Life after speed limits

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

The only reason to NOT have a 45 mph speed limit is because a few rich people want to go dangerously fast on a crowded lake. Incredibly they seem to have convinced a few people that don't have fast boats that its REALLY about personal freedom. They spread the lie that it will cost money to enforce (it cost nothing). They even spread two mutually exclusive theories that A) Nobody is going to leave the lake or slow down and B) The lakes region economy will be ruined when the high performance boats leave.
They point to a study they think says nobody is speeding (it doesn't), while forgetting the simple reality that if nobody is speeding, then nobody will be inconvenienced by this law.
The few that own these expensive, highly polluting, global warming, gas hogs, fly around the lake at speeds up to 130 mph scaring the living hell out of family boaters. They have no concept of how many small boaters, including children's campers, they are keeping off of the water.
They are coming to Winnipesaukee because the are being regulated off other lakes. As this trend continues their numbers will grow. Their wakes kill loons, and erode the shore. The water quality of the lake is slowly dropping.
What this is really about is money. The marine manufacturer's and people that sell and service high performance boats will do ANYTHING, tell any lie, play any card, enlist any well intentioned freedom lover, to stop this legislation.

Bear Islander all of my latest comments are stemming from this post. If you post something like this you need to back it up. Two statements stick out as particularly offensive and border on ridiculous:

The few that own these expensive, highly polluting, global warming, gas hogs, fly around the lake at speeds up to 130 mph...

If this is your concern you are going backwards by legislating newer cleaner burning boats off the lake. Oh and by the way give me a break with the flying around at 130mph.

They are coming to Winnipesaukee because the are being regulated off other lakes. As this trend continues their numbers will grow. Their wakes kill loons, and erode the shore.

This was YOUR quote directed at Performance boats, now you are switching gears to this because you dug yourself another hole:

Big wakes, especially when the lake is high in the spring can destroy loon nests or wash out the eggs. The bigger cruisers can cause huge wakes. They are not "just as capable" they are "far more capable", and far more likely. Perhaps you don't get a lot of wake where you are, but I get plenty. The wake from our boats is not much more than I get on a windy day. The big cruisers wake is a lot more than the Mount, other tourist boats or the Bear.

Am I the only one seeing this?????

I feel like I'm talking to a politician.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Bear Islander all of my latest comments are stemming from this post. If you post something like this you need to back it up. Two statements stick out as particularly offensive and border on ridiculous:

The few that own these expensive, highly polluting, global warming, gas hogs, fly around the lake at speeds up to 130 mph...

If this is your concern you are going backwards by legislating newer cleaner burning boats off the lake. Oh and by the way give me a break with the flying around at 130mph.

They are coming to Winnipesaukee because the are being regulated off other lakes. As this trend continues their numbers will grow. Their wakes kill loons, and erode the shore.

This was YOUR quote directed at Performance boats, now you are switching gears to this because you dug yourself another hole:

Big wakes, especially when the lake is high in the spring can destroy loon nests or wash out the eggs. The bigger cruisers can cause huge wakes. They are not "just as capable" they are "far more capable", and far more likely. Perhaps you don't get a lot of wake where you are, but I get plenty. The wake from our boats is not much more than I get on a windy day. The big cruisers wake is a lot more than the Mount, other tourist boats or the Bear.

Am I the only one seeing this?????

I feel like I'm talking to a politician.

If you stop analyzing and comparing everything I say with a microscope you will not have these problems. You are comparing every post in hopes of catching me in a lie. You will NEVER catch me in a lie because I am giving you my honest opinions.

There are no inconsistencies in the posts you quote, you are looking for what is not there, and jumping on nothing at all.

I have NO IDEA what your point is about those three examples in bold type. Every word is absolute truth!

