Snowmobiler recovered from under the ice

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

Whether or not you like it, the law is the law, and it MAY (note I said "may") impose liability on the property owner under this scenario.

It certainly is foreseeable that a snowmobiler during a snow squall on a lake covered with high drifts might not recognize, due to the high snow, that the high spot he's traversing is in fact a jetty / extension.

Given the above, IF there was not a clear warning that the bubbler was in use, liability COULD adhere.

The statute is interesting, as it would seem to prohibit bubblers (" Heating, Agitating or Other Devices in Public Waters, Safety Hazard. – No person shall put, place, operate or cause to be put, placed or operated in the waters of this state any so-called heating, agitating or other device which inhibits or prevents the natural freezing of water, or forming of ice, and impedes either the ingress or egress to or from ice by means of any public access thereto.")

But then it says: "If the heating, agitating or other device is placed anywhere else, nearby signs shall likewise be placed to warn of possible danger. Said signs shall read DANGER, THIN ICE and shall be of sufficient size to be readable at a distance of not less than 150 feet, and shall be visible from all directions and shall be equipped with reflectors and color-coded in a pattern unique for this purpose only."

Was the required warning in place, visible form all directions, festooned with reflectors etc.?

If not: hello, litigation.

Look, this is America: people sue.

Get used to it.

Spoken like a true ambulance chaser... I suppose you have mailed your business card already?

Why did you feel the need to spin this thread into an accusatory slam against a land owner that probably was not in the wrong, nor has any evidence been posted that would indicate they were? I have not heard of any deaths in NH related to bubblers so why be so hot to comdemn?

Anyone live or travel in the area that can look so we can prove or disprove this one once and for all?

[VitaBene]

I started another thread about safety so we can vent and argue there.

John

[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Spoken like a true ambulance chaser... I suppose you have mailed your business card already?

Why did you feel the need to spin this thread into an accusatory slam against a land owner that probably was not in the wrong, nor has any evidence been posted that would indicate they were? I have not heard of any deaths in NH related to bubblers so why be so hot to comdemn?

Anyone live or travel in the area that can look so we can prove or disprove this one once and for all?

I have no dog in this fight; I live 3000 miles away!

As a lawyer, if I REALLY wanted to "spin this thread into an accusatory slam," I would have done so; believe it or not, it was a provocative thought piece.

As for why I am "so hot to condemn:" I am not.

But I note from another of your posts that you use bubblers; it is now clear as to why YOU are so hot to defend the rights of lakefront property owners who use bubblers.

I only point out what COULD happen.

I would like to know if the requisite warnings were in place when the recently deceased took a header into the lake.

Live Free, Or Die.

[SIKSUKR]

Here we go again.It must be someone else's fault except my own.Who can we blame?Let's start with the operator of the snowmobile who ultimately has the responsibility of himself.My condolences but please....

[fatlazyless]

According to the Union Leader article above, the rock jetty that was struck was the 100' long access road or walking path that extends out, across the water, to the very big, Kona Inn boathouse. As far as I know, that is a unique setup and has been in place for maybe 100 years. Considering, this incident occurred during a snow storm, how good was the visibility?

All it takes is about 30 seconds watching a snowmobile speed across the lake to understand why snowmobiles can easily be dangerous to their riders.

It's nothing like driving on a paved road with painted, lane lines....it's an irregular snow-ice-open water, lake surface with no speed limits. Some snowmos can go 100mph, so who or what is at fault here?
.................

One side benefit of the small open water areas created by water circulators is they give animals like deer and merganser ducks a watering hole, a spot where they can drink the water.

It's kind of interesting....the one overly large ice-free zone I have in mind.....one hour, it attracts a lone, black & white, merganzer or maybe a bufflehead, that bombs in out of the sky for a rapid descent and a perfect three-point landing......another hour, it attracts a single snowmobiler who decides to seperate away from his pack and gun it across the 100' of open water, leaving behind a wake that looks like the track of a snow-mo...

[kjbathe]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Here we go again.It must be someone else's fault except my own.Who can we blame?Let's start with the operator of the snowmobile who ultimately has the responsibility of himself.My condolences but please....

I concur. And I don't buy the "this is America: people sue. Get used to it." approach. What we need to get used to is telling people to have more common sense, more personal responsibility, and less inclination to always to be looking to where the finger can be pointed next.

I had the same reaction to the roof collapse at Irwin's. We get a ton of snow and folks start to wonder who they should sue. It's winter. It happens. And is why smart people buy good insurance.

Cold water, ice, and heavy objects don't always play well together. It's that simple. And my prayers are with all the parties impacted by this loss.

