Hb 847 Meeting In Concord.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

Come on BI!

Your side is doing all it can to buy a law that restricts the personal freedom of a group of people that your side does not want on the lake. That is clearly what you folks are doing through your very-well financed, professional campaign.

Your side has stooped to no limit in doing this. Baised surveys, misinformation about things on other lakes in other states that do not have our 150' rule and photos that create false messages are what you folks are all about. To me, your activities are very un-American and completely shameless. You all should be thinking about your devious role in a free society.

This has just been completely proven by many posters who care about freedom and the rights of American citizens who like to boat on a lake that your side thinks they own.

Your recent post shows the behavior of a child that just got caught with his or her hand in the cookie jar.

R2B

I don't belong to a "side". I am just me, not a member of any movement.

Both sides can get carried away in heated argument. If you don't like what WinnFABS has done complain to them or complain about them. I am only responsible for me. I disagree with WinnFABS on some key points, in general I support what they do, speed limits.

You have made another claim "well financed" I think you are guessing again. Financed by who? The deep pockets seem to be on your side of the argument. I can tell you I have not seen a penny.

Perhaps when this is all over you will consider that a person can believe in freedom, America AND speed limits.

[Island Lover]

Hi Resident 2B

Will you please try and make your posts less personal.

[Resident 2B]

BI,

I have no problem with any speed limit law that is or was passed after careful and thoughtful consideration with proponents and opponents presenting honest and fair arguments. The policing power's opinion should also be given consideration when passing any law.

It is not the law itself that got me so involved in this discussion, it is the tactics of the proponents, which are clearly the over-the-line in so many areas in this discussion.

I would guess this law has a better than 50% chance of being enacted, but the tactics used by the proponents to get the job done is full of lies, misinformation and unfairly biased surveys. This will be remembered by many in a lasting impression of unfair advantage.

The misinformation was so bad that I felt I had to point these things out. I know others feel the same. I remain firm in my position that the tactics used by the porponents are tactics from the McCarthy era of our history and as such are un-American and have no place in a great state who's motto is "Live Free or Die".

That is all from me on this subject. Enough is enough!

Back to discussions on weather and things on the lake that make me love this place.

Best regards,

R2B

[Bear Islander]

A little follow up on the WinnFABS=NHLA theory. Below are some laws the NHLA have initiated. At the moment they are working on...

Requiring notification of a failed septic system at a purchase and sale agreement of waterfront property.

You may agree or disagree with some of their initiatives, however it seems clear they are a major force in improving our lakes.



NH LAKES initiated the following legislation:

Commission to study the leasing of state-owned shorefront property (2007)

Licensing rental agents of motorized watercraft (2007)

Permanent funding beginning in 2008 for milfoil prevention and research program (2006)

The Volunteer Lake Assessment Program (VLAP) and Coordinator position created in statute (2005)

Comprehensive Shoreland Protection Act Commission (2005)

The 'Render Assistance' Amendment to Conduct - After - An - Accident (2004)

Milfoil Prevention & Research Grant Program (2002)

Enhanced Comprehensive Shoreland Protection Act (2002)

Boater Safety (2000)

Increased Funding for Marine Patrol (1999)

Lead Sinker Bill (1998)

Funding for the Comprehensive Shoreland Protection Act (1994)

Low Phosphate Household Detergents (1994)

[DoTheMath]

Ok, so - how about a show of hands... who was there on Monday - at the State House - for the hearing? I was - I sat through the whole thing, listened to both sides and found everyone's testimony to be lucid and (for the most part) well thought out. At one point - one of the members of the Transportation Comm. asked the person speaking to address a question of "balance" on the lake. Paraphrased, the question was something like "do you feel that there is a way to compromise, or strike a balance between both sides of this issue"? Basically, how do we not impose a speed limit that would chase away the opponents of the bill, but at the same time keep those that are "frightened" to go out on the lake during the weekend from being chased off and feeling slighted?

