Boating Accident/Death off Diamond Island

[UncleRay]

Originally Posted by NHDOLFAN

Wow. This article shows that someone was drinking. Now, whether the person(s) were impaired is a different story. At what speed would a boat need to be traveling to be on plane? I'm sure that Formula could answer this question. Only time will tell but it does not look good.

According to the tests on this hull, it looks to plane off at about 19/20 mph.

http://www.boattest.com/oem/general-...381#TestResult



If you care to run the math, this will get you close:

Minimum Planing Speed in Knots:

2.3 x ((32.2 x (all up displacement in pounds)^0.333)^0.5)/1.6889

For example, an 18' boat at 2,323.2 pounds (including crew) may plane at 13.902 knots.

The formula has no input for the shape of the hull. It just calculates the speed required to lift 2300 pounds. It also does not indicate how difficult it will be to get the hull to 13.9 knots. However, in my ignorance, I believe it may be somewhat representative. If the boat was surfing down a wave at 13.9 knots, it may very well be planing.

[2Blackdogs]

Looks like Uncle Ray got "called in".

A rule of thumb is that the larger the city, hospital, emergency room, fire department or police force, the more sophisticated the attention to official inquiry. Europe, I'm reading today, has the technology to find fingerprints on anything made of metal, even if it's old or submerged. European laboratories are far better funded than US laboratories.

When an agency has only a handful of annual investigations like this one (or even fewer), it's not going to be sophisticated at all. Worse, the investigation in a tourist-dependent state is subject to fierce political and economic community pressures.

Perhaps "the showing to the door" of Safety Director Dick Flynn will change that impression, but funding to the NHMP is already such a rarity that the radar guns, the radar survey, and officer's radar training were grieved as major expenses. Or so we were told here. The survey itself was widely criticized as unscientific, and suggested a political pressure at work to make the findings "turn out right".

The presence of alcohol evidence has turned this discussion to the real intent of the NHRBA, and that is to perpetuate a party-hardy atmosphere for Winni's cowboys. We haven't heard from the primary proponent of A.I.S. lately, especially with today's potentially embarrassing link to the NHRBA. It's too late to impeach the president of NHRBA now, but it could happen.

I hope you're wrong about the driver behind the wheel. That driver might be the one who cannot speak in defense.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

...
The presence of alcohol evidence has turned this discussion to the real intent of the NHRBA, and that is to perpetuate a party-hardy atmosphere for Winni's cowboys. We haven't heard from the primary proponent of A.I.S. lately, especially with today's potentially embarrassing link to the NHRBA. It's too late to impeach the president of NHRBA now, but it could happen.

I hope you're wrong about the driver behind the wheel. That driver might be the one who cannot speak in defense.

Here you go again...yet one more COMPLETELY uncalled for post.

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Another story:

Jun 24, 10:48 AM EDT
Alcohol may have been involved in NH boat crash

GILFORD, N.H. (AP) -- Investigators are looking into possible criminal charges in a fatal boating accident on New Hampshire's Lake Winnipesaukee last week.

In court documents, the Marine Patrol said it is investigating whether the death of 34-year-old Stephanie Beaudoin, of Meredith, was a negligent homicide.

Court affidavits say a surviving passenger, 34-year-old Nicole Shinopulos, of Burlington, Massachusetts, told investigators she and the two other women on the boat had been drinking before they crashed into Diamond Island around 2:30 a.m. on June 15.

The boat's driver, 34-year-old Erica Blizzard, of Laconia, suffered serious injuries. Blizzard is the president of the New Hampshire Recreational Boaters Association, which has opposed boating speed limits on the lake.

She is in stable condition at Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center in Lebanon.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...06-24-10-48-28
------------------

And, as I posted earlier, the boat was going too fast for the conditions.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by RI Swamp Yankee

And, as I posted earlier, the boat was going too fast for the conditions.

Please don't take this the wrong way:

How fast were they going again? I don't recall reading what the investigators determined their speed to be?

As a general comment, enough with the speculation. We need to let the investigators sort this out before anybody jumps to conclusions.

[COWISLAND NH]

Can we get some hard facts please...like the Marine patrol accident log form last year...if any one wants to point fingers at who had the most accidents and why lets see who they really were. I can not stand the finger pointing at people apposed to the speed limit. SPEED???Let's try someone making a bad judgment....plain and simple folks!

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by Ryan

.. How fast were they going again? I don't recall reading what the investigators determined their speed to be? ...

