Bad economy/speed limit=bad news for lake businesses

[secondcurve]

Originally Posted by livefreeordie

with the already bad economy and the new speed limit on the lake. I think the local restaurants and gas stations on the lake will def suffer huge losses this summer. I know lots of people that wont be going to dinner by boat any more do to the 25mph limit set at night. there is also a large group of people that are boycotting the lake do to this new law.

I hope the next two years fly by so we can get a more realistic law in place like speed limits in bays like Alton Bay, Paugus bay Ect. weekends only

Agree or disagree with the law, I haven't heard of anyone that will be boycotting going to dinner because they can't go faster than 25 mph at night. Even at that speed, which I will not exceed after dark anyway, the lake is only a 30-35 minute cruise from one end to the other.

[Dave R]

While I'm against the speed limit, I suspect the general economy will have the biggest impact on the local lake economy, and the the speed limit will hardly have any affect. I always felt that the economic arguments against a speed limit were silly.

That said, I have a list of the businesses that support a speed limit, and do avoid spending my money with them.

[robmac]

I for one would love that list so that my family can make sure we don't support those businesses.

[Gatto Nero]

Originally Posted by Dave R

While I'm against the speed limit, I suspect the general economy will have the biggest impact on the local lake economy, and the the speed limit will hardly have any affect. I always felt that the economic arguments against a speed limit were silly.

That said, I have a list of the businesses that support a speed limit, and do avoid spending my money with them.

I too seriously doubt there are many, if any, folks that won't go out to dinner because they can't go over 25 mph at night. Yes, it's a silly law but that would be like biting off your nose to spite your face. What's the point?

I would, however, be interested in seeing that list, Dave. Can you you share it?

[livefreeordie]

Originally Posted by Gatto Nero

I too seriously doubt there are many, if any, folks that won't go out to dinner because they can't go over 25 mph at night. Yes, it's a silly law but that would be like biting off your nose to spite your face. What's the point?

I would, however, be interested in seeing that list, Dave. Can you you share it?

I would like to see the list also, You have to remember some people have boats that will not plain at 25 making the trip at night unsafe and in our mind will make even more of an impact on erosion

[Woodsy]

I probably won't be going out to dinner much by boat, and certainly not to Wolfeboro or Alton (I live in the Weirs). I know of several people who feel the same way...

The problem is @ 25MPH my 26' boat is in transition... its not on plane, the nose is high, stern is squatted and I am pushing some serious water causing a monster wake. The boat absolutely GUZZLES gas at this speed....

I ran some tests last year with GPS, and the SLOWEST I could go without wallowing and coming off plane was 28MPH (GPS)... but this required me to first accellerate up to 34 MPH (GPS), drop the trim tabs, then throttle off to get down to 28 MPH. I doubt I will get a ticket using this method, but technically I would be in violation. If the MP witness me accelerate, they might hit the blues before I get a chance to get the tabs dropped and back off the throttle...

I dont really mind a night time speed limit, but 25 is just too low. My thoughts on the daytime limit are well documented!

Might be time to invest in radar detector.....

Woodsy

[hazelnut]

It seems that the problem with the law, especially the nighttime speed limit, is that it was written by NON-BOATERS who do not boat on Winnipesaukee. That is absolutely absolutely ludicrous. If anyone of the nimwits who wrote the law IS a boater than they are a very BAD boater that had no business writing the law in the first place. 25 MPH sounds so warm and fuzzy but for most boats including runabouts such as mine it is almost impossible to do 25 MPH without falling off plane and causing and enormous wake! So are we all to plow around the lake all night causing monster swells?

This is going to be an interesting summer. I am looking forward to all the observations by forum members this summer.

[BroadHopper]

I don't think bad economy or the speed limit is the problem we are facing. I spent winters in CO and I spent the last 2 months on Lake Norman in NC. It is the publicity everyone is hearing that is destroying the reputation of the lake.

[Loony Singer]

I'm a supporter of a speed limit on the Lake (maybe not exactly the bill that's in force now), and I have to say that it's really unfortunate that the speed limit has gone into effect during this severe economic downturn.

As this thread has already demonstrated, when the renewal of the bill is up for discussion, it's gonna be impossible to figure out how much of any downturn in business was due to the speed limit vs. other factors, especially the economy. The arguments will be heated on both sides, with no real factual basis...just lots of opinions, coming fast and furious.

Here's an idea...how about postponing the start of the two years of the current speed limit until the recession is over? I almost hate to suggest it, because I know that some folks will try to leverage this into killing the law altogether, but this might make sense all the way around.

Oh, and Dave...thanks for posting the listing of businesses that have supported the speed limit bill. I'll be sure to patronize them

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Loony Singer

I'm a supporter of a speed limit on the Lake (maybe not exactly the bill that's in force now), and I have to say that it's really unfortunate that the speed limit has gone into effect during this severe economic downturn.

As this thread has already demonstrated, when the renewal of the bill is up for discussion, it's gonna be impossible to figure out how much of any downturn in business was due to the speed limit vs. other factors, especially the economy. The arguments will be heated on both sides, with no real factual basis...just lots of opinions, coming fast and furious.

Here's an idea...how about postponing the start of the two years of the current speed limit until the recession is over? I almost hate to suggest it, because I know that some folks will try to leverage this into killing the law altogether, but this might make sense all the way around.

Oh, and Dave...thanks for posting the listing of businesses that have supported the speed limit bill. I'll be sure to patronize them

Although I disagree with your position on the limits themselves you do make a good point that it will be difficult to determine the economic downturn with the other factors going on in the world. However I have to ask even if there was no economic downturn, How could we attribute any losses directly to the limits? I am an opponent of them, but there will be no concreate evidence to be used either way. It will always be a matter of opinion.

There are certain industries geared towards faster boats i.e. poker runs, gas etc. However all boats still burn gas and all boats are welcome in poker runs so again it will be speculative to attribute any loss directly due to the limits.

These could be offset by more cruisers on the lake for example...

I am not condoning the limits at all. I think they will hurt a whole lot more then they will help, however I don't know if there will be an actual way to meter this.

My only thought is if the state would release how many go fast boats i.e. certain length, certain H.P. were registered this year opposed to past years. This again though could stem back to the overall economy one could argue.

To break it down I think that the discussion is valid and worth while because it keeps people thinking and trys to improve the lakes region the way we see fit. The only way we will be able to determine the impact will be from discussing what we have personally seen and heard. Through those observations we are free to form our own opinions and voice them come 2011.

So overall how ever you feel on the limits it is good to point out anything or anyone you have seen that has changed their plans due to them.

[secondcurve]

OCDACTIVE:

You don't put forth a very convincing argument that the speed limit will negatively impact the economy in a meaningful way for one simple reason, by your own admission you just purchased a go fast boat with full knowledge that there is a speed limit.......

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Although I disagree with your position on the limits themselves you do make a good point that it will be difficult to determine the economic downturn with the other factors going on in the world. However I have to ask even if there was no economic downturn, How could we attribute any losses directly to the limits? I am an opponent of them, but there will be no concreate evidence to be used either way. It will always be a matter of opinion.

There are certain industries geared towards faster boats i.e. poker runs, gas etc. However all boats still burn gas and all boats are welcome in poker runs so again it will be speculative to attribute any loss directly due to the limits.

These could be offset by more cruisers on the lake for example...

I am not condoning the limits at all. I think they will hurt a whole lot more then they will help, however I don't know if there will be an actual way to meter this.

My only thought is if the state would release how many go fast boats i.e. certain length, certain H.P. were registered this year opposed to past years. This again though could stem back to the overall economy one could argue.

To break it down I think that the discussion is valid and worth while because it keeps people thinking and trys to improve the lakes region the way we see fit. The only way we will be able to determine the impact will be from discussing what we have personally seen and heard. Through those observations we are free to form our own opinions and voice them come 2011.

So overall how ever you feel on the limits it is good to point out anything or anyone you have seen that has changed their plans due to them.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

OCDACTIVE:

You don't put forth a very convincing argument that the speed limit will negatively impact the economy in a meaningful way for one simple reason, by your own admission you just purchased a go fast boat with full knowledge that there is a speed limit.......

That is true I bought a go fast boat even though there are speed limits.... However, I will not be using it at the lake near as much as I would have. I would have left her at the dock year round boosting economy at many gas pumps and with a 100 gallon tank that is a lot of $$$. Plus I would want to go to as many places on the lake as I could with this being her first year. Now I plan to keep her in my driveway so I can go out of Portsmouth and down to Naragansett Bay taking revenue I would have spent in the lakes region totally out of state which is an absolute shame in my opinion. I have dreamed my whole life of having a boat like I just bought and to run her on the place I know blind folded, but now I either can just get off plain or be looking over my shouldar all the time.

Either way the lakes region will be adversely effected as well as the state of NH because I will be leaving half the time.

I mentioned earlier that it will be very difficult to measure the actual impact and all we can do is share our plans. Well chaulk me up as money lost, for I am going elsewhere the majority of the time directly due to the limits and NOT due the overall economy for I have decided not to participate in the slowdown.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Either way the lakes region will be adversely effected as well as the state of NH because I will be leaving half the time.

Not necessarily so. As has been pointed out before, many who have left the lake precisely because of the GFBL's may find the lake more enjoyable and therefore return. I myself plan to boat more, and especially on weekends. The net overall economic impact might well be quite positive in spite of your departure.

