Lt. Dunleavy, NHMP, responds....

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Boats that have moved to another body of water do not cause ANY erosion or congestion on Winnipesaukee.

The opposition has claimed many times that the economy of the lakes area will be ruined when high performance boats leave the lake. We have seen evidence on this forum and elsewhere that boats are already leaving the lake because of coming speed limits. A speed limit will effect the future purchase decisions of Winnipesaukee boaters. It is ludicrous to assume high performance boats will continue to operate in large numbers on Winni.

Over the years the number of performance boats on this lake will decline, just like they have on all the other lakes that have enacted speed limits.

Are there large numbers of high speed performance boats in Winni? I certainly see some but IMHO not large numbers. Maybe one is too many for BI, it certainly seems so.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

Are there large numbers of high speed performance boats in Winni? I certainly see some but IMHO not large numbers. Maybe one is too many for BI, it certainly seems so.

A butterfly is a beautiful thing, but it does not belong in my soup. A high performance boat can be beautiful and fun. But the lake is to small and fragile for their growing numbers.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

A butterfly is a beautiful thing, but it does not belong in my soup. A high performance boat can be beautiful and fun. But the lake is to small and fragile for their growing numbers.

Your speed limit crusade will do nothing to lower the growing numbers of high performance boats. It's kind of like painting a brick house, it makes a few people feel better, but then it starts peeling, causing problems while solving nothing.

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

A butterfly is a beautiful thing, but it does not belong in my soup. A high performance boat can be beautiful and fun. But the lake is to small and fragile for their growing numbers.

You still did not answer my question. Are there large numbers of performance boats on Lake Winnipesaukee? I stick by my statement that I just don't see large numbers of boats on the lake..some, but not large numbers.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

You still did not answer my question. Are there large numbers of performance boats on Lake Winnipesaukee? I stick by my statement that I just don't see large numbers of boats on the lake..some, but not large numbers.

Not to quibble but it depends on what you call large numbers. There are a lot more than there used to be. And the numbers will grow as other lakes enact speed limits. Many states have limits, Maine is considering them now.

There are performance boaters on Winni now that have moved here because the lakes they came from passed limits. Lake George for example. Do you want Winni to be the only lake for performance boating?

When the numbers of performance boats is enough to limit summer camp activities, then that is "large numbers".

[Lakegeezer]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

There are performance boaters on Winni now that have moved here because the lakes they came from passed limits. Lake George for example. Do you want Winni to be the only lake for performance boating?

Wow! This is great. Maybe this is the answer to spark the rennovation of Weirs Beach. Put a race course out on the broads and have weekly speed trials. No wake of course, till out past Govnr's Island. With speed boats at the Weirs and sailing from Fays, the West side lake economy should pick up nicely.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Bear Islander:
Not to quibble but it depends on what you call large numbers. There are a lot more than there used to be. And the numbers will grow as other lakes enact speed limits. Many states have limits, Maine is considering them now.

Since you seem to know more than we do, how many are there on Lake Winnipesaukee? Personally last summer I saw two!

Originally posted by Bear Islander:
There are performance boaters on Winni now that have moved here because the lakes they came from passed limits. Lake George for example. Do you want Winni to be the only lake for performance boating?

Funny, the two I saw had NH bow numbers. I thought New York issued bow numbers that begin with NY? Hmmm...

Originally posted by Bear Islander:
When the numbers of performance boats is enough to limit summer camp activities, then that is "large numbers".

Where is this summer camp that seems to be the target of performance boats and what are the boats doing that would keep campers out of the water?

It seems to me that if performance boats were causing problems and havoc among summer campers somewhere on Lake Winnipesaukee then there would be a records of multiple calls to the Marine Patrol and local police in the town where the infraction is occurring. It would also seem to me that when questioned by legislators the Marine Patrol would present those reports, unless of course there were no reports or they are unfounded.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Since you seem to know more than we do, how many are there on Lake Winnipesaukee? Personally last summer I saw two!


