Snowmobiler recovered from under the ice

[Skip]

Mink Islander hits the nail on the head with his previous post.

Let me add that Mr. V, if indeed an attorney, should take a moment and go back a read the referenced news source.

In particular, authorities are not blaming open water caused by a bubbler as the source of the accident. Rather the initial investigation revealed that the operator ended up in the water after colliding with and going over the jetty. The result of that collision coupled with the sled rolling over resulted in the victim being thrown into the adjacent water.

What Mr. V surmises could be equated to blaming a landowner for growing a tree in his front yard that is subsequently struck by a car that lost control out on an adjacent public way.

The fact is there are a number of variables still unknown here before any blame could even be considered. These would include the results of an autopsy that might indicate an unknown health problem or outside influences could have negatively affected the operator, a forensic examination of the snowmobile to see if mechanical conditions could have been a factor along with a technical examination of the accident scene to determine on site accident variables.

But to speculate that a lawsuit could be brought against the property owner without these variables being considered and determined is what is known in the trade as "ambulance chasing". And the last time I checked, "ambulance chasing" is a practice prohibited by the American Bar Association.

[Mr. V]

Ambulance chaser?

Troll?

Hardly; just trying to think it through and promote some discussion on what seems to me to be an important issue.

Were bubblers in fact the benign devices some of you think they are, the legislature would not have imposed the duty to warn the public of their presence and operation.

The law seemss clear: if the legislature imposes a duty to warn, and that duty is violated and damage results, liability may typically adhere.

FWIW, the piercing light I suggested for future use would be facing the lake only, and not visible to the bubbler owner or others on his side of the lake: but folks on the ice would certainly be able to see it, which is the whole idea.

This is a tragedy, and I agree that all of the salient facts are not known, including the snowmobiler's health and state of sobriety at the time of the incident.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

Ambulance chaser?

Troll?

Hardly; just trying to think it through and promote some discussion on what seems to me to be an important issue.

Were bubblers in fact the benign devices some of you think they are, the legislature would not have imposed the duty to warn the public of their presence and operation.

The law seemss clear: if the legislature imposes a duty to warn, and that duty is violated and damage results, liability may typically adhere.

FWIW, the piercing light I suggested for future use would be facing the lake only, and not visible to the bubbler owner or others on his side of the lake: but folks on the ice would certainly be able to see it, which is the whole idea.

This is a tragedy, and I agree that all of the salient facts are not known, including the snowmobiler's health and state of sobriety at the time of the incident.

Now you throw his sobriety into the mix? Can't you find a forum closer to home to troll in? Let the facts come out instead of blaming everything possible except human error or responsibility.

I have to ask the questions that nobody has so far... Are you from here? Do you own property here? Ever been here? Just here to troll, chase ambulances and in general be an irritation?

I am sure this piercing light will look great to those across the lake, especially in the tighter areas where it may not be that far across. Common sense should prevail when riding and as mentioned previously, people when on the ice should typically stay far enough away that a bubbler will not be dangerous. Have you found any bubbler related deaths online in NH? Snowmobiles can be quite loud and sound carries well on ice so out of courtesy riders should be far enough out as not to be irritating to residents.

As Skip stated, the bubbler most likely was not even the cause anyhow.

[hazelnut]

First off Codeman I'm glad you got to that one before me... It infuriated me that Mr. V even insinuated this mans state of sobriety without so much as a hint of that being an issue.

Second off my family had a home in that area on the lake for several years. We were there from 1988-2002 before my parents sold it. During that time I was in my late teens as I am 36 now. With no offense to the family here but even as a teen I knew not to use the sled in that area. Just like I avoided the area close to the Windward Harbor Boathouse, the Black Cat Bridge and the narrows by Salmon Meadow Cove, the Kona Boathouse was another off limits area. I recall that area being marked with the traditional BIG RED DIAMOND "THIN ICE" sign.

I was a risk taking teen and I knew where the off limits areas were. All I can assume is that this gentleman knew the same information but became disoriented in the dark and snow.

[rander7823]

I have a rather crazy suggestion. How about all liability suits are either done pro bono or without lawyers. Two people before a judge stating their case and he determines the outcome or even before a jury of their peers.

Maybe if the individuals had to think through the situation themselves they might have second thoughts.

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

FWIW, the piercing light I suggested for future use would be facing the lake only, and not visible to the bubbler owner or others on his side of the lake: but folks on the ice would certainly be able to see it, which is the whole idea.

Great idea, we'll start one across the lake from your window, not mine. And FWIW, there is already a piercing light that can be used today to prevent accidents like you are referring too. Its called a headlight, and most sleds have one. If yours doesn't, must be someone else's fault?

Funny, you consider the dock bubbler's unnatural modifications to the lake, but a snowmobile out on the ice isn't? Just yesterday I saw a duck riding one...