[Irrigation Guy]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Not necessarily so. As has been pointed out before, many who have left the lake precisely because of the GFBL's may find the lake more enjoyable and therefore return. I myself plan to boat more, and especially on weekends. The net overall economic impact might well be quite positive in spite of your departure.

Are you going to boat more because there will be less boats in general or because you were previously afraid of the big fast boats wizzing around in all those congested area's? I am being facetious because I never saw any GFBL's being bullies while my wife isn't a big fan of congestion and boats going all directions. The two are entirely different.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Either way the lakes region will be adversely effected as well as the state of NH because I will be leaving half the time.


Not necessarily so. As has been pointed out before, many who have left the lake precisely because of the GFBL's may find the lake more enjoyable and therefore return. I myself plan to boat more, and especially on weekends. The net overall economic impact might well be quite positive in spite of your departure.

You may be right and are entitled to your opinion.. There will be no way to really tell.. But I can say for certain that I am someone who would most definately be contributing to the economy of the area and now will not be. Probably 70% less then what I would have.

You will need probably two or three smaller boats to make up for that, realatively speaking. This would cause more congestion and perhaps cause more people not to go.

A few things I know about the GFB and their owners: Normally (there are always exceptions to the rule with any group) but Normally we only go fast when it is safe to do so, we normally know what the hell we are doing in a boat, and usually have to spend more to do it.

So overall I feel the economy and lake itself will suffer.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

But I can say for certain that I am someone who would most definately be contributing to the economy of the area and now will not be. Probably 70% less then what I would have.

You will need probably two or three smaller boats to make up for that, realatively speaking. This would cause more congestion and perhaps cause more people not to go.

So overall I feel the economy and lake itself will suffer.

Again not necessarily so. (hopefully) you don't eat and drink 3 times as much as the small boater when you go out to eat. Furthermore,increased tourism in the region (and not just boating) brings money to many businesses not precisely on the shoreline of Winni. Could be a win/win for the lake's region.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Again not necessarily so. (hopefully) you don't eat and drink 3 times as much as the small boater when you go out to eat. Furthermore,increased tourism in the region (and not just boating) brings money to many businesses not precisely on the shoreline of Winni. Could be a win/win for the lake's region.

True.... Only time will tell but I think your conclusions are a little too hopefull.

Smaller boats use less fuel. Less expensive to registar and carry less people (normally)

Canoes and Kayaks don't normally go to lunch as a group.

We can only wait and guess what may happen with the smaller groups you mention. But I can speak for myself as well as many other friends who have GFB and the lake is not going to be on their priority list.

I love the lake so I will definately be there some of the time because my family is there.. But I know I would have spent a whole lot more then I will be which hurts the economy.

I will not guess or speculate as to what other "groups" of individuals may or may not do. I just know what I and my friends will do and that is contribute to economys elsewhere unfortunately.

[hazelnut]

OCDACTIVE you have done a wonderful job presenting very valid points in this forum without dismissing anyone's points as pathetic or ridiculous etc. I applaud your methods of posting rational clear concise information. Everyone is indeed entitled to their opinions and it is clear that you have been borderline ridiculed by some members of the forum yet you have remained steadfast and consistent in your demeanor. I truly applaud you for that. Regardless of my absolute agreement on your positions I take offense to those who dismiss your/our concerns with regard to how we might enjoy our vessels during the day and at night. Mind you I am not an owner of a craft that could even carry your wake. However I am told I should not even go out at night because I want to do 35-40MPH. Oh well. I hope our paths cross someday this summer and we'll chat it up. Good luck with the new boat.

[VitaBene]

Regardless of speed limits (or no speed limits), we will be out on the lake for our usual 45-50 engine hours and countless floating hours. I hope all of you enjoy the upcoming boating season as much as my family and friends do!

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Loony Singer

Here's an idea...how about postponing the start of the two years of the current speed limit until the recession is over? I almost hate to suggest it, because I know that some folks will try to leverage this into killing the law altogether, but this might make sense all the way around.

This speed limit bill is supposed to be about safety. If safety is such a problem on the lake, postponing the implementation of a speed limit based on economic downturn is a very bad idea. Safety doesn't care about how much money people have to spend.

Originally Posted by Boater

When this law is reconsidered for 2011 and beyond economic impact should not be a consideration. The only consideration should be whether it achieved its intended purpose of making the lake safer for small boats and others using the lake. I suspect that it won't make a big difference since the lake is already very safe but remember that NH now has an extremely Liberal legislature that thinks regulating every aspect of your lives is a good thing.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Boater

In the current economic, energy and environmental climate I personally don't understand why anyone would buy a huge, noisy, high-speed, gas-guzzling boat, especially if they know about the 45 MPH speed limit. This is as crazy as the soccer moms using their enormous Excursions and Escalades to do errands. I don't want to outlaw them, but what are these people thinking?

I don't agree with this at all. While you may not think it is a good idea, plenty of people do. And in this country, they are able to exercise their freedom of choice. They are thinking that they can afford it, they enjoy it, and they will do it.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Again not necessarily so. (hopefully) you don't eat and drink 3 times as much as the small boater when you go out to eat. Furthermore,increased tourism in the region (and not just boating) brings money to many businesses not precisely on the shoreline of Winni. Could be a win/win for the lake's region.

Your theories may prove to be true, but we'll never really know. What you're describing would happen over a period of 5-7 years. Kayakers and timid boaters aren't going to just come out of the woodwork this year because the relatively small number of fast boats impacted by the new laws are cutting back on their hours in Winni.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Either way the lakes region will be adversely effected as well as the state of NH because I will be leaving half the time.


Not necessarily so. As has been pointed out before, many who have left the lake precisely because of the GFBL's may find the lake more enjoyable and therefore return. I myself plan to boat more, and especially on weekends. The net overall economic impact might well be quite positive in spite of your departure.

Also to clairify, those who I thought would return to the lake were canoers and kayakers.. (for the record I like to do both).. but I do not recall ever sinking 3 bills in the gas tank of one or taking family and friends to lunch at the naswa in one either..

Just making a point...


Economeys of scale.... It will take a lot more of them to make up for a few GFBs...

[Boater]

Originally Posted by Loony Singer

when the renewal of the bill is up for discussion, it's gonna be impossible to figure out how much of any downturn in business was due to the speed limit vs. other factors, especially the economy.

When this law is reconsidered for 2011 and beyond economic impact should not be a consideration. The only consideration should be whether it achieved its intended purpose of making the lake safer for small boats and others using the lake. I suspect that it won't make a big difference since the lake is already very safe but remember that NH now has an extremely Liberal legislature that thinks regulating every aspect of your lives is a good thing.

In the current economic, energy and environmental climate I personally don't understand why anyone would buy a huge, noisy, high-speed, gas-guzzling boat, especially if they know about the 45 MPH speed limit. This is as crazy as the soccer moms using their enormous Excursions and Escalades to do errands. I don't want to outlaw them, but what are these people thinking?

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Boater

In the current economic, energy and environmental climate I personally don't understand why anyone would buy a huge, noisy, high-speed, gas-guzzling boat, especially if they know about the 45 MPH speed limit. This is as crazy as the soccer moms using their enormous Excursions and Escalades to do errands. I don't want to outlaw them, but what are these people thinking?

I feel this is more of an opinion that would be in the "closed section" and really has no bearing on the discussion at hand. More over I feel it is directed to raise people apprehensions that may take this thead down the wrong path.

How people want to spend there money is totally up to them. Just because they purchase a boat that is outside of what you deem as realistic in todays economy doesn't mean it isn't something someone else can not afford. Also just because there is a limit in NH does not mean there is one up and down the east coast where I personally plan on using mine.

[Happy Gourmand]

I am neither a proponent nor an opponent of the speed limit law on the lake. I would have rather seen a NOISE limit rather than a speed limit introduced and enforced. I know, I know, there IS already a noise limit, I guess that's why I can hear some boats from Eagle Island all the way to the No Wake Zone in Meredith, and then ALL the way back. But that's another issue.
As far as the speed limit effect on the ecomomy around the lake, I think after a very brief adjustment period, if any, it will thrive as usual. For every go-fast boat owner who will opt to launch in the ocean, ( where some will argue that's where they belong ) I predict that at least one additional GSBQ (Go Slow Be Quiet ) boat will launch in the lake. I hardly believe that any lake accessed restaurant will fold or be negatively impacted as a result of a lower speed limit at night.
It wasn't that long ago that the heated discussion of the day was the smoking ban in restaurants and bars. Net effect of that law was that more folks found that going to a restaurant or bar to be a more pleasurable experience.
Could the same thing happen as a result of the speed limits on the lake?

[fatlazyless]

About a month ago, the Citizen had an article about the Marine Patrol's new, public information signs designed to inform the boating public about 'you know what' on Lake Winnipesaukee. Apparently, the MP will be nailing up some public dock signs, designed to let the boating public learn and understand the new boating law.

As I recall, at the time of the article one month ago, the signs were still on the drawing board. I believe the state has its own sign shop in Concord.


Winnipesaukee ice-out is here, so where are all the new signs? Us boaters want to be educated!

[woodswalk]

Bear in mind, many people come to the Lakes Region for things other than boating. Maybe DRED has a chart on this?