Funny, the two I saw had NH bow numbers. I thought New York issued bow numbers that begin with NY? Hmmm...


Where is this summer camp that seems to be the target of performance boats and what are the boats doing that would keep campers out of the water?

It seems to me that if performance boats were causing problems and havoc among summer campers somewhere on Lake Winnipesaukee then there would be a records of multiple calls to the Marine Patrol and local police in the town where the infraction is occurring. It would also seem to me that when questioned by legislators the Marine Patrol would present those reports, unless of course there were no reports or they are unfounded.

You know I get tired of your putting words in my mouth. Why do you feel the need to expand what I say into far more than it was? I never made ANY comments about summer camps being targeted by performance boats. I never claimed any infractions by performance boats whatsoever.

Pretending I said things I never did is just another way of telling lies.

If I understand you correctly you only saw two performance boats on the lake last summer. Are you having problems with your vision, or do you have some extreme definition of the term "performance boat"?

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I never claimed ANY comments about summer camps being targeted by performance boats. I never claimed any infractions by performance boats whatsoever.

No infractions you say? Then pray tell what is the issue??? Why are YOU targeting performance boats then?

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by codeman671

No infractions you say? Then pray tell what is the issue??? Why are YOU targeting performance boats then?

I explained my position of summer camps earlier in this thread. See post 35, 38, 40, 45, 59, 64, 66, 69, 87, 92 and 104.

#87 is the best one, but do not miss the part in #90 where Woodsy thinks children's camps should hire Marine Patrol details to protect their children.

Also interesting is #36 where Dick, who opposes speed limits, claims any camp director that allows a canoe out on Winnipesaukee should be fired.

It's nice when the opposition makes your arguments for you.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I explained my position of summer camps earlier in this thread. See post 35, 38, 40, 45, 59, 64, 66, 69, 87, 92 and 104.

#87 is the best one, but do not miss the part in #90 where Woodsy thinks children's camps should hire Marine Patrol details to protect their children.

Also interesting is #36 where Dick, who opposes speed limits, claims any camp director that allows a canoe out on Winnipesaukee should be fired.

It's nice when the opposition makes your arguments for you.

My main point was the fact that you mentioned performance boats had made no infractions...Rather comical given some of your stands.

I have no problem with the concept of keeping our children safe. In case you forgot or did not know, my house faces Camp Lawrence. The issue that I have is the boats that do not heed the 150' rule who constantly are coming too close to their ski boat (the white center console) or us when we are wakeboarding in the bay between Mark and Bear. It is not the peformance guys doing this.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by codeman671

My main point was the fact that you mentioned performance boats had made no infractions...Rather comical given some of your stands.

I have no problem with the concept of keeping our children safe. In case you forgot or did not know, my house faces Camp Lawrence. The issue that I have is the boats that do not heed the 150' rule who constantly are coming too close to their ski boat (the white center console) or us when we are wakeboarding in the bay between Mark and Bear. It is not the peformance guys doing this.

One again, please don't put words in my mouth. I never said performance boats were not committing infractions. I also never said performance boats were committing infractions. I never talked about performance boat infractions at all.

I have said that the New Hampshire Camp Directors Association supports speed limits. I had talked to Winnipesaukee camp directors that claim they are afraid to send their small boats out on the lake. That is all the evidence I need to convince me the lake needs a speed limit. All the other arguments I put forth are just extra.

A speed limit will not solve the problems you mention, nothing will. They are however a step in the right direction.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

One again, please don't put words in my mouth. I never said performance boats were not committing infractions. I also never said performance boats were committing infractions. I never talked about performance boat infractions at all.

I have said that the New Hampshire Camp Directors Association supports speed limits. I had talked to Winnipesaukee camp directors that claim they are afraid to send their small boats out on the lake. That is all the evidence I need to convince me the lake needs a speed limit. All the other arguments I put forth are just extra.

A speed limit will not solve the problems you mention, nothing will. They are however a step in the right direction.

