Can you believe what Innisfree Bookshop did to my 13 yr.old?

[Tired of Waiting]

Did a little looking around for you. This is from the NH Atty. General site:

Under some special instances, no matter how much gets said or written down, a contract may not be formed or the law may not enforce an agreement. For example, some people do not have the age (such as minor children) or mental capacity that the law requires to make their contracts binding. A contract is unenforceable if the purpose is illegal or repugnant to social policy, such as contracts for gambling debts or murder for hire. Contracts brought about by fraud often cannot be enforced. In rare cases, contracts found to be legally "unfair" may not be enforced in whole or in part.

You can go to the link below and complain to the AG.

http://www.doj.nh.gov/consumer/pdf/conscomp.pdf

ToW

[M/V_Bear_II]

Originally Posted by Tired of Waiting

Did a little looking around for you. This is from the NH Atty. General site:

Under some special instances, no matter how much gets said or written down, a contract may not be formed or the law may not enforce an agreement. For example, some people do not have the age (such as minor children) or mental capacity that the law requires to make their contracts binding. A contract is unenforceable if the purpose is illegal or repugnant to social policy, such as contracts for gambling debts or murder for hire. Contracts brought about by fraud often cannot be enforced. In rare cases, contracts found to be legally "unfair" may not be enforced in whole or in part.

You can go to the link below and complain to the AG.

http://www.doj.nh.gov/consumer/pdf/conscomp.pdf

ToW

I'm not sure how any of that relates to the situation at hand. The sale is not a written contract.

If your argument is that the "no refunds" policy is an implied contract, then I would argue that the minor child's parent, by virtue of his or her presence, gave his or her implied consent to the implied contract.

And no law was broken in this instance. If the OP really believes that the bookstore committed an unethical or simply rude act, the place to complain is not the Attorney General, but the Better Business Bureau.

[topwater]

I truely cannot believe for the life of me that someone ACTUALLY IMPLIED, that a store has to take a return back, even though its againest thier policy because of someones age (13). THINKING LIKE THAT is one MAJOR problem this country has, and that is -- LACK OF COMMON SENSE !!!!!!. Don't like going there = DON'T. I hope you do not have a boat, because lack of common sense is not what we need on the lake.

[Kamper]

A contract, in the simplest terms is a quid-pro-quo. "I do/give this and you do/give that." It does not need to be signed or in writing. A price tag is a proposal of sale and is a part of the contract terms which include a merchants legitimate policies.

On those grounds I bet an argument can be made the sale to a minor was an invalid contract since it did not include food, shelter or clothing which are the normal things a minor has a right to contract for.

Unless you can prove fraud the AG will not nromally get involved in a contract dispute as it is civil law to be settled between the parties involved and if one party desires, tried in court.

If a parent or guardian were present during the sale it might be argued they authorised the purchase and therefore the adult is liable not the store.

If I were merchant threatenned witht a suit over a $34 sale I'd tell the complainant "Go ahead." I don't know what filing fees cost but they are more than $34. Plus a wait of 6-18 months for a court date. The case would have to be filed in the district the sale took place. Most employers will not pay you for time off for a civil suit that you are a party to. If either party misses the court date a default decision will normlly be enterred against them.

Even if I agreed with member sea_n_ski, I would suggest this is not worth the fight. I think one of our lawyer members will stop laughing eventually and give their opinion.

BBB is not a government organisation. They are a customer service advocacy organisation. They forward complaints to the concerned merchant and if the complainant does not write again to say the problem is not resolved, they mark the file "resolved" after a certain amount of time. Only after a number of repeated complaints do they note in their reports 'merchant has a number of unresolved complaints regardng ...' (or similiar). They don't actually investigate and they can't rate a merchant's behavior or they would be liable for anything they can't prove as true at the time the statement was made. I have spoken with the BBB once and this is what I was told by them.

(BTW - Merry Christmas everyone. I hope sea_n_ski's children all got presents they enjoyed and will cherish.)

[Tired of Waiting]

Originally Posted by M/V_Bear_II

I'm not sure how any of that relates to the situation at hand. The sale is not a written contract.

This is where you are wrong. It IS a contract. A contract does not have to be in writing. When you take an item and present it to the cashier, they take your money and give you the item and a receipt a valid contract has been executed. Words don't even have to be exchanged.

A contract requires but three things. One party giving something, 2. a person giving compensation for that thing, and lastly a meeting of the minds.

ALL three things are met with any sale in a store even without words being spoken.

A 13 year old is not of legal age to enter into a contract and therefore can void that contract at any time.

ToW

[Diana]

If this was the case, why would any merchant in their right mind make any sale to a minor? If the transaction could be voided for any reason on the grounds that it was not a valid contract?

[M/V_Bear_II]

Originally Posted by Diana

If this was the case, why would any merchant in their right mind make any sale to a minor? If the transaction could be voided for any reason on the grounds that it was not a valid contract?

Exactly.

ToW, I never contradicted anything you said about the definition of a contract. I only noted that a retail transaction, while still a contract, is not written. I added the qualifier in my initial post because there is a lower threshold for compliance and enforcement.

