How might the Marine Patrol enforce Speed Limits?

[sky_nh]

To find out how the Marine Patrol will determine who is speeding, my advice is that once the law is in effect, that you speed across the Broads as fast as you can in your gas-guzzling power boat and wait until you get caught. At that point, you will no doubt learn how they intend to catch boaters breaking the speed limit. Perhaps when you contest your fine in court, there will be other details that you will learn about.

Similarly, when the Laconia Police department, stops and fines me for speeding on Route 11, I learn a great deal about the methods they use to determine that I was speeding. It is a wonderful, if not expensive, learning experience.

I can't believe you guys are asking these questions! How about not speeding?

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by sky_nh

I can't believe you guys are asking these questions! How about not speeding?

I bet most of the responders on this thread don't typically travel faster than 30 MPH in boats.

[jrc]

Realistically, the MP will have to set up radar speed traps just like the land based police do. They will be forced to do this politically, the people that run the MP wil not risk their careers by not visibly enforcing a new law.

Now the MP are not stupid, and what they don't know about the speed traps, they can learn from other NH LEOs. They will set up the traps in spots where they can get a clear radar shot at offending boats and where they will find offending boats. For politcal reasons they will set them up in areas where people complain about fast boats. They don't really care if going fast in that area is dangerous. Look at where land based speed traps are, usually in places where we drivers feel that it's safe to go above the posted speed.

They will give out tickets, they have to. If this Safety boss doesn't his replacement will. Now, will they hold up in court? The MP really doesn't care. As someone said the process is part of the punishment. You have to take time off from work to fight this. At first everyone will fight them and maybe break the system, but eventually a lot of people will just send in the money.

Here is the real question, will they ever see a boat going faster than 45 MPH?

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by jrc

At first everyone will fight them and maybe break the system, but eventually a lot of people will just send in the money.

Did you forget the part about points?

Seems some politicans decided to provide a reason to go to court...

[B R]

Originally Posted by sky_nh

I can't believe you guys are asking these questions! How about not speeding?

I'll be testing the enforceability of this law as soon as possible. I don't believe these tickets have a chance of holding up in court.

One way this thing dies in two years is if it adds too many court costs and it's proven over and over again that the law cannot be enforced. The other is voting out the Senators who voted for this law (See "Payback Time" thread)

[Aquadeziac]

Who says you have to look on the water for speed traps? There were two instances in the recent past where cars were clocked speeding.....one at 135 MPH,,,FROM THE AIR!! If that Cessenna can track the speed of a car at 10,000 ft up and it stands up in court, do you really think it won't work on the water? I can see it now.....you think youre soooo cool, going soooo fast, but the MP is at your destination before you are with a printout of your speed and an 8 X 10 glossy to boot! Then we will watch your dream team flush your wallet with one hand while slapping you on the back with the other telling you "We got'em right where we want them now, you'll be winning any day now, not much longer, we're wearin' 'em down, only a few hundred more dollars"
I just don't understand why some people just refuse to believe the technology is out there. Just because you don't understand it, it must not exist. Thats elementary school mentality.
Just look at some of the technology you do believe in and ask yourself if you would have believed 25 years ago that this would be possible in 25 years.
I personally am looking forward to sitting back and watching the first one that gets nailed next year.

[jrc]

You do realize that airborne speed measurement rely on lines painted in the breakdown lane and stopwatches? not really high tech.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Originally Posted by jrc

You do realize that airborne speed measurement rely on lines painted in the breakdown lane and stopwatches? not really high tech.

Saw them painting lines every 1/4 mile the other day. Special paint from 3M sticks to the water.....

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

Saw them painting lines every 1/4 mile the other day. Special paint from 3M sticks to the water.....

Only you!

That was the best laugh I've had all day....thanks!

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Aquadeziac
Who says you have to look on the water for speed traps? There were two instances in the recent past where cars were clocked speeding.....one at 135 MPH,,,FROM THE AIR!! If that Cessenna can track the speed of a car at 10,000 ft up and it stands up in court, do you really think it won't work on the water?

I actually did consider using aircraft as an example of what might stand up in court in my original example, except to my knowledge the NH Marine Patrol does not own either a rotary or fixed wing aircraft and the expense makes it prohibitive so it's not a realistic scenario IMHO.