Put words in your mouth? It was YOUR quote that I provided back to you! You clearly stated that you had never claimed any infractions by performance boats. If there are no infractions, what are you complaining about??? If there are no infractions, then why do you claim of issues of 75mph boats traveling through crowded bays???

Frostbite? Lack of sunshine? Need to get back to the island??? Not sure what your issue is but you need to take it easy.

Originally Posted by bear islander

I never claimed ANY comments about summer camps being targeted by performance boats. I never claimed any infractions by performance boats whatsoever.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Put words in your mouth? It was YOUR quote that I provided back to you! You clearly stated that you had never claimed any infractions by performance boats. If there are no infractions, what are you complaining about??? If there are no infractions, then why do you claim of issues of 75mph boats traveling through crowded bays???

Frostbite? Lack of sunshine? Need to get back to the island??? Not sure what your issue is but you need to take it easy.

Airwaves posted that I was claiming performance boats were committing violations at summer camps. I corrected him by saying I had never made that claim. What are you finding so confusing?

Please tell me the post number where you think I made that claim so I can go back and review it.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Bear Islander:
You know I get tired of your putting words in my mouth. Why do you feel the need to expand what I say into far more than it was? I never made ANY comments about summer camps being targeted by performance boats. I never claimed any infractions by performance boats whatsoever.

Pretending I said things I never did is just another way of telling lies.

Gee, let’s review in post #289 you wrote:

When the numbers of performance boats is enough to limit summer camp activities, then that is "large numbers".

So if performance boats are not causing infractions near summer camps why have you implied that they are reason to limit summer camp activities? If there are no performance boats causing problems near summer camps why bring it up? Fear mongering again!

BTW, you still haven’t answered the specific question I put to you, neither has Evenstar and way back when APS ignored the specifics I asked him as well.

Originally posted by Evenstar:
Airways, read your own post. I never even mentioned Florida when I quoted the Chief Warrant Officer – not because I “forgot to post it”, but because Florida has absolutely nothing to do with his article. He never even mentioned Florida, because he wasn’t writing about Florida boaters. His article was about The U.S. Coast Guard’s Navigation Rules, not just Florida’s boating rules! You were the one who brought Florida into this discussion, not me

Nope, sorry you knew you were quoting a CWO from Florida and that he was writing based on his experiences as the CO of a CG Station in Florida. BTW I believe the Coast Guard operates in the Atlantic and Gulf in Florida and leave the inland waterways and swamps to the State of Florida to patrol,

But it’s interesting that you admit comparing Florida boating to Winni is comparing Apples and Oranges in your statement directly above the one in which you deny bringing up Florida

Originally posted by Evenstar
Winni is 20 miles long, Squam is 8 miles long. They are both large NH lakes, so they are both apples – Winni just a larger apple – the ocean (which is not a large lake) is the orange.

So which is it? Quote a Coast Guard official speaking about ocean boating (USCG Nav rules have not been adopted by NH) and say he’s really speaking about Winnipesaukee, or that the ocean and Winnipesaukee are completely different?

So, any of the three of you going to answer the specific questions I asked? APS you’ll have to go back through the threads and look for them yourself!

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

BTW, you still haven’t answered the specific question I put to you, neither has Evenstar.

What question havent' I answered?

Nope, sorry you knew you were quoting a CWO from Florida and that he was writing based on his experiences as the CO of a CG Station in Florida. . . . But it’s interesting that you admit comparing Florida boating to Winni is comparing Apples and Oranges in your statement directly above the one in which you deny bringing up Florida

Quoting a Coast Guard commander who was stationed in Florida is not "bringing up Florida." No where is his entire article is Florida even mentioned. The article is not about Forida - so get off my case. You brought Florida into this conversation not me.

So which is it? Quote a Coast Guard official speaking about ocean boating (USCG Nav rules have not been adopted by NH) and say he’s really speaking about Winnipesaukee, or that the ocean and Winnipesaukee are completely different?