[sa meredith]

Just a question that seems appropriate to ask at this time.
Not looking to start trouble, or stir the pot. This is really just a question I would like answered by someone who knows more than I.

I've only been boating for a 4 or 5 years, but get out often enough, and know the lake pretty good. While I'm not usually in a rush, when heading from Meredith over to Wolfboro, I'll push the boat to it's limit, which is 45/48 MPH.
And this seems like a decent speed. My question: Even at 35/40 MPH, things seem to be moving pretty quickly...how can this possibly be a safe speed at night? I can't imagine...unless it is a clear, clear night, under a full moon....but even then. At 35 MPH, at night, couldn't you come up on something unexpected too quickly to make a correction?
I'd be curious to hear from night boaters. Do you folks actually travel at 35/40(pre-speed limit) under the cover of darkness...and is it truly safe?
Maybe my experience level is not what it should be, which is why it seems excessive.

[woodswalk]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

I can't imagine...unless it is a clear, clear night, under a full moon....but even then. At 35 MPH, at night, couldn't you come up on something unexpected too quickly to make a correction?.

Absolutely. even something partially submerged.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

Do you folks actually travel at 35/40(pre-speed limit) under the cover of darkness...and is it truly safe?
Maybe my experience level is not what it should be, which is why it seems excessive.

I normally do not, but on full moon nights, with clear skies, it is easy and safe to go 35+ with excellent visibility. Really depends on how much light is available. On pitch-black nights, 25 would be ludicrous. I can remember cruising slowly across Sebago Lake in Maine one night when it was clouldy and moonless. We literally could not see anything that was not lit up by humans. I kept it to idle speed and used GPS/compass to navigate to my overnight anchorage. When I got to the anchorage (a waypoint on the GPS), I was <300 feet from shore (a nice beach) and could not see it at all.

[Woodsy]

I think your going to see a very quiet (pun intended) numbers wise boating season...

The economy is in shambles, unemployment is at levels not seen since the early 80's and the government is printing & spending money faster than the ink can dry. Have we bottomed out yet? We might be getting close to the bottom, but we are not there yet.... then we are gonna bounce and have the inflation issue to deal with.... Prime @ 9.5%? Its coming!

While the few, and I mean FEW big Hi-Po boats that wont be on the lake won't be missed by the general public. You can bet they will be missed by some of the businesses on the lake. In this economy every $$ counts, even more so if your livelyhood depends on a a seasonal business.

Go ask the Naswa if they are going to miss the OuterLimits Factory crew this summer... 10+ guys, 5 rooms, and god only knows how much money they spend on food & drink entertaining thier clients.... just a small sample, but those guys came up 2-3 weekends a summer.

It was touted during the GREAT SPEED LIMIT DEBATE and most recently by others in this thread, that the lack of Hi-Perf boats would make the lake safer and thus more Average Joe family boaters would be more likely to visit Lake Winni. They might have had a valid point except the economy took a nosedive...

Average Joe the family boater is worried... worried about his job, worried about his house, worried about taxes, worried about paying his bills, worried about the price of gas. Luxuries like summers on the lake are being shortened to weekends or daytrips and in some cases tossed out all together.

Where is the Average Joe going to put his boat in the water? Park his trailer? Ames Farm is closed because of a neighbor dispute, there is no public launch in Laconia, You need to be a resident of Gilford to use Glendale, and Meredith has a very small ramp and charges a fee...

and FLL was right on with the weather... bad economy and bad weather would be a disaster for the seasonal business....

Woodsy

PS: I cant believe i just agreed with FLL on something! I better go get a $1 McChicken!

[NoRegrets]

Originally Posted by sa meredith
Do you folks actually travel at 35/40(pre-speed limit) under the cover of darkness...and is it truly safe?
Maybe my experience level is not what it should be, which is why it seems excessive.

IN response to the saftey of night boating.... Yes you can safely navigate at night at speed. We have a very accurate GPS and radar that we use anytime we boat. One night we come to a dead stop when the radar showed a "target" that we cound not see with our eyes. We shined the search light and saw a flock of ducks (not wearing the correct bathing caps). We have a double check process before we bring the boat up to speed. One will keep a visual watch and the other will watch the equipment. With the right state of mind and focus you can definitely navagate safely at speed in the dark. I would not trust this approach during fog or rain. You need to be proficient with the equipment to understand the limitations. I would not trust only one set of eyes.

Personal perspective: Our boat travels well at 28 MPH and hits 45 at WOT. This is going to be our 10 th season on the lake. We have not come in contact with rocks nor come close to an incident. We ahve traveled the lake many nights in all conditions. In spite of the many spectacular stories or accidents described in this great forum we enjoy all the diverse machinery fast or slow that navigate the lake. There is still enough lake to find crouds or seclusion. I don't get wigged out when a "rookie" buzzes closer than 150 feet as long as I see they are in control of their boat. Attitude seems to be the greatest restriction to the enjoyment the area offers. We are not rich nor are we poor. We find the weekends on the Lake to be the best "investment" in mental health that we can control and will continue until some other group of self serving ill-informed polititions take away personal choice and freedom.

[nightrider]

I believe a much more insidious component to the economy, as it pertains to boating, is ethanol in the gasoline. This stuff will wreak havoc on boats. A buddy of mine bought a NEW boat last year and althought Mercruiser states it is safe to use ethanol gasoline in the engine, the boat manufacturer WILL VOID the warranty for the fuel system ie; gas tank, if ethanol fuel is used in the boat. I hope there are marinas on the lake that will sell non-ethanol gas. If not, my 1986 wellcraft will be as useless as you-know-what on a bull, without a retrofit that will be more costly than the value of my boat. For those who think Marine Stabil will prevent these problems.......NOT! Marine Stabil will prevent phase separation. It will do nothing to prevent the ethanol from digesting your fuel system.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by nightrider

I I hope there are marinas on the lake that will sell non-ethanol gas. If not, my 1986 wellcraft will be as useless as you-know-what on a bull, without a retrofit that will be more costly than the value of my boat.

I take it you have a fiberglass gas tank? If so, I think you are truly hosed regarding fuel supply. That sucks.

[SIKSUKR]

I'm not going to get into the SL debate but I will say that FLL has spoken to the biggest factor for the lakes region money machine. #1 is the weather. #2 is the economy. Even being very vocal against the SL, I believe the economic angle is way down the list.

[Irrigation Guy]

Just received an email response from Lakeport Landing and they will be selling fuel this year that does not contain Ethanol.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by LocalRealtor

Just received an email response from Lakeport Landing and they will be selling fuel this year that does not contain Ethanol.

That's wonderful news. Glad I am wrong about Nightrider being hosed.

[NoRegrets]

GPS Accuracy – The new GPS systems should be within 15 feet accurate. Most systems can adjust the display to enhance the accuracy. When I first started to use my system the tracking was off by about 50 feet. This meant that the tracks would be going over ground through the Weirs Channel. I was able to adjust it to be right on. If you have an external antenna or use an internal antenna the position in your boat may be to one side (possibly at the helm). This will give you a reason to adjust your display to offset a few feet so it would look like the antenna is in the center of the vessel. I believe it was around 2003 when the US government implemented GPS WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System). This WAAS system uses fixed ground points and adjusts errors in the satellite positioning. It is really magic or science fiction to think about the general use of satellites. Check out WAAS on Wikkipedia if you really want to be impressed.

Hi swnoel - I am not immune to the bonehead captain moves and I do appreciate the frustration of everyone placed at risk by them. I have to consciously maintain composure at times but then reflect on my rookie mistakes and hope that someday the boneheads will learn like every responsible boater has. If not I appreciate witnessing good MP stops!

I will also agree with FLL with the observation that there were no boats on the lake. We only saw 6 boats yesterday between Paugus bay and Meredith. The sun’s solar effect through the isinglass was fantastic. The air coming of the water was cool. There was virtually no wind so the lake was smooth as glass. It was/is a great way to start the season.

[VtSteve]

I've boated at night since I was probably mid teens, which was a few decades ago I've rarely gone out on rainy or foggy nights, at least I've always tried not to. The night air is exhilarating, and the preferable moonlit nights are about as good as it gets. Even though I knew the lake extremely well, I rarely went into areas at night that I didn't frequent on a regular basis. So I could cruise from the neck to Meredith Bay, over to the Weirs for fireworks, out through Paugus, and down towards the Witches. Those used to be my limited cruise paths at night.

We never went that fast really, occasionally ripping the water up at an unconscionable speed of 40 mph LOL But generally speaking, we'd cruise along slowly to eat a pizza on the way back, turn it up to 20 to 30 mph and enjoy the beautiful night. It's harder to do on many lakes now due to congestion, boats without lights, the occasional people-powered craft that is hardly visible in daylight, and many times because I'm yawning before 10:00 PM.

Lots has changed the last thirty plus years. There are many "boaters" that lack the requisite experience, common sense, and even the attitude that is commensurate for a quality and safe boating experience. In other words, much more similar to highway driving than it used to be. Boaters in general used to be a less similar to the general population than they are nowadays. Not all mavericks for sure, but perhaps a heartier stock, big on the personal responsibility and camaraderie. I hate to paint with such a broad brush, but everytime one of these discussions comes up, it reminds me of watching the movie Dirty Dancing. The horrified looks of terror when those terrible young people were dancing like the devil

But it's a big world out there now, and many newer boaters didn't grow up on the water as I did, and they feel the need to "share" their opinions and views of their latest hobby with themselves, and their state representatives. People that generally make arses out of themselves on land with huge egos and arrogance, will generally do it on the ski slopes, and the water as well. It doesn't take many of these flamboyant, Type AAA personalities to make convenient targets, and representations for the nanny staters. We had one such person that is no longer on the water anymore over here. But in general, the go fasts here are pretty responsible and experienced.

