Boat noise laws thrown out?

[LRSLA]

So all the experts are wrong and your right?

The sound level at my steering wheel on my Sea Ray
20 foot bow rider with an 325hsp IO is 86dB. Add the wind noise and your up over 90dB. Add the sun, thirty MPH wind, heat, physical exertion
and after three to four hours on my boat I come off feeling wiped.

Accidents happen because people get tired and get sloppy.

Even car drive education programs push the concept of
being well rested when driving. Hell three hours behind the
wheel of a car is enough to tire me out.

So why is it so hard to believe that three to four hours being bounced around on a lake, fried by the sun and blown by the wind might just bring enough stress to bear on your body to lower your response time.

My only point is that fun day on the lake can be a safe day on the lake.
It sucks when mothers and fathers have to go home after a vacation to our lakes missing part of their family. And in most cases it's because some one just didn't abide by a regulation or didn't have exposure to the fact that recreational boating can be very dangerous.

Fast on the water is fun, but as I have mentioned before fast also means that
bad things happen faster. Noise on the water means that other boaters are distracted and being distracted is never a good state for an operator to be in
on the water.

I try to think of parallels for the high performance boats on the waters.
I think NASCAR is a good one. I don't remember ever seeing a NASCAR
vehicle going down a street in my neighbor hood. In fact NASCAR vehicles are not street legal. So why do the same rules not apply to our national water ways.

Why can a fellow go out and buy a boat with twin 1000hsp engines
practically no exhaust and a top speed of 100Mph+ and run it
were ever he wants. Would this same fellow even think of running a
NASCAR vehicle down his block or running a top fuel dragster down the
street. No, he would never to that. Why, because he would have his car
impounded the first time he tried.

The same rules should apple on the water that apply on the street.

[Coastal Laker]

Originally Posted by LRSLA

The same rules should apply on the water that apply on the street.

Unfortunately LRSLA, your logic won't work in any legislative process you choose to champion. You don't have lines to follow on the water, street signs, or traffic lights. Spring a leak in your car and you're not necessarily going to be in peril. Spring a leak in your boat and you better hope for a quick rescue. We're talking apples and oranges here.

The speed topic will likely be debated for years after we are all gone. The problem is it's unenforceable on water. Radar must be in a fixed/stationary position to work (meaning on land). It doesn't work on a boat. Some people use miles-per-hour others knots. Some boats have a speedometer, others don't. Speedometers measure speed through water, not over land. Radar measures speed over land. There's too many variables to make a valid case on limiting speed.

I think most will agree the problems/violations on the water are mostly due to operator error, inattention, or a lack of knowledge. For that reason, I'd rather raise the bar on education. There's a lot that can be done... and yes, I have contacted a fellow boater in the state legislature with a few ideas that are a win win for the state administration and the boaters.

Stay tuned for more information.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by LRSLA

So all the experts are wrong and your right?

I didn't say that . I simply said each side will weigh the facts and figures to their advantage , much as you are doing right now.
Just like "loud pipes saves lives".....they can get the attention of an inattentive boater with a 20 bowrider who is about to cut in front of a larger faster boat. Just think , they could save your life . Yeah I know that's rediculious , about as rediculous as,

[Quote]Why, because he would have his car impounded the first time he tried. The same rules should apple on the water that apply on the street.[Quote]

but I'm trying to get my point acrossed to you.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by LRSLA

{snip}
I try to think of parallels for the high performance boats on the waters.
I think NASCAR is a good one. I don't remember ever seeing a NASCAR
vehicle going down a street in my neighbor hood. In fact NASCAR vehicles are not street legal. So why do the same rules not apply to our national water ways.

Why can a fellow go out and buy a boat with twin 1000hsp engines
practically no exhaust and a top speed of 100Mph+ and run it
were ever he wants. Would this same fellow even think of running a
NASCAR vehicle down his block or running a top fuel dragster down the
street. No, he would never to that. Why, because he would have his car
impounded the first time he tried.

The same rules should apple on the water that apply on the street.

I'm not sure what the analog is driving at. If the point is noise regulations then I might agree it's a fair comparison (straight pipes on any car would be apropro as well). If it's a speed / danger thing you're trying to compare then I would ask you to consider the case of a Ferrari Enzo or Porsche Turbo or even a Corvette. While not having 1000 HP all of these cars are fast and potentially unsafe if not driven with due care. And yet all allowed on the road. The restrictions apply to use of the car not on the car itself.

.... Off to the Lake to match Upthesaukee's day

[LRSLA]

I was just trying to speak to the issue that some of these boats are truly
racing boats and are not being driven responsibly.

I have witnessed some very poor operation of high performance boats on the lake. It seems that any boy or girl with enough money or high enough credit rating can buy a big fast noisy toy. The issue isn't buying the toys. the issue is that education is lacking and there is practically zero enforcement on the surface waters. The lakes have become the last great lawless frontier.

In Maine, with it's 6000 bodies of water there are less then twenty five wardens on duty at any given time. There are less wardens with IFW today then there were twenty years ago. The classic response i get from boaters testing the regulations is. "the lake are for all of us". My question is when did I stop being part of "all of us". When it come down to it the whole issue is that a lot of boaters just don't care about other people.