I am pretty sure there is case law on this, but I am not a lawyer, and I'll defer to any civil attorneys on the forum.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by M/V_Bear_II

Exactly.

A retail transaction, while still a contract, is not written. I added the qualifier in my initial post because there is a lower threshold for compliance and enforcement.

I am pretty sure there is case law on this, but I am not a lawyer, and I'll defer to any civil attorneys on the forum.

While there are specific legal contracts a minor child (under the age of 18) cannot enter into....such as a credit card or term payments on merchandise, the entire spectrum of purchasing is not prohibited or conditioned, based on common law practices.

While we all seem to agree that a purchase is a contract, the blanket belief that a minor cannot "enter into a contract" by making a purchase is not correct. Remember, in law & life there is always an exception!

A simple sales transaction is valid if the person making the purchase has the mental capacity to make such purchase. In common law terminology, barring mental incapacitation it is generally accepted that a child greater than the age of seven has the mental capacity to make some purchases. In the case we are talking about, barring some condition we have not been made aware about concerning the 13 year old, then common law would dictate the child had the mental capacity to enter into the purchase and is subject to the same requirements an adult would have.

Could you imagine the chaos that would envelop the retail world if any minor could ignore store policies and demand a full cash refund on a purchase? Especially when you consider that individuals under the age of 18 purcahse an estimated 50 billion dollars worth of merchandise in this country every year!

As always with things legal, a good deal of common sense and life experience must be invoked when trying to interpret the tangles and twists that make up our civil and criminal codes!

[angela4design]

Well, the good thing is that the Forums are on fire again!

But, really, I'm thinking about the POLICY of Innisfree's. I've been there - the sign is prominent. The clerk also mentioned this to me upon my purchase. I was surprised when she mentioned it, but I guess it's been a real problem for them. People do a quick read, then bring books back! How can small businesses survive that over an extended period of time?

It's funny that we're talking about laws as it relates to contracts and minors -I think that's a bit much. It was a hard-learned lesson. And I think that a store credit IS valuable. They have TONS of stuff in that store - games, puzzles, toys, stationery and oh yeah - books!

My guess is that her daughter won't make this mistake again! And as for posting the thread in the first place - a bookstore hasn't gotten as much discussion in a long time!

[Tired of Waiting]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana View Post
If this was the case, why would any merchant in their right mind make any sale to a minor? If the transaction could be voided for any reason on the grounds that it was not a valid contract?

Originally Posted by M/V_Bear_II

Exactly.

ToW, I never contradicted anything you said about the definition of a contract. I only noted that a retail transaction, while still a contract, is not written. I added the qualifier in my initial post because there is a lower threshold for compliance and enforcement.

I am pretty sure there is case law on this, but I am not a lawyer, and I'll defer to any civil attorneys on the forum.

Pleas use this link as a reference.

New Hampshire Department of Justice:
http://doj.nh.gov/consumer/sourcebook/1st_word.html

Please read these word carefully! They are not my words but from the NH Dept. of Justice!

“Under some special instances, no matter how much gets said or written down, a contract may not be formed or the law may not enforce an agreement. For example, some people do not have the age (such as minor children) or mental capacity that the law requires to make their contracts binding.”

The minor is not voiding a contract as the contract never existed in the first place. When I said the minor could void the contract I misstated what I was trying to say. The contract never existed in the first place so therefor the transaction is not enforceable by the merchant.

As for why a merchant would do business with a minor? Because it’s good business. Very few minors try to void their sales and fewer folks know that they can. In the long run the merchant makes out from these sales.

Here’s more from the same link. This goes to the heart of the issue at hand for the credit only policy:

“The terms "unfair or deceptive act or practice" and "unfair method of competition" have developed special legal meanings yet remain difficult to define. Often people have a different idea of what is "unfair or deceptive" than do courts or lawyers. For example, a retail store may have a policy of refusing to grant refunds, granting instead credits only to be used at the store. Many consumers think that such a policy is "unfair" or "deceptive." However, if the policy is fully and accurately disclosed to customers by the store then a court will very likely enforce it.”

Again these are not my words but from the Dept of Justice.

ToW

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by Tired of Waiting

Quote:
Please read these word carefully! They are not my words but from the NH Dept. of Justice!

“Under some special instances, no matter how much gets said or written down, a contract may not be formed or the law may not enforce an agreement. For example, some people do not have the age (such as minor children) or mental capacity that the law requires to make their contracts binding.”

The minor is not voiding a contract as the contract never existed in the first place. When I said the minor could void the contract I misstated what I was trying to say. The contract never existed in the first place so therefor the transaction is not enforceable by the merchant.

ToW

This seems to have already been addressed by Skip in his previous post. There are different levels of contracts. A minor can not sign a charge card or loan agreement but it is common law understanding that a child over the age of 7 DOES possess the mental capacity to participate in simple purchase agreements.

So the child could enter into such a purchase contract and the store does promote its policy. Take the credit and buy something else.