see boats typically driving around with their noses so high in the air that they can't see where they are going. That is not the problem on the lake.

To heck with the 130mph Cat, below is a speedo pic from my boat, 194mph. Bet the Cat can't do that! (actually it was a bad ground that whacked out the speedo but the picture was priceless)

ApS · 02-16-2008, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

"...That is misleading...I don't see boats typically driving around with their noses so high in the air that they can't see where they are going. That is not the problem on the lake.

For Winni, always drive GFBLs so you can drive anywhere—in any weather—in comfort.

Wolfeboro_Baja · 02-16-2008, 03:53 PM

OK, let me try this again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BearIslander

I have heard the switchable exhaust story before. There might be a few responsible people that would use it in a crowded environment. However I'm sure the reason it is illegal is because it would mostly be used to quiet down when the Marine Patrol was around.... I was born at night, but I wasn't born LAST night.

BI, where did I say anything about lifting the existing decibel limits? I didn’t!! So, as codeman671 put it, I could either be legally loud or courteous and quiet. What a novel idea!!! God forbid I should ever try to be courteous because we all know performance boaters are not courteous!! Yeah, right; what a bunch of BS!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by BearIslander

I don't know anything about your boat, but if you can't operate at legal speeds AND be able to see where you are going, then it should not be on a crowded lake.

Nice, twist my words. BI, I CAN operate my boat at legal speeds because for now, at least, “legal” is “reasonable and prudent under the existing conditions” which means I’m allowed to throttle up, at night, to get my boat up on plane so I can SEE where I’m going without having the bow of my boat blocking my forward visibility. I can also see in front of my boat if I’m moving at no-wake speed. 25mph is where the problem arises; it's simply too slow to get my, and I'm guessing alot of other boats, up on plane. If the 25mph night-time speed limit is imposed, the only way I would be able to keep the bow down so I could see in front of my boat, would be to break the speed limit to get up on plane and stay there (GASP!) or motor at no-wake speed and, to borrow from Dave_R, no-wake speed is not the most efficient speed possible on a boat. My wife and I work hard to afford our boat; we're not rich. Since we're not rich, I’m not going to waste money and fuel! You pro-limit people think all the GFBL people are “rich” but I, for one, am NOT! Oh, I almost forgot, there is one other option, stay home and not go out at all. But this isn’t about keeping a certain type of boat off the lake, is it?!?!?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_R

Oddly, I have to agree with BI about boats that ride dangerously bow high (meaning the view forward is blocked) at speeds above 25 MPH. Sounds like a design issue that should be addressed. Sustained operation in that mode is reckless, IMO, and ought to earn the operator a ticket. If it's not possible to maintain planing speed, the operator should reduce speed to bring the bow down far enough to see. That's just common sense.

Dave_R, as far as I know, it’s not a “design issue” that needs to be addressed but then again, I’m not a designer. From my own personal experience and what little bit I’ve read about boat design, any boat that has a “planing” type of hull will encounter a bow high condition until it reaches planing speed. Obviously, the lighter and/or shorter the boat, the lower the planing speed will be. You’ve “never, ever, seen a GFBL operated in this manner” because we (the performance boat owner/driver) KNOW it’s unsafe and our intent is to get up on plane as soon as we are clear of traffic (this is where the 150’ rule comes into play!) so that we CAN see in front of us! Apparently, the intent IS to keep a certain type of boat off the lake, because the longer and heavier a boat is, the higher the minimum planing speed of said boat. So if the 25mph limit is imposed, a lot of performance boat owners won’t be able to safely use their boat at night.

Dave_R, in one paragraph you say “If it's not possible to maintain planing speed, the operator should reduce speed to bring the bow down far enough to see. That's just common sense” and in the next paragraph “It's the least efficient speed possible on any boat.”, referring to bow high operation. We can’t have it both ways. Most, maybe not all, performance boats can’t “reduce speed to bring the bow down far enough to see” (to meet the proposed 25mph night-time limit) and still operate efficiently. I don’t want to waste the fuel (and money) by being on the lake at night and only go “no-wake” speed and besides, we’ve already heard from the people claiming we pollute more than any other type of boat (including the two-cycle outboards?) so it’s really not advisable for that reason also.

This is why the current standard, “reasonable and prudent under the existing conditions”, is STILL the best alternative. It’s not the performance boaters making the lake unsafe, it’s the boneheads that either don’t know or ignore the existing laws that are unsafe. Fund the MP so they can enforce the existing laws and ticket THEM to death until they either get it straight or stop coming here altogether but don’t legislate us to death for their ignorance and/or arrogance.

OK, rip me apart; I know someone out there wants to do it.

Lakegeezer · 02-16-2008, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfeboro_Baja

25mph is where the problem arises; it's simply too slow to get my, and I'm guessing alot of other boats, up on plane.

This kind of boat might encourage agressive driving. If a captain has to fall below 25 to avoid traffic, it probably takes a gallon or so of extra gas to regain a plane. In congested times, what is a captain to do?

Dave R · 02-16-2008, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfeboro_Baja

If the 25mph night-time speed limit is imposed, the only way I would be able to keep the bow down so I could see in front of my boat, would be to break the speed limit to get up on plane and stay there (GASP!) or motor at no-wake speed and, to borrow from Dave_R, no-wake speed is not the most efficient speed possible on a boat.

Dave_R, as far as I know, it’s not a “design issue” that needs to be addressed but then again, I’m not a designer. From my own personal experience and what little bit I’ve read about boat design, any boat that has a “planing” type of hull will encounter a bow high condition until it reaches planing speed. Obviously, the lighter and/or shorter the boat, the lower the planing speed will be. You’ve “never, ever, seen a GFBL operated in this manner” because we (the performance boat owner/driver) KNOW it’s unsafe and our intent is to get up on plane as soon as we are clear of traffic (this is where the 150’ rule comes into play!) so that we CAN see in front of us! Apparently, the intent IS to keep a certain type of boat off the lake, because the longer and heavier a boat is, the higher the minimum planing speed of said boat. So if the 25mph limit is imposed, a lot of performance boat owners won’t be able to safely use their boat at night.

Dave_R, in one paragraph you say “If it's not possible to maintain planing speed, the operator should reduce speed to bring the bow down far enough to see. That's just common sense” and in the next paragraph “It's the least efficient speed possible on any boat.”, referring to bow high operation. We can’t have it both ways. Most, maybe not all, performance boats can’t “reduce speed to bring the bow down far enough to see” (to meet the proposed 25mph night-time limit) and still operate efficiently. I don’t want to waste the fuel (and money) by being on the lake at night and only go “no-wake” speed and besides, we’ve already heard from the people claiming we pollute more than any other type of boat (including the two-cycle outboards?) so it’s really not advisable for that reason also.

