Life after speed limits

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Interesting theory but statistically flawed...see my previous post...if you want a valid, statistically neutral opinion about alcohol use in this country, don't go to a temperence meeting or to your local bar. If you want the same for speed limits, don't go to this forum or to a Winnfabs meeting

If this forum were entirely filled with members who oppose speed limits, then you'd have a valid point. But it is not. It is a forum comprised of members of the Lakes Region and surrounding commumities, so your comparisons and metaphors are illogical and false.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by Ryan

If this forum were entirely filled with members who oppose speed limits, then you'd have a valid point. But it is not. It is a forum comprised of members of the Lakes Region and surrounding commumities, so your comparisons and metaphors are illogical and false.

Ryan please see my post from 4:05 PM...a poll derived entirely from a single forum violates all accepted basic tenets and fundamentals of statistics, polling and sampling error. Any statitition or pollster will tell you a poll of only this forum would have zero validity.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Ryan please see my post from 4:05 PM...a poll derived entirely from a single forum violates all accepted basic tenets and fundamentals of statistics, polling and sampling error. Any statitition or pollster will tell you a poll of only this forum would have zero validity.

Since we're just going to reference prior posts, please see Wolfboro Baja's post from above.

Unfortunately, this has been hashed out over and over again, and you're not going to win in this crowd.

So, let's move on to our 0.29% of reckless boaters that are going to be scooped up and moved off the lake in 2009!!!!

The thoughts of mass safety are almost palpable!!!!

[Turtle Boy]

[QUOTE=Ryan;70966]Since we're just going to reference prior posts, please see Wolfboro Baja's post from above.

Unfortunately, this has been hashed out over and over again, and you're not going to win in this crowd.

At last, something we can both agree upon.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by Ryan

The thoughts of mass safety are almost palpable!!!!

I'm not sure about the thoughts of mass safety being palpable but the thoughts of mass tranquility are very palpable.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Ryan please see my post from 4:05 PM...a poll derived entirely from a single forum violates all accepted basic tenets and fundamentals of statistics, polling and sampling error. Any statitition or pollster will tell you a poll of only this forum would have zero validity.

I've read all your posts today so please don't ask me to read them again. Ok so from your posts you seem intelligent enough to realize that your analogy of polling a bar for alcohol laws is ludicrous and silly. Alcoholism affects millions, actually just about everyone. Boating on this lake affects those who boat on this lake. Polling people in Manchester who do not use this lake or do not intend to use this lake is, in one succinct word stupid. Polling a website dedicated to this lake and the users of this lake carries far more validity IMO. Please tell me, without using metaphor, how and why you disagree with this. Keep in mind The Lake Winnipesaukee Forum is read by, posted on and frequented by lovers and users of Lake Winnipesaukee. Boaters, Kayakers, Waterskiers, Swimmers, Sailors, Residents, Vacationers, etc. etc. I would argue that this site directly reflects a cross section of the make up of the users of this lake. So are you suggesting that only the Speed Limit opponents are the ones who post on this site? I suggest that based on the poll done here and all of the discussion here that this forum, again a direct cross section of the populous of the lake, is largely against a speed limit. So why is it that the non-users of this lake are telling the users of this lake how we should use our lake?

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

I would argue that this site directly reflects a cross section of the make up of the users of this lake.

Do you have any objective data to this point or is it just your opinion? Again, any statitician or pollster would agree that a poll from a single forum like this has zero validity. How about if we polled members of the Lake's Region Conservation Trust or NH Lakes Assoc.? Their results would be equally biased. Why...because people of like opinions tend to belong to forums reflecting their views.

So, that being said, I've read in these pages that our Reps. and Senators are "hacks" that should be voted out of office, a poll of NH voters asking what they feel is right for their lakes has no relevence, and seen rather vicious attacks to anyone with dissenting opinions contrary to those prevailing on this site. Yet the bill passed despite the, what was it, 85 % of people on this forum's poll who feel a speed limit is unnecessary? Maybe it's a great big conspiracy???

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Do you have any objective data to this point or is it just your opinion? Again, any statitician or pollster would agree that a poll from a single forum like this has zero validity. How about if we polled members of the Lake's Region Conservation Trust or NH Lakes Assoc.? Their results would be equally biased. Why...because people of like opinions tend to belong to forums reflecting their views.

So, that being said, I've read in these pages that our Reps. and Senators are "hacks" that should be voted out of office, a poll of NH voters asking what they feel is right for their lakes has no relevence, and seen rather vicious attacks to anyone with dissenting opinions contrary to those prevailing on this site. Yet the bill passed despite the, what was it, 85 % of people on this forum's poll who feel a speed limit is unnecessary? Maybe it's a great big conspiracy???

Originally Posted by Ryan

Please see Wolfboro Baja's post from above.