You guys on Winne must deal with some of the same economic issue we deal with here. Lake Front property owners pay 65% of all taxes in our town. Most of the properties on the lake are seasonal so owners have no vote in town. LRSLA is members are property owners that pay that 65% to the town. Isn't interesting that these residents are being impact by a very small number of boaters, most of which pay no taxes in town. Our town does float a marine Safety unit.
The budget is .014% of the yearly budget.

In Maine the State enforces regs on the lakes. This is a very frustrating fact.

The only battle I will be fighting is for furthering education and enforcement
presence on the waters.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by LRSLA

So all the experts are wrong and your right?

You obviously haven't been on this forum very long, or you'd know better than to expect any respect for submitting information based on facts. (I'm joking of course, and mean no disrespect to the majority of people on this forum who make an effort to quote and check the facts. And to Cal, who I know was just giving his opinion in this case.)

Originally Posted by LRSLA

The sound level at my steering wheel on my Sea Ray
20 foot bow rider with an 325hsp IO is 86dB. Add the wind noise and your up over 90dB.

With that setup, you must go pretty fast yourself. Also, how is your boat muffled to produce 86 dB (at idle, I assume)?

Originally Posted by LRSLA

Noise on the water means that other boaters are distracted and being distracted is never a good state for an operator to be in
on the water.

So are you saying that the noise of other boats is a significant distraction when you are operating yours?

Consider this:

Maine has the 90/75 dB standard and New Hampshire has the 82 dB standard. Maine uses the 75 dB standard when you are on plane, so assuming the other boat is following the dB rules, your boat (over 90 dB) is louder than theirs(75 dB in Maine, or 82 dB in NH). Under those circumstances, the other boat's noise should not be distracting you at all, since it is not louder than your boat. The other boat would actually be even quieter than I stated, due to the minimum distance you must maintain.

Personally, I would barely notice, let alone be distracted by, the noise of another boat when my boat is also on plane. If I am off plane(and thus quieter and more aware or distracted by loud noise), then I am also going slowly enough that I should have more than enough reaction time to stay on top of what's around me, even going into the Weirs Channel on a weekend afternoon.
I would submit that of the 5 senses, boaters use sight more than anything else, especially when under way in a powerboat. Sound(as a tool for avoiding collisions) would be of much more use to a the operator of a sailboat, which does not produce it's own noise.

In all fairness, I should point out that it is only recently that we as a public have become aware of the profound physiological impact of sound. I have read some articles on noise that specifically state that it is unwanted noise that causes a measurable stress response. In other words, the person in a boat is probably the one least likely to be affected by the noise emanating from said boat, at least in terms of stress and fatigue. I'm not saying that we shouldn't enforce a noise law, mind you.

Originally Posted by LRSLA

I try to think of parallels for the high performance boats on the waters.............
Why can a fellow go out and buy a boat with twin 1000hsp engines
practically no exhaust and a top speed of 100Mph+ and run it
were ever he wants. Would this same fellow even think of running a
NASCAR vehicle down his block or running a top fuel dragster down the
street. No, he would never to that. Why, because he would have his car
impounded the first time he tried.

No offense, but:
What about a high performance motorcycle? Or a Porsche 911 turbo? Or a new Corvette? Any one of those vehicles can double, and probably triple, the highway speed limit. And that's before any performance modifications, all of which are legal if the vehicle still passes emissions.

Now, yes, there are speed limits on our highways, but, as has been alleged on this thread already, certain people are going to find a way break the law no matter what. Personally, if someone wants to buy a brand new sports car and then spend large sums of money to make performance modifications, more power to them. It's not for everybody, but it's certainly legal, and many people choose to do so. Boats should be no different.

I'm obviously assuming that said persons are expected to follow the various laws. Likewise, performance boaters who choose to exercise their right to buy a fast boat have the same obligations as others with regard to applicable laws.

Originally Posted by LRSLA

The same rules should apple on the water that apply on the street.

I think it's safe to say that there are tremdendous differences between operating boats on a body of water, and operating cars on a road.

Perhaps what you meant to say was more along the lines of enforcement, in that you feel that loud cars are not tolerated, so loud boats should not be tolerated either?

If that's your point, no disagreement here, but I would like to point out that all new cars come with mufflers. I am sure that automotive noise standards must exist, and that automobile companies make every effort to comply with those standards. If some automobiles came from the dealer with no mufflers(or if it was an option, like on many boats), I am sure that many people would just leave them as they came, and many more would deliberately choose to purchase a car with no muffler. I'm not saying it's right, just making an observation about human nature.

I get my vehicles inspected once a year, by law. I have never had the dB level checked on any vehicle(including a loud diesel truck) during an inspection. I don't know why. I'm sure that it wouldn't take that much more money to add a dB meter to that diagnostic machine that tests my emissions, and a closed garage is certainly a controlled environment in which to conduct such a test. I suppose that since the majority of cars come with mufflers, it's easier for law enforcement officials to notice an obviously louder than average car.

On the other hand, the only boat inspections I know of are the non-mandatory ones that the Lakes Region Sail and Power Squadron and Coast Guard Auxilary volunteers are nice enough to provide us with free of charge. They don't check our noise levels, and one certainly wouldn't expect them to. Not for free, anyway. When the time comes that all boats are required to be inspected for emissions and/or noise on a regular basis, I will certainly get in the (undoubtedly long) line along with everyone else. Even then, I have no doubt that some on this forum will claim that many boaters will rush home from the inspection and remove their mufflers, or do all kinds of other things that will probably wreck the engine, in exchange for the ability to violate the noise laws(until the engine melts, that is).