The Commander's article is about boater safety, on ALL bodies of water - and about the rules of navigation. All states' (including NH) boating rules are based on the USCG's Rules of Navigation.

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Yeah I really don't get it and everyone else who doesn't agree with you just doesn't get it and isn't open minded and so enlightened as you. Lets just legislate on fear. Great way to govern. Just so YOU get it I'll explain further. I do not and never intend to own a performance boat. I actually enjoy kayaking. I am just someone who has a real big problem letting fear dictate how laws pass. Also, contrary to your post no kayakers rights have been ever taken from them. They still have every right to kayak on the lake.

I wrote “You really don’t get do you,” not as an insult or anything, but because I believe that you really aren’t seeing the problem that I and others are seeing and have experienced. This is not about “enlightenment”, but many speed limit opponents on this forum have been very narrow-minded in the way that they have treated anyone who has had different experiences from them. Just because you have not had a negative encounter with a high-speed boat does not mean that this hasn’t happen to others.

There are all sorts of legislation that is based on fear. Most of the USA Patriot Act is legislation that is based on fear. There are 27 NH RSAs that include the word “fear” and 219 with the word “danger.” There are hundreds of NH laws that were passed to protect the public from unsafe conditions. Many speed limit supporters feel that it is very unsafe to allow power boats to travel at unlimited speeds on NH lakes. It has been my experience that the 150 foot rule doesn’t work very well at protecting paddlers when power boats are traveling at high speeds.

Paddlers and other small boat owners’ rights have been taken away from them. When you give up the use of a NH lake, due to the fear of being run over by high speed boats, that is losing your rights. You may claim that their fear is irrational, but all the people that I know who will no longer paddle on Winni seem like very rational people who have had to choose between their own safety and being able to use a NH lake. That is just not right, no matter how you try to spin it.

I maintain that regardless of a 45 MPH speed limit you'll still be a sitting duck in the broads. Careless and inattentive boaters will still be out in full force.

I’ve explained this numerous times, yet “you still don’t get it” (sorry, but apparently that’s true). Faster boats have less time to see me, and I have less time to get out of their way. That’s why it is the faster boats that have been the one’s that have unintentionally violated my 150 foot zone. “Careless and inattentive boaters” become a much greater danger at higher speeds.

No I read it and I still can not believe you are trying to compare the two lakes. Keep doing it though it further undermines your argument. Squam would never ever ever draw the same types of boats even if it did NOT have a speed limit and winni did squam would not attract high performance boats. Why is that hard for you to understand?

If Squam did not have a 40mph speed limit, many boats would be going way faster than 40mph on Squam, and I've seen plenty of boats on Squam that are capable of exceeding 45mph. Why is it that you completely ignored what I posted about Lake Champlainlace? So why do kayakers prefer Champlain and Squam over Winni?

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by APS:

That observation is based on the 2005 Poker Run Smoke on the Waters, where three passengers drowned after their shoes, clothes, and mandated PFDs were ripped off at a USCG-observed 70-MPH.

"Always wear clean underwear" couldn't apply at that outrageous speed.

I guess I wasn’t clear in my post. Yes I know that you wrote there is no reason to wear an off the shelf PFD above a certain speed, which I took to mean you saying there is no reason to wear one at all, apologies if I misinterpreted your point.

Since I am not privy to the details I don’t know what type PFDs the crew was wearing or whether the PFDs were off the shelf or not.

BTW, where was the Smoke on the Waters 2005 Poker Run held?

If either the Poker Run itself or the accident were observed by the Coast Guard it's a safe bet it wasn't held in New Hampshire! Now I direct your attention, and that of BI and Evenstar to post #409. Please respond.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Put words in your mouth? It was YOUR quote that I provided back to you! You clearly stated that you had never claimed any infractions by performance boats. If there are no infractions, what are you complaining about??? If there are no infractions, then why do you claim of issues of 75mph boats traveling through crowded bays???

Frostbite? Lack of sunshine? Need to get back to the island??? Not sure what your issue is but you need to take it easy.

BI didn't say there were no violations.