Boating Accident/Death off Diamond Island

[hockeypuck]

Everyone is a critic and I have no clue what happen on that night in question, except that it was a tragedy to all involved.
Imagine this for one moment. Pick a large parking lot, like to a mall or something, one that you have been to 100's of times. Go there at 2:00 in the morning with heavy cloud cover, maybe throw in a downpour and no lights on in the parking lot. Now turn off your head lights and drive around at 25 miles an hour. Even though you are familiar with the location of light poles and the location of stores, chances are an accident is about to happen.
You could say poor judgement, but who among us has never been guilty of poor judgement. Could be a mechanical problem, an investigation may find that. Could be other factors involved. NO matter, it's still a tragedy. The best that can come out of this is that other boaters will take extra precautions so that it doesn't happen again.

[2Blackdogs]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Anyone remember when a different boat, about ten years ago or so, crashed into the dock and shoreline of Eagle Island in the nightime?

It was reported in the newspaper that when the fire department got there, the first words of the boat driver was something like: "This island is not supposed to be here. According to my gps, this island is in the wrong place!"

If I remember, his gps was running on a 'road' cartridge, and not a proper 'water' cartridge, or somethin, or other?

From ten years ago, you have an excellent memory. And he did use those same words.

It may be those with poor memories who end up as he did.

The NHMP discouraged him from his anchoring overnight in your area. He said he had another destination in mind, and "ran the plotter". That's always a mistake as BoaterEd.com noted.....you "run the boat"......always....

The plotter showed no lake details, so he THOUGHT he'd parallel Rt. 3. An island unexpectedly entered those thoughts.

My own thoughts are that the emergence of GPS on Winni poses serious questions for slower boaters out at night, or any anchored at night. FLL's boater could have been from out of state, where overnight anchoring is perfectly fine.

It's scary enough that a "cruise control" has been designed for boats. Even scarier, a plotter hooked up to an autopilot can "even drive itself"! A sailboat under sail was once cut in half by a cruiser a witness described saying, "nobody was seen at either helm station".

Trust the plotter alone in fog, with or without GPS?

[Justenuff]

Being a slow boater on the lake, I have only a passive interest in speed limits (unless being targeted by a fast boat), but one thing strikes me as being interesting about the continuation of this thread:

Some boaters on the lake would rather trust their electronic devices (compasses included) rather than their own senses.

To me, it is the equivalent of traveling route 93 in a blinding snowstorm. The sign says I can do 65 mph, the gps says I am on the road, do I still forge ahead, or do I slow to a speed where my senses can be trusted? (even if it is a stop!)

My boat gps occasionally shows me on land, even though I am at sail or at mooring (it is a garmin). I trust that these electronic devices are not 100% foolproof, so I use all my available senses.

I have been out on the lake at nite many times. If I don't know where I am, I slow down and stop until I can get my bearings. If I still have a problem, I move very slowly until I can make a better reckoning. My speed is a direct relationship to my ability to navigate.

On one occasion, I was out with sails up around 11 pm. It was a dark, foggy nite, and I was making my way from Wolfeboro to West Alton. (my boat had all the nav lights on as required) As I was at sail, I could hear the roar of the other boaters around me, but had no visual sighting. At one point, a motor seemed to be bearing down on me. I flashed my 1 million cp lamp at the sail, and around the boat, but the sound kept coming closer. Finally, I had to point the lamp directly at the boat sound and startled the operator who managed to swerve to miss me at about 100'. Obviously, the operator was travelling too fast for conditions.

My point is simple, electronic devices are no substitute for common sense. If you can't determine where you are or what is in front of you, then you should be slowing down or stopping and moving extremely cautiously. If this was the case in this accident, then perhaps a tragedy could have been averted.

My sympathies to all who were hurt or lost their lives.

[Airwaves]

Justenuff based on your post you seem like a good and prudent boater, someone who knows how to enjoy sailing and boating and do it safely. I don't get this however:

Some boaters on the lake would rather trust their electronic devices (compasses included) rather than their own senses.

I've been on the pages for a couple of years and I don't recall anyone on the forum even hinting at that, and outside of 2BD's post above, even hinting that someone was doing that causing an accident.

A GPS is a tool, like a compass and chart, to help you navigate etc. It's still up to you, the skipper, to make sure you've got everything under control.

I still use paper.

[sa meredith]

I'll be very glad when I open this thread, and instead of reading the same things (stated slightly differently) over and over and over and over and over again, we actually get some new information about the cause of the accident or the health of Erica.
The point, counter point, for this thread (now over 300 strong) has run it's course...in my opinion.

[wildwoodfam]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

It's still up to you, the skipper, to make sure you've got everything under control.

There are an awful lot of "skippers" out there who a) don't know the difference between starboard and port, b) couldn't tell you the difference between an anchor knot and a sailors knot, nor do they know how to tie a boat at the dock (that one I have witnessed first hand - a guy looping his line around and around and around the piling....then walking away. I then un looped it and re-tied it - only to have him come back screaming at me to "step away from my boat!!!" Luckily for me another person on the dock was able to let this maniac know I was actually HELPING HIM OUT! and c) could not give a care in the world as to right of way, no-wake rules, and courtesy at the docks, let alone what to do in case of bad weather, running at night or in the fog. Actually had one buddy ask me why we were cruising so slowly back to my docks one night coming from Wolfeboro to LI (which is a pretty easy ride.) I asked him - "how far ahead of the boat are you able to see anything?" His reply - "What does that matter - throttle it up and get us home!!!" All I can say is - he owns a boat and its on Lake Winnipesaukee, and when I see him heading out at night, I am glad to be in home port!