This is why the current standard, “reasonable and prudent under the existing conditions”, is STILL the best alternative. It’s not the performance boaters making the lake unsafe, it’s the boneheads that either don’t know or ignore the existing laws that are unsafe. Fund the MP so they can enforce the existing laws and ticket THEM to death until they either get it straight or stop coming here altogether but don’t legislate us to death for their ignorance and/or arrogance.

OK, rip me apart; I know someone out there wants to do it.

I am very much against speed limits. I don't want to rip anyone apart. I like to see boats like your on the lake even though I have no desire to own one or hear one if it's loud. Does yours have those cool purple graphics Baja seems to sell a lot of?

I disagree about fuel efficiency, hulls are most efficient at displacement speeds. They are least efficient when running bow high and making a big wake. Planing hulls are also pretty efficient (some nearly as efficient as displacement speed) when cleanly up on plane, but no faster. I can see how some GFBL boats would be propped such that even at idle speed, they are above displacement speed and perhaps getting a little less MPG than they would cleanly up on plane, but the difference would be negligible and the MPG would be vastly superior to plowing speed.

Say the speed limit passes:

If you operate your boat at idle, in gear, the bow will be down enough to see properly and you'll be well below the proposed speed limit and operating safely, efficiently and legally.

If you operate at 24 MPH with the bow blocking your forward vision, you'll be legally staying below the speed limit, but not very safe, and you'll be wasting a bunch of fuel.

If you operate at 26 MPH with the bow down, and light conditions allow you to do this safely, you'll be doing the smartest thing, but breaking the law.

If you have a boat that can't plane below 25 MPH, you still can operate at night safely and legally, it's just not much fun.

I hope it does not pass.

Wolfeboro_Baja · 02-16-2008, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

This kind of boat might encourage agressive driving. If a captain has to fall below 25 to avoid traffic, it probably takes a gallon or so of extra gas to regain a plane. In congested times, what is a captain to do?

That depends on the captain. IMO, this type of boat requires cautious driving. In congested times, common sense dictates slowing down to headway speed. In my opinion, congested implies an inability to maintain 150ft from all other boats/craft in the vicinity which means we should ALL be moving at no-wake speed in that vicinity. I slow down whenever I'm near (meaning within 200ft of) other boats to wait and see because I never know what they're going to do!

In the situation you suggested, I'm not concerned with the amount of fuel needed to get back on plane once I'm clear of congested traffic, but I don't like the implication that, if the 25mph limit is imposed, if I want to travel back from Weirs Beach to Wolfeboro at night, I'll have to do it at headway speed (and waste MORE fuel than in the scenario you suggested) even if there were no other craft within 500ft of my boat the entire way!!

Think of the no-wake zone between Eagle and Governor's Islands. No way is that 450 feet across but most boaters wouldn't slow down to no-wake speed if they were going through there at the same time another boat was. MP (or whoever makes these decisions) had to mark it as a no-wake zone because people did not use common sense and slow down when they were going through. And even with that no-wake zone marked, people STILL don't slow down when going through there!! I'm constantly cursing to myself about the boneheads that ignore the 150ft rule in this particular area (Eagle/Governor Isl.).

Wolfeboro_Baja · 02-16-2008, 06:35 PM

Dave, I wasn't referring to you when I said "ok, rip me apart", I just knew somebody will eventually. I think your posts on this issue have been very sane. To be honest, when I was writing that post, I couldn't remember where you stood on the issue but I felt I had to address the comments you made.

To answer your other question, no, my wife hates purple!! We have bright yellow, lime green and dark blue graphics; actually, they look very nice together!

Regarding displacement hulls, I don't know how efficient or inefficient they are compared to planing hulls But I did find this at About.com:Powerboating:

Quote:

Some advantages of a displacement hull are 1. a relatively small engine can easily drive it; thus, its ability to travel long distances is outstanding, and 2. because it's traveling through the water, not on top of it, it has a very smooth, seaworthy ride. However, an obvious disadvantage is that this boat hull is slower than molasses in January!

Regarding planing hulls, the same website had this to say (but they made no comment as to fuel efficiency):

Quote:

When a planing hull is either not moving or going very slowly, it is, in effect, a displacement hull. As power and speed increase, however, a planing hull lifts itself up on top of its own bow wave. This causes the boat to displace much less water. As a result, there is much less wetted surface on the hull bottom, meaning much less friction as well. The speed of the boat will now increase at a great rate. With this hull, the more horsepower added, the faster the boat will go.

Now, to answer your questions about if the speed limit passes:

Quote:

If you operate your boat at idle, in gear, the bow will be down enough to see properly and you'll be well below the proposed speed limit and operating safely, efficiently and legally.

Not going to happen because of the high cost of fuel and I can't afford to waste it.

Quote:

If you operate at 24 MPH with the bow blocking your forward vision, you'll be legally staying below the speed limit, but not very safe, and you'll be wasting a bunch of fuel.

Also not going to happen because of the safety issue and the cost of fuel that I cannot afford to waste.

Quote:

If you operate at 26 MPH with the bow down, and light conditions allow you to do this safely, you'll be doing the smartest thing, but breaking the law.

If my memory serves me correctly, my boat must be moving approx. 32mph to stay on plane and that's with my trim tabs ALL THE WAY DOWN. I'm not sure I'd even do this because I can't afford the speeding ticket on my license. But let me ask you this; how many people do you think actually ALWAYS travel at the posted speed limits on land (30, 35, 45, 65, etc.)? Most of the time, I'm travelling at 5mph above the posted limit and I've done it either in front of or behind the police travelling in the same direction with me or passing by in the opposite direction with no hand gesture to slow down.

Quote:

If you have a boat that can't plane below 25 MPH, you still can operate at night safely and legally, it's just not much fun.

Correct and the pro-limit people will have won and taken away my freedom of enjoying my leisure time the way I want to.

Skipper of the Sea Que · 02-27-2008, 08:45 AM

This quote from the Radar Thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evenstar

I have been totally honest here. Yet whenever I mention the fact that I have had high speed boats violate my 150 foot zone - because they were apparently going too fast to see me in time - {snip} I have never twisted anything, yet I have been repeatedly accused of doing do. The truth is that some operators travel faster then their ability to see smaller boats in time to stay out of the 150 foot zone. I've seen this happen way too much.

Evenstar, you have consistently claimed that your 150' space is violated by boaters who CAN NOT SEE you due to their excessive speed. I have no doubt that you honestly feel that way. One fallacy is that many of these boaters may actually see you and just not care. Another is that it's primarily boaters going over 45 mph that can not see you soon enough to avoid your 150' zone.