[Newbiesaukee]

I concur also concerning the abdication of personal responsibility and the someone else to blame philosophy. Nonetheless, sometimes one is injured and it is someone else's fault. Anyone living in NH knows about the possibility of roof collapse, particularly a commercial enterprise, and IF Irwin's was negligent about not having the roof shoveled, then, IMO, they do bear some responsibility. Certainly, anyone leaving their boat and paying for storage should have some expectation that reasonable precautions be taken to protect the building. And, I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.

[Mr. V]

The problem with bubblers is that they are used to create open water not on private property, but on public property.

Just because you own lakefront doesn't mean you own the lake.

So then, what duty does a lakefront property owner owe to the public when, through the use of artificial means (bubblers), he modifies the condition of the lake, preventing ice from forming when and where it would otherwise form?

It would seem that the NH legislature imposes a pretty high duty to warn on those using bubblers, but is it enough?

I doubt it.

I'd suggest that people using bubblers also be required to have a piercing, flashing light visible to those on the lake, similar perhaps to the type of light bicyclists are using at night to warn oncoming motorists of their presence.

Bubblers are an unnatural modification of nature which this case illustrates can lead to death.

Serious stuff.

Sure, I believe in accepting responsibility, but look at it this way: would the fellow who died likely have done just fine and avoided mishap altogether had the bubbler not been operating?

Would a reasonably attentive snowmobiler have been able to see discern that a bubbler was in use?

Thorny issues.

[rrr]

Mr. V - and what about the neighbors who have that 'piercing, flashing light' shining in their windows all night, every night for several months?

[Dave M]

My sympathies to this man's family and friends,it is a tragedy.

It seems owners who have bubblers are getting the blame here. There are
plenty of lifted docks with legs hanging down with square or round bases
attached. I've seen some docks where some of the legs are near the ice surface. Is an owner responible if a snowmobiler hugging the shore and hits one of these causing injury or decapitation. It seems to me if your hugging the shore your asking for trouble. Just like the boat rule, stay 150' away from shore until you want to get off.

Dave M

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

would the fellow who died likely have done just fine and avoided mishap altogether had the bubbler not been operating?.

Would a driver of a car been just fine if those snow banks were not blocking his vision when he pulled out into traffic?If that puddle had not been there when he hydroplaned off the road?

Originally Posted by Mr. V

Would a reasonably attentive snowmobiler have been able to see discern that a bubbler was in use?
.

Would a reasonably attentive snowmobiler known that hazards like dock bubblers and thin ice near shore have existed for many decades?

[Mink Islander]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

The problem with bubblers is that they are used to create open water not on private property, but on public property.

Just because you own lakefront doesn't mean you own the lake.

So then, what duty does a lakefront property owner owe to the public when, through the use of artificial means (bubblers), he modifies the condition of the lake, preventing ice from forming when and where it would otherwise form?

It would seem that the NH legislature imposes a pretty high duty to warn on those using bubblers, but is it enough?

I doubt it.

I'd suggest that people using bubblers also be required to have a piercing, flashing light visible to those on the lake, similar perhaps to the type of light bicyclists are using at night to warn oncoming motorists of their presence.

Bubblers are an unnatural modification of nature which this case illustrates can lead to death.

Serious stuff.

Sure, I believe in accepting responsibility, but look at it this way: would the fellow who died likely have done just fine and avoided mishap altogether had the bubbler not been operating?

Would a reasonably attentive snowmobiler have been able to see discern that a bubbler was in use?

Thorny issues.

Thorny issues? Hardly. Ever been on the lake in winter? Sure doesn't sound like it. Would explain the ignorance in your comments.

In reality, me thinks Mr. V is just a Troll looking the stir the pot.

Waterfront owners have special rights (Littoral Rights, correct SKIP?) to modify the shoreline with docks, rafts, moorings even though the lake is public property. Guess Mr. V didn't learn about that in law school. All are subject to rules/regulation and much of it requires formal permitting/approval at installation/modification to ensure compliance. Again, I'm sure the vast majority of participants on this forum know this -- we discuss the topic frequently enough. The right to use ice-eaters/bubblers to protect approved/permitted docks is consistent with these other rights.

Using Mr. V-Troll's ridiculous argument, all rafts, mooring buoys and docks should be lit up like airport runways so boats don't run into them at night. Someone might get hurt, you know, if it didn't occur to them that there might be dangerous man-made obstructions near the shore of a heavily populated lake.... But you see, I don't think V-troll is serious, he's just trying to annoy us with his bantor so he can have some fun with a local tragedy -- nice, huh?

And by the way, the idle speculation regarding what happened to the poor man in Moultonboro and what legal actions his family might take is shameful. You weren't there. No one knows exactly what happened. And I don't get the sense you know the family. It's clear you're ignorant about lake front property owners' rights as well. Please don't just make things up so you can troll here and get your jollies off the untimely death of a member of the lakes region community....