As everyone stood and presented their side, it was clearly divided - one side wants speed limits for various reasons, and one side does not for various reasons. But no one really and truly addressed a possible "balance" of the two. Someone got up and stated the balance was the speed limit - clearly that is not a balance, regardless of what anyone on that side might think. Much like an insurance company runs on statistics, and they use actuaries to determine the rates and so on using those stats... the speed limit bill needs to focus on the facts. Facts such as - how many accidents really occurred as a DIRECT result of speed, on the big lake and / or in the state over the last year, or the last 5 or 10? Not how many "close calls" there were or how many times (as stated by one speaker in favor of the limit) they felt "threatened" by a "fast boat" passing too close? Speed on the water is amazingly deceptive - standing on a dock and looking out on to open water, I have had people say to me "wow, look how fast that boat is going!" At which point, I try a little experiment - I hop in my boat and head out and make that same pass (safely of course and following all of the lakes current laws ) and make a pass at 40 mph. I come back to the dock and ask "how fast do you think that was"? I will typically get anywhere from 55 - 65 mph as an answer, (every so often I get 70+ from someone that is a bit "green" on boating) when I tell them 40mph - they don't believe it! My point!? People that got up Monday to speak in favor of the bill stated all they (thought) they knew about how fast boats went by them "too fast" in their kayak, or row boat or sail boat - but in actuality, no one had a radar gun or knowledge of how fast they were really going. So, what is too fast!? Too fast for the conditions, too fast for the area, or too fast just because it looked like it was too fast? Few had ever been in a boat at 45mph, let alone above that speed and yet - they felt 45mph is "fast enough" for our 27 mile-long lake!? I know the first time I ever went fast in a boat, (as a passenger) it was overwhelming - sensory overload - and it is a euphoric feeling. The first time I ever drove a boat fast, I did it far away from any one or any boat, had someone with me that had lots of experience and I worked my way up based on comfort and skill. I talked to a lot of people with experience and learned how to it it safely, and ALWAYS considered all my surroundings, water conditions, congestion, my equipment etc... Trust me, "fast" feels different - and is very subjective - the first time you do it - because you have never been there before, there have been studies that show what happens to the body in times like that. Your adrenaline kicks in, like on a roller coaster and you just get that feeling of "wow". Performance boats look fast just tied to the dock, painted all fancy and racy - and when going along at 30 or 40 mph, can look like they are going 2x as fast. Once up on plane, a 38' performance boat gives off about the same wake as a 23' bowrider will at the same speed - say 35 mph - so, is the performance boat more of a threat as it passes by? No. By design a performance boats bottom - what it rides on through the water - is designed to turn, run and react quicker then your average "family boat" will. Thus, in the event of having to avoid a situation, will handle that maneuver far better and more successfully than your average boat would.

I own a "performance boat" that will do well over 45mph, I own a 17' Boston Whaler that will do about 43mph, and I own a 12' aluminum boat with an 8hp o/b that will do < 15mph. I have been on the big lake my entire life, since I was 10 mo. old - I'm 39 now - and have seen MANY changes. Boats got bigger, houses got bigger and yes, the area has been developed. We own a house on the water on the west end of the lake and I can't think of a better place to spend my time, esp. now that we have a 3 year old son to share it with. One of the big misconceptions surrounding all of this is that people that own fast boats drive them fast all the time, tearing up the lake recklessly and with careless abandon. As an owner of one, and having many friends who also own them - I can assure you this is NOT the case! We are hard-working family people - with kids - and we go out and enjoy our boating like everyone else, we just choose to do it in a particular style of boat. I don't look down on the guy with a 16' bowrider, or the pontoon boat, or the sail boat, that is their choice as to how they want to enjoy the lake. That is the beauty of this country - freedom of choice - you choose to buy what suits your budget, style of boating and your families needs. And if you are fortunate enough to be able to be out in a boat - on the lake - then ya, consider yourself fortunate! Every weekend, weekday or whenever I can be out there - sharing my time on the water with my family and friends - I consider myself fortunate, as does my wife and our friends.