Boaters have violated my 150' space going much slower than 45 mph and some are Go Fast boats that aren't going over 45mph. My 24' cruiser is not low in the water and it's easy to see. I conclude that these violators don't know or care about the 150' rule. I'm up high enough so I can often see that they see me. This is an education and enforcement issue, not a speed problem.

Why do you not address the main theme of your fear - Boaters INABILITY TO SEE WELL. Where is it required that boaters have good vision? Why are you seemingly unconcerned about that?

As an extreme example of my point: What prevents a legally BLIND person from taking the helm of ANY recreational boat on Winnie? At 30 or 50 mph it really won't make much difference if they can't see well in the first place. Even if they see well enough to have a driver's license it may not be good enough in my opinion.

I won't use this un-retouched picture to bolster my point but I can tell you that the Captain of this cat did not see the boy or his OCEAN KAYAK less than 20' away!! Plus now I know what an Ocean Kayak looks like.

Evenstar · 02-27-2008, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que

This quote from the Radar Thread
Evenstar, you have consistently claimed that your 150' space is violated by boaters who CAN NOT SEE you due to their excessive speed. I have no doubt that you honestly feel that way. One fallacy is that many of these boaters may actually see you and just not care. Another is that it's primarily boaters going over 45 mph that can not see you soon enough to avoid your 150' zone.

The speed limit will not prevent all unsafe behavior on the lake - and I've never sugested that it would.

But I do know that some power boat operators travel faster then their ability to see smaller boats in time to remain outside of the 150 foot zone. I am basing this on their surprised reaction, when they do finally spot me. Slower boats always seem to see me in plenty of time - it's the faster boats that are the problem in this situation - and a speed limit will in my opinion make this less likely to result in a serious accident.

People do intentionally violate the 150 foot rule all the time, but the violation of one law does not negate the need for a different law. Perhaps we do need a vision test as well. There's a great deal that can be done to make boating safer - in my opinion the speed limit is one of the needed steps in making the lake(s) safer for everyone.

Mashugana · 02-28-2008, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que

This quote from the Radar Thread

Where is it required that boaters have good vision? Why are you seemingly unconcerned about that?

As an extreme example of my point: What prevents a legally BLIND person from taking the helm of ANY recreational boat on Winnie? At 30 or 50 mph it really won't make much difference if they can't see well in the first place. Even if they see well enough to have a driver's license it may not be good enough in my opinion.

Interesting thoughts Skipper. How would a vision check be put in place? Eyesight testing does not seem practical.

You can put speed limits in place but you won't see vision tests as you have for driver's licenses. Speed limit proponents feel that their method is the most practical for that feel good feeling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skipper of the sea que

the Captain of this cat did not see the boy or his OCEAN KAYAK less than 20' away!! Plus now I know what an Ocean Kayak looks like.

Sails can block vision but at sailing speed the kayaker could blow the whistle or yell to the catamaran to alert people to his position. That sail catamaran is lucky to get 10 mph so speed limits would not make any difference here.

How could you deal with any vision requirement for boaters?

Wolfeboro_Baja · 03-04-2008, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mashugana

How could you deal with any vision requirement for boaters?

Since there are special licenses and testing for motorcycles, commercial trucks (different classes of licenses for different classes of trucks), etc., perhaps it's time for a real license for operation of a boat. A vision test could be administered at the time the license is issued or renewed. All fees generated from a boat license could be directed solely to the Marine Patrol to increase their staff. Mandate that if the boat owner lives out-of-state but registers their boat in NH, they MUST have the NH boat license. Then, find a way to mandate those visiting from out-of-state have something similar showing that they KNOW the boating laws of NH and know how to operate a boat safely. That last one would probably be the toughest one to implement.

At the very least, in lieu of an actual license, maybe all boaters should be required to take a refresher of the boater safety course every 5 years or so.

We all know ignorance of the law is no excuse but if anyone wants to be ignorant, just don't let them operate a boat!

02-08-2008, 08:05 PM	#102
hazelnut Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,348 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 508 Thanked 462 Times in 162 Posts	Excellent Analogy jrc, Excellent post. It further solidifies my point. Imagine that Bear Islander? A foolish law enacted preventing us from using our Island Homes? Based on fear mongering and no real fact? People dreaming up scenarios that "could" or "might" happen.

02-08-2008, 08:55 PM	#105
Cal Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Pitman , NJ Posts: 627 Thanks: 40 Thanked 21 Times in 12 Posts	It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out even if there were no other boats on the lake , simply for the rescue distance in case of a mishap. __________________ Paddle faster , I think I here banjos

02-08-2008, 09:29 PM	#108
hazelnut Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,348 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 508 Thanked 462 Times in 162 Posts	True So we agree there is a problem of congestion, and dangerous behavior right? Let's simplify the debate even further: Bear Islander and all supporters of the HB in question please answer a simple yes or no to the following question. No adjective, description, comment, argument just a simple y/n or if you prefer yes/no. The biggest problem on the lake today is that boats are speeding. Yes or No My answer = NO!

02-08-2008, 09:58 PM	#112
hazelnut Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,348 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 508 Thanked 462 Times in 162 Posts	Kudos Bear Islander, I do appreciate your honesty. I believe you are a reasonable person who is frustrated with the state of things on the lake. We share common ground with regard to our feelings about safety on the lake. As you have stated we just disagree on the solution. I do not expect to convert you. It's a shame it has come to this. I know you think that there is a light at the end of the tunnel with a speed limit. I really do not believe that a speed limit will solve anything. Education and enforcement is the answer. Side note: is this truly a partisan issue? Are you a democrat

02-08-2008, 10:38 PM	#115
hazelnut Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,348 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 508 Thanked 462 Times in 162 Posts	The list While that list represents individual businesses that support the Speed Limit it absolutely DOES NOT represent PROOF that tourism is being affected by fast boats. That my friend is one gigantic leap.

02-08-2008, 08:04 PM	#101
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	Those Nashua islanders should have bought themselves a big twin engine fire boat, portable Indian Pumps and received firefighting training like the residents of Bear Island did.

02-08-2008, 08:24 PM	#104
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	Sorry, not a good analogy at all. You have already admitted a problem exists on the lake, we only differ on the solution. Remember earlier in this thread when Dick posted.. "Any camp director who would allow the kids to swim beyond the swim line buoys or take a canoe out onto the big lake should be fired immediately." It seems like Dick also sees the danger. If I ever get an inkling that living on the island is endangering my child, I will leave immediately, no legislation will be required.