Correct, it hasn't been determined what the actual number was but whatever it was it was higher than the definition of safe speed. If the actual speed was lower than the safe speed, the operator would have been able to "take proper and effective action to avoid collision".

Safe Speed

A safe speed is a speed less than the maximum at which the operator can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and stop within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

In establishing a safe operating speed, the operator must take into account visibility; traffic density; ability to maneuver the vessel (stopping distance and turning ability); background light at night; proximity of navigational hazards; draft of the vessel; limitations of radar equipment; and the state of wind, sea, and current.

[Airwaves]

Orignally posted by RI Swamp Yankee
Safe Speed

A safe speed is a speed less than the maximum at which the operator can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and stop within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

In establishing a safe operating speed, the operator must take into account visibility; traffic density; ability to maneuver the vessel (stopping distance and turning ability); background light at night; proximity of navigational hazards; draft of the vessel; limitations of radar equipment; and the state of wind, sea, and current.

That would be USCG NAV Rule 6, which doesn't exist in New Hampshire or Lake Winnipesaeukee.

When I offered it up as a compromise to the useless 45/25 speed limit not a single supporter of speed limits went for it...now you're quoting it? Why?

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

That would be USCG NAV Rule 6, which doesn't exist in New Hampshire or Lake Winnipesaeukee.

Also referred to as International Rule 6. There is a watered down version in the NH boating license course, Chapter 3.

3 -Maintain a safe speed.
Safe speed is the speed that ensures you will have ample time to avoid a collision and can stop within an appropriate distance. Safe speed will vary depending on conditions such as wind, water conditions, navigational hazards, visibility, surrounding vessel traffic density, and the maneuverability of your boat or PWC. Always reduce speed and navigate with extreme caution at night and when visibility is restricted.

http://www.boat-ed.com/nh/course/p3-...ringothers.htm

Originally Posted by Airwaves

When I offered it up as a compromise to the useless 45/25 speed limit not a single supporter of speed limits went for it...now you're quoting it? Why?

I avoided that 45/25 "debate" like the plague. The very tragic accident in this thread brought to mind that rule from the course I took LONG ago.

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by Airwaves
When I offered it up as a compromise to the useless 45/25 speed limit not a single supporter of speed limits went for it...now you're quoting it? Why?

Originally Posted by RI Swamp Yankee

I avoided that 45/25 "debate" like the plague. The very tragic accident in this thread brought to mind that rule from the course I took LONG ago.

Iintended to add:
With all the talk about what speed the boat was going and if it was over / under 25 there was a rule that had higher precedence. There does need to be a defined maximum that applies to ideal conditions. The condidions that night were not ideal so rule 6 applies.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by RI Swamp Yankee
The condidions that night were not ideal so rule 6 applies.

Unfortunately Rule 6 does NOT apply because it is not the law in New Hampshire. NH has not adopted it so it does not exist. I think it should, but it does not.

There has been much debate about the NH Boating Rules Guide and actual law and the language is different. The RSA covering what you are talking about deals with Negligent Operation of a boat. (I don't recall the RSA number off the top of my head) but it appears to fall short of Rule 6 which is why I advocated for the adoption of Rule 6 vs HB847. It would have added a tool to the Marine Patrol arsenal that would NOT cost additional money and addressed the safety issue that supporters of HB847 at least initally claimed was their concern.

At this point I agree with sa meredith, this thread is supposed to be for actual information regarding this tragic accident.

I am guilty of hijacking so I will refrain from other thoughts about Rule 6 until we actually know what happened.

If you'd like to start another thread to debate the merits of Rule 6 vs the NH RSA I'd love to take part in that!

AW

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Unfortunately Rule 6 does NOT apply because it is not the law in New Hampshire. NH has not adopted it so it does not exist. ...

Absolutely correct, I worded that badly. I should have said, Rule 6 should apply if you are a prudent boater. All of my boating took place in waters where that rule did apply, seemed like common sense. Same as the paved highway, speed limit may be 65 but when the rain and fog set in a prudent speed may be 45.

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Added note: A version of rule 6 will go into effect 1-1-09 with HB847 (RSA 270)

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by RI Swamp Yankee

Correct, it hasn't been determined what the actual number was but whatever it was it was higher than the definition of safe speed. If the actual speed was lower than the safe speed, the operator would have been able to "take proper and effective action to avoid collision".

Safe Speed

A safe speed is a speed less than the maximum at which the operator can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and stop within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

In establishing a safe operating speed, the operator must take into account visibility; traffic density; ability to maneuver the vessel (stopping distance and turning ability); background light at night; proximity of navigational hazards; draft of the vessel; limitations of radar equipment; and the state of wind, sea, and current.