The major problems are with tubers, newbie hot shots in their first boats, the usual. It would be a full time job every weekend to limit enforcement to just these groups. But alas, it's not done. The complainers have their targets, and the majority of unsafe boaters apparently are not in their focus yet. At any rate, I suspect that this economy will have a Thinning of The Herd impact on boating, which might not be a bad thing long term.

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

nightrider, ethanol in marina fuels has been discussed in another thread. I know Channel Marine was selling ValvTect Marine Fuel last year. I went to the ValvTect website and they had a locator to find all dealers selling their product. According to their website, Channel Marine, West Alton Marina (West Alton) and Lanes End Marina (Melvin Village) are all selling ValvTect fuel on Winnipesaukee. I have no idea what the price differential is between their fuel and regular ethanol-laced fuel, either at a marina or on the street.

Here's the Valvtect website, http://www.valvtect.com/.

There is also a ValvTect dealer on Ossipee Lake at Ossipee Lake Marina.

[nightrider]

WB, In reading the info on VT's web site, their fuel appears to be an additive supplanted mixture, still starting off with ethanol based gasoline, mayby I'm wrong but that looks to be what they are saying.

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Nightrider, all I remember is Channel Marine touted it last year as containing no ethanol.

I don't know if you found this link (it's easy to find with Google but it's buried on their website) but here's more info on their Marine Fuels from ValvTect's website, http://www.valvtect.com/marketing04.asp; I didn't see anywhere that they started with ethanol fuel or without but I could have easily missed it. That link will lead you to this link, Click here for more information on ValvTect Marine Fuels.

[BroadHopper]

I aggree with NoRegrets on all his points. However I have not found an accurate GPS. I have seen a number of GPS that are off as much as 300 feet. I've been on the lake for 50 years and I see more 'Captain Boneheads' than I want. I thought the boater's safety course will reduce this number.
On the intercoastal, I have very good luck in using the combination of lorance and GPS. Lorance is far more accurate than GPS. Radar and the new AIS is a godsend when visibility is poor or does nor exist.

Thank you NoRegrets. You are speaking from experience.

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

Originally Posted by sa meredith
Do you folks actually travel at 35/40(pre-speed limit) under the cover of darkness...and is it truly safe?
Maybe my experience level is not what it should be, which is why it seems excessive.

IN response to the saftey of night boating.... Yes you can safely navigate at night at speed. We have a very accurate GPS and radar that we use anytime we boat. One night we come to a dead stop when the radar showed a "target" that we cound not see with our eyes. We shined the search light and saw a flock of ducks (not wearing the correct bathing caps). We have a double check process before we bring the boat up to speed. One will keep a visual watch and the other will watch the equipment. With the right state of mind and focus you can definitely navagate safely at speed in the dark. I would not trust this approach during fog or rain. You need to be proficient with the equipment to understand the limitations. I would not trust only one set of eyes.

Personal perspective: Our boat travels well at 28 MPH and hits 45 at WOT. This is going to be our 10 th season on the lake. We have not come in contact with rocks nor come close to an incident. We ahve traveled the lake many nights in all conditions. In spite of the many spectacular stories or accidents described in this great forum we enjoy all the diverse machinery fast or slow that navigate the lake. There is still enough lake to find crouds or seclusion. I don't get wigged out when a "rookie" buzzes closer than 150 feet as long as I see they are in control of their boat. Attitude seems to be the greatest restriction to the enjoyment the area offers. We are not rich nor are we poor. We find the weekends on the Lake to be the best "investment" in mental health that we can control and will continue until some other group of self serving ill-informed polititions take away personal choice and freedom.

[Mink Islander]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

I aggree with NoRegrets on all his points. However I have not found an accurate GPS. I have seen a number of GPS that are off as much as 300 feet. I've been on the lake for 50 years and I see more 'Captain Boneheads' than I want. I thought the boater's safety course will reduce this number.
On the intercoastal, I have very good luck in using the combination of lorance and GPS. Lorance is far more accurate than GPS. Radar and the new AIS is a godsend when visibility is poor or does nor exist.

Thank you NoRegrets. You are speaking from experience.

Isn't Lowrance a brand of GPS? What is Lorance?

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Mink Islander

Isn't Lowrance a brand of GPS? What is Lorance?

I am assuming he is talking about Loran-C (Long Range Aid to Navigation). This was the predecessor to GPS technology. Growing up on the commercial party boats on the ocean in Hampton this was the technology that was used to plot fishing spots, or direction in general. No mapping like GPS, just coordinates.

[fatlazyless]

Was surprised that today had so few boats out. Good weather....sunny Sunday but nary a motorboat to be seen. Probably Saturday's grey weather didn't help but thought there would have been more boats today? Where were all the boats?

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by codeman671

I am assuming he is talking about Loran-C (Long Range Aid to Navigation). This was the predecessor to GPS technology. Growing up on the commercial party boats on the ocean in Hampton this was the technology that was used to plot fishing spots, or direction in general. No mapping like GPS, just coordinates.

You are right Codeman. On the intercaoastal mariners pronounce loran-c like 'low rance'. Sorry for the confusing.

Another problem on Winnipesaukee is that the local police do not practice what I call 'safe harbor'. When the weather is really bad at night and you had to remain at a public dock, you should be able to as a safety measure. I got ticketed one night at the Weirs docks and another night at the Glendale docks because I tied up due to bad weather conditions. I contested it in district court and lost. Personally I'd rather pay the fine than to do something dangerous.

[Woodsy]

BroadHopper...

When the MP/Town Cop is giving you the "You cant dock here speech" I found a very effective way of avoiding any further hassle with this simple phrase...

Politely ask for his badge number & name and then ask....

"Is it YOUR recommendation I drive in this weather?"

They usually just tell you to be gone by morning.... (Well at least that has been my experience)

Woodsy

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

Originally Posted by sa meredith
Do you folks actually travel at 35/40(pre-speed limit) under the cover of darkness...and is it truly safe?
Maybe my experience level is not what it should be, which is why it seems excessive.

IN response to the saftey of night boating.... Yes you can safely navigate at night at speed. We have a very accurate GPS and radar that we use anytime we boat. One night we come to a dead stop when the radar showed a "target" that we cound not see with our eyes. We shined the search light and saw a flock of ducks (not wearing the correct bathing caps). We have a double check process before we bring the boat up to speed. One will keep a visual watch and the other will watch the equipment. With the right state of mind and focus you can definitely navagate safely at speed in the dark. I would not trust this approach during fog or rain. You need to be proficient with the equipment to understand the limitations. I would not trust only one set of eyes.

Personal perspective: Our boat travels well at 28 MPH and hits 45 at WOT. This is going to be our 10 th season on the lake. We have not come in contact with rocks nor come close to an incident. We ahve traveled the lake many nights in all conditions. In spite of the many spectacular stories or accidents described in this great forum we enjoy all the diverse machinery fast or slow that navigate the lake. There is still enough lake to find crouds or seclusion. I don't get wigged out when a "rookie" buzzes closer than 150 feet as long as I see they are in control of their boat. Attitude seems to be the greatest restriction to the enjoyment the area offers. We are not rich nor are we poor. We find the weekends on the Lake to be the best "investment" in mental health that we can control and will continue until some other group of self serving ill-informed polititions take away personal choice and freedom.

I'm thrilled to hear your such an accomplished mariner and enjoy the lake as much as I, but, I think you'll find the majority of the boats on the lake do not have radar, we don't all operate large boats.

As an avid fisherman who spends countless hours fishing on the lake, I can assure you, that there is no loss of morons that will buzz you, WOT, within casting distance between boats.

One morning, just outside Wolfeboro Bay, at about 8 AM , we had a caravan of 6-7 cigarette boats pass within 100' of us trolling 200-300 yards off shore.

There was absolutely no reason those boats had to be within 400 yards of us , as we were not even close to the boating lane.

Those operators had absolutely no respect for anyone and I believe did it on purpose , I only wished the MP could of witnessed this spectacle.

While maybe you could care less about what I do, why shouldn't I be able to safely enjoy the lake, as well as everyone else.

While I do not condemn all boaters on the lake, there are a number that shouldn't come back and hopefully they won't , they won't be a loss or missed, they ruin it for all.

Unfortunately, this law is undoubtabley in response to many complaints from boaters and non boaters, in regards to at least a small number of jerks.

I don't believe for one second, that this law will destroy business around the lake, the destuction of the National Economy will be the culprit.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Loony Singer

Oh, and Dave...thanks for posting the listing of businesses that have supported the speed limit bill. I'll be sure to patronize them

Thank Winnfabs, they put it together. I'm just re-posting it.