Anywho, and this in no way, shape or form relates to this particular tragedy as I have no idea what happened, but I can tell you as a public service announcement that in any given winter at least one person dies on Winni on a sled because:
They are unfamiliar with the area.
They are impaired, and as a bonus usually out after dark.
They are going to fast for the conditions.
~and/or ~
They are skimming open water.

If the riders are more observant and cautious theres no need to worry about the dock bubbler's.

My condolences to the family's effected by this tragedy, hopefully some good can come of it.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

Great idea, we'll start one across the lake from your window, not mine.

Originally Posted by mr v

I have no dog in this fight; I live 3000 miles away!

You forgot, he has no dog in this fight and lives 3000 miles away...It had better be a nasty light...

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by codeman671

You forgot, he has no dog in this fight and lives 3000 miles away...It had better be a nasty light...

Don't ya love it when people who live 3000 miles away tell us how to run things round here?!?!?!

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Don't ya love it when people who live 3000 miles away tell us how to run things round here?!?!?!

Hazelnut,

I completely agree with you!

The last thing we need is an ambulance-chasing troll from Portland, Or. telling us how to live here in NH. I see this as an attempt by a person with, obviously, no idea about sledding conditions on the lake during a snow storm, attempting to sell his or her opinions on our forum for potential personal gains.

OK, I realize there is freedom of speech, but these postings are not at all what we are all about.

My sincere condolences to the family for their unfortunate loss. Hopefully, we can all learn from this tragedy.

I think it is time to say good bye Mr. V!

R2B

[Mr. V]

You snowbound flamers slay me.

I didn't raise the issue of sobriety, Skip did.

Go read his post.

As for the fellow who would muzzle me:

I visit this board because my family owns a home on Winnipesaukee lakefront.

Do we use a bubbler?

I'll have to look into it next time I take a jaunt to the lake for summer vacation.

Yeah, I have the cred, the "right" to post here.

But have no fear: I will NEVER move to NH.

Why would I?

[secondcurve]

Resident to be:

I totally agree with all that has been said about Mr. V and his motives. However, I think your comment about Portland Oregon is a little off base. Especially since you are from away. A tad hypocritical don't you think?

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Resident to be:

I totally agree with all that has been said about Mr. V and his motives. However, I think your comment about Portland Oregon is a little off base. Especially since you are from away. A tad hypocritical don't you think?

FYI,

Not hypocritical at all. We moved here more than two years ago and established residency at that time. No easy way to change the name on this forum, at least that I am aware of.

Although I believe in and fully support freedom of speech, I do not think it is right for anyone to be suggesting blame when they do not know the facts and have no experience in our area during the winter.

R2B

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Resident to be:

I totally agree with all that has been said about Mr. V and his motives. However, I think your comment about Portland Oregon is a little off base. Especially since you are from away. A tad hypocritical don't you think?

Secondcurve I don't think R2B was slamming Portland Oregon specifically I think he was just stating what we all felt that a person from 3000 miles away was stirring up the pot and telling us what we should be doing.

[woodswalk]

you're here, he's there, you live this many miles away, she lives this many miles closer................
Question- any nh natives on this lake any more?
just curious

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by woodswalk

you're here, he's there, you live this many miles away, she lives this many miles closer................
Question- any nh natives on this lake any more?
just curious

Count me as 1.

[gravy boat]

Ok -- this thread has taken on an ugly life of its own.

Insulting somebody because he/she presents a thought/argument/opinion is not playing nice in the sandbox, children.

I may just have to sue all of you for sucking up 20 minutes of my life that I will never get back.


Gravy

[winnidiver]

Originally Posted by woodswalk

you're here, he's there, you live this many miles away, she lives this many miles closer................
Question- any nh natives on this lake any more?
just curious

Not me only lived here for forty seven years.My kids are though.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

Were bubblers in fact the benign devices some of you think they are, the legislature would not have imposed the duty to warn the public of their presence and operation.

The law seemss clear: if the legislature imposes a duty to warn, and that duty is violated and damage results, liability may typically adhere.

FWIW, the piercing light I suggested for future use would be facing the lake only, and not visible to the bubbler owner or others on his side of the lake: but folks on the ice would certainly be able to see it, which is the whole idea.

This is a tragedy, and I agree that all of the salient facts are not known, including the snowmobiler's health and state of sobriety at the time of the incident.

From the Union Leader article it isn't clear to me that the bubbler was the problem, afterall it was the jetty he apparently hit. Whether there would have been open water w/o bubbler on that night and whether it would have made a difference if it had been iced over are open questions. For all I know the victim may have been incapcitated and frozen to death had the bubbler not been there.

NH doesn't require lights or warning signs on the docks and jetties projecting into the lake, not in the summer nor in the winter. As has been pointed out there are numerous natural and unpredictable hazards that occur on the frozen lake (pressure ridges come to mind). Common sense dictates that you don't overdrive your lights for that reason alone. In this case, sledding during a snowstorm, it's debatable whether any reasonable warning system would have made a difference.