As usual, let me interject the What If. Drunks don;t generally pay attention to those type of things. Not making a judgement, but it has become the norm for many years of accidents.

[VtSteve]

Well Blackdogs, they are investigating anything and everything, as many assumed. Your constant insinuations, riddled with sarcasm and demeaning language, pretty much put you in the position of an agenda poster. Regardless of the outcome of this accident, most of us could pretty much predict what you'd write for each potential outcome.

One of the chief criticisms in the SL arguments is that many of us have read about numerous accident stories, seen the raw data, and tried to discuss solutions as we both participate in boating and care for ourselves and others. While others have distorted data, misinterpreted it, or even ignored it altogether.

In the end, all that counts is safety and reducing accidents. Something tells me that's not your number one goal here.

[Airwaves]

The AP article that RI Swamp Yankee quotes is based on this article in the Laconia Citizen.

The AP story is heavily editied and the Laconia Citizen article relies exclusively on court documents filed to get various search warrants needed for the investigation.

To restate my point the AP article was based on the Laconia Citizen Article. The Citizen article was based on the reading of court documents. I did not see anywhere in the article where anyone involved in the investigation or accident was actually interviewed for the story.

This comes back to the ongoing reduction in newspaper workforce and the regurgitation of a marginal story as fact by other news organizations and drawing conclusions from it. It's going to get worse friends.

[Newbiesaukee]

Just a question. Is it the case that the bow letters are supposed to be above the rub rail? I am not the most experienced boatman, but this does not seem to be the case. What is the deal?

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

The AP article that RI Swamp Yankee quotes is based on this article in the Laconia Citizen.



This comes back to the ongoing reduction in newspaper workforce and the regurgitation of a marginal story as fact by other news organizations and drawing conclusions from it. It's going to get worse friends.

Whoa....marginal story? Outspoken proponent of "no limits needed" and head of NHRBA crashes boat at 2:30 AM, passenger says they were drinking at Wolftrap, M.P. states they were at planing speed and that beer cans found at scene? That's not marginal. Check out the Union Leader's article(and check out the letters...many NH citizens must view this as a state wide embarrassment).

http://www.theunionleader.com/articl...sh&articleId=1...

think this one over a bit further Airwaves. Very sad.

[HUH]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Whoa....marginal story? Outspoken proponent of "no limits needed" and head of NHRBA crashes boat at 2:30 AM, passenger says they were drinking at Wolftrap, M.P. states they were at planing speed and that beer cans found at scene? That's not marginal. Check out the Union Leader's article(and check out the letters...many NH citizens must view this as a state wide embarrassment).

http://www.theunionleader.com/articl...sh&articleId=1...

think this one over a bit further Airwaves. Very sad.

I would say that its "Ironic" that she was the head of a lobbying group against a boating bill. But the Bill had nothing to do with drinking and the facts are not in as to whether speed was a factor/issue.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Turtle Boy
Whoa....marginal story? Outspoken proponent of "no limits needed" and head of NHRBA crashes boat at 2:30 AM, passenger says they were drinking at Wolftrap, M.P. states they were at planing speed and that beer cans found at scene? That's not marginal.

Yes, the story is marginal in its accuracy.

It was written based entirely on affidavits submitted to the courts in order to get a search warrant and not on any evidence uncovered or conclusions drawn by investigators. Just a routine justification by investigators for permission to search for evidence.

As I pointed out no one, not a single person appears to have been interviewed for the article to even question why the need for some of the items listed in the affidavit.

It appears to be an affidavit submitted by a good investigator looking for permission from the courts to tear the boat appart and not overlook anything but no reporter questioned why this or why that. It's much easier to just get the court documents and write your story based on them without doing any footwork, cheaper too!

Very very very poor reporting and it's regurgitated statewide through AP so it becomes "fact". The "Union Leader" article you provided a link to just proves my point. It is the same Laconia Citizen article under the AP title. The Union Leader did not do their own reporting on the story, just regurgitated a marginally accurate story.

It's going to get worse, and not just with this story unfortunately

[Rinkerfam]

I was half paying attention to WMUR's eleven o'clock broadcast when I thought I heard it stated that the NH Marine Patrol was leaning toward a negligent homicide case with regard to the incident at Diamond Island. Can anyone confirm or dismiss this?