[northeastelectric]

I don't want you to take this the wrong way but: Although we also have motorized boats(A Couple)and we like to speed around like everyone else(We at least slowdown for smaller boats, its common courtesy), I also have a canoe and a kayak (Which also have long histories on the lake-Longer history than motor boats come to think about it)and I can tell you that there definitely SHOULD be speed limits on certain areas of the lakes, I don't know how many times we have been out there in one of the smaller boats or canoes and some A-HOLE in a big cabin cruiser leaving a 3-4 foot wake blows by us at top speed many times almost capsizing us because they don't have any respect for the other people on the lake in smaller boats, even when near shore, Talk about road rage!!! you have no idea!!! My young nephew was up with us a few summers back on one of the occasions when this has happened and it scared him so bad he made us take him to shore and hasn't wanted to go out since, so yeah there should be speed limits in certain areas and if I ever meet up with one of these morons at the boat ramp then they may wish the hell they had slowed down instead of laughing about swamping some canoe who has just as much right to be out there on the lake as they do, if you don't believe me then try going out there in a canoe sometime and you may feel differently about the speed limits. Not all boaters are that way but there enough idiots out there to make up for the good people. COMMON SENSE GOES A LONG WAY.....One idiot even told me when I caught up to him and confronted him that he was second generation on the lake so that gave him the right to do whatever he wanted,...(Well my family has been in New England since 1622 but that doesn't give me more rights than anyone else,just the same rights).D.G.-Northeast Electric

Originally Posted by Dave R

While I'm against the speed limit, I suspect the general economy will have the biggest impact on the local lake economy, and the the speed limit will hardly have any affect. I always felt that the economic arguments against a speed limit were silly.

That said, I have a list of the businesses that support a speed limit, and do avoid spending my money with them.

[northeastelectric]

And yes you are right, I dont know what the economy has to do with speed limits, common sense boater safety should dictate the speed limits. & we have no problem with speeding around in boats, we just wish people would slow down a little when approaching smaller watercraft.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by northeastelectric

And yes you are right, I dont know what the economy has to do with speed limits, common sense boater safety should dictate the speed limits. & we have no problem with speeding around in boats, we just wish people would slow down a little when approaching smaller watercraft.

I too wish people would use a little common sense. When I'm on plane and I encounter smaller vessels, I make very obvious course adjustments to make it patently obvious that I see the other vessels (I do this wih all vessels when I'm the give way boat), give them a wide berth, and often speed up to minimize my wake. Hopefully the pictures below will help visualize my decision to speed up in these situations.


My boat's wake at 45-50 MPH


My boat's wake at 30-35 MPH


My boat's wake at 15-20 MPH

[Resident 2B]

Considering the economy and the SL rules, I will be boating more this year during the day, but less at night.

I'm retired and lucky to be on a fixed (non-government ) pension. Since gas prices will be a lot lower this year than they were last year, I'll most likely boat 20% to 30% more overall.

As far as night time boating, I will take short trips in displacement mode, but I can't get on plane under 25 MPH without a big wake due to transition, even with tabs down, so long distance night time trips are now effectively banded for me.

If gas spikes upward, my boating will spike downward.

R2B

[OCDACTIVE]

Hey Dave R. Totally off topic but love the pics. Getting me excited for this coming year!!! Your boat looks like it rides very well.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Hey Dave R. Totally off topic but love the pics. Getting me excited for this coming year!!! Your boat looks like it rides very well.

Thanks! It does ride well, IMO, for a 25 foot boat. I really like the 24 degree deadrise, and the ability to stay on plane comfortably at well under 25 MPH. Nice combination for rough days. There is a downside though, when I need to go somewhere less than 39" deep the deep V design and tail-heavy attititude at displacement speeds puts the props down in the mud and rocks. Fortunately U-joints are only 11 bucks each and easy to swap, I have no qualms about trimming way up at idle speed and changing U-joints every couple of years.

[VtSteve]

Gosh darn it Dave, there ya go again! Trying to make a point with facts, and now even pictures. But aside from your boat, those big cabin cruisers are a horror story when plowing. I usually deliberate for a couple of minutes before deciding how to take the wake, or just get the heck out of there.


I doubt any conclusions can be drawn from this summer. The economy is bad, life is different for many people. The "intent" of the law is well known in private circles, and they are probably spot on. However, there are many GF boats over on Lake George, where they strictly enforce the laws, and know exactly who their targets are. Maybe the point being, the boaters love the lake more than their boat's performance? I have no idea really.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Gosh darn it Dave, there ya go again! Trying to make a point with facts, and now even pictures. But aside from your boat, those big cabin cruisers are a horror story when plowing. I usually deliberate for a couple of minutes before deciding how to take the wake, or just get the heck out of there.

There's a couple of big (38 to 42 feet would be my guess) Regal cruisers on the lake that kick up absolutely huge and steep wakes at planing speed. They are much worse than the typical Carver or Silverton plowing wake. When I see them coming, I adjust my course and speed drastically, and call out a warning for everyone on board. The Regal boats are both dark colored and easy to spot from a distance. Their wakes are on par with the Sophie C and Doris E, I imagine you remember those...

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Dave R

There's a couple of big (38 to 42 feet would be my guess) Regal cruisers on the lake that kick up absolutely huge and steep wakes at planing speed. They are much worse than the typical Carver or Silverton plowing wake. When I see them coming, I adjust my course and speed drastically, and call out a warning for everyone on board. The Regal boats are both dark colored and easy to spot from a distance. Their wakes are on par with the Sophie C and Doris E, I imagine you remember those...

I sure do, even before the hull modifications over the years. I used to love to ski over them as fast as the skipper would go Those were the days, knees that worked.

But a 24 degree vee, Oh to have those back in my arsenal.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by swnoel

"...I'm thrilled to hear you're such an accomplished mariner and enjoy the lake as much as I..."

Won't 100% of Winnipesaukee boaters tell you they are "above average" boaters?

Originally Posted by swnoel

"...I don't believe for one second that this law will destroy business around the lake, the destruction of the National Economy will be the culprit..."

I agree: It is premature to discuss it a week after Ice-Out—and still has a two-year sunset provision within which to study that it had any effect at all!

Originally Posted by swnoel

"...we don't all operate large boats...why shouldn't I be able to safely enjoy the lake, as well as everyone else...?"

I'd like to know that answer as well.

Originally Posted by Dave R

"...Hopefully the pictures below will help visualize my decision to speed up in these situations..."


My boat's wake at 45-50 MPH

When I take a seasonal photograph of Lake Winnipesaukee, there are invariably mountains, intense residential development and at least one or more watercraft in the frame.

Is your photo a fair representation of a Lake Winnipesaukee boating environment?

Fess-up...you know the rules here about "other" bodies of water.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

... When I take a seasonal photograph of Lake Winnipesaukee, there are invariably mountains, intense residential development and at least one or more watercraft in the frame.

Is your photo a fair representation of a Lake Winnipesaukee boating environment?

Fess-up...you know the rules here about "other" bodies of water.

Huh???

Are you stating that because you insinuate that the picture might not have been taken on Winnipesaukee that it is not a valid example of what it is claimed to be, that higher speeds generally produce smaller wake?

This thread is so far afield at this point that a picture of someone golfing on the moon would be a legit addition to the argument. We posted pictures of Spock on another thread and I don't think there have been any Vulcans on Lake Winnipesaukee either.

This thread has become tedious. The original purpose to discuss the impact on the economy was a thin shield over discussing the speed limit again, a pointless exercise right now. No one can possibly predict how business will be this summer and even at the end of the year will not be able to tell what if any the speed limit contributed to the final effect. We all had our fun speculating.

This turkey is done.

Don, you suggested that you had your finger on the close button. I vote for you to press it.

[OCDACTIVE]

Again I disagree on the close. I think many valid points have been discussed. There have been those who have strayed off course a bit (no pun intended ) but we have done well on keeping them to the discussion of the economy in relation to SL's.

Whether anyone agrees that the economy will be effected or not it is up to them if they want to discuss it. I personally feel it definately will be but it will be very hard to calculate. But I think people have the right to voice their own opinions on the matter.

Personally I feel that there are many people who do not want to see how it actually will effect the economy because it will hurt there own agenda come 2 years from now. Having people aware of the situation due to discussions like this only helps determine the outcome. just my 2 cents.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Personally I feel that there are many people who do not want to see how it actually will effect the economy because it will hurt there own agenda come 2 years from now. Having people aware of the situation due to discussions like this only helps determine the outcome. just my 2 cents.

So I'd ask everyone to pretend they had perfect info of whatever type they thought needed. How would "you" go about determining the effect ? What would you look at, measure ? How would you decide what's attributable to the SL and what's due to other causes ?

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

So I'd ask everyone to pretend they had perfect info of whatever type they thought needed. How would "you" go about determining the effect ? What would you look at, measure ? How would you decide what's attributable to the SL and what's due to other causes ?

First off let me say GREAT POST.. getting back to the heart of conversation.

Determining the effect will be very difficult, as I have stated before, because the data can not be directed directly at the speed limits. What I mean is how do we determine or estimate the lost revenue from a go fast boater that does not come to the lakes region. I don't think any data was collected before the SL so it is hard to shape a comparrison.

What I do know and can directly attribute to the SL is those people who have posted here and on other sites how they will not be coming to the lake this year due to the SL. I have spoken with at least a dozen friends who had enjoyed the lake, are not hurting $ wise, and now will be spending their hard earned dollars elsewhere.

What I have also noticed is that many people say this will be offset by the "many paddlers" who had felt unsafe and now will visit the lake. However, I have not seen or heard from this "large group" of individuals who have avoided the lake all these years and now will be coming.

