Sound travels at night

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

Because, as I've posted over and over (so please pay attention this time), many of the 150 foot rule violations are unintentional, due to visibility problems. I've witnessed this myself way too many times.

How many unintentional 150' rule violations due to poor visibility have resulted in collisions? I'm just curious. I haven't seen a survey on this one.
And don't give some USCG statistic from Miami, or Long Lake or any other lake that does not have such a rule in place to avoid these situations. You can also sort by BWI and delete those as well. Ceteris Paribus statistics are all that I am interested in.

Originally Posted by Evenstar

Do you actually believe that the operator of the boat that resulted in the recent fatality on the lake intentionally broke the 150 foot rule?

#1 - Irrelevant - If you are concerned for your safety and the safety of paddlers on the lake, night navigation has nothing to do with this arguement.
#2 - In bad taste. I know you're chomping at the bit for the investigators to publicize their findings in hope that it supports your agenda. But let's wait until then before you draw any links.

[codeman671]

Evenstar- how many ACTUAL times have you kayaked on Winnipesaukee in the last few years, since joining this forum and since you started kayaking (and boating for that matter) in 2005? You build yourself up to be quite the pro for such a short time on the water, especially in a seasonal sport. If you say more than a 2-3 times a year at most I probably won't believe you anyhow...

I guess all of us with 20+ years of experience on the water just can't begin to compare. Some members on this forum even are in the marine industry as their careers.

Your cockiness is not impressing anyone. Maybe in case you haven't realized, some of us have already done the college thing, and graduated. Your super human qualities are not impressing anyone either. My vision is 20/10-20/15 (thanks to my super human ultra top secret powers afforded to me by Zyoptix ) and I can tell you that in real life, kayakers can be hard to see at any speed. Sun, shadows, glare, wind, waves, fog, traffic, rain, darkness, coloration, other distractions, etc all lend to this. Sure, in a perfect world you should be visible for a long distance but as we all know this is not a perfect world and conditions are not always as perfect either.

Oh yeah, we are all sucky debaters too... Gimme a break!

[twoplustwo]

alsadad, you rock!

[rick35]

Well done! You know when I started this thread it wasn't under Speed Limits. Someone moved it under Speed Limits and it has gone down hill from there.

On a positive note one of the best things about being on the lake are the nighttime sounds. The sound of loons calling out to each other is one of my favorites. You can tell when the Mount is heading back in from its last run of the day when you hear the rumble of the music from across the lake. Sometimes you can even hear the grind of the of the engine if its quiet enough. Frogs, now that's something I can do without. My wife's brother has a house next door which is next to a wet area. The sound of hundreds of fornicating frogs annoys the heck out of me all the way over at our camp. I can't imagine what its like when they're trying to go to sleep.

Rick

[EricP]

If you all would stop replying to evenstar's posts she'll go away and this insanity will end. HB847 passed, nothing will change, we all know this except for a few people, don't talk to them, then they'll have nothing to spin back at you.

[SIKSUKR]

All I can say is wow!!I quote Evanstar in her own words saying she is scared on Winni and she doesn't believe her own words!How does anyone debate with someone that does not even believe what their own words said?Can you see me hitting myself on the head with this 2x4?I'm done with this nonsense.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by Ryan

How many unintentional 150' rule violations due to poor visibility have resulted in collisions? I'm just curious. I haven't seen a survey on this one.

There is no survey that I know of. And close calls are not recorded by any agency - so we have no way of knowing how often these happen either. But both do happen and we all know it. Some just won't admit it.

You can also sort by BWI and delete those as well..

And I suppose you also want to throw out any cases where the weather resulted in poor visibility, plus any cases where the operator had less than perfect vision, or any time that there's any chop on the lake, or any cases that happen on busy days, or any other case that don't support your argument. If a violation is unintentional - it is still just as unintentional no matter what other rules were broken or what the conditions were.

BTW: Ceteris Paribus is not even a legal term - it is a financial term. But it basically means "with all else being equal" and that's exactly what I have repeatedly stated: "With all else being equal, slower speeds are safer."

#1 - Irrelevant - If you are concerned for your safety and the safety of paddlers on the lake, night navigation has nothing to do with this arguement. #2 - In bad taste. I know you're chomping at the bit for the investigators to publicize their findings in hope that it supports your agenda. But let's wait until then before you draw any links.

More excuses! You and others here seem to think that the 150 foot rule is all we need to protect us - like it's the Holy Grail or something. In truth it doesn't always protect us and not all violations are intentional. The accident that I cited is just one example of an unintentional violation.

How is what I posted "in bad taste" in any way? This accident happened a while ago - so I really don't see why we can't start discussing it when it applies. So do you actually believe that the published findings are going to state that the operator was intentionally breaking the 150 foot rule? Because my point was that this was obviously an unintentional violation. I never mentioned any assumed speed in this case, as you seem to be suggesting.