That's why I think that the current strategy of pulling over the boats that sound too loud, and making those boats submit to a dB check, is probably the best way to go right now. If anything, it makes it a lot harder for someone to try to 'fix' their exhaust for a once a year test, as they never know when they will be required to submit to another test. I heard of one boat that was tested several times this year, because it was very close to the limits, and different MP officers would hear it going by, pull the guy over, and test him. I suppose that guy would prefer a once a year test.

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

(informal SPL measurements) Only problem would be the MP getting antsy about > headway speed passes

Originally Posted by LRSLA

The operational test in Maine is the same for the most part as the NH test.
Most agencies will not use it due to the inherent danger of the test.

Actually, thats a great point. I had not thought about this until I read your posts. Like most boaters, I carefully follow the 150' rule. I would be very nervous blowing by another boat at top speed as the test conditions require.

A friend commented on the fact that he found the dB test a bit scary(and this is a very experienced, skilled boater I am talking about) specifically because he had to bring his boat barely 50' from the (moored) MP boat, including the second set of passes at full throttle.

Now, I'm aware that the obvious problem with scrapping a speed test in favor of an idle-only test is that a boat could pass at idle, but not at WOT. On the other hand, I would like to point out that most high performance boats(like the cars mentioned above) do not normally run at anywhere near their top speed. I personally spend 95% of my on-plane time at or under 3000 rpm. And of the remaining 5%, it's rarely at WOT. Just because I can go faster, doesn't neccesarily mean that I want to. As an aside, the majority of performance boats are now sold with(and many owners are switching to) the 4-blade props, as they provide faster planing and greater (fuel)efficiency at lower (i.e., cruising)speeds, at the expense of top speed, where the 3-blade prop is superior. Given what stainless steel props cost, it's a significant investment for the boat owner, I might add.

In my opinion, the dB test should change in one or both of the following ways:

1-Only use the half-throttle passes.(Or idle plus half-throttle.) The exhaust will be out of the water once the boat is on plane, and it's still a good indicator of the WOT dB level. The engine mfr plate usually states the max rpm, so the officer in the tested boat could watch the tachometers.

2- Increase the measuring distance to 150' or more. Not only is this safer than the 50', but it more accurately duplicates the real-world condition due to the fact that boats are supposed to be 150' from each other, as well as the shoreline or any docks, swim floats, etc. Personally, I wouldn't want to be nearly that close to any object at WOT. I'd rather see 200' or more for the testing boat, plus a buffer zone where the tested boat is circling around, but that's just me. Also, just for the record, I fully understand that if the distance between the test boat and the testing boat increases, the max dB allowed must decrease. I'm not trying to trick anyone here.

Rob

[Cal]

Rob,
Just a little side note about the WOT db test. I'm from NJ and they did away with that a number of years ago because they didn't want to be responsible for having you operate your boat at full throttle. Since most offending boats are probably faster than average , suppose someone had a mishap or broke something like a $25,000 engine at 80mph or better? Laywers would be circling like fresh water sharks .
I'm like you Rob, I have 41 hours on the engines so far this year and most is 3000 rpms or less.This still will get me 50 mph. Wide open throttle time is probably less than 10 minutes.

LRSLA,
Those noise figures you gave for your boat DO seem a wee bit high
Remember " People in glass house shouldn't throw stones".
As for stress , being back home now , yesterday I made a 104 mile (round trip) lunch run. Total running time about 2 hours and 50 minutes including NWZ's. Riding in something that weighed probably 8000 (including 130 gallons of gas and 5 passengers) I personally felt great!

[LRSLA]

Hey I think Offshore boats are great if the are truly
Offshore. I also think , YES it is possible to have a great
relaxing day cruising the coast.

As for my sound traces, the data is the data,
Thats why we have so many pissed off property owners
up here. We have a problem because there is an real issue.

Offshore boats don't belong on a lake that is less then a mile wide
with hills on both sides to reflect and intensify the sound.
Unless the boats have been adapted to run responsibly on those waters.

I don't know why you keep saying, "don't throw stones".
I am considerate of others, my boat is legal in every respect.

The only issue is that OS boaters have been throwing proverbial stones
at my proverbial glass house.

I think is is important once again mention the harassment that
freedom loving and preaching fellows on OSO have leveled against
myself and others that have simply exercised our own right to
free speech.

[Audiofn]

I have made it to the bottom of all this and I am almost at a loss for words..... ALMOST. First off this STINKS of the Salem Witch trials. The LRSLA talks a lot about "safty" but lets be honest hear and just say that if it was not for the LRSLA's impression that Offshore boats are to loud then they would not be in existance today. The LRSLA seems to be saying that all of us Offshore guys have ignored what they are doing. I beg to differ. We have often talked at great length about this issue. As you can see Biggus and myself have spent a great deal of money to comply with the laws that are on the books.

The moving test is one that is JUST PLAIN DANGEROUS! I would NEVER drive my boat at WOT with in 150 feet of anyone if they want me to or not. Now the law says that they want us a LOT closer to that. To that I reply NO WAY. What happens if something breaks on my boat and I hit some one? We all maintain our boats to the best of our ability and take a lot of pride in them. However STUFF CAN BREAK. I refuse to take kids on my Offshore for this very reason. I have been on boats that parts have broken on and felt the effects. So to ask me to not only put other people at that risk NO WAY. The current standing test is fine and it is safe. Since we seem to have said that the boat has to pass with the exhaust open and closed I firmly believe that the standing test is the ONLY safe way to do this.