My point??? While many boaters on Winni are good skippers - there are many who are not - and do not have things under control.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by wildwoodfamMy point??? While many boaters on Winni are good skippers - there are many who are not - and do not have things under control.

And if you read my post again, what does the part that you quoted actually say and how are you in disagreement with it?

Airwaves:
It's still up to you, the skipper, to make sure you've got everything under control.

[2Blackdogs]

wildwoodfam writes,

I have witnessed first hand - a guy looping his line around and around and around the piling....then walking away.

Maybe it was Winni's Wild-West influence showing. Isn't that what Cowboys always do when they "tie up the reins" in Westerns?

*S A Meredith*, in dire need of any new developments here, needs to check this newscast.

http://robocaster.com/nashuatelegraph/podcast-episode-home/apps-pbcs_dll-article$aid=-20080625-news02-726346467/officials-looking-into-whether-alcohol-played-role-in-crash-boat-driver-prominent-foe-of-speed-limits.aspx

You may have to "read" it twice, but if I've "read" it correctly, the NHMP released BWI data prematurely!

Like Littlefield, another BWI charge may be imperiled in NH courts without a legal defense team having lifted a finger.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

...You may have to "read" it twice, but if I've "read" it correctly, the NHMP released BWI data prematurely!...

You can read it three or four times, and your conclusion is still in error on two major counts.

First, the NHMP released nothing. The documents that were released, the search warrant with supporting affadivit, was released prematurely by the Court, not the NHMP. There has already been a full accounting by the court and the release has no bearing on the investigation, save for embarassing a court clerk.

Second, no "BWI data" was released, either prematurely or in any other manner. Once again, what was released was a copy of the search warrant and the supporting affadavit which was used to obtain a blood sample to determine blood alcohol content. The results of that sample, your so called "BWI data", remains sealed pending final investigation results.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

wildwoodfam writes,

Maybe it was Winni's Wild-West influence showing. Isn't that what Cowboys always do when they "tie up the reins" in Westerns? (

Speaking of the Wild West...You give me the impression that you want to schedule the hanging tomorrow at sundown. Have a little respect, will you, until the investigation is complete and the facts are presented.

[NHKathy]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

I'll be very glad when I open this thread, and instead of reading the same things (stated slightly differently) over and over and over and over and over again, we actually get some new information about the cause of the accident or the health of Erica.
The point, counter point, for this thread (now over 300 strong) has run it's course...in my opinion.

When will this stop?!
This is now in it's 4 page!
I'm getting really sick of seeing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again!
ANY UPDATE ON THE INJURED ????
(then again, there could have been an update mixed in between all of this -and I missed it... )

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

I'll be very glad when I open this thread, and instead of reading the same things (stated slightly differently) over and over and over and over and over again, we actually get some new information about the cause of the accident or the health of Erica.
The point, counter point, for this thread (now over 300 strong) has run it's course...in my opinion.

I think it is safe to say one expects a forum to contain opinions. Perhaps you should try a newspaper if you don't want to see opinions and personal comments.

[VtSteve]

Boy, ya really nailed that one BD.

The headline articles may have been premature, but we have a boat on plane with some beer cans. There was more detail in some other articles, but mostly related to the warrant.

I don't think anything's been jeopardized in the case, there's still the pesky facts to deal with, none of which we have.

[kthy66]

Originally Posted by NHKathy

When will this stop?!
This is now in it's 4 page!
I'm getting really sick of seeing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again!
ANY UPDATE ON THE INJURED ????
(then again, there could have been an update mixed in between all of this -and I missed it... )

If your so sick of it then stop reading it.. simple solution to a simple problem

[sa meredith]

Originally Posted by kthy66

If your so sick of it then stop reading it.. simple solution to a simple problem

I'm sorry KTHY66, but you're wrong to post what you did, and I think it is a little rude.
Where else would you like us to look to find the latest news on this event. Many people close to this situation are memebers of this forum, and we depend on them to post info when they get it. So, when this thread pops up with a new post, it's frustrating to click in, scoll all the way down to only find THE SAME EXACT THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN. OFTEN DIFFERENT WORDS, BUT THE SAME THINGS. POINT, COUNTER POINT, POINT, COUNTER POINT.
We all get it... ok???? Speed, dark, light, rain, fog, drinking, not drinking, gps, radar, speed limits, no wake zone, Dr's. camp, IT'S ALL BEEN SAID!

Why would you tell her to stop reading it???? I'm sure all she wants is some real info about the health of Erica, or the cause of the accident.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by NHKathy

ANY UPDATE ON THE INJURED ????
(then again, there could have been an update mixed in between all of this -and I missed it... )

I talked with a good friend of mine on Tuesday who visited Erica this past Sunday.He said he thought she was doing much better and considering the magnitude of this accident,her spirits were ok.I believe her condition is now listed as satisfactory.I don't have any info on Nicole.

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by online Citizen

Blizzard was unconscious. Her face was swollen and there were cuts on her chin. She was in critical condition when she was hospitalized; she was discharged Monday.

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...799/-1/CITIZEN

[Ropetow]

My prayers are with both of them.

[2Blackdogs]

The leak referred to by the Nashua Telegraph means that we hear one week earlier of a criminal case investigation going forward.

Leaked or not, the message returns us to possible criminal charges in this case, the word "planing", drinking at a lakeside restaurant, the possibility of "overserving" (seen here in a previous boating case), and the question whether canned beer is sold at that location or not. These did not become "un-facts" because someone here says so.

Technical details tell us that a minimum of 19mph is required for this cruiser to plane. Typically, an automobile accident at 10mph produces no injuries whatsoever, even for those not belted in, and even without airbag deployment.

So we're left with extrapolations, and 19 mph doesn't do it for me.