Originally Posted by codeman671

Evenstar- how many ACTUAL times have you kayaked on Winnipesaukee in the last few years, since joining this forum and since you started kayaking (and boating for that matter) in 2005? You build yourself up to be quite the pro for such a short time on the water, especially in a seasonal sport. If you say more than a 2-3 times a year at most I probably won't believe you anyhow...

I've never claimed to be a pro at anything - and I've never "built myself up" in any way. All I've done is just honestly state my training, my actual abilities, and my experience - and I only did that when members here accused me of not being capable.

Why is it that I constantly have to prove myself to you guys? I never lie - yet I'm accused of lying here all the time - mostly because my views are inconvenient to what you chose to believe about the actual dangers that paddlers face on the lake. Since you've already stated that you probably won't believe me, I see no reason to answer your question, since you'll just accuse me of lying.

I guess all of us with 20+ years of experience on the water just can't begin to compare. Some members on this forum even are in the marine industry as their careers.

Experience in large-fast powerboats lets you see one side of the issue. Experience in kayaking on large NH lakes lets you see another side. I have never questioned the experience of the power boaters on this forum - but that doesn't mean that you know what it is like to be out on a lake lake in a sea kayak.

I may not have as many years of experience in boating as some of you, but I have paddled more miles on large NH lakes (an on the ocean) than most of you - and, as far as I know, I'm the only member of a top-ranking collegiate sailing team on this forum - which means I currently spend a lot more more hours on the water than most of you. (We are on the water 5 or 6 days a week, from the end of Aug through mid-Nov and from the end of Feb though mid May (or mid June when we make it to the Nationals)

Your cockiness is not impressing anyone.

How am I being "cocky"? Is it just because I disagree with your views? Or is it just because I can defend myself from all the personal accusations against me here? Or is it because I refuse to let you guys intimidate me or force me off this forum - just because you have no tolerance for anyone here who doesn't share your views?

Maybe in case you haven't realized, some of us have already done the college thing, and graduated. Your super human qualities are not impressing anyone either.

I'm a collegiate athlete, and my brain is different than the average person - both are actually true - and, again, I only disclosed both when I was accused of not having certain abilities or skills - I'm not trying to impress anyone - but just defending myself against false accusations here. I'm also an older college student, so I'm not the college kid that you think I am. (I'm twice as old as my sailing coach, to say nothing of my teammates.)

My vision is 20/10-20/15 (thanks to my super human ultra top secret powers afforded to me by Zyoptix ) and I can tell you that in real life, kayakers can be hard to see at any speed. Sun, shadows, glare, wind, waves, fog, traffic, rain, darkness, coloration, other distractions, etc all lend to this. Sure, in a perfect world you should be visible for a long distance but as we all know this is not a perfect world and conditions are not always as perfect either.

And that in my point! If power boat operators have trouble seeing kayaks, doesn't it make sense to enact a speed to slow down the fastest boats - so that they will have more time to see us and to avoid our 150 foot zones? (I don't have perfect vision, yet, in decent conditions, I can see kayaks up to a mile or more away - so there is really some relationship between speed and ability to see kayaks).

Oh yeah, we are all sucky debaters too... Gimme a break!

No you don't all "suck" at debating - just some of you who don't seem to understand that personal attacks are not allowed in debates.

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

All I can say is wow!!I quote Evanstar in her own words saying she is scared on Winni and she doesn't believe her own words!How does anyone debate with someone that does not even believe what their own words said?Can you see me hitting myself on the head with this 2x4?I'm done with this nonsense.

I tried really hard to explain the difference between being scared by a close call and being afraid of kayaking on winni. If you still can't understand the difference between the two - than perhaps the 2X4 will help, because I'm at a loss as to how else to make you understand this.

[B R]

Quote:
Originally Posted by codeman671 View Post
Evenstar- how many ACTUAL times have you kayaked on Winnipesaukee in the last few years, since joining this forum and since you started kayaking (and boating for that matter) in 2005? You build yourself up to be quite the pro for such a short time on the water, especially in a seasonal sport. If you say more than a 2-3 times a year at most I probably won't believe you anyhow...

you answer:

I've never claimed to be a pro at anything - and I've never "built myself up" in any way. All I've done is just honestly state my training, my actual abilities, and my experience - and I only did that when members here accused me of not being capable.

Why is it that I constantly have to prove myself to you guys? I never lie - yet I'm accused of lying here all the time - mostly because my views are inconvenient to what you chose to believe about the actual dangers that paddlers face on the lake. Since you've already stated that you probably won't believe me, I see no reason to answer your question, since you'll just accuse me of lying.