Now I would like to poss to the LRSLA what if my Donzi does not pass? This is a VERY rare boat (only 8 made to the best of the records that I have been able to find and God only knows how many are left of those 8) This boat is 100% originall and that is the only way that it holds its value. To make any canges would seriously hurts its value. This is not a loud boat IMO but I am not sure if it will pass or not. My big boat, adding the exhaust had no adverse effect on the value so I had no problem making the changes. So is it really fair that I have to either not use my boat or ruin its value? I mean one of your coplaints seems to be that our boats hinder your enjoyment of your property. Well what about ME? What about my ability to enjoy my property and my boat?

I own land on the lake also, I HATE jetskiers, they have cut me off, run into me, and on and on. I would NEVER think to try and get them to stop doing what they enjoy. Edjucation so that they know how to be a better boater if fine and probably smart but telling them to stop, no way.

As for offshore guys being drunks and inconsiderate to the land along the lake, I would say that being on the river the people that come up the river the slowest are the offshores. I constantly see jet ski's, renters, and the alike flying up the river, some even on plane! I also CONSTANTLY see people letting their kids hang their feet over the bow. This is illegal, VERY dangerous, and NEVER enforced. I have watched on many occasions the patrol just drive right on past. To the alcohol issue I find that most offshore people do not drink and drive. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but I am willing to bet that on any given day there are more drunks out there in bow riders and fishing boats then offshores.

As for the abuse that you took on Offshoreonly I have to say what do you expect? You are trying to take away something that is very important in our lives. This is not just a hobby that we do once in a while. Most of us stay awake dreaming about what our next boat will be. We all spend a significent portion of our income on our boats and want to be able to enjoy them the few times a year that we can actually use them with out being targeted by your organization. So some of the guys on OSO want to fight back. I do not think that ANY of the harsh stuff was said by anyone that actually lives up in the area or has probably ever visited the lake. Most of it is guys venting their frustrations as we see OUR freedoms taken away from us.

Now you are probalby ready to say what about my freedoms.... Well what is the percentage of time that Offshores are going past your house? How many on a bussy day? I am willing to bet that it is less then 5 and that is a bussy day. I know that most of the boats on the river only go out maybe once a week. Heck who can afford to run them with the price of gas these days!! So it is really a VERY small percentage of the time that you are "inconverineced" So in the interest of "being a good neighbor" why can't you just let it go?

I also have to agree that to say you can not have a conversation with a person that is 3 feet away is obsurd. I have been to poker runs with hundreds of boats running louder exhaust then you have ever heard and can have a conversation no problem. My example of this is the 1000 Islands poker run. We were in the channel and about 150 feet away from the fleet and my wife and I were talking at normal volumes on shore. So be honest. You realy do not have to yell. If you say yes then lets do a test. Both you and I will stand on your property and we will have the "worst offenders" all drive by and you and I can see how bad it really is. Heck maybe I am wrong but I do not think so.

Lastly I hear you kid likes them, I heard him in the video

[Jan]

Originally Posted by Audiofn

Biggus and myself have spent a great deal of money to comply with the laws that are on the books.

I really respect you and Biggus for doing that. I have no complaints with any boat that is operated safely and within the law. The problem is you two are the ONLY "offshore" owners I've ever seen respond like that.

Unfortunately anyone that is concerned about excessively loud boats is usually shouted down and told "If you don't like it leave" or Will's classics "offshores...will become louder, people just need to learn to live with it" and "How do you get off saying that a preferrably loud boat is a problem?". Many (not all) offshore owners come off like bullies who really don't care about the effects their boats can have on others around them (IMHO).

I'm really not trying to pick a fight with you. I just wish that other offshore owners could discuss this without the often arrogant "eat my exhaust" attitude. I think you can see that attitude in many of the messages posted here. It really gets my blood boiling that some people can be so selfish and inconsiderate. I believe those attitudes force concerned people to form groups like the LRSLA.

[LRSLA]

What are we talking about here, recreational boating.

So your TOTAL enjoyment of your recreational boat
supersedes my ability to enjoy my home?

Lets see HOME>>>>BOAT //// FAMILY LIFE >>>> FUN PARTYING

Which should out way the other?????

I think this is the issue that really isn't appreciated for lack of better
term by OS's. Hell the issue and stress and the harassment had me so worked up that I ended up in the emergency room in Bridgton with chest pains.

How about the cost to me in medical bills. Now you might forward that I have otherissues that caused this hospital visit. I would forward that the noise and the Harassment stressed me out so much that I practically had a nervous breakdown.

SOME PEOPLE RESPOND TO NOISE DIFFERENTLY. NOISE EFFECTS
SOME PEPLE MORE THEN OTHERS. There do you understand now.

You can forward all you like that your noise is not disruptive, it is and
it is to the extent I am forwarding. Why do you think I am spending the
time on this forum, I love Winne, great lake, but I other thing that I would rather be doing.

Your right my kids could not believe the noise that ONE SPEED put out.
You do hear them on the video, hey they are six years old.
So your pointing out that you share something in common with six year olds, no kidding.