[EricP]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Whoa....marginal story? Outspoken proponent of "no limits needed" and head of NHRBA crashes boat at 2:30 AM, passenger says they were drinking at Wolftrap, M.P. states they were at planing speed and that beer cans found at scene? That's not marginal. Check out the Union Leader's article(and check out the letters...many NH citizens must view this as a state wide embarrassment).

http://www.theunionleader.com/articl...sh&articleId=1...

think this one over a bit further Airwaves. Very sad.

You are exactly the person the press is appealing to. I lost respect for the press many years ago. You still buy into it and believe everything they say is gospel.

[Airwaves]

Orignally posted by Rinkerfam
I was half paying attention to WMUR's eleven o'clock broadcast when I thought I heard it stated that the NH Marine Patrol was leaning toward a negligent homicide case with regard to the incident at Diamond Island. Can anyone confirm or dismiss this?

That was taken from the same Citizen/AP article that I've been talking about as not being very good reporting. In the Citizen article it says

"In support of the search warrant Dunleavy said the department is currently investigating whether a negligent homicide occurred."

So if WMUR reported that the Marine Patrol is leaning toward a negligent homicide case it is further distortion of an initally badly reported, poorly written story.

See how easy it is when you don't do your own work?

[2Blackdogs]

Waterbaby wrote,

No matter how many times I read this, I cannot make it relevant to this thread.

That's because, "You ain't going to learn what you don't want to know"

But that's my fault as well, for using an NHRBA abbreviation repeated most often at this Winni.com forum.

A.I.S. stands for "Alcohol Induced Stupidity", a term much repeated by the NHRBA. Didn't the NHRBA shoot itself in the foot with A.I.S., or what?

I also neglected to include the quotes I was answering. These were:

Big Kahuna's.

It might have been Erica's boat, but who says she was driving? Maybe she was letting someone else drive, that may explain a lot.

A survivor, last described as "incoherent" at the scene, has confessed that everyone on board was drinking alcohol at a Wolfeboro bar scene. The driver was found at the helm. As of this morning, Big Kahuna's quote, therefore, is moot. (Note the correct spelling of moot, Skip. One could learn a lot from OSO's risk-takers, but safety for other boaters, expression of self, spelling, and grammar aren't among those things at OSO).

Wolfetrap may very well sell canned beer, but it's become painfully obvious that a Lake Winnipesaukee "party-hardy" atmosphere prevails among NHRBA officials.

They, in their self-congratulatory and collective stupors, conduct a not-so-stealthy endangerment upon us Winni boaters. Like Littlefield.

Skip wrote,

All Departments in this State utilize neighboring community experts, each County Attorney's Office, the State Attorney General's Office, the NH State Police, the State Police Crime Lab and a long list of private and federal agencies to assist in all levels of evidence gathering and criminal investigation and prosecution.

And that's why Littlefield's prosecution turned out so swell?

Dick Flynn never saw a political pie he wouldn't stick his finger into.

If citizens don't hold the NHMP's feet to the fire in this case, the underfunded and disfunctional regime commanded by the former, mostly invisible, Safety Director will assure that PC will rule the waves instead of reason.

Lt. Dunleavy may not attribute his "shooting star" success to Dick Flynn, but you'll notice that Dunleavy, a personal and influental friend of some here, is being supported in this forum with full public access. That is to say, a politically-supported, bootlicking presence. PC run amok.

This disgraced "Safety Director" managed to throw in one last monkey wrench. You'll recall "The Survey" please.

And Nightwing's.

If LT. Dunleavy said 28mph, then that is what it was.

Ditto for the above. Politically-supported PC run amok.

Now, where are the benefits of a "Rule 6" for Winni in this case?

And my much-criticized "rule of thumb" will have my family going to Boston for any major surgery, and not to Laconia.

In short, I hope this investigation is more thorough than Littlefield's.

[COWISLAND NH]

WOW 2Blackdogs you seem to be very angry. Why not hate the drunk drivers instead of the boaters who go faster then you? To categorize every boater who has a go fast boat as drunken reckless captains is just not right. Both highly publicized accidents that have been discussed on this thread are related to the operator under the influence (speculation). I just can not see your point on justifying a speed limit related to these accidents. Have you every seen a couple of teenagers not paying attention on their jet skies or an overcrowded boat full of excited kids with dad pulling them in a tube....accidents happen...I've seen it 1st hand!

[kthy66]

2Blackdogs you really need to come out of your shell hon and tell us how you really feel...

More info this morning in the Citizen

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...824/-1/CITNEWS

[SIKSUKR]

FATJACK is Back

[Skip]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

FATJACK is Back

You beat me to it.....I hereby nominate you Chief of the Missing Posters Bureau!