Originally posted by This'nThat
Hmmmm. A boat measured at 100mph but yet not going in a straight line? Let's do an example. Suppose the boat was at a 30-degree angle off the "straight line"? Then the actual speed of the boat would be 115mph [100/Cosine(30)], meaning that the measurement would actually be an understatement -- much to your advantage if the MP doesn't compensate for the angle.

Much more complex example than I was thinking of, I was just thinking he made a couple of turns, maybe to avoid waves, debris or a marker but the result is the same however we still have the problem about the determination of when the suspect boat enters the start and exits the stop of the measured mile.

So, we have Radar, GPS and Aircraft. All of which will require crews and funding, what else could withstand the burden of proof?

Originally posted by Rattlesnake Guy
Saw them painting lines every 1/4 mile the other day. Special paint from 3M sticks to the water.....

So THAT's what all that yellow is in the water!!!!

[jrc]

You guys are crazy, they will paint the lines on the bottom of the lake. They're just waiting for DES permits.

[Island Lover]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

So, we have Radar, GPS and Aircraft. All of which will require crews and funding, what else could withstand the burden of proof?

You keep forgetting that speed limits are enforced on other lakes in NH. This isn't going to be a problem. Boats will go 5, 10 even 15 over the limit and get away with it. Just like on our highways, and who cares!

If some boat goes around the lake at 75 mph the MP will stop them (with or without Radar) and have a conversation with them. After that conversation the boat will either slow down to a more reasonable speed, or continue to scoff the law. If they continue the second boat stop will be a lot less pleasant. Do you think the MP are going to let someone continue to break the law in an open and in your face manner? Hey, these are cops, you are not going to beat them at their own game! You can piss them off, but in the end, they will win! Plus its not like the highways, you can't disappear or hide, they will find you sooner or later, probably sooner.

And no funding is required. Funding requires an appropriation by the state. The MP budget is not going to be increased because of HB847. An officer taking along a Radar unit while on Patrol and checking a few boat speed is not going to require a major MP shakeup. This just isn't that big a deal.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Island Lover
And no funding is required. Funding requires an appropriation by the state. The MP budget is not going to be increased because of HB847. An officer taking along a Radar unit while on Patrol and checking a few boat speed is not going to require a major MP shakeup. This just isn't that big a deal.

You're right that HB847 does NOT increase funding for the Marine Patrol, but pretty much wrong about everything else.

AN officer isn't just going to throw a radar unit in the boat and check a few boats now and again.

The use of radar requires the operator of the radar unit be certified and the unit calibrated. It also requires a crew of two officers in the boat. Certification costs money, the second officer in the boat costs money, replacing that second officer on another boat costs money, court time costs money. This would be true for every radar post stationed on the lake, one isn't going to do it.

So the first MP boat stops your boat he thinks is going too fast and has a conversation, you continue on your way and run into the second MP boat that was alerted by the first and you're stopped again. Then what? If there was no use of radar, GPS and you were not tracked by aircraft then nothing, that's what. The MP might conduct a safety check looking for violations but as far as a citation for speeding? Not going to happen.

An officer's estimated speed based on what he/she visually observed is not enough for a conviction in a court of law under HB847.

So short of Radar, GPS and Aircraft (all of which will cost additional money) how will the Marine Patrol be able to enforce this law on a 72 square mile lake?

Where speed limits are in force on small lakes it involves prohibiting different types of watercraft and/or limiting horsepower. Not Marine Patrol enforcement.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Where speed limits are in force on small lakes it involves prohibiting different types of watercraft and/or limiting horsepower. Not Marine Patrol enforcement.

Many years ago I was involved with placing a speed limit on a small New Hampshire lake. There were a few violations the first year it was in effect and I called the Marine Patrol. An officer arrived in a car and waited for the boat to return to shore. They didn't speed again.

There is no prohibiting of boat types on smaller lakes. Just speed limits that work.

If someone thinks they are going to operate their boat at 75 mph on Winni and the Marine Patrol will be helpless, then they don't know much about cops.

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Many years ago I was involved with placing a speed limit on a small New Hampshire lake. There were a few violations the first year it was in effect and I called the Marine Patrol. An officer arrived in a car and waited for the boat to return to shore. They didn't speed again.

There is no prohibiting of boat types on smaller lakes. Just speed limits that work.