What you don't hear on the video is what my kids also say when an OS goes by the house. "there go the BOZO boats" Of course they are responding to the impact that the boats have had on my life, they are my kids, they love me.

As for the number of time OS boats go by my house on a weekend day,
how about thirty to forty times. I figure I have at least a combined hour or
noise from boats a day on a weekend day.

Personally the only thing I care about is my family and my health and the
integrity of my investment in my home.

If you buy a boat that can't be run legally deal with it. There is a reason it's not legal.I'm tired of being gentle on this issue. Obviously you don't believe that I have been impacted by the noise on the lake. And I am not a single voice here.

I have spoken to hundreds of residents that feel just as I do and at the same level. The laws have been on the books for years, nuf said.

One last thing, when a group online holds a forum were they malign and
threaten and plan ways to F#@$K with a regular decent fellow that is only being active in his community, then that forum is nothing more then a MOB.
A bunch of uncivilized lawbreaking jerks.

Now in fairness OSO has some 22,000 members. I am not naming names,
you know who you are, I have the posts from OSO, your on the record.
Those same posts have been emailed to Maine IFW and the town of Naples
Select Board. The goings on, on OSO are wrong. The admins should
shut down a thread that exhibits the post that I have seen.

[Audiofn]

"What are we talking about here, recreational boating.

So your TOTAL enjoyment of your recreational boat
supersedes my ability to enjoy my home?

Lets see HOME>>>>BOAT //// FAMILY LIFE >>>> FUN PARTYING

Which should out way the other?????"

Well it depends on how you prioritize things. My boating is a way for me to blow off steam. To enjoy myself after a stressfull week of working from 6am to 2am each day. My family enjoys going out on the boat and having a good time, it is some of the best quality time that we spend together. Why is it that your house is more "valuable" then my boat? That is like saying your time is worth more then mine.... Always hated that.... Besides some of these boats cost more then yours and my house......

"I think this is the issue that really isn't appreciated for lack of better
term by OS's. Hell the issue and stress and the harassment had me so worked up that I ended up in the emergency room in Bridgton with chest pains.

How about the cost to me in medical bills. Now you might forward that I have otherissues that caused this hospital visit. I would forward that the noise and the Harassment stressed me out so much that I practically had a nervous breakdown.

SOME PEOPLE RESPOND TO NOISE DIFFERENTLY. NOISE EFFECTS
SOME PEPLE MORE THEN OTHERS. There do you understand now."

No I do not understand now. You youself said that there could be other heath issues that cause your chest pains..... You sound to be a bit of a dramma queen hear. How about me and all the hassles and money that I had to spend due to your organization? Do you take into account the effect that you have had on my life? NO YOU DO NOT. All you care about is your life and YOUR property. Well if you wanted ON GOLDEN POND then you moved to the wrong place. We all have complied with the law now you want to make the laws MORE strickt. Plus I have to question the sanity of some one that would even step foot into the Bridgton emergency center.

"You can forward all you like that your noise is not disruptive, it is and
it is to the extent I am forwarding. Why do you think I am spending the
time on this forum, I love Winne, great lake, but I other thing that I would rather be doing.

Your right my kids could not believe the noise that ONE SPEED put out.
You do hear them on the video, hey they are six years old.
So your pointing out that you share something in common with six year olds, no kidding.

What you don't hear on the video is what my kids also say when an OS goes by the house. "there go the BOZO boats" Of course they are responding to the impact that the boats have had on my life, they are my kids, they love me.

I am sure your kids love you and that is the best thing that a father can have. You and I also know that they got BOZO boats from you, and you made fun of me being like a 6 year old? Hey if your 6 year old thinks our boats are cool that is fine by me. He can not like them, also fine by me. I just hope that some day he will make up his own mind about the issue not the one sided story that he seems to be getting from you. I have always said that to be far right or far left is a very bad thing.

"As for the number of time OS boats go by my house on a weekend day,
how about thirty to forty times. I figure I have at least a combined hour or
noise from boats a day on a weekend day.

Personally the only thing I care about is my family and my health and the
integrity of my investment in my home.

If you buy a boat that can't be run legally deal with it. There is a reason it's not legal.I'm tired of being gentle on this issue. Obviously you don't believe that I have been impacted by the noise on the lake. And I am not a single voice here.

I have spoken to hundreds of residents that feel just as I do and at the same level. The laws have been on the books for years, nuf said.

One last thing, when a group online holds a forum were they malign and
threaten and plan ways to F#@$K with a regular decent fellow that is only being active in his community, then that forum is nothing more then a MOB.
A bunch of uncivilized lawbreaking jerks."

40 times in a day!!! COME ON!!! You are dreaming and exagerating. When I go out it is up the lake and down the lake as do most of the boats that you are complaining about. So you are saying that there are 20 of us going up and down the lake in a day. I am not trying to belittle what you seem to be going through, however I am saying that you are EXAGERATING to a vary large extent the problem. You CAN have a conversation with a person that is 3 feet away from you, but you say that you can not. 40 passes a day... Not on the bussiest of them. As for the people that threatened you, some did, some did not, and I disgree with the ones that did.

"Now in fairness OSO has some 22,000 members. I am not naming names,
you know who you are, I have the posts from OSO, your on the record.
Those same posts have been emailed to Maine IFW and the town of Naples
Select Board. The goings on, on OSO are wrong. The admins should
shut down a thread that exhibits the post that I have seen."