02-08-2008, 09:26 PM	#107
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	Our emergency response time is good. Several 911 calls have been made from the island in recent years, one from our home. The Marine Patrol usually arrives first, the fire boat is not far behind. There must be many homes in Meredith and the surrounding area, that due to their remote location have longer response times than the islands. From the Fire Station to my cabin is less than four miles.

02-08-2008, 09:35 PM	#109
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	No .....

02-08-2008, 10:02 PM	#114
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	No ...

02-08-2008, 10:52 PM	#116
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	The point is not if they think tourism if effected by fast boats. The point is that they support a speed limit. And that, in my opinion, constitutes all the proof necessary. Many of these business are run by good old American Yankees, (the good kind, not the baseball kind). They know which side of the bread is buttered (and other euphemisms like that).

02-08-2008, 11:16 PM	#117
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	I'll finish this up then bow out of this thread until new data arrives. I will never convince BI and he will not scare me. It's like trying to convince my wife that polar bears don't eat penquins. They look so tasty why wouldn't they eat them. That's the list of places that supported HB -161 three years ago, that is not a list of places who currently support a speed limit. So to finish lets look at the last twenty years. The boat registrations in NH grew about 2% a year since 1988. Around 2002 they flatenned and then started shrinking about 2% a year. This is also true at the national level. (don't buy boat stocks) There are now double the amount of PWC sold as in 1988. Since PWC are a large portion of the total number of registered boats, I would have to reason that there has to be less non-pwc boats. Otherwise we would have more total growth. I don't know what a Nor-tech is, I'm into comfort not speed. The USCG stats do differentiate between engine type and length but the stats are presented differently each year so trends are hard to follow. If you get past banning fast boats and get to banning big boats, it might be worth the trouble to ferret out the data and plot it. Now maybe the USCG fudged all this data just so they can get jobs in the boating industry. Sounds silly, huh?

02-08-2008, 11:26 PM	#118
WeirsBeachBoater Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 709 Blog Entries: 9 Thanks: 39 Thanked 148 Times in 65 Posts	Love this list. Here is how I dissect this list. See the bold for explanation, My favorite is how all the Great American dining establishments are listed individually. There are 6 Alex Ray places, that should only count once! Many others in Bold are tenants of Rusty McClear, and I asked at least one when this list came out why they were on it. I was told she didn't feel she had a choice! I could go on and on. But the bottom line is this list is a joke, most of it is repeats, and some businesses didn't even know they were listed. If anyone wants I can go into more details! The Common Man 1. Ashalnd Insurance Strictly Rentals Wild Meadow Canoes and Kayaks Centre Harbor Cellars Center Harbor Inn AMC (Appalachian Mountain Club) NH Audubon New Hampshire Lakes Association (NHLA) Decker Machinery Company The Architectural Studio Fay’s Boat Yard Birch Island Camp Association Gilford Islands Association (GIA) Jolly Island Association Lockes Island Association Belknap Landscaping Company Design Quest DK Net Design E&S Insurance LLC The Hair Factory Mike’s Ala Carte Catering Pepi Herrmann Crystal, Inc. Glendale Marine River Edge Marina Squam Lakes Association (SLA) Cottage Place on Squam Lake Squam Lake Inn Me Designs Barrons Billiards Blooms Vanity J&J Printing LaBelles Shoe Store Central & Northern Title Haughey, Philpot & Laurent Lakeside Hotel Assoc. Sundial Shops Paugus Bay Marina Best Western Silver Fox Inn Griffin Bodi Krause Municipal Resources, Inc. Great Northern Trading Co Rusty tenant Meredith Marina Y-Landing = Were not aware they were listed. Call them and ask now! Bear Island Conservation Association (BICA) East Bear Island Conservation Association AMC- 3 Mile Island Winnipesaukee Rowing Club Alexandria Lamp Shop Case N’ Keg Chris Dupont Painting Christopher P. Williams, Architects Eisenberg Chiropractic Hawkins Photography Landscapes By Tom League of NH Craftsmen Mastiff Builders Omni Signs Patricia’s “Specially for You” Pemi Glass Company Pretty Petunias Garden Center Remax Bay Side Real Estate Remcon/North Sagecliff Software, Inc. The Village Perk Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad + Hobo Railroad Same owner!!!!! GASCO Realty, LLC 51 Main Street, LLc Inns & Spa at Mill Falls Rusty again Meredith Bay Painting The Lake House Grille 2. Lago 3. Camp 4. Town Docks Restaurant 5. Alex ray Mame's The Gallery at Mill Falls Rusty again Oglethorp Guiseppies Resturant Felt threatened by landlord (Ask Julie I did) Northern Air Trading Lady of the Lake Clothing Adorments Rusty tenants Creative Clothing Christopher P. Williams, Architect Oak Street Associates Old Mill Insurance Innisfree Bookstore Rusty tenant Phoenix Leasing, Inc. Another Rusty McClear partner! Silver Top Ventures Principal Office Address: Mill Falls Marketplace 312 Daniel Webster Highway Meredith NH 03253 Wonder who that could be??? Rusty you sneak Minuteman Plumbing & Heating Sava Designs Horn Insurance Harts Restaurant Fermentation Station LLC Hunter's Waukewan Antiques Village Greenery Etcetera Shop Associated Surveyors Moulton Farm Barber Pole Association Trexler’s Marina Land’s End Wyman Trail Association Loon Preservation Committee 1st T Development Corporation The Woodshed Restaurant Castle in the Clouds Amoskeg Insurance EPTAM Plastics The Common Man Inn 6. Guess who? Alex again Corner House Inn Seacoast Kayak Tilton Veterinary Hospital Waterville Valley Condo Rental Thurston’s Marina Lighthouse Inn Weirs Beach Motel and Cottages Van's Hotel Enterprises Wolfboro Inn Island Real Estate of New Hampshire LB Boat Restoration Wolfeboro Trolley Company+Millie B Same Owner!!!! Wolfetrap Restaurant

02-08-2008, 11:29 PM	#119
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	I have no doubt polar bears would eat penguins if they didn't live on opposite ends of the earth.