If someone thinks they are going to operate their boat at 75 mph on Winni and the Marine Patrol will be helpless, then they don't know much about cops.

BI did you have a place on that lake? You seem to be the superman of speed limits on lakes around the globe!!!

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Bear Islander
There is no prohibiting of boat types on smaller lakes. Just speed limits that work.

As shocking as this may sound, I will have to disagree with you on that statement.
I direct your attention to the Marine Patrol link of Restricted Bodies of Water. You will note that it routinely prohibits types of vessels and types of propulsion.

Why your own Squam Lake that has been touted as a model for Winnipesaukee prohibits certain types of vessels!
The document is 20 pages long!

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

BI did you have a place on that lake? You seem to be the superman of speed limits on lakes around the globe!!!

I was the director of a camp for underprivileged children on that lake.

[Airwaves]

Bear Islander, I applaude you for your work as the director of a camp for underprivileged children!

Now, in the context of what we are discussing, what lake are you referencing when you write;

..."Many years ago I was involved with placing a speed limit on a small New Hampshire lake. There were a few violations the first year it was in effect and I called the Marine Patrol. An officer arrived in a car and waited for the boat to return to shore. They didn't speed again.

There is no prohibiting of boat types on smaller lakes. Just speed limits that work."

I would like to see how you were able to eliminate excessive speed (sorry, that doesn't exist without speed limits, right?) without either Marine Patrol support or banning certain types of watercraft?

See my link above to the Marine Patrol Restricted Bodies of Water in NH!

KonaChick seems to know of what lake you speak, so why not share it?

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Bear Islander, I applaude you for your work as the director of a camp for underprivileged children!

Now, in the context of what we are discussing, what lake are you referencing when you write;


I would like to see how you were able to eliminate excessive speed (sorry, that doesn't exist without speed limits, right?) without either Marine Patrol support or banning certain types of watercraft?

See my link above to the Marine Patrol Restricted Bodies of Water in NH!

KonaChick seems to know of what lake you speak, so why not share it?

In my political activist youth, Judd Gregg and I petitioned the Department of safety for restrictions on Sunset Lake in Greenfield. There was a hearing, we presented our case, and won the day. I gave up politics but Judd went on the be a Congressman, Governor and Senator.

The speed limit worked. It still works today. The camp has closed, but the other lake residents want to keep the speed limit.

Sorry, but there is nothing about what happened on Sunset lake that argues against HB847, quite the contrary. I have seen boating speed limits work fist hand.

[Airwaves]

So let me get this straight just so I understand it correctly.

You are comparing the success of "speed limits" and the lack of enforcement of those "speed limits" on a 30 acre pond, to that of Lake Winnipesaukee?

Just to make sure we're talking about the same examples:

Sunset Lake (aka Gould Pond) - Greenfield
SAF-C 402.78 - (a) No person shall operate a motorboat on Sunset Lake in Greenfield at a speed exceeding 10 MPH. However, this restriction shall not apply between 4:30 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. or sunset, whichever occurs first, on Monday through Saturday, both inclusive, and further provided during the restricted hours, motorboats shall not be operated at a speed exceeding 30 MPH.
(b) All waterskiing on Sunset Lake shall be in a counter-clockwise direction during the unlimited hours.

http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Fish...greenfield.pdf
Sunset Lake, Greenfield. 33 acres, NO PUBLIC ACCESS, Residents only, canoe/cartop launch next to beach.

What happens on Sunday, no boats allowed at all or is that when the GFBL boats show up to ski counter clockwise and create a big flushing whirlpool sound?

http://www.winnipesaukee.org/watershed-facts.htm
Lake Winnipesaukee, Surface Water
Lake Winnipesaukee
44,586 acres

So Sunset Lake (Gould Pond) is the benchmark for Lake Winnipesaukee that you keep talking about as a camp director?

No Public Access and still the waterfont owners had to be forced by you (and Judd Gregg) to slow down to something you thought was reasonable?

Is there even that much surface water (33 acres) in the no wake zone near your camp on Bear Island?

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

So let me get this straight just so I understand it correctly.

You are comparing the success of "speed limits" and the lack of enforcement of those "speed limits" on a 30 acre pond, to that of Lake Winnipesaukee?

