06/15/08 Diamond Island Fatality

[2Blackdogs]

Even eating an orange will produce a .04 BAC!

Do you mean the BAC was .00 because the investigator's search warrant was rescinded or otherwise defective?

Well this is great, now we have two "Questionable Sources".

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

Even eating an orange will produce a .04 BAC!

Do you mean the BAC was .00 because the investigator's search warrant was rescinded or otherwise defective?

Well this is great, now we have two "Questionable Sources".

Wow, guess I better stop eating oranges for breakfast at work.

[VtSteve]

I guess this is an update of sorts. I'll give the benefit of the doubt to Merrill Fay's comments, since he should know more about the outcome at speed than I. Personally, I think hitting a stationary object at 25 or 30 would involve more than bumps or bruises, or maybe Formula's build quality really is that good.

http://www.unionleader.com/article.a...5-9a65f12188b4

"The site of the Lake Winnipesaukee crash, 37-acre Diamond Island, is just off the deepest, central part of the lake where boaters generally speed up, many boaters told The Associated Press. It was pitch black and drizzling the night of the accident, and locals say there was poor visibility.

"If she had run into the island at 25 mph, she would have got bumped around a little, but that's all," said Merrill Fay, who owns Fay's Boat Yard."

[EricP]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

I guess this is an update of sorts. I'll give the benefit of the doubt to Merrill Fay's comments, since he should know more about the outcome at speed than I. Personally, I think hitting a stationary object at 25 or 30 would involve more than bumps or bruises, or maybe Formula's build quality really is that good.

http://www.unionleader.com/article.a...5-9a65f12188b4

"The site of the Lake Winnipesaukee crash, 37-acre Diamond Island, is just off the deepest, central part of the lake where boaters generally speed up, many boaters told The Associated Press. It was pitch black and drizzling the night of the accident, and locals say there was poor visibility.

"If she had run into the island at 25 mph, she would have got bumped around a little, but that's all," said Merrill Fay, who owns Fay's Boat Yard."

Is Merrill Fay an accident reconstruction specialist? I'll wait until we hear from those doing the investigation before I believe what a competitor says. People need to just wait and quit playing Monday morning quarterbacks.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by EricP

Is Merrill Fay an accident reconstruction specialist? I'll wait until we hear from those doing the investigation before I believe what a competitor says. People need to just wait and quit playing Monday morning quarterbacks.

Didn't mean to offer it up as anything other than face value. I "assumed" he knows more than me about it based on his statement. If he does not, I guess that makes me an arse for copying it. This accident is also interesting for that aspect of it, that of damage and consequences. I personally don;t believe he's right, but at least once before I've been wrong.

No offense meant, just pointing it out.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Didn't mean to offer it up as anything other than face value. I "assumed" he knows more than me about it based on his statement. If he does not, I guess that makes me an arse for copying it. This accident is also interesting for that aspect of it, that of damage and consequences. I personally don;t believe he's right, but at least once before I've been wrong.

No offense meant, just pointing it out.

I'd be willing to rig up an old junker boat to run at 25 mph if old Merrill would be willing to be the test dummy and run it into a wall. I'd be interested to see how bumped up he got, I'm willing to bet he'd end up in the hospital pretty messed up or worse.

[kchace]

I think Mr Fay is wrong. One can easily be killed in a car at 25mph especially if you're not wearing a seat belt. One certainly isn't better protected in a boat.

Check out this damage and report of injury from a 15knot collision.

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/archive/10.asp

Ken

[B R]

kchace,

How long did it take you to find that link? probably not long. if some journalist is going to quote fay's marine, don't you think they could have put the same effort in and come to the conclusion that injuries from a 25 mph crash into a granite ledge just might have more than bumps and bruises as a result?

but that's a topic for another thread - poor journalism from the union leader. that may be something we can all agree on.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by kchace

I think Mr Fay is wrong. One can easily be killed in a car at 25mph especially if you're not wearing a seat belt. One certainly isn't better protected in a boat.

Check out this damage and report of injury from a 15knot collision.

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/archive/10.asp

Ken

Very similar damage to this accident as well. I'd have to think that hitting that kind of object at any speed would throw everyone forward at a pretty good clip. The results of the accident you linked certainly provide ample proof of that.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

When a passenger on a boat is traveling at 25 mph, they are traveling 88 feet in one second. If the boat stops, the occupant continues to travel at 88 feet per second until something causes them to stop.