[COWISLAND NH]

Geesh BI...if laws and regulation where made on peoples likes a dislikes we would have regulations on EVERYTHING. Voice your opinion but please do not justify why your opinions should be laws. If people like yourself are SCARED TO HELL by other boats you should ask your self why??? Is it just the sheer speed of them passing by?? Or are they too close?? Are you intimidated by the size??? Why then don't we stop all the big trucks on the highway bc they scare the crap out of my little old grandmom?! Most of the boat owners that have the boats that are going faster then you know how to drive them in a safe manner, and they have been driving around the lake for years w/ little to no issues. Being scared or intimidated by someone else is no reason to make laws to restrict them...maybe you need to be more confident in you abilities to drive a boat in company.
LIVE FREE OR DIE....

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by COWISLAND NH

Voice your opinion but please do not justify why your opinions should be laws.

Why not?


.

[COWISLAND NH]

We need you to come back to reality....thats why.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by COWISLAND NH

We need you to come back to reality....thats why.

I'm asking why I should voice my opinions but not justify them?

If I believe a law will make the lake safer and cleaner, why should I not say so?

Should I only voice opinions the majority agree with?

[fatlazyless]

BIg trucks on the highways require a commercial drivers license and all violations stay on your record for fifteen years. For trucks, the posted speed limit is the speed limit. No fudge factor above what's posted is allowed by the police. Most highway lanes are 12' wide, and tractor trailers have a trailer that is 8 1/2' wide, and lane control is a big deal. Truckers can get ticketed for being out of their lane for lousy lane control.

Unlike Lake Winnipesaukee, NH's road system has lanes with painted lines, and speed limits. Doesn't Lake Winnipesaukee need a 45-25 speed limit on the proposed HB 847, two year temporary trial basis from Jan 1, 2009 to Jan 1, 2011. After two years, the Marine Patrol will have lots of speed limit enforcement experience for the legislature to consider. HB 847 is not carved into granite, it's a two year look-see, and then gets reconsidered. Why not give it a try? Let's try it...after all....you just might like it.

Hey, by January 1, 2011, the republicans could be back in the majority at the statehouse, and what will they do?

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

BIg trucks on the highways require a commercial drivers license (1) and all violations stay on your record for fifteen years(2).For trucks, the posted speed limit is the speed limit. No fudge factor above what's posted is allowed by the police. Most highway lanes are 12' wide, and tractor trailers have a trailer that is 8 1/2' wide, and lane control is a big deal. (3) Truckers can get ticketed for being out of their lane for lousy lane control. (4)

Unlike Lake Winnipesaukee, NH's road system has lanes with painted lines, and speed limits. Doesn't Lake Winnipesaukee need a 45-25 speed limit on the proposed HB 847, two year temporary trial basis from Jan 1, 2009 to Jan 1, 2011. After two years, the Marine Patrol will have lots of speed limit enforcement experience for the legislature to consider. HB 847 is not carved into granite, it's a two year look-see, and then gets reconsidered. Why not give it a try? Let's try it...after all....you just might like it.

Hey, by January 1, 2011, the republicans could be back in the majority at the statehouse, and what will they do?

1. Boaters in the state of NH are required to have certificates. Similar to specialized licensing.
2. It has been talked about that any speeding ticket you get on the lake would go onto your driving record.
3. The state of NH has a 150' rule.
4. Boaters can be ticketed for violating the 150' rule.

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Should I only voice opinions the majority agree with?

In this case the majority does agree with you..............slower is safer!

Thar being the case a law that enforces that only makes sense.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by JDeere

In this case the majority does agree with you..............slower is safer!

Thar being the case a law that enforces that only makes sense.

Are you so sure?

Here is an article from 2006 done by an independent source.

Readers In Poll Say ‘No’ to Winnipesaukee Speed Limits
Manchester — October 1, 2006 — Keep Lake Winnipesaukee free of speed limits for boaters, urged a majority of people responding to a New Hampshire Union Leader Web survey.

“The real issue on Winnipesaukee (or any other body) is that some boaters still choose to operate under the influence of stupidity,” wrote speed-limit opponent Kevin Drew of Milford. “Unfortunately, there is no law against that.”