Myself, I consider any "determinations of blood alcohol content" to be emphatically ***BWI data***, Skip, whether exculpatory or probative. I see "the embarrassing release" as damaging to any jury pool in this state, and a "change of venue" demanded, perhaps to Maine.

No, not to Maine, forget Maine.

The link provided previously can't be "read" at all, because it's a Podcast! Having it read aloud brings reality to the listener.....and just what a juror would hear. The likelihood of a jury can't be ignored in this case.

You'll have to cut and paste the link to the address bar to hear it. And there is no legal word spelled "affadavit".

[Joe Kerr]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

...
So, when this thread pops up with a new post, it's frustrating to click in, scroll all the way down to only find THE SAME EXACT THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
. ...

sa meredith You are doing it backwards. This method might help relieve some of your frustration. View the forum in Linear Mode. When you want to see the newer posts on a page hit the End button on your keyboard. The display will jump directly to the end of the page without scrolling. Then you scroll up a few posts to see what's new.

This tragedy is horrible regardless of any personal agendas. I don't think it is fair to assume anything about the situation or even if there is probable cause for any court involvement.

We do not know what happened. We do not know if there will be charges or any court involvement and even if we did know, we are all innocent until proven guilty.

This is not a good time for anyone involved or touched by this terrible accident.

[Lakepilot]

I always just hit the > character in the lower right corner of the last post box and no matter how many posts or pages it brings me to the last post. Then I go up from there.

[chmeeee]

Better yet, click on the button to the left of the thread title, it takes you directly to the first post since the last time you viewed the forum.

[2Blackdogs]

This was photographed on the line of trajectory, with the white area being the impact site. The anchor strike is directly in line, having hit just below the window.

What appears as white in color is light pink. The outer, circular, margins show how the hull collapsed upon impact.

This is obviously NOT a 5 foot wall as speculated on here earlier.

[EricP]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

This was photographed on the line of trajectory, with the white area being the impact site. The anchor strike is directly in line, having hit just below the window.

What appears as white in color is light pink. The outer, circular, margins show how the hull collapsed upon impact.

This is obviously NOT a 5 foot wall as speculated on here earlier.

How much of that wall is below the water line?

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

This is obviously NOT a 5 foot wall as speculated on here earlier.

No, but not too far from it. Probably pushing 4 feet anyhow. Compare it to the window height from the bottom of the house as a gauge.

[SIKSUKR]

Based on my caculations from the picture on my screen that wall would be about 4 ft 8 1/2 inches at it's highest point.The granite wall measures 13/16ths on my screen and the house wall measures 1 3/8ths.Divide those 2 numbers and you get the granite being.59% of the house.Based on an 8 ft house wall x .59 that = 4 ft 8.6 inches.Is that so far from 5 ft?What the heck is your point anyway?

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Based on my caculations from the picture on my screen that wall would be about 4 ft 8 1/2 inches at it's highest point.The granite wall measures 13/16ths on my screen and the house wall measures 1 3/8ths.Divide those 2 numbers and you get the granite being.59% of the house.Based on an 8 ft house wall x .59 that = 4 ft 8.6 inches.Is that so far from 5 ft?What the heck is your point anyway?

Thanks Sik, I was going to do that math but you beat me to it- it looked close to me, too!

[2Blackdogs]

I'm sure the investigation has the height measured exactly. There's no better way to determine terminal velocity than that.

The amount of hull out of the water at collision can be easily measured based on the widest scuff marks on the ledge. Just compare that measurement to the widest comparable damage on the hull. A comparison-speed with the same amount of hull out of the water with an identical Formula performance cruiser can determine the speed when striking the island.

The depth of the ledge below the waterline is immaterial.

The 5 foot guess, posted earlier, was retracted by the author.

For comparison, this cruiser collision appeared at Boat-Ed.com., having struck a berm. There were no injuries in this collision.

[VtSteve]

Always important to add "Performance Cruiser" to the sentence. I'd suspect the water level was higher back then, so five feet may be a stretch. I think the boat would have sustained more bottom damage if it had struck at plowing speed, maybe even ran up on the wall a bit. Not really germaine to any argument, I think everyone has indicated the boat was somewhere on plane at the time of impact. The damage from the berm impact you show seems far worse to me.

I'd still guess 25 to 30. Any faster and I'd have to believe the damage would be far greater. But I'm not even close to having the knowledge to arrive at anything more than a WAG. I'm more focused on the why and how of it. I know you have other intentions.

Now that I know there are adult adolescents that go about revving their engines, and bombing down waterways late at night after drinking, I'm against GFBL boats. Once the speed limit is put into place, there will no longer be drunken, obnoxious boaters on the lake.

[Winnipesaukee]

Once the speed limit is put into place, there will no longer be drunken, obnoxious boaters on the lake.

Kind of like how there are no longer 150' violations since the law was put into place.

I'm neither for nor against a speed limit, but that was sarcasm, right?

[VtSteve]

Yup, Yup it was

[B R]

http://www.wmur.com/family/17175493/detail.html#-

[kthy66]

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...4/-1/CITNEWS08

[kjbathe]

When the Dr. Rock report was broadcast last night, the reporter said the driver of the boat died. I questioned what I thought I had heard, but she repeated it again at the end of the broadcast. Today's online posting reads a little differently, noting that a passenger died, but the final paragraph still reads as though the driver died in the crash.

I'm not splitting hairs here in terms of the reporting or writing -- I think she just made a mistake. But after seeing last night's broadcast, I was wondering if the reporter knew something the rest of us had yet to learn.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by kjbathe

When the Dr. Rock report was broadcast last night, the reporter said the driver of the boat died. I questioned what I thought I had heard, but she repeated it again at the end of the broadcast. Today's online posting reads a little differently, noting that a passenger died, but the final paragraph still reads as though the driver died in the crash.