[Skip]

Mink Islander hits the nail on the head with his previous post.

Let me add that Mr. V, if indeed an attorney, should take a moment and go back a read the referenced news source.

In particular, authorities are not blaming open water caused by a bubbler as the source of the accident. Rather the initial investigation revealed that the operator ended up in the water after colliding with and going over the jetty. The result of that collision coupled with the sled rolling over resulted in the victim being thrown into the adjacent water.

What Mr. V surmises could be equated to blaming a landowner for growing a tree in his front yard that is subsequently struck by a car that lost control out on an adjacent public way.

The fact is there are a number of variables still unknown here before any blame could even be considered. These would include the results of an autopsy that might indicate an unknown health problem or outside influences could have negatively affected the operator, a forensic examination of the snowmobile to see if mechanical conditions could have been a factor along with a technical examination of the accident scene to determine on site accident variables.

But to speculate that a lawsuit could be brought against the property owner without these variables being considered and determined is what is known in the trade as "ambulance chasing". And the last time I checked, "ambulance chasing" is a practice prohibited by the American Bar Association.

[Mr. V]

Ambulance chaser?

Troll?

Hardly; just trying to think it through and promote some discussion on what seems to me to be an important issue.

Were bubblers in fact the benign devices some of you think they are, the legislature would not have imposed the duty to warn the public of their presence and operation.

The law seemss clear: if the legislature imposes a duty to warn, and that duty is violated and damage results, liability may typically adhere.

FWIW, the piercing light I suggested for future use would be facing the lake only, and not visible to the bubbler owner or others on his side of the lake: but folks on the ice would certainly be able to see it, which is the whole idea.

This is a tragedy, and I agree that all of the salient facts are not known, including the snowmobiler's health and state of sobriety at the time of the incident.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

Ambulance chaser?

Troll?

Hardly; just trying to think it through and promote some discussion on what seems to me to be an important issue.

Were bubblers in fact the benign devices some of you think they are, the legislature would not have imposed the duty to warn the public of their presence and operation.

The law seemss clear: if the legislature imposes a duty to warn, and that duty is violated and damage results, liability may typically adhere.

FWIW, the piercing light I suggested for future use would be facing the lake only, and not visible to the bubbler owner or others on his side of the lake: but folks on the ice would certainly be able to see it, which is the whole idea.

This is a tragedy, and I agree that all of the salient facts are not known, including the snowmobiler's health and state of sobriety at the time of the incident.

Now you throw his sobriety into the mix? Can't you find a forum closer to home to troll in? Let the facts come out instead of blaming everything possible except human error or responsibility.

I have to ask the questions that nobody has so far... Are you from here? Do you own property here? Ever been here? Just here to troll, chase ambulances and in general be an irritation?

I am sure this piercing light will look great to those across the lake, especially in the tighter areas where it may not be that far across. Common sense should prevail when riding and as mentioned previously, people when on the ice should typically stay far enough away that a bubbler will not be dangerous. Have you found any bubbler related deaths online in NH? Snowmobiles can be quite loud and sound carries well on ice so out of courtesy riders should be far enough out as not to be irritating to residents.

As Skip stated, the bubbler most likely was not even the cause anyhow.

[hazelnut]

First off Codeman I'm glad you got to that one before me... It infuriated me that Mr. V even insinuated this mans state of sobriety without so much as a hint of that being an issue.

Second off my family had a home in that area on the lake for several years. We were there from 1988-2002 before my parents sold it. During that time I was in my late teens as I am 36 now. With no offense to the family here but even as a teen I knew not to use the sled in that area. Just like I avoided the area close to the Windward Harbor Boathouse, the Black Cat Bridge and the narrows by Salmon Meadow Cove, the Kona Boathouse was another off limits area. I recall that area being marked with the traditional BIG RED DIAMOND "THIN ICE" sign.

I was a risk taking teen and I knew where the off limits areas were. All I can assume is that this gentleman knew the same information but became disoriented in the dark and snow.

[rander7823]

I have a rather crazy suggestion. How about all liability suits are either done pro bono or without lawyers. Two people before a judge stating their case and he determines the outcome or even before a jury of their peers.

Maybe if the individuals had to think through the situation themselves they might have second thoughts.

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

FWIW, the piercing light I suggested for future use would be facing the lake only, and not visible to the bubbler owner or others on his side of the lake: but folks on the ice would certainly be able to see it, which is the whole idea.

Great idea, we'll start one across the lake from your window, not mine. And FWIW, there is already a piercing light that can be used today to prevent accidents like you are referring too. Its called a headlight, and most sleds have one. If yours doesn't, must be someone else's fault?

Funny, you consider the dock bubbler's unnatural modifications to the lake, but a snowmobile out on the ice isn't? Just yesterday I saw a duck riding one...