02-08-2008, 11:41 PM	#121
Resident 2B Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Shore, MA Posts: 1,357 Thanks: 994 Thanked 313 Times in 163 Posts	Regarding the list of supporters..... Now I know where I will no longer spend any of my money, regardless of the final outcome. Thanks so much for this list. It is key to the future activities of my family, and I hope many other families. It is too bad that Mame's is listed. We have been going there once a week for years, but we will never go there again. Hart’s has also been a place for us to go very often, but we will not go there any more either. I will print this list and hang it on the refrigerator with "Do Not Support" as a heading. I refuse to do business with any business that lacks any common sense regarding safe boating on the lake. Speed limits do not address the real safety problems that exist on the lake. Boneheads, disregarding the existing rules, including the well designed 150” rule, are the real safety issue. This bill does nothing to address these irresponsible operators. WinnFab's agenda is not about safety at all. Instead, the WinnFabs agenda is all about restricting boaters that happen to own a certain type of boat. To me, this is not something that we Americans should be supporting, as it is imposing restrictions on a certain group because another group does not like them. Whatever happened to freedom, something that was at the root of our country's beginning? There are no facts to support any of WinnFab’s claims that speed is a factor in safety or in accidents on our lake. I would have hoped the local business on the list had more sense than to support this predatory bill. But since these businesses have openly supported this bill, we now know what we have to do. If you are in favor of real safe boating on the lake and are not supporting HB-847, please join me in a 100% boycott of these businesses. Their actions in supporting this bill tell me they are irrational in their business decisions. Therefore, they should not be supported by people that realize what the real safety issues are on the lake. In this case, money should talk and BS should walk. Do not support any business that intends to restrict your personal freedom because of fabricated and embelished reasons that have no basis in fact. WinnFabs can fool some of the people all of the time, but they cannot, and should not, fool all of the people all of the time. As stated in the past, we are family boaters with two kayaks and a 23' bowrider. We live near the Weirs. We do not have any capability to go over 45 MPH in any of our boats. Safety is our concern and HB847 does not address safety in our opinion. R2B Last edited by Resident 2B; 02-09-2008 at 12:50 AM. Reason: Correcting errors in spelling and adding historical background.

02-08-2008, 11:46 PM	#122
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	That is in fact why the list was posted on offshoreonly. It's the list of businesses they will never use again.

02-09-2008, 06:31 AM	#123
Lakegeezer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 1,677 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 354 Thanked 639 Times in 290 Posts	Does Fabs stand for Fabricated Story? Its too bad that a group hasn't formed to promote safety rather than exclusion, something like WinnSafe. The report from the MP shows that few boats are going over 45. Experienced boaters know that 99% of the safety issues occur under 45. Places on "the list" won't miss a family here and there, because they are not represented by a group. The WinnFabs tricked businesses to sign on during their well funded marketing campaign. Many who signed probably thought they were signing up for safety - not revenge. You really can't blame them. They are fooling a lot of folks on this forum too. What would your business do if someone asked you to sign a petition on safety? They show you a push-poll study showing 90% of non-boaters feel the same way their members do. They show you news articles and editorials that were printed within days of "educational" press releases. They talk about safety, about how kids can't canoe on weekends, how kayakers are almost run over and how Winnipesaukee has become an unfriendly place. Many of their facts are true, but some critical ones are not. They are describing Captain Bonehead, not boats going over 45 MPH. WinnFabs methods remind me too much of why the US is in Iraq. They used fear and lies to justify revenge, and fooled the house into voting for their law. If we are to reduce the fear of boating on the lake, we need to trust those who are trying to make things better, not assume they are fools that have been swayed by fabrications. So far, that group or any proposed law has not appeared. __________________ -lg

02-09-2008, 07:37 AM	#125
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,738 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,007 Times in 735 Posts	Lake Winnipesaukee has been the go-to lake for high speed motorboats since about 1925. Whenever someone has a 'fast boat' on one of the many other NH lakes which annoys the neighbors, the fast boater gets told "your boat is too danged fast for this little lake, so why don't you take it over to the Big Lake, Lake Winnipesaukee. Now, what's happened, is all the Winnipesaukee neighbors are just telling the 'fast boats' the same thing. 'Why don't you go take your fast boat over to the South Pole, or somewhere!' And on the eighth day, God said "Melt down those fast boat, fiberglass hulls, and beat them into kayaks, and the world will be a better place!" Plus, try a bowl of granola, too. Understand the NH Dept of Mental Health is setting up a 'NH Fast Boat Rehabilitation Hospital', where fast-boaters can be admitted so's they can be cured of their "THE NEED FOR SPEED!" Balancing on one leg and eating granola at the same time is a very effective therapy. __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

02-09-2008, 08:52 AM	#127
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	Talk about spin. If the list is so wrong, so inaccurate, so unfair and was obtained fraudulently, then why did the opposition post it on offshoreonly.com Is there a list of businesses that oppose HB847? If there is then post it.

02-09-2008, 09:43 AM	#129
JayDV Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Fairfield, CT & island vacation Posts: 97 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	How was the question worded? When those store owner/operators were approached for signing the list ... 1) How was the subject introduced? As a support request for the speed bill? As an informative conversation with both petitions offered and a choice of which one to sign? 2) In the subject matter: Was the audience asked what their concerns were, vis a vis lake safety (swimmers, camp kids, power boaters, non-power boaters, pollution)? Were they offered full choice of solutions to choose from (speed limit, horsepower restriction, boater education, better enforcement) ? Bear Islander - With all due respect, I was wondering why you qualify your concern of kids to just camp kids or your own? Of the camps on Winni, there are only a few on the islands. I haven't read anywhere here that the camps from the mainland have voiced the same outside boating concerns you listed. I applaud your efforts toward our families children, and as a former day-care host, I can understand the safety concerns. I hope my question aren't misconstrued. Nor, for that matter, have I read of any concerns of the swimmers at the public beaches operated by the townships. Can anyone offer the formal town positions on the lake safety issues?

02-09-2008, 10:06 AM	#130
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	Hazelnut The "proof" is in the huge number of businesses that support speed limits. The list itself is not proof, it's just a list. Instead of picking apart the list and chipping away at the edges how about showing that there are businesses that oppose HB847. I posted something. . . . the opposition is posting nothing! Please tell us about the businesses that oppose HB847 JayDV The reason why I qualified by concerns that way is because both as a camp director, and a parent, I have lost a child. But I wasn't really aware of that connection until you asked.

02-09-2008, 10:29 AM	#131
KonaChick Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 518 Thanks: 19 Thanked 62 Times in 15 Posts	If tourism dollars are down in recent years at Lake Winnipesaukee it has nothing to do with fear of being run over by a fast boat. Simply put it's the economy. We entertain often on weekends up here and have never, not once been told by family or friends that they are afraid to be out on the lake. I take that back...we've been out on the broads on a particullarly choppy day and my mother did turn green. I have walked among BI and his cronies and they do indeed in my humble opinion want to see a certain type of boat/s taken off the lake. Are they using the speed rationale as their smoke screen? That I can't answer but do have my opinion. Do I get shot dirty looks and glaring stares when I take my shiny new pwc over to BI to pick up relatives to come back to our house?? Yes, quiet often.