I'm not splitting hairs here in terms of the reporting or writing -- I think she just made a mistake. But after seeing last night's broadcast, I was wondering if the reporter knew something the rest of us had yet to learn.

I heard the exact same thing on the 11pm newscast. It definately perked my ears up. I read the online article today, it says Erica was released from the hospital.
Poor reporting? Or perhaps the facts have been reported wrong from the start...who was really driving the boat?

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

To rephrase WMUR's old slogan, "No one knows New Hampshire like we do!", let me offer a new slogan for WMUR, "No one screws up news reporting in New Hampshire like we do!"

They are the worst when it comes to reporting the news with frequent typos in the on-screen banners, mis-pronounced names of people AND places, incorrect locations on their map of NH when talking about a particular city/town; the list goes on and on!!

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Wolfeboro_Baja

To rephrase WMUR's old slogan, "No one knows New Hampshire like we do!", let me offer a new slogan for WMUR, "No one screws up news reporting in New Hampshire like we do!"

They are the worst when it comes to reporting the news with frequent typos in the on-screen banners, mis-pronounced names of people AND places, incorrect locations on their map of NH when talking about a particular city/town; the list goes on and on!!

Boy, I have to agree with you 110%!

But I actually have a better motto for our "if it bleeds it leads" station.

No one scares New Hampshire like we do....

And their website? My gosh, what a convoluted confusing mess....

But I am wayyyyy off topic here and apologize for same!

Sorry, my rant for the day....but if you are depending on WMUR for accurate and timely coverage on New Hampshire events, you definitely need to broaden your horizons!

[pats fan]

If you think they are bad try reading The Laconia Citizen! They have reported before that a one year old was arrested for driving after revocation of his license and in the same police log reported a 3 year old who was arrested for being drunk. We had a great time for a few weeks emailing the editor every day with every single error that we found. He was rather offended and asked what we had against him. We told him nothing against him, just shocked that the local paper was so poorly written and had so many grammatical and factual errors. Sorry for the quick hijack! Just had to point out the disaster that The Ictizen is. Maybe if enough of us point out errors to the editor he will hire a proof reader.

[Lakesrider]

Baja, I had to laugh. You are so right. WMUR is not on the leading edge of news reporting. Skarupa is the only good thing they have going for it. I couldn't believe it when I watched the Maine news channel getting a guided tour of the tornado wreckage and the WMUR team kept saying they weren't allowed in. Plain embarrassing if you ask me.

Anyway....So who knows what is going on with this investigation? Has any criminal charges been filed. I haven't heard anything about it lately other than the doctor getting a merit citation. I'd like to get a copy of that guys accident scene statement, as to whether he thought alcohol was involved.

I don't agree with the parking lot analogy myself. This woman was the president of a boating Association. She should have known better than to even take the lines off the dock. She should have known her speed was too great for the conditions. Period. She could just as easily called for a taxi. She has no excuse in my eyes at all. I'm also interested to see if this gets swept under the rug because of political ties, and community standings.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Lakesrider

Baja, I had to laugh. You are so right. WMUR is not on the leading edge of news reporting. Skarupa is the only good thing they have going for it. I couldn't believe it when I watched the Maine news channel getting a guided tour of the tornado wreckage and the WMUR team kept saying they weren't allowed in. Plain embarrassing if you ask me.

Anyway....So who knows what is going on with this investigation? Has any criminal charges been filed. I haven't heard anything about it lately other than the doctor getting a merit citation. I'd like to get a copy of that guys accident scene statement, as to whether he thought alcohol was involved.

I don't agree with the parking lot analogy myself. This woman was the president of a boating Association. She should have known better than to even take the lines off the dock. She should have known her speed was too great for the conditions. Period. She could just as easily called for a taxi. She has no excuse in my eyes at all. I'm also interested to see if this gets swept under the rug because of political ties, and community standings.

I don't think there are any taxis that will take you to Sleepers Island at 2 AM.

The authorities know they are under a microscope on the one. Nothing is going to be "swept under the rug".

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Lakesrider

Anyway....So who knows what is going on with this investigation? Has any criminal charges been filed. I haven't heard anything about it lately other than the doctor getting a merit citation. I'd like to get a copy of that guys accident scene statement, as to whether he thought alcohol was involved.

I don't agree with the parking lot analogy myself. This woman was the president of a boating Association. She should have known better than to even take the lines off the dock. She should have known her speed was too great for the conditions. Period. She could just as easily called for a taxi. She has no excuse in my eyes at all. I'm also interested to see if this gets swept under the rug because of political ties, and community standings.

Interesting how you ask IF alchohol was involved and how the investigation is going and then proceed to comdemn her without any official facts at all.You know something the rest of us don't or are you just another troll that needs to stir the pot and give your totally biased opinion based on zero official info.Oh that's right,you already stated that investigation probably won't mean much because it will be "swept under the rug".I really don't understand peoples thinking sometimes.

[topwater]

Interesting how you ask IF alchohol was involved and how the investigation is going and then proceed to comdemn her without any official facts at all.

My question is, WHY HAS THERE BEEN NO OFFICIAL FACTS BROUGHT OUT??
I have refrained from commenting on the topic since it happened. A blood test had to have been taken, what? no information on it? If it was a car accident with the same results, you would know within days if alcohol was involved or not. As someone else mentioned, is it because who she is that information is not being let out? We all know that old adage " IT'S NOT WHAT YOU KNOW IT'S WHO YOU KNOW " . Most of us are saying to ourselves, Who is out on Winnie at that hour who hasn't been where alcohol was being served!!. 1+1=2.
I do not know anyone that was involved so I am not trying to prosecute anyone here, but this hopefully will end soon, and we will know the TRUTH. IMHO if this was some POOR TEENAGER from laconia, we would already know and this thread would have gone away a long time ago.