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

When a passenger on a boat is traveling at 25 mph, they are traveling 88 feet in one second. If the boat stops, the occupant continues to travel at 88 feet per second until something causes them to stop.

Actually, 60 MPH is 88 FPS. 25 MPH works out to 36.67 FPS

I am not expressing any opinion, just pointing out a fact.

Best regards!

R2B

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

Actually, 60 MPH is 88 FPS. 25 MPH works out to 36.67 FPS

I am not expressing any opinion, just pointing out a fact.

Best regards!

R2B

R2B,
Thank you for catching my error. You are correct.
My bad.
RG

[fatlazyless]

Someone noticed in a photograph a dealer's license plate on top of the dashboard, and the lack of bow numbers on the hull. So, how will insurance money get paid out?

Not a happy situation....what a tragedy.......safety pays.

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Someone noticed in a photograph a dealer's license plate on top of the dashboard, and the lack of bow numbers on the hull. So, how will insurance money get paid out?

Not a happy situation....what a tragedy.......safety pays.

The same way it would be paid out if the accident involved an auto dealer's demo or inventory vehicle.

[SIKSUKR]

Still waiting to hear where MaidenCove07 got this .14 bac info.You can't just post stuff like that without revealing where this came from.

[VtSteve]

I don't think that's true KTHY66. If memory serves me, post that was pulled had a rather nasty and suggestive personal suggestion for someone in it? Given names were named, I'd have pulled it too.

[2Blackdogs]

A link for the weather-history on June 15th:
http://www.wunderground.com/weathers...y=15&year=2008

The site, Ellacoya State Park, is very close to Diamond Island. You can't get much closer for weather history!

Ellacoya recorded a precipitous drop in temperature at 2:40am, at the time that the doctor said the rain started. Also, that would be about the time that the MP arrived, who also reported rain.

Some wrote that a 45-minute response time was appropriate for the radar-equipped NHMP. Five minutes, ten minutes.......... maybe.......but 45? I disagree, of course.

From a steady temperature, a two-degree drop occurred at 1:45am, and could account for reports of light fog at that time. No fog was reported upon initial contact by the doctor. (He could witness, and did see, the scope of the emergency even as the Formula had drifted 20 feet away from shore.)

All this is consistent with other time-line reports.

That the AP said it was "black" doesn't make sense. The moon was full. Even with an overcast night sky, the moon will cause the lake to glow impressively. But then, I don't "run the plotter", or have any electronics glow to take away my night vision.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

{snip}
That the AP said it was "black" doesn't make sense. The moon was full. Even with an overcast night sky, the moon will cause the lake to glow impressively. But then, I don't "run the plotter", or have any electronics glow to take away my night vision.

I thought it was pretty "black" at 11:30 Sat night. I couldn't see the Moon through the clouds and fog where I was in Alton Bay. In any case, unless I'm not interpreting the data properly, the Moon was set or near to setting (2:32 AM) at the time of the collision. So it may have been hidden by the terrain as well as any clouds and fog.

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/cgi-bin/aa_pap.pl

[2Blackdogs]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

I thought it was pretty "black" at 11:30 Sat night. I couldn't see the Moon through the clouds and fog where I was in Alton Bay. In any case, unless I'm not interpreting the data properly, the Moon was set or near to setting (2:32 AM) at the time of the collision. So it may have been hidden by the terrain as well as any clouds and fog.
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/cgi-bin/aa_pap.pl

I couldn't see the moon overhead even at midnight the night of the 15th. Even a "clouded moon" still illuminates the rest of the night sky impressively. The next opportunity for those hours will be July 15th, with a 93% full moon, to boot. We all should make an attempt to see for ourselves, once we get our night vision back from indoor lighting.

If another noisy boat wakes me at that hour or, if that raccoon that visits my metal trash bins has his usual good sense of timing, I may be able to report what I see then!

Originally Posted by NightWing

MP HQ normally closes at 2AM during the boating season. Responding officials most likely were home, maybe even in bed, when the collision was reported. If that was the case, 45 minute response time was reasonable.

That's been my experience as well. Maybe advise codeman671's response to my observations?

Originally Posted by codeman671

He is full of it...A mutual friend of Tom and Nancy Rock and I heard from them directly that it was pea soup at the time of the incident. It took MP 45 minutes to reach the scene in the fog/rain. With plenty of HP, radar, gps, etc and boats usually on patrol somewhere it would not have taken that long in fair conditions.