Apparently, you have not read much into these pages, as just as recently as Monday, there was a discussion surrounding some of the Op Ed pieces published by the pro speed limit force. I suggest you take a look at that discussion before you start tossing around "conspiracy" theories...

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by Ryan

Apparently, you have not read much into these pages, as just as recently as Monday, there was a discussion surrounding some of the Op Ed pieces published by the pro speed limit force. I suggest you take a look at that discussion before you start tossing around "conspiracy" theories...

yes indeed I have read the trashing of Sandy Helve articles and that now even letters to the editor need to have annotated references. Oh well, if you don't like the message, attack the messenger.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

yes indeed I have read the trashing of Sandy Helve articles and that now even letters to the editor need to have annotated references. Oh well, if you don't like the message, attack the messenger.

The debate was over the questionable content in her op ed piece.

Her background came into question well after.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

yes indeed I have read the trashing of Sandy Helve articles and that now even letters to the editor need to have annotated references. Oh well, if you don't like the message, attack the messenger.

And Global Warming gonna get you before Al or Speedo GFBL does.


Boooooo


Just think, Winni will be part of the ocean, and the boats will get larger and faster. Kinda skeery isn't it?

[ITD]

Hmmm, Turtle Boy has his first 13 posts in 7 hours all looking to pick a fight. I wouldn't go as far as to call him a troll, but he is pretty close. As soon as I can figure out that ignore feature, I think I'll make use of it.

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

One of the problems I have with Evenstar and some of the other pro 45/25 speed limit crusaders is their constant cry about the alleged Wild West atmosphere of boaters here. They claim reckless UNLIMITED SPEED is making our lake unsafe. They keep pushing the scary misleading concept of Unlimited Speeds by boaters. The facts have been presented numerous times that clearly show that there are laws in place making it illegal to boat unsafely. Unreasonable speeds are unsafe. Reasonable and safe speeds vary depending on the day, the season, the weather, the conditions and the traffic. There are already laws regarding reasonable, safe speeds on the lake.

Originally Posted by ITD

Hmmm, Turtle Boy has his first 13 posts in 7 hours all looking to pick a fight. I wouldn't go as far as to call him a troll, but he is pretty close. As soon as I can figure out that ignore feature, I think I'll make use of it.

Sorry to disagree with you ITD, especially in this thread, but I believe you are wrong. Just plain wrong ! I don't think that our two new-this-month members are trolling. We are all entitled to our opinions and in my opinion I'd say they were FLOODING.

I almost gave up wading through all the messages in this thread today that came from just 2 people. I had a few items to address to Evenstar regarding her question to me but I'll have to wait until my head stops spinning from all of todays messages. while I was writing this several other exchanges already took place. Whew!

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que

One of the problems I have with Evenstar and some of the other pro 45/25 speed limit crusaders is their constant cry about the alleged Wild West atmosphere of boaters here. They claim reckless UNLIMITED SPEED is making our lake unsafe. They keep pushing the scary misleading concept of Unlimited Speeds by boaters. The facts have been presented numerous times that clearly show that there are laws in place making it illegal to boat unsafely. Unreasonable speeds are unsafe. Reasonable and safe speeds vary depending on the day, the season, the weather, the conditions and the traffic. There are already laws regarding reasonable, safe speeds on the lake.



Sorry to disagree with you ITD, especially in this thread, but I believe you are wrong. Just plain wrong ! I don't think that our two new-this-month members are trolling. We are all entitled to our opinions and in my opinion I'd say they were FLOODING.

I almost gave up wading through all the messages in this thread today that came from just 2 people. I had a few items to address to Evenstar regarding her question to me but I'll have to wait until my head stops spinning from all of todays messages. while I was writing this several other exchanges already took place. Whew!

Again, if flooding means holding people accountable for their statements expressed on this forum...guilty as charged. And as before , this forum is not representative of the Winni boating population in general. So, goodnight, and slow down...maybe you'll see a turtle or two.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que

There are already laws regarding reasonable, safe speeds on the lake.

Again with this lie! Give it a rest!



If you can't attack the message, attack the messenger.... Or say that he is flooding or trolling.



Do some of you people really think the poll on this forum has any kind of validity? I thought you were kidding, but now I think some of you are so deluded you think it means something. Its on a boating forum!!! Plus the only people left here are the few (the very few) that are against speed limits, and a couple of die hards that refuse to be run of by the bad manners of the need for speed crowd.

[Skipper]

I am sick of constantly reading unsubstantiated claims and people yelling LIE. How will they misdirect? Which way will they spin? How many people have to prove that safe speed laws are on the books.

Originally Posted by by Skipper of the Sea Que

There are already laws regarding reasonable, safe speeds on the lake.