Just to make sure we're talking about the same examples:


What happens on Sunday, no boats allowed at all or is that when the GFBL boats show up to ski counter clockwise and create a big flushing whirlpool sound?



So Sunset Lake (Gould Pond) is the benchmark for Lake Winnipesaukee that you keep talking about as a camp director?

No Public Access and still the waterfont owners had to be forced by you (and Judd Gregg) to slow down to something you thought was reasonable?

Is there even that much surface water (33 acres) in the no wake zone near your camp on Bear Island?

First. its a lake not a pond, the name it had in antiquity was erroneous. Second. it has public access with two beaches and a launch ramp.

The size of the lake is very small, not a good match for comparison to Winnipesaukee. What can be taken from it is that speed limits can and do work. And that people are, for the most part, law abiding.

The reason I bought it up was to illustrate that even a scofflaw that ignores the limit will change his ways after a law enforcement officer explains the situation to them.

You seem to think the MP will watch impotently while a boat cruises around the lake at 75 mph. That just is not going to happen.

[Hottrucks]

not to be a wise guy or anything but how does a boat that goes 50 mph catch a boat going 75 mph and if they do all I want to know is who is going to get the ticket???? you who may have been ridding in the boat me who may have been driving it or gramma who is on the pourch cooking hot dogs??who may have been out there herself???

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Bear Islander
First. its a lake not a pond, the name it had in antiquity was erroneous. Second. it has public access with two beaches and a launch ramp.

You may classify it as a lake, but to me it's a large swimming hole! You could put 23 of similar size "lakes" onto Bear Island itself!

If there is public access it is apparently news to the New Hampshire Fish and Wildlife folks who make available this map to visitors who want to fish. Note that it clearly says NO PUBLIC ACCESS, RESIDENTS ONLY!

Originally posted by Bear Islander
The size of the lake is very small, not a good match for comparison to Winnipesaukee. What can be taken from it is that speed limits can and do work. And that people are, for the most part, law abiding.

It still leaves a big big question, in a lake that massive...I mean pond that small how is it that you found the NEED to deal with lawmaking rather than just meet with your neighbors and talk it out?

Originally posted by Bear Islander
The reason I bought it up was to illustrate that even a scofflaw that ignores the limit will change his ways after a law enforcement officer explains the situation to them.

Actually you have been very clear that the speed limit bill won't cost money and now we know how you have come to that very erronious conclusion. Didn't cost any money on Gould Pond, right?

Originally posted by Bear Islander
You seem to think the MP will watch impotently while a boat cruises around the lake at 75 mph. That just is not going to happen.

Now to take a quote from any one of a number of posts by Bear Islander. I never said that! What I have said is that the LEGAL BURDEN OF PROOF is on the Marine Patrol, and without the expense of radar, GPS or aircraft tracking the Marine Patrol can NOT MEET THEIR BURDEN OF PROOF and if they can I'd like to know how!

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

You may classify it as a lake, but to me it's a large swimming hole! You could put 23 of similar size "lakes" onto Bear Island itself!

If there is public access it is apparently news to the New Hampshire Fish and Wildlife folks who make available this map to visitors who want to fish. Note that it clearly says NO PUBLIC ACCESS, RESIDENTS ONLY!


It still leaves a big big question, in a lake that massive...I mean pond that small how is it that you found the NEED to deal with lawmaking rather than just meet with your neighbors and talk it out?


Actually you have been very clear that the speed limit bill won't cost money and now we know how you have come to that very erronious conclusion. Didn't cost any money on Gould Pond, right?


Now to take a quote from any one of a number of posts by Bear Islander. I never said that! What I have said is that the LEGAL BURDEN OF PROOF is on the Marine Patrol, and without the expense of radar, GPS or aircraft tracking the Marine Patrol can NOT MEET THEIR BURDEN OF PROOF and if they can I'd like to know how!

You sure know how to take the long way around the barn to make a useless point!

First there is, and has been, a public ramp on Sunset Lake. It is however limited to Greenfield residents.

Second, we didn't have trouble with the lake residents, they were a great bunch of neighbors. It was people that trailered in that caused the problems. In particular the boat from Camp Winamac that trailered in every day and skied for hours. They didn't like to water ski on their own lake because it screwed up their small boating.

Thirdly, they will do it by matching speeds or some other method. Your "they can't stop me" bravado is laughable!