By nearly a 2-to-1 margin, respondents gave a thumb’s down to a push to convince the state Department of Safety to set a 45 mph speed limit on the state’s largest lake during the day and a 25 mph limit at night. The Legislature already defeated a similar proposal this year. The same petition process was used to set speed limits on Squam Lake about 10 years ago.

Boats passing within 150 feet of each other are required to slow to headway speed, six miles per hour, but often don’t.

Read it here
http://ossipeelake.org/news/2006/10/...-speed-limits/

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Are you so sure?

Here is an article from 2006 done by an independent source.

Readers In Poll Say ‘No’ to Winnipesaukee Speed Limits
Manchester — October 1, 2006 — Keep Lake Winnipesaukee free of speed limits for boaters, urged a majority of people responding to a New Hampshire Union Leader Web survey.

“The real issue on Winnipesaukee (or any other body) is that some boaters still choose to operate under the influence of stupidity,” wrote speed-limit opponent Kevin Drew of Milford. “Unfortunately, there is no law against that.”

By nearly a 2-to-1 margin, respondents gave a thumb’s down to a push to convince the state Department of Safety to set a 45 mph speed limit on the state’s largest lake during the day and a 25 mph limit at night. The Legislature already defeated a similar proposal this year. The same petition process was used to set speed limits on Squam Lake about 10 years ago.

Boats passing within 150 feet of each other are required to slow to headway speed, six miles per hour, but often don’t.

Read it here
http://ossipeelake.org/news/2006/10/...-speed-limits/

I'm not sure an on-line internet survey by a newspaper is an "independent source". It's more like who got the word out to his friends telling them to go post against speed limits.

On www.offshoreonly.com a request was posted with a link asking everyone to go post on the Union Leader survey.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I'm not sure an on-line internet survey by a newspaper is an "independent source". It's more like who got the word out to his friends telling them to go post against speed limits.

On www.offshoreonly.com a request was posted with a link asking everyone to go post on the Union Leader survey.

Who cares? If it is true, the people who voted posted their feelings and voted the way that they felt was right. Why would this be any different that polling people from Manchester that may not even know the lake?

Votes are votes.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Who cares? If it is true, the people who voted posted their feelings and voted the way that they felt was right. Why would this be any different that polling people from Manchester that may not even know the lake?

Votes are votes.

So Votes are Votes. The fact that a high performance boating site sent its members there to post doesn't make a difference?

I think we should do a "Do the Yankees Suck?" survey at Fenway Park. That way we can settle the question at last. After all "votes are votes"!

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

So Votes are Votes. The fact that a high performance boating site sent its members there to post doesn't make a difference?

I think we should do a "Do the Yankees Suck?" survey at Fenway Park. That way we can settle the question at last. After all "votes are votes"!

And having an "independent survey company" with no affiliation or backing to a pro speed limit crowd ask a bunch of people who probably don't know a damn thing about Winnipesaukee is any better?

For the record, the Yankees do suck.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

So Votes are Votes. The fact that a high performance boating site sent its members there to post doesn't make a difference?

I think we should do a "Do the Yankees Suck?" survey at Fenway Park. That way we can settle the question at last. After all "votes are votes"!

Kinda like asking boaters if they think there should be a speed limit?

I like your idea about the Fenway Survey though. I say we do it. I bet the results would be YES!

[chmeeee]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

So Votes are Votes. The fact that a high performance boating site sent its members there to post doesn't make a difference?

I think we should do a "Do the Yankees Suck?" survey at Fenway Park. That way we can settle the question at last. After all "votes are votes"!

While we're at it, why not a survey on lake issues in a city 50 miles from the lake?

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I'm not sure an on-line internet survey by a newspaper is an "independent source". It's more like who got the word out to his friends telling them to go post against speed limits.

On www.offshoreonly.com a request was posted with a link asking everyone to go post on the Union Leader survey.

Is it your point that WinnFABS was not able to do this successfully and thus, you spin the results?!?!?!

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I'm not sure an on-line internet survey by a newspaper is an "independent source". It's more like who got the word out to his friends telling them to go post against speed limits.