People will be people and as you see them attacking you, can't you see that what you are doing is attacking us?

[Audiofn]

Just curious:

Have you ever recently been to concerts, the symphony, sporting event or anything similiar?

Are you going to tell your sons that they can not go to a concert because the sound will be to loud and will raise their stress levels?

Earlier you said that your gradfather I believe it was was part of the Pep Boys deal. Do you still own stocks in the company? If so do you condone the fart can mufflers that they sell to all the kids for their cars?

Why is it that you do not go after bikes with loud exhaust? Is it due to the fact that you are scared of the threats that you will recieve from them, or the fact that you know that they are more organized then us?

Jon

[LRSLA]

I don't enjoy concerts, and I would be hard pressed to compare belching illegal boat exhaust to a Symphony.

The acceptance of noise is directly proportional to the perceived appropriateness of the noise event. SO noise at a race track is enjoyable because it is appropriate. Noise in your back yard might not be perceived as appropriate. This is what causes the impact and the stress caused by the event.

If my children want to attend a concert I might tell them to wear ear protection to protect their hearing. Once gain one expects high volume sound at a concert. People don't go to concerts to sleep or read books or talk on the phone.

As far as the impact on my health by noise. Please don't even assume to
pass judgement on this issue. Health impact caused by noise is so well documented that to suggest other wise is rediclulous. If I can acknowledge your enjoyment of your recreation whay can't your accept that it might be impacting my household.

I have nothing to do with Pep Boys, it is a publicly trade company if you own some stock and are not happy then sell your stock. Yes a family member was instrumental in building the company, so???

As for bikers on the streets, that can be some one else's battle.
I have spoken to individuals that are heavily impacted by biker noise.
Some towns are cracking down on this problem. There is one town on Long Island that set up road blocks this summer and every bike that came through had to be tested. As far as the issue it does replicate some of the issues we face on the lake.

One interesting part of the biker issue is that the noise does not carry as far.

As far as attacking you. I really don't think you can equate my requesting enforcement of on the books regulations with group sponsored harassment of an individual and his family.

I didn't come to your house at 2:00am and rev my engine at 90dB. I didn't drive by your house all day raking your shore line. I didn't call you late at night and tell you to leave town. I didn't flood your cell phone with bogus phone calls and disrupt you business activity. I didn't drag you through the mud online and level all sorts of personal attacks on a public online forum. I didn't call the Maine DEP on you and file false complaints.

All I did was start a safe boating and quiet lake association. Why because hundreds of residents supported wanted a voice. Why because I was driven to action because boats were operating illegally and brutally impacting my life. Why because I have spent twenty years on this lake and it is just in the last four that this noise issue have become a serious issue.

I will be very busy with work in the next week. I will not be able to post for another week.

I feel like I have to forward some words of wisdom.

The only thing that comes to mind is, If the actions of another begins to impact another, then that must be acknowledged. and the activity that is causing the impact must be mitigated.

The mitigation must be carried out , out of respect for others. There are at least 750 boats on our lake, 20 are causing the impact. I hope that we can come to a place were we can work on this issue together.
I am always open to communication. I always work very hard to be fair.

[Audiofn]

Originally Posted by Jan

I really respect you and Biggus for doing that. I have no complaints with any boat that is operated safely and within the law. The problem is you two are the ONLY "offshore" owners I've ever seen respond like that.

Unfortunately anyone that is concerned about excessively loud boats is usually shouted down and told "If you don't like it leave" or Will's classics "offshores...will become louder, people just need to learn to live with it" and "How do you get off saying that a preferrably loud boat is a problem?". Many (not all) offshore owners come off like bullies who really don't care about the effects their boats can have on others around them (IMHO).

I'm really not trying to pick a fight with you. I just wish that other offshore owners could discuss this without the often arrogant "eat my exhaust" attitude. I think you can see that attitude in many of the messages posted here. It really gets my blood boiling that some people can be so selfish and inconsiderate. I believe those attitudes force concerned people to form groups like the LRSLA.

Yes I agree that there are Offshore power boaters with that attitude. However there are other types of boaters with the same attitude when it comes to other things. I could also say that people that want the lake quite take it to the different extream. "you either have a quite boat or you can not boat with out getting a fine......". EVERY person that I know of on that lake have taken measures to quite their boats if they do not fall into the legal limits. One poor guy had to do it twice as his tips fell off because his son did not tighten them down.

As far as that attitude that has been taken on other web sites I guess they are not in the area and as I said most do not visit the lakes so you can not put much weight in what they say. I know that all of us on the river have taken action to quite our boats. I thought that would be enough but it does not seem so.......

Jon

[Cal]

Originally Posted by LRSLA

.

Offshore boats don't belong on a lake that is less then a mile wide
with hills on both sides to reflect and intensify the sound.

I think is is important once again mention the harassment that
freedom loving and preaching fellows on OSO have leveled against
myself and others that have simply exercised our own right to
free speech.

"Hills that reflect and intensify sound"??? Didn't you forget the part how wooded hillsides act as a natural sound absorber? Sound relects best off of smooth hard surfaces , like a canyon wall , not a tree lined hillside. The leaves disrupt any reflections and certainly don't intensify it. Why do you think you DON'T get an echo in a wooded valley??? . Oops , I guess you forgot that.

