Charge Hikers F&G rescue Fee

hockeypuck · 03-23-2008, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

A permit to walk on public property, great idea. But why stop there, thousands of people run on public ways, a lot of them have accidents or heart attacks, then they expect somebody to rush in and give them a free ride to the hospital. A running permit could raise a fortune.

How about we simply enforce the laws we have now (where have I heard that before?) and charge idiots for their own rescue.

Bear Island, I truly hope that your friend is rescued and fully recovers. The subject of this thread was about charging for the rescue of unfortunate victims. My position was that there is a social contract to rescue anyone in distress that most or all states adhere to. Your quote above implies that we should "charge idiots for their own rescue." Sounds a little harsh to me. Do you still feel the same way now that it is a friend in need?

Bear Islander · 03-23-2008, 09:22 AM

Hannah has been picked up and by the people at Alert, a Canadian base.

My comments about charging people for rescue was that idiots that get themselves in hot water through there own stupidity, should bear the costs. Hannah has a well thought out plan and is the most accomplished polar traveler alive. She has the record for the fastest time, man or woman, across Antarctica to the South Pole. Plus you can't travel to Antarctica or sledge to the North Pole without $300,000.00 worth of extraction insurance.

Emergency pick up is part of her contarct with Ken Borek Air, the same planes and pilots that flew us in Antarctica.

I am planning to sail around Cape Horn and then down to Antarctica on Hannah's sailboat next winter.

Weirs guy · 03-24-2008, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

My comments about charging people for rescue was that idiots that get themselves in hot water through there own stupidity, should bear the costs. Hannah has a well thought out plan and is the most accomplished polar traveler alive. She has the record for the fastest time, man or woman, across Antarctica to the South Pole. Plus you can't travel to Antarctica or sledge to the North Pole without $300,000.00 worth of extraction insurance.

OK, thank goodness she's safe and sound first off, and the insurance certainly makes "who pays" a moot point.

But to BI's point, what if the insurance wasn't in place? Personally I don't believe that "we" as a society should pay for such ordeals. Now I understand how cool it is that someone wants to brave something that no one else does, but my paying to save them from the dangers of such actions is akin to me asking everyone here to sponsor my quest to drink more beer this year then last year. Kinda cool for me, but do the rest of you really care? Do the rest of you feel the need to pay for that? What if I decide to swim from my beach to the pier after drinking my beer, who's responsible for paying to save me then?

jrc · 03-24-2008, 03:45 PM

I'm also glad that everyone is out alive.

Obviously, the well-heeled and well skilled can be as adventurous as their money will allow. But the question is what about John Q. Hiker who goes a little beyond his skill level and causes society to pay a lot of money to bail him out? Who decides how far is too far and how much is too much?

chipj29 · 03-25-2008, 07:51 AM

Glad to hear your friend made it out OK BI.
However, you talk about people getting themselves into hot water through their own stupidity. Now define stupidity. The reason I say that, is that some people may consider what Hannah did, to be stupid. Adventurous..absolutely. But is it the smartest thing one could do?

My point is this...what may seem stupid to me may not seem stupid to you.

Bear Islander · 03-25-2008, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chipj29

Glad to hear your friend made it out OK BI.
However, you talk about people getting themselves into hot water through their own stupidity. Now define stupidity. The reason I say that, is that some people may consider what Hannah did, to be stupid. Adventurous..absolutely. But is it the smartest thing one could do?

My point is this...what may seem stupid to me may not seem stupid to you.

I see your point, and there can be a rare borderline case. In most situations the answer is pretty black and white.

1. Did the members of the party have the appropriate clothing and equipment for the conditions they might experience.

2. Did at least one member of the party have training and experience in those conditions.

3. Were plans made in advance for dealing with injury, bad weather etc.

4. Did they bring communications?

When a group starts up Mount Washington without map, coats, cell phone or compass and they fail to turn around when the weather turns bad, then they are the idiots we speak of.

The other end of that spectrum is Hannah.

Consider also that Hannah made one mistake, the fall. Usually the idiots make a long string of them before rescue operations begin.

chipj29 · 03-25-2008, 03:10 PM

I can def. agree with that. However in NH this season, there were at least 2 instances where the people were prepared, yet found themselves in trouble and needing help. Can't remember where I read it (Union Leader maybe), but one of those cases was cited as the reason there was a need to charge. I wish I had saved the link to that...