But to draw a specific conclusion it will be very hard to differentiate between the down economy and the SLs.

One thing for certain is that although it may not be a huge loss in comparrison to the entire economy it will just be another straw that may break the camels back. In my own opinion adding insult to injury.

[OCDACTIVE]

Sorry to call you out specifically, but sa meredith and jeffk, it seems you guys are the only ones not enjoying the thread. May I suggest just not participating?

Totally your right to however.. Happy to have you. I just think it is everyones right to voice their thoughts whether you agree with them or not.

I think that since the SL's just took place, discussing if people have changed their plans due to them is a direct effect on the economy. By discussing these plans is the only way we will know if it is effecting the lakes region.

I just don't know what people are trying to hide. Flame away

[Skip]

There is no doubt in my mind that the factors contributing to a decline in boating last year, not only on Winni, but boating in general in New Hampshire were the economy, fuel prices and the weather.

This year gas prices have dropped significantly, and we don't know what the weather will bring. But anyone that doesn't think the economy is the greatest detriment to boating in general and tourism specifically is just ignoring the obvious.

The speed limit issue? While we play insider baseball here another fact is it just simply doesn't apply to most folks, and I bet a lot of the transient boating population gives it little thought, as with most boating regulations.

Will there be some folks that vote with their feet this year? Perhaps. But I am looking at the other sign of the coin. I currently have a 20 footer and boat with several friends over at Ossipee in the same length range. None of us have ventured over to Winni for several years as we are only up on weekends and have not wanted to deal with the foolishness.

But guess what. We decided this off season that we are all going to make a number of day trips over to Winni, hoping that some of you are right. Less high speed or huge wake producing traffic will make a much more pleasant experience for us. And yes, maybe one family on a 20 footer won't drop as much cash as a boatload in a GF boat, but if several families and smaller craft take the footprint of one departing "big spender" I think the net amount spent quickly balances out.

Just my thoughts.

In closing I also understand JeffK and others concerns about this thread. I am very close but not yet ready to cast my vote for Don for closure because it is obvious to me that there are several posters here with very thinly veiled objectives. Maybe the dark side of me is waiting to say "I told you so".....

You can't fool and old fool.....

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by Skip

But guess what. We decided this off season that we are all going to make a number of day trips over to Winni, hoping that some of you are right. Less high speed or huge wake producing traffic will make a much more pleasant experience for us. And yes, maybe one family on a 20 footer won't drop as much cash as a boatload in a GF boat, but if several families and smaller craft take the footprint of one departing "big spender" I think the net amount spent quickly balances out.

Well said. We have heard from several posters about how much they spend in relation to their performance boats, i.e. gasoline, shoreside restaurants, etc.,and how kayakers/others would never spend as much. In reality, we all choose to spend our money in different ways. I may spend 5% of what a GFBL spends on gas and shoreside restaurants, yet I have more money left that I spend on, say, restaurants not on the town docks, charities in the lake's region (and of course these charities spend this money), maintenance on my very modest 60 y/o cabin, etc. We all choose to spend our money in different ways, and I know people on and around the lake who have very modest boats but who spend a great deal never the less.
What I have found disagreeable with some of the recent posts is the " I'm going to take my bat and ball and go home" mentality.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Skip

But guess what. We decided this off season that we are all going to make a number of day trips over to Winni, hoping that some of you are right. Less high speed or huge wake producing traffic will make a much more pleasant experience for us. And yes, maybe one family on a 20 footer won't drop as much cash as a boatload in a GF boat, but if several families and smaller craft take the footprint of one departing "big spender" I think the net amount spent quickly balances out.

Just my thoughts.

Hey Skip.. Great post.. By the way I love heading your directly to go to long sands.. Always a great time.

Just playing devils advocate but as you pointed out that several families on 20 footers may offset the one GFB, but now isn't that going to cause a safety issue as far as congestion. For the economy it would be great, but with things the way they are I doubt that "several" families have the extra $$ to offset.

Anyway just making polite conversation.. I agree with you on most aspects.

[ironhorsetim]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Just playing devils advocate but as you pointed out that several families on 20 footers may offset the one GFB, but now isn't that going to cause a safety issue as far as congestion. For the economy it would be great, but with things the way they are I doubt that "several" families have the extra $$ to offset.

It sure is going to leave more room at Braun Bay
Don't know about you but when my kids were young I could spend alot more in a weekend than two of those GFB's

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Hey Skip.. Great post.. By the way I love heading your directly to go to long sands.. Always a great time.

Just playing devils advocate but as you pointed out that several families on 20 footers may offset the one GFB, but now isn't that going to cause a safety issue as far as congestion. For the economy it would be great, but with things the way they are I doubt that "several" families have the extra $$ to offset.

Anyway just making polite conversation.. I agree with you on most aspects.

The economy will bottom in different areas at different times. I suspect a largely recreational and tourist area will be hurt this summer much more than some areas. We won't know until the July and August reports come in.

One of the biggest problems on Winni for smaller boats (mine is 22') on weekends has always been cruiser wakes. We used to have them parade by out on the neck all day long, with the boats lurching and yawing at the dock, begging for mercy. Trying to make it to the Weirs on a Saturday was amusing for us when younger, maybe not so funny anymore. That was in the 70's and 80's, so none of this is even remotely new.

If they're all still there, weekends are still far from an excellent experience on the lake.

I've found that on the highway, there was a dramatic change in speeds the minute gas prices headed down below $2 a gallon. Since I drive interstate daily, it's quite noticeable. While the economy has definitely gone downhill, the dramatic decrease in fuel costs should equalize the overall boating experience. If anything, hotels and restaurant would be hit harder than boating. The danger is that the loss of even 15% or less of clientele could shut down a lake business, then everyone suffers.

I remember Winni when it was pretty darn boring after 6 PM, as far as nightspots and waterfront activity went. Outside of the Weirs and a relatively tame Naswa, not much going on. It's pretty exciting to have places to go on the water, and makes for an experience that to this day I find amazing. Nothing like it. That holds for fishermen, watersports, whatever your chosen activity.

It takes a mix of people, hopefully responsible people, to make an area intriguing and pleasant. As much as I hate headway speed, there are obvious areas of congestion that should be heavily patrolled. This goes for unsafe at any speed boaters as well as cruisers with dangerous wakes. If the rules are applied evenly, and with common sense and courtesy, it makes for a better place. I hate irresponsible and dangerous boaters as much or more than anyone. It would be nice if they could be dealt with.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Skip

Will there be some folks that vote with their feet this year? Perhaps. But I am looking at the other sign of the coin. I currently have a 20 footer and boat with several friends over at Ossipee in the same length range. None of us have ventured over to Winni for several years as we are only up on weekends and have not wanted to deal with the foolishness.

But guess what. We decided this off season that we are all going to make a number of day trips over to Winni, hoping that some of you are right. Less high speed or huge wake producing traffic will make a much more pleasant experience for us. And yes, maybe one family on a 20 footer won't drop as much cash as a boatload in a GF boat, but if several families and smaller craft take the footprint of one departing "big spender" I think the net amount spent quickly balances out.

Just my thoughts.

My father used to let us kids take the boat on weekends, since he couldn't stand the crowds out on the lake. I'm being totally honest here, as the owner of a 22 footer, that I'd take fifty go fasts if I could get rid of the monster wakes. Regulate the mad tubers driving in people's paths, the wild and crazy PWC riders, those that speed through NWZ's, Winni would be better than ever.

Videos would say more than I possibly could.

[Woodsy]

Where are the 20' average joe boaters going to launch thier boats? More than a few public ramps, but most are resident only and have little trailer parking. I just dont see great numbers of average joe boaters replacing anyone....

Go fast or Go slow... In this economy, I think any loss of business is bad thing.

Sunset

You make one good point... everybody does spend thier money the way they see fit! However, the business model for waterfront establishments isnt too good if your replacement plan for the lack of big $$$ spenders is to replace them with people who spend thier money elsewhere.

Woodsy

[Woodsy]

Skip...

I agree with you that the economy is the biggest elephant in the room! However HB-847 does nothing to effect the big cruisers throwing big wakes. While there might be less hi-speed boat traffic. There will be the huge wakes thrown by the big cruisers...

Bang me a PM when you & the guys are heading over this way and we can meet up!

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

So I'd ask everyone to pretend they had perfect info of whatever type they thought needed. How would "you" go about determining the effect ? What would you look at, measure ? How would you decide what's attributable to the SL and what's due to other causes ?

Most of the folks who own the boats targeted by HB-847 can afford to spend the $$$... The question is will they spend that $$$ here or someplace else.

There is no easily quantifiable measure to judge the effect the speed limit will have on the economy, especially when you consider how bad the economy currently is. However, we can an idea if there was an effect at all, by looking at the amount of high test gasoline pumped on the lake, and a quick check with the charities conducting the poker runs. (these tend to attract the Hi-Performance boats that the speed limit targets) To be sure there will be an economic effect... but i am pretty sure its going to be a ripple noticed only by those businesses directly affected and barely noticed (if at all) by the general public.

The success or failure of the speed limit is easily quantifiable... How many tickets written? at what time/conditions? what was the outcome of the ticket? fine paid (no contest in court)? fine paid (contested in court)? no fine (case dismissed in court)? How much did the MP spend on enforcement? Cost of Patrols? Court Costs?