As for harassment.....only because groups like LRSLA make us look like the greatest scurge of the Earth with ONE SIDED arguments and come at us with both "guns blazing". You poke a dog with a stick enough and your gonna get bit....be nice to him and you get a loyal friend. Not that OSO is a bunch of dogs but you seem intelligent enough to get my point.

Could you define "Offshore" boat. My title states "powerboat". The state registration denotes it as "cruiser" as opposed to "open boat'" or "runabout" because it has a cabin. Nowhere does it state it's to be called , or to be used for "offshore" purposes. I think the term "Offshore" is way over used and exploited by groups who are trying to ban them simply by their misunderstood and over emphasized name.

[LRSLA]

See we differ on a major point.

I believe there is never a justification to act as a wild dog.

And I specifically mentioned that there are many members of OSO.
I am sure that most members would never act in an
inappropriate manner.

As for the sound of the hills issue. I have posted a document that describes
how sound wave move in a lake environment. There are many issue associated with reflection of sound waves. I think the document say it batter then I could.

As for offshore boats, I should define that the only issue that people have with HIGH PERFORMANCE boats is the noise issue. No one is trying to ban anything.

And As I mentioned in the past, noise enforcement was a small part of the
Warden activity. The only reason we were out on the lake taking reading is that noise has to be quantified. We needed proof that the noise level was as loud as we thought it was. When every boat tested fails the tests we know we have an issue.

I understand your issues with LRSLA activity. We all need to try to put our selves in the other guys shoes. This issue didn't come to boil over night.

[Cal]

[QUOTE=LRSLA]See we differ on a major point.
I believe there is never a justification to act as a wild dog.
[QUOTE]


There we go adding words to what I said


And no , there major point here is , if LRSLA took a more synergetic approach , I'm sure a win/win situation could arise.

Thanks for posting that article. It proved my sound squelching effect of the land like I was saying

[LRSLA]

Sorry for the addition, ok just DOGS.... more then ONE... :-)

As for the article, the point that it makes is that a
lake acts like an amphitheater. In essence a lake and the
surrounding geological structure is a very efficient
focuser of sound waves.

I think there is a place for us to come together on
boating safety.

On the noise issue, if boaters were willing
to be tested operational an were willing to muffle to a set level
i think most lake residents could live with an 80db limit.
This would be 150% in intensity over 75dB. I think the wardens
would go for this also. But there would have to be a concerted effort
by all to meet this standard.

We could also work on safety zone issues and times of operation.
We get a lot of complaints from Brandy Pond due to late night
operation. We also get a lot of calls on noise issue in monday cove
and up lake. On sebago raymond cape has had a lot of issues with
noise and safety zone violations. Witches Cove, Muddy River Bog
has been having issues with head way speed violations and noise
violations.

[another 1]

I too am a Naples boater,you didn't see much of me on Long Lake this year due to the loud boat issue.I'm another one of those loud,obnoxious boaters,but unlike the rest,I kept a low profile and tried not to bring any attention to myself.I'm equipped with silent choice and kept my pipes quiet all season in fear of being stopped and ticketed.Now the season has come to an end and I look back on the worst boating season of my life.I've had my boat on this lake for 8 seasons without any trouble from anyone,always got the thumbs up from passing boaters.Not anymore.How relaxing can it be when your constantly boating on egg shells,wondering if your next in line to be hung?Well no more of it,I have as much right as anybody to be on the water and I will not tollerate such stupidity.LRSLA,you remind me of a kid who throws rocks at a hornets nest then cries when he gets stung!I'll do whatever it takes to make my boat pass,just barely,then I have a special spot on long lake to try it out,all day,everyday.BIGGUS,your boat rocks,I've NEVER heard anyone tell me different,even my 74 year old Mom loves it.Maybe next season the whole gang can get together and raft on Long Lake,I know a great spot.Thumbs up to all those hot boats!

[tricia1218]

I have read through all of these post and I have just one question, I apologize in advance for my ignorance. Does a boat benifit from a louder exhaust ?

[Cal]

Some do...most don't. It depends mostly on the size of the engine. An engine is basically an air pump. The more in , the more out , the more power. When it comes to very large engines , a "less restrictive" exhaust is an advantage.
This usually equates to louder

[KonaChick]

another 1.... why would having a quiet exhaust make your boating experience so horrible?

[Cal]

It's a guy thing

[LRSLA]

This message is to "Another 1".

I cannot believe how nasty and devoid of care
your posting is.

Don't you understand that having fun on a boat does not equate to
being able to live in peace in your house.

You can move your boat, You can muffle your boat.

I CAN'T MOVE MY HOUSE.

My house isn't emitting illegal levels of noise.
My house isn't impacting thousands of residents a day.
My house is for raising a family and living in, it is my
largest and most important investment. Can you say the
same about your boat?

Put your self in my shoes. Think about the one thing that
upsets you the most, it could be people who don't like illegally loud boats.

Then realize that I feel that same level of frustration , maybe even more.

But this is my house, my home, were I am raising a family and seeking rest and peace. I have owned my land for ten years. If this issue existed when I was looking at the land to buy, I would not have purchased. Yet it didn't, this is a new issue.