[Tank151]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Interesting how you ask IF alchohol was involved and how the investigation is going and then proceed to comdemn her without any official facts at all.You know something the rest of us don't or are you just another troll that needs to stir the pot and give your totally biased opinion based on zero official info.Oh that's right,you already stated that investigation probably won't mean much because it will be "swept under the rug".I really don't understand peoples thinking sometimes.

SIKSUKR - Kudos to your response! Everyone here already has a conviction on this tragic accident and the operator of the boat and WITHOUT facts! Great detective work?

[tony1122]

What about the gun that was found on the boat that night?
Who gun was it ?

[sa meredith]

Post number 1?????
Gun???????
Will it ever stop?
I am curious though..I thought the results were due? Anyone know the timetable.
I, for one, am quite familiar with a boater "losing their way."

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

Post number 1?????
Gun???????
Will it ever stop?
I am curious though..I thought the results were due? Anyone know the timetable.
I, for one, am quite familiar with a boater "losing their way."

Can't be anything but a troll...

[webmaster]

Originally Posted by chipj29

Can't be anything but a troll...

Could be. I'll give tony1122 the rest of the day to post where he got this information or some corroboration. If he doesn't his post will be removed.

Thanks to everyone who reported the post.

[tony1122]

a mp officer that was on the boat that night

[ishoot308]

Since when is it illegal to have a firearm on your boat????

Dan

[parrothead]

The gun is kinda irrelevant when there was no evidence that it was fired. If it existed at all.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Oh man what's next, are we going to hear how the CIA projected a false image of the island to cause the crash because one of the occupants learned the "truth" about WTC #7 ?

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Since when is it illegal to have a firearm on your boat????

Dan

Dan

Depends on the type of firearm and if its loaded.



RSA 207:7

II. No person shall have or carry, in or on a motor vehicle, OHRV, or aircraft, whether moving or stationary, a cocked crossbow, a loaded rifle or loaded shotgun, or a rifle or shotgun with a cartridge in a magazine or clip attached to the gun.

III. No person shall have in or on a boat or other craft while being propelled by mechanical power, or in a boat or other craft being towed by a boat or other craft propelled by mechanical power, a cocked crossbow, a loaded rifle or loaded shotgun, or a rifle or shotgun with a cartridge in a magazine or clip attached to the gun.

You also can't hunt deer or bear on the islands.

[Airwaves]

I have stayed out of the fray until now.

I just want to point out that based on what has been written by Skip quoting NH Media at the end of July, and based on a conversation I had with a colleague who works the NH beat prior to the article in the Citizen. I think it's reasonable to assume that the NHMP has decided to seek an indictment.

Why do I say this? The accident occurred on Father's Day and we are now approaching Labor Day. If it were a cut and dry case one way or the other an arraignment would have had already happened or the case would have had already been closed.

I don't know the indictment process in NH so don't jump all over me if the NHMP isn't the agency that legally seeks an indictment.

So I would speculate...there's that word again...that if anyone knows the schedule of the Grand Jury and how and when indiictments are handed down and released, that is the time table to be looking at.

Of course just because an indictment is sought before a Grand Jury it doesn't mean an indictment is automatically handed down, pretty close to it but not automatic.

It's been my experience in MA that indictments are sought to speed up the process of charging someone with a serious crime not to slow the process down unless the evidence is not concrete and the prosecution wants a "second opinon" so to speak.

I am sure Skip or others will correct me if I'm wrong about how it works in NH, but as I understand the process, if you are brought before a Grand Jury as the target of an investigation the prosecutiion lays out its evidence but the target doesn't have defense counsel present and it's all done in secret, closed to the public. It's a one way argument and usually the prosecution gets the indictment.

On the other hand if a person is arraigned in court shortly after the "offense" and pleads not guilty a "probable cause" court hearing is scheduled. That hearing is open to the public, defense is there and presents prelimiary arguments as well as the prosecution and the magistrate or judge decides if there is "probable cause" to proceed to trial.

I may have skipped a step or two but that's the jist of it as I understand the process.

So, because no one has dropped the case declaring that there was no crime and this was just a terrible accident but no one has been arrested or arraigned, I will draw the SPECULATIVE conclusion that at this point it's going to end up before a Grand Jury.

BTW, if there was a gun I doubt that it would be entered into evidence because to my knowledge there was no gunplay. Many merchants that deal in cash carry guns, even in Mass!

[HUH]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Dan

Depends on the type of firearm and if its loaded.



RSA 207:7

II. No person shall have or carry, in or on a motor vehicle, OHRV, or aircraft, whether moving or stationary, a cocked crossbow, a loaded rifle or loaded shotgun, or a rifle or shotgun with a cartridge in a magazine or clip attached to the gun.

III. No person shall have in or on a boat or other craft while being propelled by mechanical power, or in a boat or other craft being towed by a boat or other craft propelled by mechanical power, a cocked crossbow, a loaded rifle or loaded shotgun, or a rifle or shotgun with a cartridge in a magazine or clip attached to the gun.

You also can't hunt deer or bear on the islands.

Says cocked or loaded.. With a licence to carry you can do both.. No there is no hunting on the islands.. at least until the poulation explodes and the herd is starving to death, do they call in the "enviromentalists".

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

You also can't hunt deer or bear on the islands.

So, what is the name given to the occasional event that occurs on Long Island?