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

FATJACK is Back

SS: Does Fat Jack = 2 Black Dogs?

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by kthy66

2Blackdogs you really need to come out of your shell hon and tell us how you really feel...

More info this morning in the Citizen

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...824/-1/CITNEWS

It looks like they did not take samples for 9 hours after the crash. Is it possible to get an accurate reading after that amount of time passes?

I assume they took two samples an hour apart to determine the time but how accurate can that be?

[Jeti]

Originally Posted by 4Fun

It looks like they did not take samples for 9 hours after the crash. Is it possible to get an accurate reading after that amount of time passes?

I assume they took two samples an hour apart to determine the time but how accurate can that be?

Number of units drunk - Number of hours since last drink = Alcohol content

For example: A person drinks 6 pints of an ordinary strength beer (12 units), finishing drinking at 11pm. They start work at 8am the following day. (9 Hours later).

12 Units - 9 hours = 3. In this scenario, the person could still have 3-4 units of alcohol left in their body whilst driving to work the following day - risking both Police prosecution and the safety of others. 3-4 Units will bring most men to the USA legal driving limit of 80mg/dl and 3 units for most women.

[Newbiesaukee]

Although there is some variability, two points on the curve and knowledge of alcohol metabolism, etc. would allow you to extrapolate and come up with an accurate estimate of alcohol blood level at the time of the accident.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by 4Fun

It looks like they did not take samples for 9 hours after the crash. Is it possible to get an accurate reading after that amount of time passes?

I assume they took two samples an hour apart to determine the time but how accurate can that be?

Jeti & Newbi have answered your question correctly. The procedures utilized by the NHMP to obtain the two samples over a fixed time are well established and Court accepted practices.

Once again (hateful diatribes to the contrary) the NHMP appears to be following all accepted protocol in what appears to be a thorough and fair investigation.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Skip

Once again (hateful diatribes to the contrary) the NHMP appears to be following all accepted protocol in what appears to be a thorough and fair investigation.

Well said Skip. The realists know it will be thorough and fair. However, the conspiracy theorists on this forum have already concluded that the results of the investigation (should said results not determine the outcome that said theorists hope for), will have been fixed. Atrocious.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Well said Skip. The realists know it will be thorough and fair. However, the conspiracy theorists on this forum have already concluded that the results of the investigation (should said results not determine the outcome that said theorists hope for), will have been fixed. Atrocious.

They pretty much have to, they're only concerned about one issue, and it's become very apparent that their only real focus is a certain boating niche. Since the Littlefield accident is usually part of every heated discussion by a couple of these "concerned citizens", I can only think that that accident blinded them permanently. Speed wasn't a biggie in that case, alcohol was. The fact that he was piloting a Baja made their eyes permanently red whenever they see a GF boat. Regardless of all the boating accidents that happen resulting from alcohol, the only dangerous boaters in their mind are the GF crowd. It's more of a vendetta for a select group, some others just joined because it seemed like the thing to do. But when you talk about enforcement and existing laws being broken, they all clam right up.

There are some very good and decent people on board that support the speed limits. There are a couple of real flakes that appear to be blinded by hate. Reason be darned. Their comments from the beginning of this developing story are downright sickening.

[Steveo]

The reports stated that she was traveling southeast headed toward Sleepers. I'm trying to understand two things, First, where on the island did she hit. Was she attempting to go between Diamond and Rattlesnake and hit on the north side of the island or was she attempting to go betwen Diamond and the mainland and hit the west side. And second, was she coming from Wolfeboro (Wolfetrap) or from Pentleton Beach at the time.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Steveo

The reports stated that she was traveling southeast headed toward Sleepers. I'm trying to understand two things, First, where on the island did she hit. Was she attempting to go between Diamond and Rattlesnake and hit on the north side of the island or was she attempting to go betwen Diamond and the mainland and hit the west side. And second, was she coming from Wolfeboro (Wolfetrap) or from Pentleton Beach at the time.

I believe they had been in Wolfeboro earlier, gone to Pendleton, and were heading south back to Sleepers. I think that as you are heading towards the northern end of Diamond, she hit on the left side of Dr. Rock's log cabin a few hundred feet down. I have not been to the scene as I see no reason to, but have been to Dr. Rock's place before.

[NASCARNH]

Originally Posted by Steveo

The reports stated that she was traveling southeast headed toward Sleepers. I'm trying to understand two things, First, where on the island did she hit. Was she attempting to go between Diamond and Rattlesnake and hit on the north side of the island or was she attempting to go betwen Diamond and the mainland and hit the west side. And second, was she coming from Wolfeboro (Wolfetrap) or from Pentleton Beach at the time.