02-09-2008, 10:32 AM	#132
JayDV Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Fairfield, CT & island vacation Posts: 97 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	BI - Thank you for your candor. I wasn't expecting such a personal motivation. I apologize if I appeared to be lacking in couth. - JayDV

02-09-2008, 10:54 AM	#133
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	JayDV - No problem. Hazelnut You are being very unfair. You started all this by posting a "statement" of your position on speed limits. You asked for a similar statement from me. But you also requested that I not quote or pick apart your statement. Although I thought it contained a lot of unsupported opinion, I have done as you requested and not attacked it. I posted my "statement" as requested. Now you and others are attacking every word. A capital case is being made out of my suggestion that increased numbers of larger and faster boats will cause more pollution. And it is now my responsibility to PROVE that speed limits are good for tourism. Like you, much of what I posted was my opinion. Unlike you, I accepted your statement at face value, and stuck to the agreement.

02-09-2008, 12:20 PM	#136
WeirsBeachBoater Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 709 Blog Entries: 9 Thanks: 39 Thanked 148 Times in 65 Posts	BI you asked for the list here it is! These NH Businesses and Associations Oppose House Bill 847 New Hampshire Recreational Boaters Association New Hampshire Wildlife Federation New Hampshire Bass Federation Marine Industry Businesses ACL Industries - Manchester Adam's Marina - Winnisquam Adhesive Engineering & Supply, Inc. - Seabrook All Professional Sports - Gilford Andrew's Marine Service - Alton Bay Art's Power Equipment - Belmont Atlantic Watercraft Club (charter of American Watercraft Association) - Salem Averys Auto & Marine - Newport Back Bay Marina - Wolfeboro Beede Electrical Instrument Co., Inc. - Penacook Biggart Marine - Plaistow Bob's Beacon Marine - Newbury Browns Auto and Marine - Newport Center Harbor Dock & Pier Co. - Center Harbor Channel Marine - Laconia C.F.M. Technologies - Moultonboro Corey's Doreys - GIlford Dasilva Motorsports - Hampstead, Moultonboro Dave’s Motorboat Shoppe, LLC - Gilford Derry Marine & Salvage - Derry Diamond Shine Boat Detailing - Gilford Dock Doctor - Gilford Dover Marine - Portsmouth East Coast Marine Storage - Epping Eastcoast Flightcraft Marine of New Hampshire - Meredith East Coast Performance Center - Salem Eliminator, Inc. - Lee Epping Motor Sports - Epping Extreme Motor Sports - Windham Gator Signs - Gilford George's Marina - Dover Gillan Marine Inc - Alton Bay Granite State Boatworks - Milford Glendale Marina - Gilford Gray's Marina - Enfield Great Bay Marina - Newington Green's Marine, Inc. - Hooksett Goodhue Marine, Inc. - Center Harbor Hampton River Marina - Hampton Harpers Boat Restoration - Meredith HK Powersports - Laconia, Tilton, Hooksett Irwin Marine - Laconia, Hudson, Alton, Litchfield Jack Willey's - Tilton JFG Enterprises Prop Jim's Mopar Performance - Salem JP Boating, LLC - Laconia Lakeport Landing Marina - Laconia Lakes Region Fiberglass - Laconia Lakeside Boat Rentals - Alton Bay Little Bay Marina - Dover Lucky Lenny's Power Place - Tilton Marine USA - Milford Marlin Products Div. Pompanette LLC - Charlestown Melvin Village Marina - Melvin Village Miles Marine - Gilford Moultonborough Canvas - Moultonborough National Boat - Deerfield Nault's Windham Honda - Windham New England Boat & Motor - Laconia New England Correct Craft - Rochester Nimar International, Inc. - Walpole Norm's Marina Inc. - Hinsdale North/South Performance Boats - Alton Bay One Stop Toy Shop - Epping Outdoor Performance Center - Bridgewater Outdoor Prop Service - Laconia Owen's Marine - Hooksett Philbricks Sports Center - Dover Plaistow Motorsports - Plaistow Pompanette, LLC - Charlestown Production Trailer + Dock - Meredith Professional Mariner, LLC - Rye R & R Cycles - Manchester Ray’s Marina & RV Sales, Inc - Milton Ray Marine, Inc. - Nashua Rochester Motor Sports - Rochester Rockingham Boat Repair and Sales - Hampstead S & W Sports - Concord Sargents Marine - Georges Mills Shep Brown's Boat Basin - Meredith, Gilford Ship Shape Marine Works - Meredith Shorline CoverWorks - Laconia SilverSands Marina - Gilford Sonic Power Marine of New England, LLC - Weirs Beach Sunapee Harbor Marine - Sunapee The Trailer Outlet - Tilton Vintage Race Boat Shop - Wolfeboro Ward's Boat Shop - Center Ossipee Watermark Marine Construction - Gilford Wentworth by the Sea Marina - New Castle West Marine - Portsmouth Windham Marine - Windham Winnipesaukee Motorsports - Meredith Winnipesaukee Marine Construction - Gilford Winnisquam Marine - Winnisquam Y Landing Marina - Meredith Hotels and Restaurants Anthony's Old Style Pizzeria - Center Harbor Apre’ Cabin rental - Carrol Bayside Inn - Alton Bay Beacon Resort - Lincoln Channel Cottages - Weirs Beach Christmas Island Resort - Laconia Dad's Restaurant - Lincoln Escambuit Campground - Derry King Birch Motor Lodge - Alton Bay Lakehurst Cottages - Alton Bay Maria Atwood Inn B&B - Franklin NASWA Resort - Laconia Pinewood Motel - Bethlehem Anchorage Restaurant - Sunapee Brick Front Restaurant & Lounge - Laconia Christmas Island Steak House - Laconia Crazy Gringos Mexican Restaurant - Weirs Beach Donna Jeans Diner - Weirs Beach Channel Texaco Food Mart - Weirs Beach Eagle Tavern and Grill - Newport East Alton General Store - Alton Fat Belly's Restaurant - Portsmouth Handy Landing - Weirs Beach North End Pub - New London Olde Bay Diner - Alton Bay Paradise Beach Club - Weirs Beach ParkSide Grill - Milford Patrick's Pub and Eatery - Gilford Pier 19 - Tuftonboro Rivier Run Deli - Alton Shibley's at the Pier - Alton Bay Suzies Diner - Hudson The Bay Diner - Alton Bay The Dockside Restaurant - Alton Bay Truants Taverne - North Woodstock Wayne's Market - North Woodstock Woody’s Restaurant at