The zealous proponents of HB847 want everyone to believe that there are no speed regulations. Unlimited speed cowboys threaten safety of the young, frail, timid and peaceful. We must restrain these renegades and protect the public. What drivel. HB847 supporters like Islander often respond to the safe speed requirements that are already in place like this:

Originally Posted by Islander

Again with this lie! Give it a rest!

If you can't attack the message, attack the messenger.... Or say that he is flooding or trolling.

Many have shown that safe speeds are the law. The other Skipper documented it well with attributable quotes HERE and more good reading HERE. Revisit those posts to refresh your memories about speed and the law.

Islander demonstrates what he says. If you can't attack the message, attack the messenger. That is just what he did to the Skipper of Sea Que.

On another issue:

Originally Posted by Islander

Do some of you people really think the poll on this forum has any kind of validity?

The poll was skewed early on due to campaigning. Voting was cut off before a good sample was taken. You obviously did not read the purpose of the poll or the comments by the originator of that poll.

Originally Posted by Islander

Its on a boating forum!!! Plus the only people left here are the few (the very few) that are against speed limits, and a couple of die hards that refuse to be run of by the bad manners of the need for speed crowd.

The HB847 is about new speed limits on the lake. That sounds like a subject for a boating forum. Kayaks are boats. Swimmers and environmentalists may not be.

You talk about bad manners. Ive seen it from both camps but more from the pro side.

Then you lump all those opposed to HB847 with a need for speed crowd. The vast majority of those opposed to the bill are not speed demons. I do not go fast nor boat near the proposed limits. I do know where my limits are regarding Bull Stuff though. I've seen more than enough to force me to make a rare post.

Education not creation. No need to create new laws for speed. Educate and enforce what we have.

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

yes indeed I have read the trashing of Sandy Helve articles and that now even letters to the editor need to have annotated references. Oh well, if you don't like the message, attack the messenger.

Yo Turtle Boy,

If the proponents did not make up "facts", no one would question the source of their numbers. However, this whole issue of 'speed limits needed to improve safety on the lake' is a "house of cards". That is why knowledgeable people question Winnfabs "facts". In almost every case, the "facts" have been fiction.

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time! (This is not an original statement, but I do not remember who said it first.) When I see, read or hear something that I know is untrue or a big stretch of the facts, I ask questions. I am sure that is what the others are doing as well. That is what knowledgeable folks should be doing.

I hope this explains the behavior. No one is attacking any messenger, but they have every right to seek the truth.

R2B

[Jeti]

This law has been a big waste of time and is almost impossible to enforce. Lets be real here people.. We live in a state where huge SUVs drive inches from Massive Walmart Eighteen wheelers doing Eighty mile per hour.. Legally......... For gods sake, Now they want a forty five mile limit on open water...

Pass the Weed Law, do something useless state reps.......

Waste of tax payers money.. in my opinion...

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Maybe it's a great big conspiracy???

Then, again, perhaps someone is fine-tuning their spin skills, in preparation for the November election spinathon.

Then, again, perhaps the second string has been called to duty since a certain poster is noticeable absent from the ongoing diatribe.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Do you have any objective data to this point or is it just your opinion? Again, any statitician or pollster would agree that a poll from a single forum like this has zero validity. How about if we polled members of the Lake's Region Conservation Trust or NH Lakes Assoc.? Their results would be equally biased. Why...because people of like opinions tend to belong to forums reflecting their views.

Ummmm yeah it's my opinion. Didn't I make that crystal clear when I said:

I would argue that this site directly reflects a cross section of the make up of the users of this lake.

Did I really need to add the "in my opinion" statement???

So it's pretty obvious that you skimmed my post but you didn't really read it. Why does this poll have Zero validity. Is that YOUR opinion. Point me to the statistician that tells me that the Manchester Poll had more or ANY validity to it. This forum brings LIKE MINDED individuals together. People who LIKE the lake. Not people who like to go fast in fast boats. If you even read one tenth of the posts on this forum you would know that most of the opponents here on this site DO NOT own Go Fast Boats. So much for your theories and cute analogies. I'd say you're back to square one. Good try though.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Ummmm yeah it's my opinion. Didn't I make that crystal clear when I said:

I would argue that this site directly reflects a cross section of the make up of the users of this lake.

Did I really need to add the "in my opinion" statement???

So it's pretty obvious that you skimmed my post but you didn't really read it. Why does this poll have Zero validity. Is that YOUR opinion. Point me to the statistician that tells me that the Manchester Poll had more or ANY validity to it. This forum brings LIKE MINDED individuals together. People who LIKE the lake. Not people who like to go fast in fast boats. If you even read one tenth of the posts on this forum you would know that most of the opponents here on this site DO NOT own Go Fast Boats. So much for your theories and cute analogies. I'd say you're back to square one. Good try though.

All I ask is that you review any basic statistics/polling reference. Boy, they say the Winnfabs crowd is angry and has no sense of humor. Have you considered switching to decaf?