On www.offshoreonly.com a request was posted with a link asking everyone to go post on the Union Leader survey.

They spam every survey. Remember, "...delete your cookies and vote again and again..."?

Originally Posted by GWC...

Is it your point that WinnFABS was not able to do this successfully and thus, you spin the results?!?!?!

WinnFABS concerns itself with arriving alive while boating on Lake Winnipesaukee: OSO is concerned about being voted off EVERY lake, and spams EVERY initiative.

Here's a quote of interest:

Join Date: Aug 2003

Location: Boston, Ma

Posts: 1,483

I think i voted too much. It won't let me vote anymore,,,,blank screen

Originally Posted by chmeeee

While we're at it, why not a survey on lake issues in a city 50 miles from the lake?

This thread starts with a topic 2900 miles away on peaceful waters, and just down-river from where kayakers have their kind of fun.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

They spam every survey. Remember, "...delete your cookies and vote again and again..."?


WinnFABS concerns itself with arriving alive while boating on Lake Winnipesaukee: OSO is concerned about being voted off EVERY lake, and spams EVERY initiative.

Here's a quote of interest:
Join Date: Aug 2003

Location: Boston, Ma

Posts: 1,483

I think i voted too much. It won't let me vote anymore,,,,blank screen

So one guys quote on OSO means that all posters on the site vote more than once? Oh, OK.
So winnfabs is concerned with "arriving alive", and I think that is great. But when was the last time that someone did not "arrive alive" due to a high speed accident?

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by chipj29

So one guys quote on OSO means that all posters on the site vote more than once? Oh, OK.
So winnfabs is concerned with "arriving alive", and I think that is great. But when was the last time that someone did not "arrive alive" due to a high speed accident?

Last summer on Long Lake.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Last summer on Long Lake.

That's right - Long Lake in the State of Maine.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

That's right - Long Lake in the State of Maine.

Does Maine have a 150ft safe passage law?

If I post "Bush is an idiot" that is obviously opinion even if I don't specify. Actually that one borders on factual.

I say that as a Registered Republican. GO McCain!!

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Last summer on Long Lake.

I am sorry, I didn't realize winnfabs was concerned with accidents that occur on lakes outside of the state of NH.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by chipj29

I am sorry, I didn't realize winnfabs was concerned with accidents that occur on lakes outside of the state of NH.

1. My answer fit your question perfectly.

2. New Hampshire has no shield of invulnerability that protects boats from fatal accidents. That accident could just as easily have happened on Winnipesaukee.

3. I am not connected with WinnFABS.


Hazelnut-

Can you explain how the accident would have been prevented by a 150' rule?

GO McCain! (one of my clients)

[B R]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

1. My answer fit your question perfectly.

2. New Hampshire has no shield of invulnerability that protects boats from fatal accidents. That accident could just as easily have happened on Winnipesaukee.

3. I am not connected with WinnFABS.


Hazelnut-

Can you explain how the accident would have been prevented by a 150' rule?

GO McCain! (one of my clients)

I'll take a stab at this.

you've previously pointed out that if a law is enacted, that people will simply obey the law without the need for much enforcement. following that logic, the long lake accident would have been prevented by the 150' law simply because the driver of the boat would have had to slow down to head way speed when coming within 150' of shore. no one dies with the 150' law in place on long lake.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by B R

I'll take a stab at this.

you've previously pointed out that if a law is enacted, that people will simply obey the law without the need for much enforcement. following that logic, the long lake accident would have been prevented by the 150' law simply because the driver of the boat would have had to slow down to head way speed when coming within 150' of shore. no one dies with the 150' law in place on long lake.

The GFBL boat in question could not have slowed down as it approached within 150' of the shore.

There was no one on board to slow it down.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

1. My answer fit your question perfectly.

2. New Hampshire has no shield of invulnerability that protects boats from fatal accidents. That accident could just as easily have happened on Winnipesaukee.

3. I am not connected with WinnFABS.


Hazelnut-

Can you explain how the accident would have been prevented by a 150' rule?