Sunapee Harbor - Sunapee Fishing Related A J Bait Shop - Meredith Bubba Bassin Club - Sandown Cool Water Charters - Center Harbor Granite State Rod & Reel Repair - Nashua Lakes Region Bass Fishing Guide Service - Meredith Lil' Hustler Tackle Co - Pembroke Nothern Bass Supply - Brentwood NH B.A.S.S. Federation Rocky Ledge Bass Tackle - Pittsfield The Bass Harasser - Manchester Builders, Landscaping and Construction Al Hoyt & Sons, Inc. - Plaistow All Quality Constructions - Meredith AllBright Electric co - Alton Bay Amherst Surface Restorations Inc. - Amherst Atlas Foundations - Salem Aqua Lawn - Moultonboro B & M Glass Inc - Exeter BaySide Concrete - Alton Belknap Mountain Construction - Laconia Blane Building Co Of Kingston LLc - Freemont Blane Finnish Co - Kinston Bob Jusko Bld/Remodeling - Hampstead Bob's Painting & Pressure Washing LLC - Laconia Boston Enviromental - Portsmouth Brady Sullivan Properties - Manchester Brian David Excavation - Moultonboro Bruce White Const. - Hampstead Busby Construction - Atkinson Captains Construction - Alton Bay Capuno and Capuno Masonary - Salem Carino Masonry - Manchester Cedarhill Concrete - Fremont CLD Paving - Laconia Clearwater Builders - Tilton Clough Contracting Co. - Fremont Cormier Home Improvements - Epping D & H Construction - Plaistow Dan Snow Plumb/Heating - Sandown Dan's Appliance - Laconia Davco Excavating - Ossipee Don Lamontagne Painting - Gilford Dovetailed Kitchen - Portsmouth Farrell Construction - Salem Faxon Art. Wells - Sandown Fiela Plumb/Heating - Derry Fillmore Industries Inc - Loudon Gilford Home Center - Gilford Granite State Stone and Pvers - Atkinson Hillside Restorations - West Peterborough J & S Electric - Milton Jameson Excavating - Atkinson JL Construction - Sandown Kitchen Encounters - Laconia Lachance Landscapes - Gilford Lakefront Contracting Co.- Alton Bay Lakes Region Design Group - Laconia LJC Custom Homes - Hampstead Mancusi Builders - Hampstead Merrill Excavating - Salem Northvent Mechanical - Alton Bay Plaistow Custom Cabinets - Plaistow Planet Green Landscape, Inc. - Meredith Prime Construction Inc - Meredith R J Lundy Excavating - Alton Regan Electric Co., Inc - Portsmouth Richard Murphy Contruction - Moultonboro Rockingham County Concrete - Fremont Scott Compton Builder - Laconia Taurus Landscaping - Sandown Tiffany Lee Custom Homes - Plaistow Timberlane Plate Glass Co. - Plaistow Tradesmen Builders Corp. - Laconia Two Tall Concrete - Alton VMB Construction - Tilton Wentworth Builders - New Castle Wetmore Electric - Moultonboro Wm. Bartlett & Son - Plaistow Automotive Related Approved Auto - Plaistow Aranco Oil Co., Inc. - Concord Autoserv Concord, Newport, Tilton, Plymouth Autoserv Nissan - Tilton Ball Brother’s Trucking - Londonderry Ben's Auto Body - Portsmouth Bump & Grind Auto Body - Kingston Color Concepts - Belmont Complete RV - Kingston Decelles Auto Clinic Inc. - Nashua Evergreen RV - Rochester Exit 20 Auto + Truck - Tilton Fitzgerald Motorsports Ic. - Laconia Foss Motors - Exeter Gulbicki's Towing - Weirs Beach Harpers Motorcycle,Auto Painting - Meredith Harpers Towing - Meredith Jakes Transmission - Fremont Jim's Auto Parts - Salem KarKraft - Gilford Kwik Stop - Hooksett Lakes Chrysler/Jeep - Laconia McNovick Inc - Bow Meineke - Bedford, Merrimack R & L Auto and Cycle - Salem Scott Wrights Auto Body - Exeter The Tire Loft - Portsmouth Tilton Autobody - Tilton Real Estate Austin Realty - Plaistow Bayview Forest & Development - Alton Bay Cascades Reality Development Trust - Alton Bay Dakota Realty - Center Harbor DJMJ Realty Trust - Laconia Formula Development - Center Harbor Ganong Realty - Laconia Gamache Enterprises - Manchester Leisure Time Rentals - Meredith Living New England Homes LLC - Laconia Ryan Properties - Titlon White Mountain Management - Meredith Other Businesses who oppose House Bill 847 Alpha Omega Management Co. - Gilford Alumis Enterprises - Bridgewater Andrus Carpet - Gilmington API Insurance - Lakeport Ashworth Enterprises - Atkinson Bay State Cable Ties - Gilford Blue NYC - Portsmouth Bresnahan Movers - Plaistow Broadway North Dance Outfitters - Tilton Correct Temp Inc. - Salem Cricket Corner Woodworks - Amherst CSD Sealing Systems - Manchester Delia's Boutique - Portsmouth Envision Salon - Hampstead Eye Contact - Portsmouth Faux Paw Pet Boutique - Meredith FitLife Design - Alton Bay Gary Barnes & Sons, LLC - Hampstead Geo. Merrill & Son - Salem Golas Bros. - Plaistow Howard Enterprises - Derry Identity Footwear - Portsmouth Integrated Equipment Solutions, LLC. - Kingston J & D Screenprinting & Embroidery - Laconia Johnson Logging - Newport K & S Stephens Enterprises - Milford Karen's Gift Shop - Weirs Beach Key Site Services - Alton Bay Lynch & Denoncourt CPA - Laconia Manchester Wholesale Distributors Inc. - Manchester Macro Polo - Portsmouth MB Tractor - Tilton, Plaistow, Rumney Medcomp Claims & Consult. - Plaistow Montero Group - Chichecton NE Fiberglass, LLC - Gilford Northeast Communications Corp (WFTN, WPNH, WSCY) - Franklin Northern Pool and Spa - Tilton Philbricks Sales & Service - Hampton Pixel Force - Laconia Plaistow Trading - Plaistow Rapid Response Marketing - Manchester Red Brick Clothing Co - Hudson RJ Lundy - Alton Rock Coast Printworks - Dover Sandown Materials - Chester Seabrook Equipment - Seabrook Stanley Elevator Co. - Nashua The Art of Hair - Newton The Eyeglass Shop - Portsmouth The Red Carpet Salon - Laconia The Testing & Coring company - Alton Bay Turbotek - Manchester Wireless Zone - Milford And thousands of NH citizens, see testimonials page for comments from many of them. Our state's motto that we have on every license plate means a lot to those opposing House Bill 847

02-09-2008, 12:45 PM	#137
GWC... Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,325 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wow!!! I can hear a pin drop... __________________ [Assume funny, clever sig is here. Laugh and reflect... ]