[EricP]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

I couldn't see the moon overhead even at midnight the night of the 15th. Even a "clouded moon" still illuminates the rest of the night sky impressively. The next opportunity for those hours will be July 15th, with a 93% full moon, to boot. We all should make an attempt to see for ourselves, once we get our night vision back from indoor lighting.

If another noisy boat wakes me at that hour or, if that raccoon that visits my metal trash bins has his usual good sense of timing, I may be able to report what I see then!


That's been my experience as well. Maybe advise codeman671's response to my observations?

Clouds come in different densities, so comparing a "clouded moon" from July 15th, or any other night for that matter, to a "clouded moon" on a different night is meaningless. If it's raining for example, those clouds may not let the monlight through at all unlike a night that has no rain and thin cloud cover where you can't really see the moon but the light is evident.

[Skip]

Results of the investigation should be complete within the next several weeks, according to THIS on-line article in today's Citizen.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Skip

Results of the investigation should be complete within the next several weeks, according to THIS on-line article in today's Citizen.

Similar article on WMUR.com Here

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

Some wrote that a 45-minute response time was appropriate for the radar-equipped NHMP. Five minutes, ten minutes.......... maybe.......but 45? I disagree, of course.

MP HQ normally closes at 2AM during the boating season. Responding officials most likely were home, maybe even in bed, when the collision was reported. If that was the case, 45 minute response time was reasonable.

[kthy66]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Someone noticed in a photograph a dealer's license plate on top of the dashboard, and the lack of bow numbers on the hull. So, how will insurance money get paid out?

Not a happy situation....what a tragedy.......safety pays.

they most likely have an umbrella policy

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by ITD

I'd be willing to rig up an old junker boat to run at 25 mph if old Merrill would be willing to be the test dummy and run it into a wall. I'd be interested to see how bumped up he got, I'm willing to bet he'd end up in the hospital pretty messed up or worse.

I'll offer to hold the camera and bring the popcorn...

Hitting a large, solid wall at 25-30mph will certainly be enough to toss people around and do the type of damage that occured. Boats don't have airbags or seatbelts, and with open cockpits there is nothing to prevent people from bouncing around or flying forward. The link from Kchace below is a perfect example of a low speed accident and how tramatic it can be.

I find MaidenCove07's comment odd, and it definitely should be clarified. Granted I am not in the investigative mix on this, but it was my take that a blood sample was called for the next morning and that she never "blew". Where did such a number come from??? Rumor? Info leak? Squeeky wheel at the hospital???

[EricP]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Didn't mean to offer it up as anything other than face value. I "assumed" he knows more than me about it based on his statement. If he does not, I guess that makes me an arse for copying it. This accident is also interesting for that aspect of it, that of damage and consequences. I personally don;t believe he's right, but at least once before I've been wrong.

No offense meant, just pointing it out.

None taken, my response was a general comment not directed back at you, I apologize if it came across that way.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

...Even eating an orange will produce a .04 BAC!...

Just to make it clear to the reader, the above quote is indeed as absurd as it sounds.

This should be of particular relief to those less than 21, that can be charged with DWI or BWI with a BAC of .02% or greater (and may actually believe it is time to skip a healthy desert or snack).

The next orange is on me.....

[2Blackdogs]

Originally Posted by Skip

Just to make it clear to the reader, the above quote is indeed as absurd as it sounds.

This should be of particular relief to those less than 21, that can be charged with DWI or BWI with a BAC of .02% or greater (and may actually believe it is time to skip a healthy desert or snack).

The next orange is on me.....

Hurrah! This morning, another forum option has been opened up for me!

However, it's not the "edit" button, which could have saved Skip the time and trouble to point out that I'd noticed my decimal error too late. It's .004 BAC for an orange, not .04.

I did find that some apple juices can bump BAC readings up .03 points....All not lost on BWI lawyers, I'm sure.

As to this crash, I'll wager that Merrill Fay hasn't had any dead-stop-wrecks at 30 mph and neither, fortunately, have I.

(I think it's 30 for Diamond Island's terminal velocity).

I'll be happy to leave it to "NHMP professionals" such as Lt. Dunleavy, who has used "2300 rpms" to assuage the arguments of a great many of Winni's reckless boaters.