I suspect the number of boat registrations will be down this year and next given the state of things... this DIRECTLY affects MP funding and staffing levels. Cost will become (as I predicted a long time ago) a very big part of the speed limit equation...


Woodsy

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

The success or failure of the speed limit is easily quantifiable... How many tickets written? at what time/conditions? what was the outcome of the ticket? fine paid (no contest in court)? fine paid (contested in court)? no fine (case dismissed in court)? How much did the MP spend on enforcement? Cost of Patrols? Court Costs?

I suspect the number of boat registrations will be down this year and next given the state of things... this DIRECTLY affects MP funding and staffing levels. Cost will become (as I predicted a long time ago) a very big part of the speed limit equation...


Woodsy

WOW Skip and Woodsy way to get to the heart of the subject.. I just wanted to chime in and say I am greatly impressed to the clarity of your posts. Top notch!

Woodsy I really like how you broke down the quantifiable costs of the limit itself. My only question is where would we get that information? I wonder if they will even post the data or if it is even calculated at all.

Although opposed to the SL or many different aspects I will say I think they would have worked better as money generator for the state if it was not linked to your MVR.

Just think about how many more people are going to fight their tickets and how much it will cost the state. Not to mention even before they were inacted how much difficulty proving accuracy.

Anyway, just wanted to say Thank you both for your posts. They show why this thread has value.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Skip...

I
The success or failure of the speed limit is easily quantifiable... How many tickets written? at what time/conditions? what was the outcome of the ticket? fine paid (no contest in court)? fine paid (contested in court)? no fine (case dismissed in court)? How much did the MP spend on enforcement? Cost of Patrols? Court Costs?

I suspect the number of boat registrations will be down this year and next given the state of things... this DIRECTLY affects MP funding and staffing levels. Cost will become (as I predicted a long time ago) a very big part of the speed limit equation...


Woodsy

I too am very curious as to how this will shake out. I'm not sure I agree with the statement that the speed limit success or failure is easily quantified or that I really understand your point. I think from my experience on the lake and the much poo pooed MP data from last year that there aren't too many boats going over 45 mph, except for a few instances. So I don't think too many speeding tickets will be written. MP will probably be pilloried for this. I do expect to see MP boats changing course to try and clock me on my jet ski, we'll see.

Anyway, I predict a very interesting boating season.

[Lakepilot]

We have a 25 foot Cobalt that wide open goes real fast. I don't think of it as a go fast boat, but it is. But even though it goes like a bat out of you know where, our most enjoyable times are just cruising around the lake, looking at other boats, cottages or the mountains. I do that at a speed well below wide open throttle. It just feels better. My choice of speed is apparently a lot easier then many others though. My bow angle is almost independent of speed - as is my wake. I don't like crawling around the lake - takes to long to see things. I can't imagine just opening the throttle thow and going around the lake at full speed. I would miss a lot. I guess when I was younger I got a thrill out of wanting to go as fast as possible from a to b, but now I just want to enjoy the lake.

[Skip]

I guess I am extremely disappointed.

While I was concerned at the beginning of this thread that it would eventually spiral back into the speed limit debate, I realized that there is still a lot of passion about the issue and this thread contains posts from good people on both sides of that issue that were trying to explore a different angle, the possible economic impact.

That said something still didn't set right with me. So, being the curious individual that I am I poked around some other websites tonight. I won't name names nor will I dredge up the other sites, but suffice to say I found the smoking gun. It is obvious to me that at least one (and possibly several)poster in this thread does not truly care about the diverse opinions regarding possible economic impacts. I was very troubled to read some of the extremely negative comments this individual has made against this website and against posters here that were enticed to offer their opinions.

Don, this thread is going nowhere fast. While I believe the original poster was sincere in his question, this thread and discussion has become a trojan horse for at least one organization that has savaged this website, it's posters and you, our webmaster.

I vote that you close this thread immediately.

Thanks...

[VtSteve]

I think I see what you mean Skip, but possibly overreacting, or maybe I'm just naive in hoping people grow up. I see what you see too, and I think it hurts the balanced and objective arguments more on one side than another. Not too surprising given the time of year, and the new year's issues. There are less than civil discussions going on, but this one has remained pretty open in my opinion.

For those that do engage in the type of behavior that Skip is addressing. That attitude is part of the reason many laws are being written across the country. I would specifically point to the Maine case as being a poster ad for stricter limits. If people don't think you're mature enough to even understand their concerns, then they'll find a way to curb your activities. Even though I don't agree with the outcome, I fully understand why it happened.

I also understand that failing to address the concerns of the other side will not help your cause. Attacking people and other such in your face actions pretty much rule out any form of negotiations. Without constructive discussion, it gives people the impression that some people need adult supervisions.

I hope you've viewed most of my blathering as constructive here Skip. With exceptions, all sides have been aired out. One thing for sure. The lake will always be an attraction, recessions or not.

[sa meredith]

Originally Posted by Skip

I guess I am extremely disappointed.

While I was concerned at the beginning of this thread that it would eventually spiral back into the speed limit debate, I realized that there is still a lot of passion about the issue and this thread contains posts from good people on both sides of that issue that were trying to explore a different angle, the possible economic impact.

That said something still didn't set right with me. So, being the curious individual that I am I poked around some other websites tonight. I won't name names nor will I dredge up the other sites, but suffice to say I found the smoking gun. It is obvious to me that at least one (and possibly several)poster in this thread does not truly care about the diverse opinions regarding possible economic impacts. I was very troubled to read some of the extremely negative comments this individual has made against this website and against posters here that were enticed to offer their opinions.

Don, this thread is going nowhere fast. While I believe the original poster was sincere in his question, this thread and discussion has become a trojan horse for at least one organization that has savaged this website, it's posters and you, our webmaster.

I vote that you close this thread immediately.

Thanks...

Well said Skip.
I made the exact same point in post #50 of this thread:

But they have long since turned into the same regurgitated garbage over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again! All this thread is, is a disguise to start it up again. Anyone can see this


It has been obvious from the start. Surprised Don has let it contiue.
The sarcasm disguised as politeness in many posts here is almost comical

[VtSteve]

I mostly agree with your post #50 SA. This summer will be a tough one for boaters, not to mention the continued drought in the boat business. Every group likes to think they're the most important, which I sense is the feeling some have regarding their relative importance on the lake's economy.

I think the most obvious economic impact this season will be those that couldn't recover from unwise spending from home refis and interest rate adjustments. This will have some impact on properties for sale, boats not launched, and probably will lessen the traffic on the lake in general. The rest will have to make choices if money's tight. Do we go out in the boat every weekend, or just sit back and hang out? Dining out or eating in? Basics of life.

I saw decreased activity last summer due to the gas prices. Two groups "seemed" to be impacted the most, from my own totally unscientific observations. Less flashy boats bombing around. I surmise these are the folks that bought expensive machines they really could not afford to run anyway, especially at $5 a gallon. House as ATM machine and all that. Recreational boaters were much more sedate, mostly at anchor rather than bussing around. But last summer was dreadful weather, so taking that into account, who really knows?

The Lakes Region has survived many economic downturns, like to one in the 80's where it seemed every other waterfront property was for sale. It will continue to survive as it always has. Just another reminder that huge debt leverage and living beyond your means usually ends badly.

[sa meredith]

Originally Posted by jeffk

Huh???

Are you stating that because you insinuate that the picture might not have been taken on Winnipesaukee that it is not a valid example of what it is claimed to be, that higher speeds generally produce smaller wake?

This thread is so far afield at this point that a picture of someone golfing on the moon would be a legit addition to the argument. We posted pictures of Spock on another thread and I don't think there have been any Vulcans on Lake Winnipesaukee either.

This thread has become tedious. The original purpose to discuss the impact on the economy was a thin shield over discussing the speed limit again, a pointless exercise right now. No one can possibly predict how business will be this summer and even at the end of the year will not be able to tell what if any the speed limit contributed to the final effect. We all had our fun speculating.

This turkey is done.

Don, you suggested that you had your finger on the close button. I vote for you to press it.

http://rookery2.viary.com/storagev12...2_625x1000.jpg

[jeffk]

Thanks SA Meredith.

Is that the fat lady singing?

[sa meredith]

Loud and clear......

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

When I take a seasonal photograph of Lake Winnipesaukee, there are invariably mountains, intense residential development and at least one or more watercraft in the frame.

Is your photo a fair representation of a Lake Winnipesaukee boating environment?

Fess-up...you know the rules here about "other" bodies of water.