__________________________________________________ ___

Codeman asks you how many times you've actually kayaked on winnipesaukee and this is how you answer him? can you answer a direct question? how many times have you kayaked on winnipesaukee? (hint: this requires a number and not much else).

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

And I suppose you also want to throw out any cases where the weather resulted in poor visibility, plus any cases where the operator had less than perfect vision, or any time that there's any chop on the lake, or any cases that happen on busy days, or any other case that don't support your argument. If a violation is unintentional - it is still just as unintentional no matter what other rules were broken or what the conditions were.

I just want cases that would be prevented by a speed limit alone, and not covered by another law already on the books. Thanks.

[alsadad]

I think this obsession with the speed limit issue is getting out of control in some quarters. This realization struck me last night as I read a thread about sound traveling at night. The thread began with a comment about a loud boat awakening rick35 while passing between Bear and Mark late at night. In the very first reply, someone stated that it will be even worse next year with the speed limit because it will take twice as long for the boats to pass by. The thread went right downhill from there. The next thing we know, I thought, someone will be petitioning the NH Legislature to overrule the laws of physics and impose a nighttime speed limit on sound waves.

It was very late, and I wanted desperately to go to bed. But I decided that before bed I had to find a thread somewhere on the forum that hadn’t degenerated into the mindlessly repetitive speed limit debate.

Yes, I thought, the gas prices thread! But no luck, after a few posts someone predicted that gas prices will do more to slow down boats than a speed limit, and others jumped in to support or refute that argument.

Then I saw the thread about snowmobiles skimming over the lake and thought this would be it. But no, in the very first thread Airwaves wondered whether this topic should be under the speed limits section and soon people were arguing over whether speed limits applied to skimmers.

Restaurant reviews, I thought. Those should be safe. But the review of Ricky’s Red Tide Shellfish Emporium in Wolfeboro soon devolved into an argument over the effect of speed limits on restaurant revenue: no one will go if it takes too long to get there; you’re wrong, more family boaters will come to the lake and patronize waterfront businesses, etc., etc.

I had begun to despair, but then, finally, I knew I’d found it. “Raspberries are ready” read the title. I began reading the posts: raspberries ready at Smith’s…$4 a quart…$3 a pint in the supermarket…raspberry jam…homemade ice cream… At last, now I can safely go to sleep. Then, suddenly, another post appeared in the thread. Someone had pasted a story from the local paper:

Boating Fatality Narrowly Averted
A Bear Island resident was saved from choking this afternoon by a quick-thinking fellow boater. The fortunate man, whose name is being withheld, had read on winnipesaukee.com that the raspberries were ripe at Smith’s Farm in Gilford. He took his boat to the Gilford town docks and hiked from there to Smith’s Farm to pick some. Anxious to return with his juicy loot, he raced across the Broads toward home. On the way he decided to sample the berries and shoveled a handful into his mouth. His boat struck the wake of the Mt. Washington and the sudden lurch caused some berries to become lodged in his throat. He began to choke and soon lost consciousness, slumping over the controls.

His now out of control 38’ GFBL approached a lone kayaker out for an afternoon paddle. As the speeding boat penetrated the kayak’s 150’ zone, the kayaker whipped off her bright blue bikini top and began waving it frantically to signal the boater. As the boat bore down on her she thought that she should have bought one of those stupid safety flags. As the boat raced by, just inches from the kayak, she saw that the driver was unconscious. Applying all of her prodigious kayaking skills, she chased down the careening boat and, in a daring feat, leapt from the kayak onto the boat. Then, using her superhuman strength, she lifted the beer-bellied, cigar-chomping, 300 pound man into position and applied the Heimlich Maneuver, dislodging the raspberries from his throat and clearing his airway.

When asked for her reaction to the incident, the hero replied, “Fortunately, once the speed limit takes effect next year, we will no longer be threatened by gluttons traveling faster than their ability to swallow.”

Now I fear I’ll never get to sleep.

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

Originally Posted by alsadad

I think this obsession with the speed limit issue is getting out of control in some quarters. This realization struck me last night as I read a thread about sound traveling at night. The thread began with a comment about a loud boat awakening rick35 while passing between Bear and Mark late at night. {snip}
When asked for her reaction to the incident, the hero replied, “Fortunately, once the speed limit takes effect next year, we will no longer be threatened by gluttons traveling faster than their ability to swallow.”

Now I fear I’ll never get to sleep.

I was preparing to post to this thread when I read the message by alsadad.
I wanted to talk about noise laws and (briefly) respond to speed limit stuff.

However - I have such a big grin on my face from reading alsadad's post along with such a good state of mind that I just can not deal with speed limit bull at the moment. And ya know, that's how it should be when I visit winnipesaukee.com !

Thank you sir and a tip of this Skipper's cap.

catch the wave