Originally Posted by F&G: Frequently Asked Questions - Hunting

What's up with the Long Island deer hunt?
An annual archery hunt takes place on Long Island in Moultonboro, N.H. It is open only to bow hunters who have obtained written landowner permission on a form that can be picked up at Fish and Game headquarters in Concord; or individuals can call the Wildlife Division at (603) 271-2461 to request a form by mail. Attached to the forms are the pertinent rules and laws that govern this hunt. The hunt begins the first weekday in October and runs through December 15 except for certain weekends and holidays that are outlined in the rules. Once the landowner forms are completed, permits must be purchased at Fish and Game headquarters starting August 1.

http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Hunt...qs_hunting.htm

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

RSA 207:7

III. No person shall have in or on a boat or other craft while being propelled by mechanical power, or in a boat or other craft being towed by a boat or other craft propelled by mechanical power, a cocked crossbow, a loaded rifle or loaded shotgun, or a rifle or shotgun with a cartridge in a magazine or clip attached to the gun.

So you're saying the Zuni's mounted on deck are legal but the twin BMG50's that pop out the side ports are best kept hidden ....

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by GWC...

So, what is the name given to the occasional event that occurs on Long Island?



http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Hunt...qs_hunting.htm

Well first thing.... Long Island isn't really an island, is it. If you drive to your cabin you don't live on an island.

There is special permission for hunting on Long because of the exploding deer population. A number of years ago they had to bring in a sharpshooter to reduce the herd.

[HUH]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Well first thing.... Long Island isn't really an island, is it. If you drive to your cabin you don't live on an island.

There is special permission for hunting on Long because of the exploding deer population. A number of years ago they had to bring in a sharpshooter to reduce the herd.

A "bridged island" is not a peninsula.

[Airwaves]

HELLO!!!

And the posts regarding gun rights, hunting on an island and whether Long Island is a real island because there's a bridge have to do with the Diamond Island accident...HOW?

Another Hi-Jacked Thread

[chipj29]

In my opinion, even if there was a gun, who cares? As far as we know, there has been no mention of a gun by anyone involved in the accident. We should not even be discussing it...complete waste of time.

[sa meredith]

So folks...you all realize you gave this gun poster (post #1) exactly what he was looking for. You know that, right?

[gtxrider]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Dan

Depends on the type of firearm and if its loaded.



RSA 207:7

II. No person shall have or carry, in or on a motor vehicle, OHRV, or aircraft, whether moving or stationary, a cocked crossbow, a loaded rifle or loaded shotgun, or a rifle or shotgun with a cartridge in a magazine or clip attached to the gun.

III. No person shall have in or on a boat or other craft while being propelled by mechanical power, or in a boat or other craft being towed by a boat or other craft propelled by mechanical power, a cocked crossbow, a loaded rifle or loaded shotgun, or a rifle or shotgun with a cartridge in a magazine or clip attached to the gun.

You also can't hunt deer or bear on the islands.

It does not mention if a hand gun is allowed.

[Kamper]

All my comments on guns are deleted so further thread jacking is not encouraged.

[KonaChick]

WOW, very enlightening post about guns. I can't imagine why anyone would feel the need to be locked and loaded while boating on Winni...and to think all I carry with me when I'm boating is my sunscreen!!

[VitaBene]

Kona LOL, but if you are permitted to carry you can't leave your weapon in your car (unless gun locked and really secure. It is usually better to take it with you, though I can't imagine carrying on Winni either!!

[chipj29]

The gun discussion in this thread should be dropped IMO. The poster who brought it up has no factual evidence that there was any kind of gun involved in this incident. Move it to a new thread, please!!

[Tank151]

chipj29

I agree! There is NO factual evidence of a gun on this vessel. Let's drop it NOW!

[KonaChick]

I don't like reading the gun comments either and tried to add some levity to the situation with my post but on the same token people have posted lots of things here that haven't been factually based and no one is demanding that those be stopped. What gives? If you think someone is a troll ignore their posts, it's simple! Just my 2 cents......

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by chipj29

The gun discussion in this thread should be dropped IMO. The poster who brought it up has no factual evidence that there was any kind of gun involved in this incident. Move it to a new thread, please!!

Whether or not a gun was on the boat makes absolutely no difference in the cause or the outcome of the accident. Why even bring it up?

[Lakegeezer]

Its been two and a half months since the incident occured. What is the typical delay before public information is released? It had a big impact on the lake community, well beyond those involved and their friends, yet there has been little official information made public. At this point, what's wrong with a little speculation, even if absurd. Maybe it will spur the authorities to put out enough information to change the focus of attention to what really happened.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

Its been two and a half months since the incident occured. What is the typical delay before public information is released? It had a big impact on the lake community, well beyond those involved and their friends, yet there has been little official information made public. At this point, what's wrong with a little speculation, even if absurd. Maybe it will spur the authorities to put out enough information to change the focus of attention to what really happened.

Because of the magnitude of the situation (death involved), I am sure all investigative parties want to ensure they dot their "I's" and crosss their "T's" before releasing anything publicly. I would rather they wait to make sure that whatever is released is based solely on fact and test results, not rumor, speculation, or pending results. Premature conjecture only hurts all parties involved.

Let's all wait patiently and see what the facts are in this devastaing situation.

The only real fact we all know now is that a Father lost his Daughter on Fathers day, and that is tragic...

Dan

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

Its been two and a half months since the incident occured. What is the typical delay before public information is released? ...

A year, or more, is not uncommon.

[Skip]

According to the NHMP the case remains active and under review.

Latest details can be read at the Citizen HERE.

[Winnipesaukee]

Who cares if there was a gun onboard? If there was, good for them.