That one was taken in Maine on a smaller lake. It's the only one I have of my wake at that kind of speed. The other pictures lack other watercraft, intense residential development and mountains as well though, and they were taken on Winnipesuakee. None were taken by me.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by northeastelectric

I don't want you to take this the wrong way but: Although we also have motorized boats(A Couple)and we like to speed around like everyone else(We at least slowdown for smaller boats, its common courtesy), I also have a canoe and a kayak (Which also have long histories on the lake-Longer history than motor boats come to think about it)and I can tell you that there definitely SHOULD be speed limits on certain areas of the lakes, I don't know how many times we have been out there in one of the smaller boats or canoes and some A-HOLE in a big cabin cruiser leaving a 3-4 foot wake blows by us at top speed many times almost capsizing us because they don't have any respect for the other people on the lake in smaller boats, even when near shore, Talk about road rage!!! you have no idea!!! My young nephew was up with us a few summers back on one of the occasions when this has happened and it scared him so bad he made us take him to shore and hasn't wanted to go out since, so yeah there should be speed limits in certain areas and if I ever meet up with one of these morons at the boat ramp then they may wish the hell they had slowed down instead of laughing about swamping some canoe who has just as much right to be out there on the lake as they do, if you don't believe me then try going out there in a canoe sometime and you may feel differently about the speed limits. Not all boaters are that way but there enough idiots out there to make up for the good people. COMMON SENSE GOES A LONG WAY.....One idiot even told me when I caught up to him and confronted him that he was second generation on the lake so that gave him the right to do whatever he wanted,...(Well my family has been in New England since 1622 but that doesn't give me more rights than anyone else,just the same rights).D.G.-Northeast Electric

What you described was illegal before speed limits were enacted.

Boats that leave a 3 or 4 foot wake are going much slower than 45 MPH.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by northeastelectric

I don't want you to take this the wrong way but: Although we also have motorized boats(A Couple)and we like to speed around like everyone else(We at least slowdown for smaller boats, its common courtesy), I also have a canoe and a kayak (Which also have long histories on the lake-Longer history than motor boats come to think about it)and I can tell you that there definitely SHOULD be speed limits on certain areas of the lakes, I don't know how many times we have been out there in one of the smaller boats or canoes and some A-HOLE in a big cabin cruiser leaving a 3-4 foot wake blows by us at top speed many times almost capsizing us because they don't have any respect for the other people on the lake in smaller boats, even when near shore, Talk about road rage!!! you have no idea!!! My young nephew was up with us a few summers back on one of the occasions when this has happened and it scared him so bad he made us take him to shore and hasn't wanted to go out since, so yeah there should be speed limits in certain areas and if I ever meet up with one of these morons at the boat ramp then they may wish the hell they had slowed down instead of laughing about swamping some canoe who has just as much right to be out there on the lake as they do, if you don't believe me then try going out there in a canoe sometime and you may feel differently about the speed limits. Not all boaters are that way but there enough idiots out there to make up for the good people. COMMON SENSE GOES A LONG WAY.....One idiot even told me when I caught up to him and confronted him that he was second generation on the lake so that gave him the right to do whatever he wanted,...(Well my family has been in New England since 1622 but that doesn't give me more rights than anyone else,just the same rights).D.G.-Northeast Electric

What you say is a valid opinion but a bit off topic.. We are really trying to discuss if they will have an impact on the economy and not whether we agree with the merits of the law itself.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Agree or disagree with the law, I haven't heard of anyone that will be boycotting going to dinner because they can't go faster than 25 mph at night. Even at that speed, which I will not exceed after dark anyway, the lake is only a 30-35 minute cruise from one end to the other.

My family plans to go out to dinner more, not less. We feel the experience will be more enjoyable than in the past. Maybe others will return as well.

[JDeere]

Well I for one will do a lot more boating this season. Speed limit can only enhance the quality of the lake.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Agree or disagree with the law, I haven't heard of anyone that will be boycotting going to dinner because they can't go faster than 25 mph at night. Even at that speed, which I will not exceed after dark anyway, the lake is only a 30-35 minute cruise from one end to the other.

OH my.. sorry to disagree.. I have talked to numerous people that said they will not be coming up because they do not want the hassel. It's a shame really....

[robmac]

I will certainly be usung my boat as much if not more than usual. I to have heard a number of people that due to economic conditions will be boating alot less. It's a shame but should open up and ease congestion which will be fantastic. Heading to the boat shortlt for the day.

[OCDACTIVE]

However, I also feel that from an economey standpoint there won't be much of an impact... other then maybe slightly on the gas pumps.. For all those people not coming there will be others that will come to support local businesses. They will still have to camp, eat etc. But I bet more people with smaller boats, kayaks, canoes etc will come where those spending hundreds if not thousands in gas won't be coming.

I am there either way... so see you out there!

[Woodsy]

I definitely think the bad economy is going to hurt the lake worse than the speed limit, although there will be some impact at the gas pumps and restaurants. When was the last time you saw a bunch of kayakers pull up to the town docks, go drop $500 on dinner then leave... I suspect the big charity poker runs will also be down in revenue because the big boys arent welcome here anymore. There is already an abundance of boat slips for rent and sale...

The average family boaters doesnt have (or will not spend) the money to come stay on Winni as they had in the past. Several families that I know of who would come for the summer are now coming for a month (and trying to rent out thier cottage when they arent using it), others who would come for 2 weeks are down to 1 week, and others are just going to day trip... All in all everyone is cutting back, and that impact will be felt here on Winni.

I suspect a very non-congested boating season, with business down all around...

Woodsy

[Irrigation Guy]

The cruise speed on my boat is about 26-27 mph. Anything less than that, I have to trim down, use more gas, and create a large wake(more erosion). More gas means less often going out to spend money at night. Usually I would go out during daylight, and return after dark. I keep my boat on Long Island so anywhere that serves dinner is a long cruise to be intentionally using more fuel than necessary.

I'd hope they wouldn't go after me for the little bit over, but if they are looking for a reason to pull someone over, well..............

[livefreeordie]

Originally Posted by LocalRealtor

The cruise speed on my boat is about 26-27 mph. Anything less than that, I have to trim down, use more gas, and create a large wake(more erosion). More gas means less often going out to spend money at night. Usually I would go out during daylight, and return after dark. I keep my boat on Long Island so anywhere that serves dinner is a long cruise to be intentionally using more fuel than necessary.

I'd hope they wouldn't go after me for the little bit over, but if they are looking for a reason to pull someone over, well..............

well the good news is that I hear they are cutting MP force in half do to the bad times. there wont be many around to enforce the speed limit..... My radar detector will make its way to the boat every time I go out just to give me the heads up...

[brk-lnt]

I'm no supporter of the speed limit law, but I would also point out that 25MPH is the LIMIT. You can, in fact, go slower than this speed. And every hull design I've ever seen is more efficient at right around displacement speed than even when on plane (baring hydrofoils and the like).

If you can't get/stay on plane at 25MPH, then go slower, or stay home.

This sky-is-falling attitude about the speed limit law is really pathetic (sorry). And just like a speedlimit law on the streets, I would *highly* doubt that anyone is going to get a ticket for going 28 or 32MPH at night. These tickets, if any are actually written, are going to be very hard to enforce, with boat speedometers generally being very inaccurate.

[Woodsy]

Brk...

You prove my point.... If i go at displacement speed say 6-8 MPH, a round trip from the Weirs to Meredith will be approximately 1 1/2-2 hours... add in an hour or so for dinner.... it turns into a 3 hour tour! While some nights this might be enjoyable, on others less so.

At displacement speed you can forget about going to Center Harbor, Wolfeboro or Alton!! I would have to leave at noon and hope to be back at midnight!

At this point it just becomes easier to take the car... and thats a shame!

Woodsy

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

At this point it just becomes easier to take the car... and thats a shame!

Woodsy

Yup, so the real question is going to be will the potentially lost revenue from people who feel they can no longer take their boat to dinner someplace be offset by the people who now (supposedly) feel less endangered on the lake?

And, if you take the car instead of the boat, the economic impact becomes a zero-sum game...

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

Yup, so the real question is going to be will the potentially lost revenue from people who feel they can no longer take their boat to dinner someplace be offset by the people who now (supposedly) feel less endangered on the lake?

And, if you take the car instead of the boat, the economic impact becomes a zero-sum game...

Both post in this thread from you are argumentative and contain ignorance. People including myself, Woodsy, R2B and others are posting factual statements considering the FACT that if we follow the law we can not enjoy our boats at night. FACT! No embellishment, no hearsay, no wild accusation just plain fact. We are merely pointing out a fact that as a bi-product of this law we can not obey the law and enjoy it. We can go 6-8 MPH at night and take several hours to do our trip or as YOU SAY we can break the law and go 32MPH and be looking over our shoulder the entire ride worrying that the MP doesn't pull us over. Well that sucks in OUR opinion. You are entitled to yours but I'd appreciate if you didn't dismiss our concerns as "pathetic."

Let me make something else VERY clear. I own a 26 foot BOWRIDER capable of a top speed of 47MPH. At night this boat will not stay on plane at 25MPH. So this law affects the Bow Rider family boat crowd just as much.

[OCDACTIVE]

Very well said. I believe you hit the nail on the head that not only one group of people (I now being part of that group) are adversley effected. But as long as the kayakers and canoers can go out in the middle of the broads at night all good..

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Very well said. I believe you hit the nail on the head that not only one group of people (I now being part of that group) are adversley effected. But as long as the kayakers and canoers can go out in the middle of the broads at night all good..

I thought it was law that you need bow and stern lights at night?

Who in their "right " mind would be in the broads with a kayak or canoe?
Maybe some drunk or crackhead!


Why is it that the large boat owners that reside on and use the Lake, think the lake belongs only to them!!!

Everyone has the right to be safe on the lake, the lack of respect that I've experienced by those big boats while fishing is unbelievable.

The bottom line is, if everyone showed the respect to one another as they maintain, there would be NO need for any additional laws!

I also don't think anyone will be stopped for going 10mph over in a safe way, but just the passing of the law will undoubtably make people more aware of what they're doing and will make the lake safer for all.