Weirs guy · 03-26-2008, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chipj29

..in NH this season, there were at least 2 instances where the people were prepared, yet found themselves in trouble and needing help. Can't remember where I read it (Union Leader maybe), but one of those cases was cited as the reason there was a need to charge...

But where does it stop then? I'm a pretty good driver, but I still had an accident this winter in a snow storm, should I pay for that? I think BI has some good points, maybe a committee of individuals like him could establish some guidelines? I think there needs to be some repercussions for Capt. Bonehead Hiker.

chipj29 · 03-27-2008, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

But where does it stop then? I'm a pretty good driver, but I still had an accident this winter in a snow storm, should I pay for that? I think BI has some good points, maybe a committee of individuals like him could establish some guidelines? I think there needs to be some repercussions for Capt. Bonehead Hiker.

I completely agree. There should be some sort of guidelines. But, the line is kind of gray. You have to define "bonehead", and your definition may not be the same as mine.

hockeypuck · 03-25-2008, 07:51 AM

jrc, who decides and who pays, is a real catch 22. When Weirs Guy has a few cold refreshing adult beverages and attempts to swim to the pier and disappears does the rescue team say, oh no that's more than 50 feet from shore and our free rescue service does not cover it so the cost will be $xxxx for us to continue or do they just bring in the helicopters, boats, side scan radar, divers etc and send a bill for $150,000 or do they just take reasonable action and chalk the cost up to all taxpayers? I don't know the answer.

jrc · 03-25-2008, 09:01 AM

I don't know either. But obviously the rescue should come first and the figuring out who pays should come later.

Some cases will be obvious one way or the other and some will be fuzzy. The definition of adventurous, dare-devil and reckless have a lot of overlap.

03-23-2008, 09:22 AM	#2
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	Hannah has been picked up and by the people at Alert, a Canadian base. My comments about charging people for rescue was that idiots that get themselves in hot water through there own stupidity, should bear the costs. Hannah has a well thought out plan and is the most accomplished polar traveler alive. She has the record for the fastest time, man or woman, across Antarctica to the South Pole. Plus you can't travel to Antarctica or sledge to the North Pole without $300,000.00 worth of extraction insurance. Emergency pick up is part of her contarct with Ken Borek Air, the same planes and pilots that flew us in Antarctica. I am planning to sail around Cape Horn and then down to Antarctica on Hannah's sailboat next winter.

03-24-2008, 03:45 PM	#4
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	I'm also glad that everyone is out alive. Obviously, the well-heeled and well skilled can be as adventurous as their money will allow. But the question is what about John Q. Hiker who goes a little beyond his skill level and causes society to pay a lot of money to bail him out? Who decides how far is too far and how much is too much?

03-25-2008, 07:51 AM	#5
chipj29 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bow Posts: 1,874 Thanks: 521 Thanked 308 Times in 162 Posts	Glad to hear your friend made it out OK BI. However, you talk about people getting themselves into hot water through their own stupidity. Now define stupidity. The reason I say that, is that some people may consider what Hannah did, to be stupid. Adventurous..absolutely. But is it the smartest thing one could do? My point is this...what may seem stupid to me may not seem stupid to you.

03-25-2008, 03:10 PM	#7
chipj29 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bow Posts: 1,874 Thanks: 521 Thanked 308 Times in 162 Posts	I can def. agree with that. However in NH this season, there were at least 2 instances where the people were prepared, yet found themselves in trouble and needing help. Can't remember where I read it (Union Leader maybe), but one of those cases was cited as the reason there was a need to charge. I wish I had saved the link to that...

03-25-2008, 07:51 AM	#10
hockeypuck Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Southern CT Posts: 169 Thanks: 19 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	jrc, who decides and who pays, is a real catch 22. When Weirs Guy has a few cold refreshing adult beverages and attempts to swim to the pier and disappears does the rescue team say, oh no that's more than 50 feet from shore and our free rescue service does not cover it so the cost will be $xxxx for us to continue or do they just bring in the helicopters, boats, side scan radar, divers etc and send a bill for $150,000 or do they just take reasonable action and chalk the cost up to all taxpayers? I don't know the answer.

03-25-2008, 09:01 AM	#11
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	I don't know either. But obviously the rescue should come first and the figuring out who pays should come later. Some cases will be obvious one way or the other and some will be fuzzy. The definition of adventurous, dare-devil and reckless have a lot of overlap.