[AC2717]

Operator of boat in fatal crash charged with negligent homicide

By GAIL OBER
gober@citizen.com


Article Date: Friday, December 12, 2008
The Gilford woman who was allegedly driving the boat that struck the rocks off Diamond Island this June has been indicted by a Belknap County grand jury on two counts of negligent homicide.

Erica Blizzard, 34, was also indicted on one court of aggravated driving while intoxicated for the Father's Day collision that killed Stephanie Beaudoin of Meredith.

The two counts reflect the decision of Belknap County District Attorney James Carroll to present two different theories of the alleged homicide to a jury.

No trial date has been scheduled.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

..anyone know how your boat insurance policy works w/ regard to a negligent homicide indictment.........ouch?...

It should have no bearing on your current policy, as an idictment is not an indication of guilt or innocence; it means the grand jury found enough evidence to warrant a trial.

For those who would like to read the brief news report at the Citizen, please go HERE.

[AC2717]

Insurance is for "stupidity" and I AM NOT SAYING SHE WAS STUPID!
In other words her insurance will react no matter what she did, unless the insurance comopany was mis-informed or lied to on the application, but even then that would mean a cancellation of the policy in a certain amount of time, but even if this was the case, which it obviously is not, if the policy was in force at the time, then it would have to pay out. Now they have a rgith to defend you in a lawsuit as you transfer your rights, but this is a criminal case and unless there is some sort of insurance for that, which I am not sure there is? then the insurance will not take care of the case. There is usually a clause in every insurance policy that if there was a criminally negligent act comitted (and found to be committed is included), They have a right to deny a claim that YOU make for PD and liability against your policy, but in most cases, such as this one, they will still pay to third parties in this type of event, but have fun trying to get standard insurance for the rest of your life, you will be stuck in the pool forever paying higher than average prices due to your experience.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

"...anyone know how your boat insurance policy works w/ regard to a negligent homicide indictment..."

The indictment can't help the effect on future premiums; however, a final decision reached four years ago after a series of under-the-radar court appeals might assist in understanding the provisions of your particular policy. Coverage can be excluded depending on criminal court findings:

"...[The Federal Court's] finding that coverage was excluded under the provision in Section B regarding "any loss, damage or liability willfully, intentionally or criminally caused or incurred by an insured person..."

In other words, any civil suit decision comes "out of your hide" (and not your insurance policy) if you have the above provision in your policy.

[tis]

And as you know if you have served on Grand Jury, only one side is presented ( no defense) and very few are NOT indicted.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Wow, what an incredible mess, 2008 has got to be a year she just wants to forget about. How the heck did this happen?

If the indictment is true (and as far as the BUI is concerned I doubt they would have bothered with it if the BAC did not support it), it happened because she got on a boat impaired and drove it in to an island while going too fast for the conditions.

[jeffk]

Not with boats, cars, jet skis, snowmobiles, motorcycles, or ATVs.

And it's probably not too smart to be skiing, horse riding, using power equipment, and a whole bunch of other stuff while drinking either.

The CDC estimates that every year
13,470 people are killed in alcohol related car crashes,
255,000 people are injured,
$51 BILLION in damage is done.

This is for cars only.

And it doesn't begin to touch on the anguish and grief left behind in the wake of the destruction.


We don't seem to be able to learn this lesson.
And we tolerate the behaviors that create the problem.

We'll see how this plays out in court but I agree that the charges would not have been brought without significant evidence of alcohol impairment, specifically the aggravated DWI charge, which then strengthens (in my mind) the negligent homicide charge.

This is really sad.

[Airwaves]

"...two counts of negligent homicide..."

Two?

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

"...two counts of negligent homicide..."

Two?

From the Citizen story link posted earlier:

The two counts reflect the decision of Belknap County District Attorney James Carroll to present two different theories of the alleged homicide to a jury.

It looks like the Grand Jury found either / both may apply.

[Skip]

You are correct Swampy!

HERE are further details regarding the recent indictment and a recap of the crash, from the on-line edition of the Union Leader.

[fatlazyless]

What needs to be done? The time has come for seatbelts in boats. New Hampshire needs to require a boating seatbelt law.

Hey Rep Sherman Packard, the state rep who said about a hundred times that " 'you know what' is a solution look'n for a problem."....Sherm.... buddy....how about sponsoring a NH boat seat belt law?

Could make doing kayak eskimo rolls a snap!

A seatbelt can be very helpfull.

Last spring, she had a Fastech 35'er w/ twin 525hp V8's for sale for $452,000. Got to wonder if that comes with seatbelts? And, maybe the price has been reduced?

[Phantom]

There is a lot of coverage (obviously) of the incident & Erica. But does anyone know what happened to Nicole Shinopules? She seems to fly completely under the "press" radar. Never heard/read much of anything other than she was taken to Lahey Clinic after the accident.

I'm not being goulish .............. simply genuinely interested!!

[AC2717]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

What needs to be done? The time has come for seatbelts in boats. New Hampshire needs to require a boating seatbelt law.

Hey Rep Sherman Packard, the state rep who said about a hundred times that " 'you know what' is a solution look'n for a problem."....Sherm.... buddy....how about sponsoring a NH boat seat belt law?

Could make doing kayak eskimo rolls a snap!

A seatbelt can be very helpfull.

Last spring, she had a Fastech 35'er w/ twin 525hp V8's for sale for $452,000. Got to wonder if that comes with seatbelts? And, maybe the price has been reduced?

thik of it this way, say the boat flips or goes belly up for whatever reason. then you could drown. More Protection from ourselves is not the answer, better awareness is. The Government has too much already to make us protect ourselves from ourselves. This kind of stuff always come up one some rich or connected family has a issue go wrong and then the mother, all be it she can have a point, goes on a crusade to "PRotect other children from the same issues" Granted this has its uses with Pedifiles and what not, but not oen it comes to me not being able to parent or loose freedoms because of someone else's mistake

Ok off the soap box now

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

What needs to be done? The time has come for seatbelts in boats. New Hampshire needs to require a boating seatbelt law.

