Boater's Education Certificates

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

And what some people don't want you to know is that if you get an online internet certificate in another state, it is good in New Hampshire.

BI,

If safety is the reason we have, and in my opinion need, the requirement for well-earned safe boating certificates, and if it is generally agreed that proctored exams are by far better than on-line testing, then why are you, someone that has been very vocally supporting significant limits on boating on the big lake, telling folks that they can get around the stronger rules by testing on-line in another state?

This makes no sense at all!

I really have to ask who you really are and what the heck are you thinking?

Sorry, but I really do not understand your behavior regarding this issue.

R2B

[Airwaves]

Resident 2 B wrote:
BI,

If safety is the reason we have, and in my opinion need, the requirement for well-earned safe boating certificates, and if it is generally agreed that proctored exams are by far better than on-line testing, then why are you, someone that has been very vocally supporting significant limits on boating on the big lake, telling folks that they can get around the stronger rules by testing on-line in another state?

The fact of the matter is BI has stated that the speed limit issue is NOT a safety issue!

From post #317 in the Lt Dunleavy thread BI wrote:

In fact safety is not my primary reason for wanting speed limits.

So I guess it boils down to BI doesn’t like a certain type of boat and wants it off his lake, but doesn’t mind if there are folks in BI "approved" boats running around within 150’ of everyone and not knowing why everyone is yelling at them!

Everyone should take a proctored exam and if your state doesn’t offer such an exam recognized in New Hampshire, I believe Massachusetts falls into that category, then take this ONLINE COURSE and then schedule a proctored exam with the Marine Patrol or take a US Coast Guard Auxiliary or US Power Squadron course and read up on New Hampshire’s unique rules.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

BI,

If safety is the reason we have, and in my opinion need, the requirement for well-earned safe boating certificates, and if it is generally agreed that proctored exams are by far better than on-line testing, then why are you, someone that has been very vocally supporting significant limits on boating on the big lake, telling folks that they can get around the stronger rules by testing on-line in another state?

This makes no sense at all!

I really have to ask who you really are and what the heck are you thinking?

Sorry, but I really do not understand your behavior regarding this issue.

R2B

In my opinion a lie of omission is still a lie.

I do not believe allowing internet certificates is a good idea, and I am sure that many will abuse the situation. However the question was how can you obtain a certificate. An out of state certificate is a legal option, to pretend that option does not exist, because we do not like it, is a lie. I value safety a great deal, but truth is an even more valuable commodity.

I will also point out that because a non-proctored exam "can" be cheated on does not mean it "will" be cheated on. I personally dislike classroom study, I cut a lot of classes in college. Give me a book and let me learn on my own.

One person may study the regulations on-line very carefully and ace the test. Another may daydream through the classroom course and just barely pass the test. Which is better prepared for the water?

I have emailed state lawmakers with my belief that the education requirement should be more strict. That is an appropriate action. Providing false information is not.

[Gilligan]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

In my opinion a lie of omission is still a lie.
However the question was how can you obtain a certificate. An out of state certificate is a legal option, to pretend that option does not exist, because we do not like it, is a lie. I value safety a great deal, but truth is an even more valuable commodity.

A noble position Bear Islander.

This is not like the speed limit thread where opinions and statistics are debated. Here we are just talking about facts. I don't like the safety certificate reciprocity we have now however I have no idea how to remedy the problem. As BI said, it is harder to change it than we might think it is.

Give him a break. Bear Islander can quote the law on the safety certificate even though he is outspoken and misguided about the need for more speed limits .


Safe boating for all.

[Skip]

Actually it would be fairly easy to ammend the statute and enhance the Safety Certificate.

Simply follow the same protocol we currently do with the motor vehicle code and require all New Hampshire residents to obtain a New Hampshire certificate.

We accept the fact, under the driver license reciprocity statute, that we will accept other States driver's licenses even though we have no control over other States driver education requirements. Hence the same with boater certificates. Its the cost of doing business.

However, the issue of not requiring New Hampshire residents to posess a New Hampshire boater certificate was just plain sloppy legislation.

So why not just go back and simply ammend the statute? Because once you get a law back before the House & the Senate no one can be sure what will happen to it when folks start tacking ammendments on to the bill.

Example? Once again I'll bring up the RSA regarding overnight mooring. Everyone at Safety knows that the current ban only applies to one specific classification of boat, even though that statue is misrepresented in both the training guides and information put out by the Department. But no one wants to revisit the statute as was attempted over a decade ago, because of the fear that an ammendment won't pass and the problem could become unmanageable once the public realizes the truth.

Kind of like the debacle that happened when Safety attempted to regulate swim rafts through the Adminstrative Code process and had its hand slapped by the Legislture.