GO McCain! (one of my clients)

Yes, you are right, I should have phrased my question to specifically include Winnipesaukee. I should know that I needed to clarify that we are discussing Lake Winnipesaukee, on a website called winnipesaukee.com.
I never said you were connected to winnfabs. APS brought it up in his post, not me. I was replying to him initially.
And yes, that accident could have happened on Winnipesaukee. It could have happened on the Merrimack River. It could have happened on [gasp] Squam Lake. How could it have happened on Squam Lake when they already have a speed limit you ask? Well if one is going to get drunk and fire up their boat, they could theoretically do it anywhere. Even GFBLs come on trailers.

But it didn't happen in any of those places. It happened on Long Lake. In the beautiful state of Maine.

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Can you explain how the accident (on Long Lake) would have been prevented by a 150' rule?

By the same token, can you explain how that accident would/could have been prevented by a 45 MPH speed limit (or 25 MPH, if it happened at night, I don't know if it did)?? You're assuming that every drunk boater will still observe a speed limit, even in an inebriated condition!! They don't on land, in their car, why would you expect anything different on water in a boat??


Also, if there was no one IN his boat and the boat continued on to crash onshore, he obviously didn't avail himself of the kill switch lanyard included on most performance boats. I'll presume that's another bad choice considering his inebriated condition.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Wolfeboro_Baja

By the same token, can you explain how that accident would/could have been prevented by a 45 MPH speed limit (or 25 MPH, if it happened at night, I don't know if it did)?? You're assuming that every drunk boater will still observe a speed limit, even in an inebriated condition!! They don't on land, in their car, why would you expect anything different on water in a boat??


Also, if there was no one IN his boat and the boat continued on to crash onshore, he obviously didn't avail himself of the kill switch lanyard included on most performance boats. I'll presume that's another bad choice considering his inebriated condition.

The opposition often makes asinine statements like "a speed limit is unnecessary because there are no high speed accidents". The Long Lake accident is proof otherwise, even if a speed limit could not have prevented it.

However the accident it question MIGHT have been prevented by a speed limit. The operator brought the boat up from Massachusetts. If Long Lake had a speed limit he MAY have gone elsewhere. Although a speed limit MIGHT keep high speed boats off of a lake, a horsepower limit almost certainly would have.

A central point that keeps falling on deaf ears is that a boat that is not ON the lake can't be involved in an accident.


Parrothead-

If you move to a place just outside of a no-wake-zone you will learn about GFBLs and wake. On plane they may have a reasonable wake. However when they are starting up they have as big a wake as any boat on the lake. All that horsepower has to go somewhere. I'm sure good operators can lessen these effects. But most do not.

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

The opposition often makes asinine statements like "a speed limit is unnecessary because there are no high speed accidents". The Long Lake accident is proof otherwise, even if a speed limit could not have prevented it.

But, as has been pointed out SEVERAL times, Long Lake is not the subject of discussion here; Lake Winnipesaukee and the speed limit law which will affect everyone that boats on it is the subject!! I don't care what Long Lake has or doesn't have for laws because it has no direct impact on Lake Winnipesaukee. I feel bad for any innocent person that is injured by an idiot boater but what happens on Long Lake is of no concern to me as far as HB-847 goes!

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

If you move to a place just outside of a no-wake-zone you will learn about GFBLs and wake. On plane they may have a reasonable wake. However when they are starting up they have as big a wake as any boat on the lake. All that horsepower has to go somewhere. I'm sure good operators can lessen these effects. But most do not.

That's true of ANY boat with a planing hull, not just performance boats. Sure, when transitioning from headway speed to planing speed, an 18 ft boat might make a slightly smaller wake compared to my 25 ft, which might be a little smaller than a 35 ft, and so on and so on but every boat with a planing hull will make a larger wake while they are in transition compared to the same boat AT headway or ON plane, it's inevitable!!