Hey Rep Sherman Packard, the state rep who said about a hundred times that " 'you know what' is a solution look'n for a problem."....Sherm.... buddy....how about sponsoring a NH boat seat belt law?

Could make doing kayak eskimo rolls a snap!

A seatbelt can be very helpfull.

Last spring, she had a Fastech 35'er w/ twin 525hp V8's for sale for $452,000. Got to wonder if that comes with seatbelts? And, maybe the price has been reduced?

I know you are not being serious...but would you like to be strapped into any kind of vessel that is taking on water, or even under water?

[fatlazyless]

For doing eskimo rolls in a kayak, it would be very helpfull, because it would make you one with the kayak. It would improve the paddle-ability too. And a seatbelt can be unlocked in a snap.

For just walking down the sidewalk, someone should invent a personal seatbelt with a self-contained airbag!

No....seatbelts could be helpfull in a boat...but should be optional...."it's you life & your choice."

So, does Wal-Mart sell a seatbelt kit? Seatbelts would have been helpfull on that expensive 37' Formula boat that drove straight into a large outcropping of granite bedrock..........ouch.

..............

Seen all the reader comments in today's Union Leader?

[wifi]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

..... someone should invent a ....self-contained airbag!....

What an opening...

[SIKSUKR]

Sometimes that self contained airbag does not know when to deflate his agenda. He can very insensitive to others feelings. I for one am very offended. Give it a rest.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by wifi

What an opening...

I was thinking the same thing ! Must ... put down .... the keyboard .... walk away ... aaargghhh ....

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Seatbelts would have been helpfull on that expensive 35' Formula boat that drove straight into a big flat vertical rock .

I was thinking a working GPS w/obstacle avoidance would have been a better idea. Or a low powered forward looking radar (like those we are starting to see in cars). Or a designated skipper.

Next time you're in Walmart see if any of those are on sale.

re: the personal airbag for walking down the street ... how would you deactivate it so it doesn't go off when ... you know ... you feel the urge to throw down and do 10 ?

[twoplustwo]

This tragedy isn't well served by your unique attempts at humor, FLL.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by twoplustwo

This tragedy isn't well served by your unique attempts at humor, FLL.

This tragedy does not deserve humor.

[Skip]

Three families have been utterly devastated by this crash.

The legal system is now going to determine ultimate responsibility.

My gosh, its the height of the Holiday season.

Could we please leave the sophmoric and insensitive attempts at humor out of the conversation?

[4Fun]

Were there any details of the BAC made public? I personally think there is a big difference in .08 vs .1 or .2somehting....

[Airwaves]

I guess I am a little confused about why the double negligent homicide charge.

This is from a blog by the law firm Burke & Eisner commenting on the Blizzard indictment

Negligent homide is a class B felony and the penalty could be up to 7 years in prison. Negligent homicide that occurs while operating a vehicle or boat while under the influence of alcohol or drugs is a class A felony and the penalty could be up to 15 years in prison.

So is there an issue with the BAC? It seems to me that the prosecutor appears to be trying for the class A felony but may not have the evidence to convict her of that and get the longer penalty so he's bringing the second charge to try to make sure that one of the charges stick?

I note in reading the blog from the law firm that the penalty is not the same for both classes of felony as the Union Leader article stated.

Union Leader: She can only be convicted on one of the charges, both of which carry penalties of up to 15 years in prison.

[jeffk]

Since it seems to me that a vigorous defense would probably challenge any prosecution evidence that it could, the prosecutor may just be trying to be thorough by preparing the second charge. It might also be leverage to force a plea.

It seems to me that defending against the general negligence charge will be very difficult since it is based on what a "reasonable person" would do and almost every boat accident can show some form of negligence, too fast for conditions, insufficient lookout, zigged when you should have zagged, etc.

This is all just speculation since we don't know many critical facts of the case nor what the strategy of the prosecution or defense will be.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

"...I was thinking a...low powered forward looking radar (like those we are starting to see in cars).

BMW has that option: it flashes a dash light visible only to the driver—and vibrates the steering wheel.

Originally Posted by jeffk

"...This is all just speculation since we don't know many critical facts of the case nor what the strategy of the prosecution or defense will be..."

We seldom see terms such as the prosecution's theories of the case, nor The Citizen's use of the terms "alleged driver" and "alleged homicide".

In reading the media's tea-leaves, this may prove to be a difficult trial. I'm seeing the machinations of the defense already in this case: some might call it suborning of a witness.

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

"...What is the typical delay before public information is released...?"

Bad news for politicians are released on Fridays before a weekend: really bad news is released on a Friday before a holiday weekend.

What incentive would there be to delay this release until the week before the Christmas holiday? Would it be to minimize open discussions?

Originally Posted by Skip

"...The legal system is now going to determine ultimate responsibility..."

After appeals, "determining ultimate responsibility" shouldn't take long. As we have seen, jail time (if even warranted in this case) could be as long as four years away—right?

Originally Posted by jeffk

"...Not with boats, cars, jet skis, snowmobiles, motorcycles, or ATVs...And it's probably not too smart to be skiing, horse riding, using power equipment, and a whole bunch of other stuff while drinking either..."

In fog, a New Hampshire aircraft pilot has a good chance of flying into "Cumulo-granitus".

Among boating terms, I prefer the terms piloting or navigating to "driving": "Driving" suggests casual travel. As we have seen time and again, boating—like flying—is serious business.