Ah, politics in New Hampshire...you gotta love it!

[Resident 2B]

BI,

There is a huge difference between self-study and an un-proctered exam. A person can learn much outside the classroom and do well in a structed examination setting. The issue about on-line exams was the lack of control over the examination setting.

I completely agree with you regarding self-study. Like you, I did a lot of self-study while I was in college.

My concern is that there are ways around the NH requirements and I would expect those that are pushing for stronger boating limits refrain from helping folks in getting around the current requirements. If a safer lake is the objective, boater knowledge proven by a controlled testing environment must be something with a high prioroty.

This has nothing to do with lies. It has everything to do with common sense. You are either on the side of a safer lake or you are not. Your postings seem to go from one side of the issue to the other.

I am for a safer lake because it is in the best interest of all users of the lake, those with power boats, those with canoes and kayaks, those that sail and those that swin in the lake. Proctered safe-boating exams are clearly a attribute that supports a safer lake. How you prepare for those exams is a personal issue.

R2B

[dpg]

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

BI,

There is a huge difference between self-study and an un-proctered exam. A person can learn much outside the classroom and do well in a structed examination setting. The issue about on-line exams was the lack of control over the examination setting.

I completely agree with you regarding self-study. Like you, I did a lot of self-study while I was in college.

My concern is that there are ways around the NH requirements and I would expect those that are pushing for stronger boating limits refrain from helping folks in getting around the current requirements. If a safer lake is the objective, boater knowledge proven by a controlled testing environment must be something with a high prioroty.

This has nothing to do with lies. It has everything to do with common sense. You are either on the side of a safer lake or you are not. Your postings seem to go from one side of the issue to the other.

I am for a safer lake because it is in the best interest of all users of the lake, those with power boats, those with canoes and kayaks, those that sail and those that swin in the lake. Proctered safe-boating exams are clearly a attribute that supports a safer lake. How you prepare for those exams is a personal issue.

R2B

While the classroom setting is probably the best tool for truely learning, the truth is most people do and will forget. I have had the certificate for years and quite honestly probably forget well over 50% of what was taught. Anyone who took it years ago and says they do not is most likely full of it. I've never had a problem on the lake.....All the courses in the world can't teach common sense and manners.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by dpg

I have had the certificate for years and quite honestly probably forget well over 50% of what was taught. I've never had a problem on the lake.....All the courses in the world can't teach common sense and manners.

We could probably say the same for motor vehicle courses too.I'm sure I couldnt remember most of the stuff on the test.One does however remember the important ones that are drilled home on us like speeding and DWI.The same could happen with boating if the safe passage law were forced in the face of all boaters.

[sa meredith]

As a very new boater (this will be my 3rd year, 24' bowrider), I feel compelled to post that I received my certificate via the internet, and yes, I looked up each answer as I took the test....but this indeed forced me to learn proper rules and safety. And I am very comfortable with my knowledge of proper navigation and safety. In fact, I am often shocked, when talking with other boaters on the lake, who look at me like I have two heads when I use a term like "stand on" or "give way vessel". They haven't a clue what the words mean...never mind who has "right of way" in a given situation.
Also, I took the time to learn to navigate with the compass, markers, and a chart...no GPS. I can't begin to count the number of people I find with that have been on the lake for years, but without their GPS would be lost forever. I guess my point is this...because someone earned their cert. on the 'net, does not mean they should not have your respect as being a safe boater.
I quickly learned that boating during the week was the only time I could count on other boaters knowing the correct course of action in any situation... But on weekends????? Good luck to you!!!!!!

[wehatetoquitit]

Thoughts while shaving: Before I took an on-line course and subsequent on-line exam, I checked with marine patrol and was told that the course had to be either NASBLA or CC approved. My course was, but I understand the concerns over the on-line course in general, and do believe that an "in-person" course and proctored exam are a must, and plan to take the course this summer, even though I have a certificate. Having said that, would it be a problem if stoped for a violation by the MP and issued a citation, one of the requirements (if you have an on-line cert.) in addition to the fine would be repeating the course or passing the proctored exam. If the recipient of the fine did not complete the course or pass the proctored exam, the fine would be severely increased. A second violation would then result in an impounded boat. This could, I think be implemented by the courts and might not require any additional legislation. Any how just random thoughts.

[sa meredith]

So, then, what would you say about a boater who is stopped for a violation but has taken the "classroom" test..."No, biggie! Thanks for playing. Have a great day now." ????????
The bottom line is this...every boater is responible for knowing proper safety, and the correct course of action in any given situation...reguardless of the method by which they learned. Don't think less of a captain who took the test on line. He (or she) may indeed be more safety conscious than you.
And finally...
I was thinking this summer it would be interetsing to carry a large sign on the boat (mostly on weekends) that simply read "150", and hold it up every time I get buzzed by some fool who hasn't a clue. Do you think they would even understand the meaning of the number?