Anywho, and this in no way, shape or form relates to this particular tragedy as I have no idea what happened, but I can tell you as a public service announcement that in any given winter at least one person dies on Winni on a sled because:
They are unfamiliar with the area.
They are impaired, and as a bonus usually out after dark.
They are going to fast for the conditions.
~and/or ~
They are skimming open water.

If the riders are more observant and cautious theres no need to worry about the dock bubbler's.

My condolences to the family's effected by this tragedy, hopefully some good can come of it.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

Great idea, we'll start one across the lake from your window, not mine.

Originally Posted by mr v

I have no dog in this fight; I live 3000 miles away!

You forgot, he has no dog in this fight and lives 3000 miles away...It had better be a nasty light...

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by codeman671

You forgot, he has no dog in this fight and lives 3000 miles away...It had better be a nasty light...

Don't ya love it when people who live 3000 miles away tell us how to run things round here?!?!?!

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Don't ya love it when people who live 3000 miles away tell us how to run things round here?!?!?!

Hazelnut,

I completely agree with you!

The last thing we need is an ambulance-chasing troll from Portland, Or. telling us how to live here in NH. I see this as an attempt by a person with, obviously, no idea about sledding conditions on the lake during a snow storm, attempting to sell his or her opinions on our forum for potential personal gains.

OK, I realize there is freedom of speech, but these postings are not at all what we are all about.

My sincere condolences to the family for their unfortunate loss. Hopefully, we can all learn from this tragedy.

I think it is time to say good bye Mr. V!

R2B

[Mr. V]

You snowbound flamers slay me.

I didn't raise the issue of sobriety, Skip did.

Go read his post.

As for the fellow who would muzzle me:

I visit this board because my family owns a home on Winnipesaukee lakefront.

Do we use a bubbler?

I'll have to look into it next time I take a jaunt to the lake for summer vacation.

Yeah, I have the cred, the "right" to post here.

But have no fear: I will NEVER move to NH.

Why would I?

[secondcurve]

Resident to be:

I totally agree with all that has been said about Mr. V and his motives. However, I think your comment about Portland Oregon is a little off base. Especially since you are from away. A tad hypocritical don't you think?

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Resident to be:

I totally agree with all that has been said about Mr. V and his motives. However, I think your comment about Portland Oregon is a little off base. Especially since you are from away. A tad hypocritical don't you think?

FYI,

Not hypocritical at all. We moved here more than two years ago and established residency at that time. No easy way to change the name on this forum, at least that I am aware of.

Although I believe in and fully support freedom of speech, I do not think it is right for anyone to be suggesting blame when they do not know the facts and have no experience in our area during the winter.

R2B

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Resident to be:

I totally agree with all that has been said about Mr. V and his motives. However, I think your comment about Portland Oregon is a little off base. Especially since you are from away. A tad hypocritical don't you think?

Secondcurve I don't think R2B was slamming Portland Oregon specifically I think he was just stating what we all felt that a person from 3000 miles away was stirring up the pot and telling us what we should be doing.

[woodswalk]

you're here, he's there, you live this many miles away, she lives this many miles closer................
Question- any nh natives on this lake any more?
just curious

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by woodswalk

you're here, he's there, you live this many miles away, she lives this many miles closer................
Question- any nh natives on this lake any more?
just curious

Count me as 1.

[winnidiver]

Originally Posted by woodswalk

you're here, he's there, you live this many miles away, she lives this many miles closer................
Question- any nh natives on this lake any more?
just curious

Not me only lived here for forty seven years.My kids are though.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

Were bubblers in fact the benign devices some of you think they are, the legislature would not have imposed the duty to warn the public of their presence and operation.

The law seemss clear: if the legislature imposes a duty to warn, and that duty is violated and damage results, liability may typically adhere.

FWIW, the piercing light I suggested for future use would be facing the lake only, and not visible to the bubbler owner or others on his side of the lake: but folks on the ice would certainly be able to see it, which is the whole idea.

This is a tragedy, and I agree that all of the salient facts are not known, including the snowmobiler's health and state of sobriety at the time of the incident.

From the Union Leader article it isn't clear to me that the bubbler was the problem, afterall it was the jetty he apparently hit. Whether there would have been open water w/o bubbler on that night and whether it would have made a difference if it had been iced over are open questions. For all I know the victim may have been incapcitated and frozen to death had the bubbler not been there.

NH doesn't require lights or warning signs on the docks and jetties projecting into the lake, not in the summer nor in the winter. As has been pointed out there are numerous natural and unpredictable hazards that occur on the frozen lake (pressure ridges come to mind). Common sense dictates that you don't overdrive your lights for that reason alone. In this case, sledding during a snowstorm, it's debatable whether any reasonable warning system would have made a difference.