GEE, we might just as well ban ALL powerboats from the lake!! But then, how would all the island dwellers get to their respective islands?? Don't bother, I know.......rowboats. I'm sure they'll all love that.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

"...However when they are starting up they have as big a wake as any boat on the lake...I'm sure good operators can lessen these effects. But most do not..."

Meaning, it is possible to "eliminate ignorant behavior through education?"

Originally Posted by parrothead

"...I can't get my head around how performance boats can cause more wake damage than other boats..."

Start with 4½ tons.

Originally Posted by chipj29

"...And yes, that accident could have happened on Winnipesaukee. It could have happened on the Merrimack River. It could have happened on [gasp] Squam Lake...But it didn't happen in any of those places. It happened on Long Lake. In the beautiful state of Maine.

and...

Originally Posted by chipj29

I am sorry, I didn't realize winnfabs was concerned with accidents that occur on lakes outside of the state of NH.

and...

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

That's right - Long Lake in the State of Maine.

Senators vote on laws that affect case law produced by the Supreme Court of New Hampshire. Here's 504,000 reasons New Hampshire Senators must consider high-speed crashes from other jurisdictions.

Originally Posted by chipj29

"...So one guys quote on OSO means that all posters on the site vote more than once? Oh, OK..."

Well, if OK means OK, then here's some more proof of multiple voting.

I had previously chosen a spam-voter from Boston, as he would also likely spam any on-line poll for unlimited speeds on New Hampshire's inland protected waters.

Here they go:

With as many memebers (sic) as we have here, certainly we can change those results

Go vote

The power of *** we are up by a significant margine. (sic)
Dont worry ****, just keep this thread rocking.

Voted as well several times. It's 53%, NO.

Come on guys lets stick together and scew (sic) the hell out of this poll.

voted several times -- NO. Check out the poll numbers now. ZGood (sic) luck

Vote up, everyone! We don't need any more negative publicity regarding this matter. We certainly don't need ignorant non-boaters taking polls like this away from us.

[ ]

The power of the board must be kicking in. We are up from 23% to 35% against speed limits.

I just gave us about a 60-70 NO votes and it will now not register any more of my votes.

Point is....when you make noise, people will listen. Keep voting...

I guess we are making a difference 1050 No / 540 Yes !!

I bet you won't here (sic) about this poll again!

Yeah, I'd saw we swayed that poll back in the right direction

Today speed limits. Tomorrow....

No, submit, close the box, No, submit, close the box. I took it from 640 to over 700 then it stopped counting my votes.

Speed wins!

Should there be a speed limit for boaters...?
no: 2179 votes
yes: 688 votes

Group hug..............................

I use History, whereas BI uses Logic...

Opponents seem stuck in the same arguments with BI, and may just not want to read what I'm finding in History; for example, did you see the on-line post on "I drove drunk" by the creator of the "A.I.S." condition?

[Excalibur]

I will find it funny to see all the small pleasure boats being pulled over around and after sunset for going over the 25 mph speed limit.

Then there will be the 30 foot plus boats not being able to plane and making a huge wake..

We may even see a few boats with out running lights going along with night vision goggles. My spot light has pissed a few off in the past...

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

If you stop analyzing and comparing everything I say with a microscope you will not have these problems. You are comparing every post in hopes of catching me in a lie. You will NEVER catch me in a lie because I am giving you my honest opinions.
There are no inconsistencies in the posts you quote, you are looking for what is not there, and jumping on nothing at all.
I have NO IDEA what your point is about those three examples in bold type. Every word is absolute truth!

WOW! I've seen it all now. So we are supposed to just accept that all of your opinions are fact? HA. Someone has a Megalomaniac complex.

Bear Islander, if you go and post your thoughts on an open forum you are opening yourself up to analysis and criticism. ESPECIALLY in a highly debated topic forum. Also, it is not inconsistencies that I am looking for. You posted opinions that you claim are facts. Your opinions are most certainly not factual. I won't use the word lie but you have stretched the truth beyond reason. So if you need me to further explain why I bold typed those latest whoppers I will.