[another 1]

I like all boats,I don't care what you ride in as long you get out and enjoy the water.Unfortunately I chose a performance boat that has now been one of the targets of the lake.Yes,I can have a ball with a quiet boat,however,not when it's the type of boat that's been targeted for an hour or so of testing.That's not my idea of an afternoon of boating.As I said,it's like boating on eggshells.I also have a performance engine that should be run with the pipes open after a certain rpm.I never dared to run above that rpm in fear that I'd be the next in line for the ticket.Whether it passes or not,it puts a damper on the day.My boat spent too much time at the dock because I wasn't taking any chances.I purchased my boat 8 years ago,before the laws were a problem.Had it been a problem then I wouldn't have bought it.I purchased my home 9 years ago,there were only 10 houses on my road,now there are 100.Had I known this 9 years ago I wouldn't have bought it.Sound familiar.Times change,we need to adjust to the changes.Your making the problem way bigger than it is.By targeting us,perfomance boaters will target you,maybe a few extra rpms as they pass by.You haven't made any friends by doing this.

[madrasahs]

Originally Posted by another 1

"...By targeting us,perfomance boaters will target you,maybe a few extra rpms as they pass by.You haven't made any friends by doing this."

Having read elsewhere of the threats and intimidations made against "LRSLA", his restraint and persistence is admirable. The "Marine Mafia", as I referred to them earlier, is alive and well as suggested by the above. It gets worse -- much worse.

Help may be on the horizon for beleagured shoreline residents: California harbormasters are now enforcing a 75dB noise limit measured from the ocean's shoreline. It's called the "Quiet Waters Act", and it looks like there's some noise pollution activity in Naples, FL, and in lakes in New York State regarding the offshores.

Imagine that: Offshores are being targeted for noise pollution offshore!

[Sschaar]

There's absolutely no reason for a boat to be so loud it disturbs other people. It's against the law for that very reason. If you want to enjoy your toy take it out in the ocean. Earth is seventy five percent ocean. I would think you could find a quiet little corner to call your own. But as far as the lake is concerned, I hope the marine guys hold you up three hours, and let you go with a fist full of paper.
If you had the worst summer of boating ever, I guess that means mine was better then I thought it was.

[LRSLA]

Since you don't quite get my drift yet lets try a different
direction.

Since noise is considered a form of pollution, i.e.,,noise pollution.
Since there is a legal limit to noise supposedly for a reason, i.e.,,,
because levels above a certain dB cause impacts.

So lets just say that when you operate your boat illegally you are
polluting the lake environment.

Noise regulations were not developed in an arbitrary manner.
The regulations for the most part were developed by the manufacturers associations.

The same guys you bought your boat from. This is one of the problems. People are buying boats from manufactures that are not telling the new owners were their boats are legal and were they are not legal. A boat certified to operate at 92 dB will NOT be legal to be sold, operated or be resold in the State of Maine.

Maine State bill LD-1280 went into effect in September of 2003. This bill increased the fines for violations of the noise regs and forced compliance with the regs with and with out cutouts in-place. LD-1280 also made the operation of a boat that was in violation of the noise regs an illegal act for the first time in state history.

This law change did not happen in a vacuum. State Senators and Representatives sponsored the bill. IFW supported it, the IFW committee voted unanimously to forward it to the State legislature for a vote. The Maine Recreational Boat Manufactures Association spoke in support of the Bill. The legislature voted it into law and the Governor signed the bill, thus it became law in the State of Maine.

So as you see to focus on me as a source of your frustration is not really appropriate or correct. As density increases in a region, as you have eluded to, regulatory activity actually increases.

The increased enforcement on the lakes regionally is directly related to the increase in the number of boats and the increased traffic. So the fact that an area increases in seasonal or year round population density does not correlate to an automatic increase in environmental pollution. Is enforcement agencies or not responsive or effective the impact of pollution will increase as population increases.

But to say that I am blowing the issue out of proportion with out even acknowledging my data acquisition is to forward a non-supportive statement. I have scientific data that shows serious noise violations. I have spent many hours acquiring this data with certified very precise measuring devices. What do you base your assertion, "that I am blowing this out of proportion "'on?

I understand your feelings regarding, "walking on egg shells". I want you to be able to feel comfortable on the lake and enjoy your water craft.

It is kinda like the feeling when you are operating your car above the speed limit and you don't have a radar detector. You always feel one step away from a big ticket and points on your license. We kinda push the limit and operate at a speed that we think is at a level were we won't see the
blue lights in our rear view mirror.

Well the boating regs are no different. If you get caught operating illegally your going to get a fine. I know you understand this relationship. If the issue was speeding on my road I would have called the sheriff. The sheriff would have set up a speed trap and traffic would slow down for a while.

The noise issue isn't any different. Harassing me won't change anything, so you might want to look into some mufflers. just make sure you fully understand the regs. i would be happy to answer any questions you might have regarding the regs.

[Sschaar]

You bring up many valid points.
There is one I'll take exception to.

Quote: "People are buying boats from manufactures that are not telling the new owners were their boats are legal and were they are not legal"

If find it very hard to believe that an indivudual has that kind of cash to pluck down on boat and hasn't taken that into consideration. When I bought my boat I can't tell you the time I put into reasearching it and it's not half the boat as some of these offshore monsters.
They knew what they were getting into, and if they didn't, well they deserve what they get.
It's all real simple, break the law, get a ticket. Period