[Bear Islander]

Taking the course on-line is still allowed in NH. It is only the test that must be taken in person.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

...
I was thinking this summer it would be interetsing to carry a large sign on the boat (mostly on weekends) that simply read "150", and hold it up every time I get buzzed by some fool who hasn't a clue. Do you think they would even understand the meaning of the number?

A lot of people will know the meaning of the number but will swear to you that they were much further away. People have a tough time judging distance without references.

[sa meredith]

I guess a good "rule of thumb" would be...if you're not sure, increase your distance a little more.

[winnilaker]

Originally Posted by jrc

A lot of people will know the meaning of the number but will swear to you that they were much further away. People have a tough time judging distance without references.

I always tell people if you can read the bow numbers, you or they are too close. It may work out to be a little further than 150 but more is better.

[tis]

winni, that is what a MP officer told me once. Was that YOU???

[jrc]

By my calculations a person with average vision can read 3" letters at 172 feet so that's a pretty good rule of thumb.

distance in inches = 3 inches / tangent of 5 minutes of arc

Of course people with poorer eyesight have to come closer to read the numbers. Which means in congested high traffic areas, I should take off my glasses to maintain high speed.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Wait, could it be this simple?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

Wait, could it be this simple?

Very clever. Decal manufacturers will make those in any size, and those could be placed on kayaks and sails.

(But I like 150' Rules)

I made one that says, WIND TAX → for the registration decal on my unpowered sailboat. And also put the RSA, RSA 270 E4 on my kayak.... (An MP officer once wrongly ticketed me as having violated that RSA: a letter in support from NHMP Director Barrett is stored inside that kayak).

With that RSA on my kayak's bow, I watched as an MP put down his binoculars and wave the following season!

Originally Posted by jrc

"...By my calculations a person with average vision can read 3" letters at 172 feet so that's a pretty good rule of thumb..."

Calculations, like statistics, can be handy indicators: In the real world, boat numbers on moving boats are difficult to read at that distance even when conditions are ideal.

Another 150' rule of thumb is 11 Sunfish sailboats lined up end-to-end.

[SBC]

Originally Posted by jrc

By my calculations a person with average vision can read 3" letters at 172 feet so that's a pretty good rule of thumb.

distance in inches = 3 inches / tangent of 5 minutes of arc

Of course people with poorer eyesight have to come closer to read the numbers. Which means in congested high traffic areas, I should take off my glasses to maintain high speed.

What you may actually find is that the majority of folks with 20/20 or corrected vision can read the 3" bow numbers clearly at about 100-125'. I saw a clear demonstration of this in a Boating Education class. Only a few younger boaters and women are able to read those numbers clearly at 150'. Also take into account that that would be under ideal conditions, i.e. contrasting color to the hull, minimal water/sun glare/reflection, little or no steep rake on the bow, etc.

When in doubt, slowing down is always an option.

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by wehatetoquitit

Thoughts while shaving: ... This could, I think be implemented by the courts and might not require any additional legislation. ...

The courts are limited to the senteces and sentence guidelines approved by the legislature. Increased sentences for repeat offenders is a good idea though (imo), as long as the first time punishment is enough to discourage most folks from wating until they get caught, to behave themselves.

[froggy]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

Also, I took the time to learn to navigate with the compass, markers, and a chart...no GPS. I can't begin to count the number of people I find with that have been on the lake for years, but without their GPS would be lost forever. I guess my point is this...because someone earned their cert. on the 'net, does not mean they should not have your respect as being a safe boater.
I quickly learned that boating during the week was the only time I could count on other boaters knowing the correct course of action in any situation... But on weekends????? Good luck to you!!!!!!

"But on weekends????? Good luck to you!!!!!!"

PERFECT writing. We also navigate with compass, markers, & charts (no maps!) and no GPS.
When I was a kid, in a coastal community, we boated and were taught right of way rules. We learned to respect the water and whatever body of water we were on. Respect for other boaters was taught.

I have been on this Lake for 40 years. The first time, I quickly observed a very big lack of respect. It's so bad, everyone I know who has a boat of any size, will never venture out on the Lake on weekends, from mid-June through Labor Day weekend. I saw people selling boats, where buyers asked no questions, and the sales persons were happy to send them on their way. No boater orientation in any way. I could not believe it!

In MD, my brother in law will navigate with GPS when fishing; BUT with him, six of us once sailed from Carolinas to Virgin Islands in 50' yawl, well before GPS days; he often used a sextant; we were ten days w/o seeing land!