I took these pictures the morning of the crash. I was fishing out of Ames Farm and could see that there had been a mishap on Diamond.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

They pretty much have to, they're only concerned about one issue, and it's become very apparent that their only real focus is a certain boating niche. Since the Littlefield accident is usually part of every heated discussion by a couple of these "concerned citizens", I can only think that that accident blinded them permanently. Speed wasn't a biggie in that case, alcohol was. The fact that he was piloting a Baja made their eyes permanently red whenever they see a GF boat. Regardless of all the boating accidents that happen resulting from alcohol, the only dangerous boaters in their mind are the GF crowd. It's more of a vendetta for a select group, some others just joined because it seemed like the thing to do. But when you talk about enforcement and existing laws being broken, they all clam right up.

There are some very good and decent people on board that support the speed limits. There are a couple of real flakes that appear to be blinded by hate. Reason be darned. Their comments from the beginning of this developing story are downright sickening.

I don't think the controversy that has taken place since the accident is pro-speed limit against anti-speed limit. The pro limit-regulars have not posted negative. This is mostly a new group more interested in the accident than in HB847.

An accident like this will draw a crowd. Like the crowds that hang around the court house when a big name trial is taking place. There is no courtroom yet so they hang around this forum. This thread has has 27,000+ views in a week and a half.

I personally believe we should wait for more information and let feelings cool before trying to dissect what happened. In any event it is only one accident. One accident should not make OR break speed limits no matter what happened.

I think Lt. Dunleavy will do his job and go where the evidence leads him.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I don't think the controversy that has taken place since the accident is pro-speed limit against anti-speed limit. The pro limit-regulars have not posted negative. This is mostly a new group more interested in the accident than in HB847.

An accident like this will draw a crowd. Like the crowds that hang around the court house when a big name trial is taking place. There is no courtroom yet so they hang around this forum. This thread has has 27,000+ views in a week and a half.

I personally believe we should wait for more information and let feelings cool before trying to dissect what happened. In any event it is only one accident. One accident should not make OR break speed limits no matter what happened.

I think Lt. Dunleavy will do his job and go where the evidence leads him.

Well regarding your assessment, I agree with you BI. But if you look at the various posts from way back to current, you'll note that almost every single accident has one thing in common. That one thing is not speed.

Some people are pretty PO'd by this accident, well, not really. They are using the "WHO" to demonstrate their complete ignorance of boating accidents, past and present. They really do believe that this accident strengthens their pro speed limit case. I know they are really PO'd at the thought that the possible outcome will be that, once again, they are wrong.

They, have an agenda. Safety isn't that agenda. Kinda like the two party political system, birds of a feather may unite, but scoundrels often take center stage. You already know two of the scoundrels.

In case I haven't mentioned it specifically, I personally think you're good people.

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I don't think the controversy that has taken place since the accident is pro-speed limit against anti-speed limit. The pro limit-regulars have not posted negative. This is mostly a new group more interested in the accident than in HB847.

An accident like this will draw a crowd. Like the crowds that hang around the court house when a big name trial is taking place. There is no courtroom yet so they hang around this forum. This thread has has 27,000+ views in a week and a half.

I personally believe we should wait for more information and let feelings cool before trying to dissect what happened. In any event it is only one accident. One accident should not make OR break speed limits no matter what happened.

I think Lt. Dunleavy will do his job and go where the evidence leads him.

BI,

Great words, great advice and a great post!

Folks, please wait for the facts and trust that the authorities will do a thorough and complete job. We all need to be fair and react to facts, not speculation.

Things are in good hands and we should not jump to any conclusions.

R2B

[2Blackdogs]

It's not exactly a conspiracy, but why was this news conference been called in the middle of the week? Oftentimes, controversial bills are signed on a Friday to dumb-down the public's reactions to his signature over a weekend.

Nobody outside of government circles knows the BAC readings, but the Governor might have asked prosecutors today and called a news conference promptly upon hearing bad news.

That way, he has "culpable deniability" to an extreme BAC level returned by clinicians and can distance himself from that cloud of misery hanging over the NHRBA, with whom he probably has posed for pictures.

Skip, You missed on your guess. My treatment here doesn't rise to the level that another member has had to endure. Maybe fire your new Chief and pick up where you left off?
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...3&postcount=36

Kathy writes,

2Blackdogs you really need to come out of your shell hon and tell us how you really feel...