02-09-2008, 02:44 PM	#139
hazelnut Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,348 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 508 Thanked 462 Times in 162 Posts	Bear Islander Initially yes I wanted to make a statement and then I wanted you to make a statement free from quoting or disputing my statement. We did that. I think we both did a good job of that. I never said that subsequent posts fell into that category. This is a debate about an issue. Here is the problem that you are running into as I see it. The debate revolves around a House Bill regarding a SPEED LIMIT. The people who oppose a speed limit have hard facts and statistics as to why there is no reason or need for a speed limit. In short speed is not the problem. You yourself said so. The people who support a SPEED LIMIT have no facts or statistics to support the theory that a speed limit is necessary. The House Bill is in effect a wolf in sheep's clothing. It masks itself as a safety measure when in fact the supporters see it as a way to rid the lake of what it thinks are undesirables. You yourself stated that Go Fast Boats do not belong on the lake. With that said you will ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS come under scrutiny for supporting a bill that is sneaky and underhanded. It is a form of discrimination. You support a bill that is discriminatory in nature. That is a fact. If you can live with that, fine. Personally when it comes to lawmaking we should not allow emotion to dictate protocol. I take this very serious. When a law is made based solely on the idea that we can get rid of something that a few people "don't like," based on no supportive fact it worries me. If this law passes it only paves the way for more silly laws. By the way, you have no comment on the "list?"

02-09-2008, 03:35 PM	#141
Resident 2B Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Shore, MA Posts: 1,357 Thanks: 994 Thanked 313 Times in 163 Posts	What a list WeirsBeachBoater, Thanks for posting this list. It certainly is much longer than the "huge" list of supporting businesses. For BI, this is another great example of why you should be very careful about what you are asking for. I am sure it is significantly longer than you thought it would be. For me, this list also goes on the refrigerator, so that we will remember where to go when we need to make a purchase. R2B

02-09-2008, 03:43 PM	#142
WeirsBeachBoater Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 709 Blog Entries: 9 Thanks: 39 Thanked 148 Times in 65 Posts	No problem R2B. Glad to help out.

02-09-2008, 05:27 PM	#150
hazelnut Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,348 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 508 Thanked 462 Times in 162 Posts	Bear Islander NONE OF THAT HAPPENED ON LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE!!!! Are you serious. I really had higher hopes for you. Do you have amnesia? I asked you to answer a yes or no question YESTERDAY!!!!! I will quote it for those who do not want to scroll up: Bear Islander and all supporters of the HB in question please answer a simple yes or no to the following question. No adjective, description, comment, argument just a simple y/n or if you prefer yes/no. The biggest problem on the lake today is that boats are speeding. Yes or No Please tell me what your answer was? It's right here on the forum for all to see. Oh I see we are splitting hairs I should have said you yourself agreed that speed was not the BIGGEST problem. Whatever. I want you to give me Lake Winnipesaukee specific statistics... Guess what YOU CAN'T. You are really grabbing at straws here. I should have expected it to go down this road. I had such high hopes.

02-09-2008, 06:39 PM	#155
Alton Bay Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alton Bay Posts: 188 Thanks: 73 Thanked 24 Times in 21 Posts	I read with interest all the points being taken on both sides of the debate. However, the fact is, the House has passed a speed limit bill. I have to wonder how many legislators have ever even been to the Lake? Rather than beat this issue to death, have people been contacting their state senators? They hold the speed limit bill in their hands. Does anyone know where they stand? Last time I checked we all have to have boater certification certificates by this summer. We should all know about the safe passage law, bwi and other issues. Rentals remain an huge issue in my mind. Also, interesting that most Alton businesses do not support a speed limit. Ask them ( and Alton residents) if they support a noise limit and they would say "yes" and... you know what?? We have a law regarding noise. Is it enforced?? I can tell you it's very noisy in Alton (maybe cuz it's narrow?) and it certainly isn't just from GFLB. Let's enforce the laws on the books.

02-09-2008, 08:05 PM	#158
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	Two weeks ago I rode a centrifuge at the National Astronautics and Space Training Center up to 6 gravities. But I did not experience half the spin I get on this forum. It starts when an opponent posts there are "no statistics" or "no accidents" then they are shown the statistics and reminded of the accidents. Next comes the long list of excuses why those stats do not apply. A short period of silence, the it starts again with "no statistics" "no accidents". Two years ago the house voted for HB162 .... what a bunch of idiots! ..... violating our rights! ... never been to the lake!..... A few weeks later the Senate voted down HB162 .... responsible, intelligent leaders! .... informed, thoughtful representation!... they know what our lake needs! Two weeks ago the house voted for HB847 .... what a bunch of idiots! ..... violating our rights! ... never been to the lake!..... If the Senate passes HB847, will that mean they suddenly became stupid and irresponsible??

02-09-2008, 09:43 PM	#160
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,738 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,007 Times in 735 Posts	Not to worry...even if the senate does the unthinkable and passes HB847 sometime soon......Gov John Lynch will be right there with his veto stamp and he'll most definately pound HB847 with a VETO. Go Gov Lynch, go buddy! __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

02-09-2008, 11:51 PM	#161
hazelnut Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,348 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 508 Thanked 462 Times in 162 Posts	[QUOTE=Bear Islander;63119]... I did not experience half the spin I get on this forum..It starts when an opponent posts there are "no statistics" or "no accidents" then they are shown the statistics and reminded of the accidents. Next comes the long list of excuses why those stats do not apply. A short period of silence, the it starts again with "no statistics" "no accidents". Bear Islander: Seriously? Again you baffle the forum. Please site the statistics that directly apply to lake Winnipesaukee. After all this Bill directly applies to Lake Winnipesaukee so you should easily be able to cite and provide the statistics and accidents that occurred on Lake Winnipesaukee that were a direct result of speed. Go for it. I wait with baited breath. If you do not reply to this direct request I will refer to this as a "short period of silence" while you research and find NOTHING! You have officially lost all credibility in my eyes. I know that means nothing to you but it is a shame because you had so much promise for your "side" of the argument. Now.... your ball my friend, provide those "accidents" and "statistics" on LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE that were a direct result of speed. HA HA HA HA HA HA YOU CAN'T!!!!!!

02-10-2008, 12:27 AM	#162
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	The spin starts already, they have to be on Winnipesaukee. Why? Do you think there is some magic that protects people on this lake? And what speed does it have to be in excess of? Does it have to be boat to boat? Day? Night? Can alcohol be involved? How long ago still applies? What if the speed can not be EXACTLY determined beyond any doubt? Give me all the parameters now so I can save time.