The few that own these expensive, highly polluting, global warming, gas hogs, fly around the lake at speeds up to 130 mph...

S T R E T C H. Prove it. Where are the 130mph TERRORIZING family boaters. Prove it. Which boats on the lake are REALLY causing the most pollution and causing "Global Warming."

Then you yourself originally blamed High Performance boats for killing baby loons in this statement:

They [Performance Boats] are coming to Winnipesaukee because the are being regulated off other lakes. As this trend continues their numbers will grow. Their wakes kill loons, and erode the shore.

However when pushed and questioned you changed your statement to this:

Big wakes, especially when the lake is high in the spring can destroy loon nests or wash out the eggs. The bigger cruisers can cause huge wakes. They are not "just as capable" they are "far more capable", and far more likely.

So which is Bear Islander? Who is killing the baby loons?

Why do I even raise the issue? It goes right back to the word of the day. Credibility. Opinions are one thing but you sling around these "facts" and expect everyone to believe them. I ain't buyin' it sorry.

Little known fact: Go back and search the old forum. I once raised the issue of having a Speed Limit. Yup, surprise, surprise, I was once an undecided, leaning towards a limit. Over the years I would read these forums and I became convinced otherwise due to the CREDIBLE posts by the opposition. I was also driven to this viewpoint by rants from the proponents, who I felt were disingenuous in their motives. You make some of the strongest cases every day as to why I do NOT support a speed limit. In other words I feel that you hurt the position rather than help it. Just my opinion though.

[Bear Islander]

Thanks, now at least I know what you are getting at.

ALL high horsepower boats create big wakes, GFBL and cabin cruisers. They BOTH kill loons and pollute the lake. They belong on the ocean, not Lake Winnipesaukee.

See, there wasn't any discrepancy. Just you looking for one.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

ALL high horsepower boats create big wakes, GFBL and cabin cruisers. They BOTH kill loons and pollute the lake. They belong on the ocean, not Lake Winnipesaukee.

.

Look at the size of this 70 mph wake. I haven't seen anything that big since "The Perfect Storm"

[codeman671]

Here is a monster wake coming off a 30' twin engine 600hp gas guzzling shoreline eroding loon killing (8500lb dry weight) bowrider at 58mph. I can really see the concern this wake would cause... :rolleye1

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Here is a monster wake coming off a 30' twin engine 600hp gas guzzling shoreline eroding loon killing (8500lb dry weight) bowrider at 58mph. I can really see the concern this wake would cause...

298SS, right? Nice riding, great looking, nicely priced, and often overlooked boat. A friend of mine that's been in the industry for 45 years told me that it has the finest riding hull of any 30 footer he's ever been aboard. He's on his second Monterrey, a 330.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Dave R

298SS, right? Nice riding, great looking, nicely priced, and often overlooked boat. A friend of mine that's been in the industry for 45 years told me that it has the finest riding hull of any 30 footer he's ever been aboard. He's on his second Monterrey, a 330.

You got it! Great boat. I love the 330SY, just more boat than I need. If I did not have a house on the water that would be my choice.

For comparison, here is what 18mph looks like in a 22' bowrider with 260hp and no ballast. This one is a Rinker 226 R1. Which one looks like the loon killer? Cal, got any extra BBQ sauce?

[Rattlesnake Guy]

If you have ever seen the waves that mother nature whips up several times a year and believe that boat wakes kill loons it is hard to imagine that any of them could possibly survive.

If we could just figure out how to disguise boat wakes to look like little natural waves.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

"...If we could just figure out how to disguise boat wakes to look like little natural waves..."

Loons select nest sites that are free of Mother Nature's biggest waves; unfortunately, mankind creates its own tsunamis for these birds.

Originally Posted by Airwaves

http://www.snopes.com/photos/boats/drugrunner.asp

Snopes says I'm not "pushing" anything. It's a drug-running boat—just more stealthy than the usual replica drug-boat of the average Winnipesaukee cowboy.

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

"...ALL high horsepower boats create big wakes...".