So? I ran out of Decaf two days ago. Ingestion of certain liquids can have deleterious effects on the well-being of individuals and others.

And don't call me hon.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

It's not exactly a conspiracy, but why was this news conference been called in the middle of the week? Oftentimes, controversial bills are signed on a Friday to dumb-down the public's reactions to his signature over a weekend.

Nobody outside of government circles knows the BAC readings, but the Governor might have asked prosecutors today and called a news conference promptly upon hearing bad news.

That way, he has "culpable deniability" to an extreme BAC level returned by clinicians and can distance himself from that cloud of misery hanging over the NHRBA, with whom he probably has posed for pictures.

Skip, You missed on your guess. My treatment here doesn't rise to the level that another member has had to endure. Maybe fire your new Chief and pick up where you left off?
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...3&postcount=36

Kathy writes,


So? I ran out of Decaf two days ago. Ingestion of certain liquids can have deleterious effects on the well-being of individuals and others.

And don't call me hon.

So what if the skipper's BAL was 2.0? What's you smart arse reply to that? Maybe they should pass a law sting it's too high to drive a boat?

Give it a rest Blackdog. You're not a positive influence for anyone's side. You obviously have an axe to grind, and could give a darn about any facts.

[kthy66]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

And don't call me hon.

hmmm,, touchy touchy...
Better than calling you what you truly are (webmaster doesnt like those words)
bahahahahaha,,

[2Blackdogs]

Originally Posted by kthy66

hmmm,, touchy touchy...
Better than calling you what you truly are (webmaster doesnt like those words)
bahahahahaha,,

And don't call me hon should have been followed with a . But I forgot.

[Rose]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

If citizens don't hold the NHMP's feet to the fire in this case, the underfunded and disfunctional regime commanded by the former, mostly invisible, Safety Director will assure that PC will rule the waves instead of reason.

If you're going to rip someone else a new one for their spelling, you better make certain all of yours is correct. Or maybe your spellchecker is dysfunctional.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Rose

If you're going to rip someone else a new one for their spelling, you better make certain all of yours is correct. Or maybe your spellchecker is dysfunctional.

Atta girl!

[Waterbaby]

Originally Posted by Rose

If you're going to rip someone else a new one for their spelling, you better make certain all of yours is correct. Or maybe your spellchecker is dysfunctional.

All Right, Rose!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

Waterbaby wrote,

That's because, "You ain't going to learn what you don't want to know"

But that's my fault as well, for using an NHRBA abbreviation repeated most often at this Winni.com forum.

A.I.S. stands for "Alcohol Induced Stupidity", a term much repeated by the NHRBA. Didn't the NHRBA shoot itself in the foot with A.I.S., or what?

I also neglected to include the quotes I was answering. These were:

Big Kahuna's.
A survivor, last described as "incoherent" at the scene, has confessed that everyone on board was drinking alcohol at a Wolfeboro bar scene. The driver was found at the helm. As of this morning, Big Kahuna's quote, therefore, is moot. (Note the correct spelling of moot, Skip. One could learn a lot from OSO's risk-takers, but safety for other boaters, expression of self, spelling, and grammar aren't among those things at OSO).

Wolfetrap may very well sell canned beer, but it's become painfully obvious that a Lake Winnipesaukee "party-hardy" atmosphere prevails among NHRBA officials.

They, in their self-congratulatory and collective stupors, conduct a not-so-stealthy endangerment upon us Winni boaters. Like Littlefield.

Skip wrote,

And that's why Littlefield's prosecution turned out so swell?

Dick Flynn never saw a political pie he wouldn't stick his finger into.

If citizens don't hold the NHMP's feet to the fire in this case, the underfunded and disfunctional regime commanded by the former, mostly invisible, Safety Director will assure that PC will rule the waves instead of reason.

Lt. Dunleavy may not attribute his "shooting star" success to Dick Flynn, but you'll notice that Dunleavy, a personal and influental friend of some here, is being supported in this forum with full public access. That is to say, a politically-supported, bootlicking presence. PC run amok.

This disgraced "Safety Director" managed to throw in one last monkey wrench. You'll recall "The Survey" please.

And Nightwing's.


Ditto for the above. Politically-supported PC run amok.

Now, where are the benefits of a "Rule 6" for Winni in this case?

And my much-criticized "rule of thumb" will have my family going to Boston for any major surgery, and not to Laconia.

In short, I hope this investigation is more thorough than Littlefield's.