Growing up, I was taught right from wrong - as most of us were - and with that eventually came an inherent level of common sense. If the stove top is hot, don't touch it - you will get burned and that is not enjoyable. You are told not to touch it, and if you had to find out the hard way just for your own satisfaction - you touched it and learned why, and more than likely - never did it again. I was also taught growing up - by my dad - how to drive a boat, and with that - he taught me how to be a "good boater". How to navigate and do so safely, and how to use the common sense god - and your parents - gave you to enhance that skill! For example, if you see a boat with the hatch up, or dead in the water in the middle of a well-traveled area, stop and ask them if they need help. As an adult, I have been fortunate enough to own many boats of all types, fast, slow, big, small and each boat is suitable for different types of boating. My common sense tells me - taking my 12' aluminum boat out for a ride on a nice sunny Saturday in July with my 3 year old son and venturing across the lake over to Shep Browns for some fuel... really not a good idea! Much like jumping on my mountain bike and heading out for a ride on Rte. 93 on a busy Friday afternoon is not a good idea either. No more would you find me trying to take my "performance boat" into a shallow tiny little cove to go fishing with my son and expecting to not hit anything - like a rock or the bottom, that's what my 12' dingy is for. All boats were designed with a specific range of use as part of that design - a ski boat was not designed to mount outriggers on and go out trawling for tuna. I don't hammer nails with a pipe wrench, I use a hammer - I don't eat tomato soup with a fork, I use a spoon.... I use the right tool, the right utensil for the task at hand, it's just common sense. All these people that "fear for their lives" on the lake - need to stop and think about what they are doing. Are you the guy or gal riding your mountain bike on rte. 93 during the Friday afternoon rush!? Are you trying to eat your peas with a butter knife and wondering why it doesn't work for you like it does in the cartoons!? Are you trying to cross a busy section of the lake in your kayak on a Saturday and not giving it a second thought, and then wondering why you possibly feel "unsafe"!? Are you carrying 500lb propane tanks on a 17' boat across to an island - as stated by one speaker Monday - and wondering why you feel "threatened" by passing boaters!? BTW - is that smart - let alone even legal to do, shouldn't there be something to regulate that kind of reckless transport?!? Hey, how's that overloaded floating time-bomb you are driving!? Maybe use a big barge to carry a load like that next time - a bit more suitable, don't you think!?

The balance is to boat smarter - not slower! Use your head when you go out there and boat for the conditions that are present. Just because things have changed over the last 50, 70, 100 years... doesn't mean that time should be meant to stand still, and we should revert back to 1962. Everyone should be free to enjoy the lake with whatever type of boat their budget and life-style dictates, so long as they use it in a reasonable and prudent manner for the prevailing conditions at that time. That covers the type of boat, the water and traffic conditions, the elements, etc... All you need to do is think - put the brain in gear before the boat, (or before the paddle hits the water) and consider what you are about to do. You wouldn't take a Ferrari out in a snow storm as you know it wasn't designed for that - and thus, probably won't have positive results. So, why would you load your kids, your dog, a cooler and a set of skis into your boat and head out to the channel between Meredith Neck and Bear Island on a busy summer Saturday and say "ok, who's going to get in and go for a ski first!?" When you could be smart about it, take 5 min. and drive over to the back side of Beaver Isl. and do the same with little to no traffic to worry about and be much safer!?

At the end of the day - you can't teach common sense - but you can teach people to be better / safer / smarter boaters! We are doing that through the safe boating certificate program now, and it is working very well! We need to continue that program and support it's goals and we will continue to be amazed at the positive results, many of which we have seen already!!

Be safe - be smart and all will benefit from it!

[Airwaves]

So let me get this straight. The speed limit crowd is quoting from a survey done by a firm with a questionable reputation, conducted in an area away from the lake, and with an unknown number of people that have experience on Lake Winnipesaukee?

But they call the Marine Patrol research, conducted on the lake in much the same manner in which they will have to set up radar posts if this bill becomes law, flawed?

The ARS survery, as I understand it would be like conducting a poll for the Republican Presidential Primary but including Democratic voters in the results!


In the spirit of compromise, and this is mainly directed toward any Senator or State Rep that happens to be lurking. I would propose the following that would solve most of the problems raised by the folks truely concerned about safety (none of the issues raised by people who want performance boats gone) and at the same time I believe it would be acceptable to many of the folks that oppose HB847.

Substitute the language in HB 847 with the USCG Navigation Rule 6. Here are the benefits.

1. It would give Marine Patrol greater flexibility in deciding what is an unsafe speed for the conditions that exist.
2. The could enforce this law visually, without the need for radar.
3. Without having to rely on radar they don't have to divert resources currently used for safety patrols.
4. No additional funds need be spent for radar certification.
5. Rule 6 spells out exactly what criteria is used in its enforcement.
6. It would not establish arbitrary numbers allowing boats to travel at speeds that are safe above or below 45 given existing conditions.
7. It actually addresses safety issues.

I would back the adoption of Rule 6 100%.

[Bear Islander]

So in the spirit of compromise, you are will to accept what the opposition has wanted all along. This is the kind of "compromise" that will give you 45/25 everywhere.

For a second I thought you might be talking real compromise, like 45/25 except in the broads.