NorTech, capable of 130-MPH on Winnipesaukee, is a tunnel hull design: it has "high horsepower".

It is similar to the tunnel hull boat that passed me at about 110-MPH (too close to my dock) and a Hobie (too close to the Hobie, which had five young girls on it).

It was remarkable to see the water left with no wake at all! Tunnel hulls ride on a cushion of air, unlike most other designs.

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

"...They BOTH kill loons and pollute the lake..."

1) Loon nestlings are not necessarily the victims of excess speed on the lake.

Like the endangered manatee elsewhere or the not-so-endangered diver at Winnipesaukee, Loons are exposed to excessive speedsters when surfacing for air.

2) How can a polluter with 2000 horsepower can be compared to one with 20 horsepower? The volume of fresh air converted to smoke is far greater with big engines. (For anyone nearby or downwind—particularly on a calm day—or near one idling at a dock or restaurant).

3) If any horsepower-restriction approach is worthwhile for Winnipesaukee, a NASCAR solution would be more efficient: restrict the air-intake diameter.

However, a speed limit is easier to monitor (by cellphone-equipped boater-victims) and enforce (by officers), particularly at night.

[Orion]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

If you have ever seen the waves that mother nature whips up several times a year and believe that boat wakes kill loons it is hard to imagine that any of them could possibly survive.

If we could just figure out how to disguise boat wakes to look like little natural waves.

Just one point, not pro or con speed limits, but to clarify the impact of big wakes. Natural waves can be bigger than most wakes, but they occur in the same areas of the lake for the most part. It takes a long reach for the wind to wip up the big waves, as Rattlesnake Island dwellers (north side) well know. The problem is when the unnatural waves are generated in areas that loons choose to nest in which are protected inlets that don't get these natural waves because the wind doesn't have the long stretch of water to whip them up.

[Mashugana]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

If you stop analyzing and comparing everything I say with a microscope you will not have these problems. You are comparing every post in hopes of catching me in a lie. You will NEVER catch me in a lie because I am giving you my honest opinions.

Bear Islander. You are the only one who knows if you are giving us your honest opinions or not. We may not agree with your opinions or we can point out the fallacy in your opinions but they are YOUR opinions. I don't think anyone can argue that point.

Readers should examine everything you say because you also post what you claim to be facts not only your opinions. Some of us believe that your facts (or should I say opinions) are not always accurate. Sometimes it appears like your "opinion" changes. Of course you have the right to change your mind but you can not change facts. You can twist them. You just do not like it when contradictions of your facts, or should I say opinions, are pointed out.

You can lie about facts.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Mashugana

Bear Islander. You are the only one who knows if you are giving us your honest opinions or not. We may not agree with your opinions or we can point out the fallacy in your opinions but they are YOUR opinions. I don't think anyone can argue that point.

Readers should examine everything you say because you also post what you claim to be facts not only your opinions. Some of us believe that your facts (or should I say opinions) are not always accurate. Sometimes it appears like your "opinion" changes. Of course you have the right to change your mind but you can not change facts. You can twist them. You just do not like it when contradictions of your facts, or should I say opinions, are pointed out.

You can lie about facts.

I really don't think I claim opinions to be facts. Perhaps I should be more careful to add "in my opinion", however in most cases I think the context does this already. If I post "Bush is an idiot" that is obviously opinion even if I don't specify. It could be that a critical reader is finding fault where none exists.

My opinions on the subjects of boats, speed and horsepower have not changed in years. Any evidence to the contrary is either my fault in not expressing myself well, or the readers fault in over analyzing what I say. Recently Hazelnut thought I was being inconsistent because in one post I claimed cabin cruisers were killing loons, and in another post I claimed GFBLs were killing loons. He made quite a thing about it not realizing the (to me) obvious answer that both are true.

Do you go over the posts of speed limit opponents as carefully as you go over mine? Are you as quick to find "inconsistencies"? Do you make as big a deal out of any perceived error?

I think there is a natural human tendency to think that those that agree with us must be telling the truth, and those that disagree with us must be lying.