And the phrase that you have incorrectly used on at least 2 posts is "party hearty"

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Whoa....marginal story? Outspoken proponent of "no limits needed" and head of NHRBA crashes boat at 2:30 AM, passenger says they were drinking at Wolftrap, M.P. states they were at planing speed and that beer cans found at scene? That's not marginal. Check out the Union Leader's article(and check out the letters...many NH citizens must view this as a state wide embarrassment).

http://www.theunionleader.com/articl...sh&articleId=1...

think this one over a bit further Airwaves. Very sad.

The state wide embarrassment Could be, that once again, speed limits have nothing to do with the accident. If you bark up the wrong tree too long, your neck will be permanently strained.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

...A rule of thumb is that the larger the city, hospital, emergency room, fire department or police force, the more sophisticated the attention to official inquiry...When an agency has only a handful of annual investigations like this one (or even fewer), it's not going to be sophisticated at all. Worse, the investigation in a tourist-dependent state is subject to fierce political and economic community pressures...

Normally I ignore deliberate attempts to troll, but I'll make an exception this time to reassure the readers that this invetigation is in safe & capable hands.

As has been noted by numerous public sources, the lead investigator is Lt. Tim Dunleavy of the NHMP. Dunleavy is a career full time law enforcement supervisor that is recognized by the New Hampshire Court system, Underwriters Labratory and the United States Coast Guard as an expert in boat accident reconstruction amongst a number of other qualifications & duties, and can and has succesfully testified to same.

He also has extensive experience in responiding to, investigating, and succesfully prosecuting numerous criminal violations of the State's boating regulations, including a fair share of the fatalities that have occured on our waters the last few decades.

Finally, numerous serious crimes occur throughout our State in various small locals on an annual basis. All Departments in this State utilize neighboring community experts, each County Attorney's Office, the State Attorney General's Office, the NH State Police, the State Police Crime Lab and a long list of private and federal agencies to assist in all levels of evidence gathering and criminal investigation and prosecution.

The root cause of this tragedy will be thoroughly investigated and the public will have timely and relevant material released at the appropriate juncture, just as today's new stories have proven.

While it takes only the ability to operate a keyboard to be a troll, rest assured that the folks in charge of this investigation are much more qualified than the naysayers at their respective craft.

Skip

[Waterbaby]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

Looks like Uncle Ray got "called in".

A rule of thumb is that the larger the city, hospital, emergency room, fire department or police force, the more sophisticated the attention to official inquiry. Europe, I'm reading today, has the technology to find fingerprints on anything made of metal, even if it's old or submerged. European laboratories are far better funded than US laboratories.

When an agency has only a handful of annual investigations like this one (or even fewer), it's not going to be sophisticated at all. Worse, the investigation in a tourist-dependent state is subject to fierce political and economic community pressures.

Perhaps "the showing to the door" of Safety Director Dick Flynn will change that impression, but funding to the NHMP is already such a rarity that the radar guns, the radar survey, and officer's radar training were grieved as major expenses. Or so we were told here. The survey itself was widely criticized as unscientific, and suggested a political pressure at work to make the findings "turn out right".

The presence of alcohol evidence has turned this discussion to the real intent of the NHRBA, and that is to perpetuate a party-hardy atmosphere for Winni's cowboys. We haven't heard from the primary proponent of A.I.S. lately, especially with today's potentially embarrassing link to the NHRBA. It's too late to impeach the president of NHRBA now, but it could happen.

I hope you're wrong about the driver behind the wheel. That driver might be the one who cannot speak in defense.

No matter how many times I read this, I cannot make it relevant to this thread.....................please don't elaborate, I'm not sure it will help your cause.

[flyry49]

Originally Posted by UncleRay

According to the tests on this hull, it looks to plane off at about 19/20 mph.

http://www.boattest.com/oem/general-...381#TestResult



If you care to run the math, this will get you close:

Minimum Planing Speed in Knots:

2.3 x ((32.2 x (all up displacement in pounds)^0.333)^0.5)/1.6889

For example, an 18' boat at 2,323.2 pounds (including crew) may plane at 13.902 knots.

The formula has no input for the shape of the hull. It just calculates the speed required to lift 2300 pounds. It also does not indicate how difficult it will be to get the hull to 13.9 knots. However, in my ignorance, I believe it may be somewhat representative. If the boat was surfing down a wave at 13.9 knots, it may very well be planing.

i can tell you right now that this boat wont fully plane out till close to 30 mph but why don't we leave this investigation to the investigators? my thoughts and prayers are with the people involved