Bad economy/speed limit=bad news for lake businesses

Woodsy · 04-22-2009, 11:25 AM

Skip...

I agree with you that the economy is the biggest elephant in the room! However HB-847 does nothing to effect the big cruisers throwing big wakes. While there might be less hi-speed boat traffic. There will be the huge wakes thrown by the big cruisers...

Bang me a PM when you & the guys are heading over this way and we can meet up!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

So I'd ask everyone to pretend they had perfect info of whatever type they thought needed. How would "you" go about determining the effect ? What would you look at, measure ? How would you decide what's attributable to the SL and what's due to other causes ?

Most of the folks who own the boats targeted by HB-847 can afford to spend the $$$... The question is will they spend that $$$ here or someplace else.

There is no easily quantifiable measure to judge the effect the speed limit will have on the economy, especially when you consider how bad the economy currently is. However, we can an idea if there was an effect at all, by looking at the amount of high test gasoline pumped on the lake, and a quick check with the charities conducting the poker runs. (these tend to attract the Hi-Performance boats that the speed limit targets) To be sure there will be an economic effect... but i am pretty sure its going to be a ripple noticed only by those businesses directly affected and barely noticed (if at all) by the general public.

The success or failure of the speed limit is easily quantifiable... How many tickets written? at what time/conditions? what was the outcome of the ticket? fine paid (no contest in court)? fine paid (contested in court)? no fine (case dismissed in court)? How much did the MP spend on enforcement? Cost of Patrols? Court Costs?

I suspect the number of boat registrations will be down this year and next given the state of things... this DIRECTLY affects MP funding and staffing levels. Cost will become (as I predicted a long time ago) a very big part of the speed limit equation...

Woodsy

OCDACTIVE · 04-22-2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

The success or failure of the speed limit is easily quantifiable... How many tickets written? at what time/conditions? what was the outcome of the ticket? fine paid (no contest in court)? fine paid (contested in court)? no fine (case dismissed in court)? How much did the MP spend on enforcement? Cost of Patrols? Court Costs?

I suspect the number of boat registrations will be down this year and next given the state of things... this DIRECTLY affects MP funding and staffing levels. Cost will become (as I predicted a long time ago) a very big part of the speed limit equation...

Woodsy

WOW Skip and Woodsy way to get to the heart of the subject.. I just wanted to chime in and say I am greatly impressed to the clarity of your posts. Top notch!

Woodsy I really like how you broke down the quantifiable costs of the limit itself. My only question is where would we get that information? I wonder if they will even post the data or if it is even calculated at all.

Although opposed to the SL or many different aspects I will say I think they would have worked better as money generator for the state if it was not linked to your MVR.

Just think about how many more people are going to fight their tickets and how much it will cost the state. Not to mention even before they were inacted how much difficulty proving accuracy.

Anyway, just wanted to say Thank you both for your posts. They show why this thread has value.

ITD · 04-22-2009, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Skip...

I
The success or failure of the speed limit is easily quantifiable... How many tickets written? at what time/conditions? what was the outcome of the ticket? fine paid (no contest in court)? fine paid (contested in court)? no fine (case dismissed in court)? How much did the MP spend on enforcement? Cost of Patrols? Court Costs?

I suspect the number of boat registrations will be down this year and next given the state of things... this DIRECTLY affects MP funding and staffing levels. Cost will become (as I predicted a long time ago) a very big part of the speed limit equation...

Woodsy

I too am very curious as to how this will shake out. I'm not sure I agree with the statement that the speed limit success or failure is easily quantified or that I really understand your point. I think from my experience on the lake and the much poo pooed MP data from last year that there aren't too many boats going over 45 mph, except for a few instances. So I don't think too many speeding tickets will be written. MP will probably be pilloried for this. I do expect to see MP boats changing course to try and clock me on my jet ski, we'll see.

Anyway, I predict a very interesting boating season.

Lakepilot · 04-22-2009, 07:56 PM

We have a 25 foot Cobalt that wide open goes real fast. I don't think of it as a go fast boat, but it is. But even though it goes like a bat out of you know where, our most enjoyable times are just cruising around the lake, looking at other boats, cottages or the mountains. I do that at a speed well below wide open throttle. It just feels better. My choice of speed is apparently a lot easier then many others though. My bow angle is almost independent of speed - as is my wake. I don't like crawling around the lake - takes to long to see things. I can't imagine just opening the throttle thow and going around the lake at full speed. I would miss a lot. I guess when I was younger I got a thrill out of wanting to go as fast as possible from a to b, but now I just want to enjoy the lake.

Skip · 04-22-2009, 10:15 PM

I guess I am extremely disappointed.

While I was concerned at the beginning of this thread that it would eventually spiral back into the speed limit debate, I realized that there is still a lot of passion about the issue and this thread contains posts from good people on both sides of that issue that were trying to explore a different angle, the possible economic impact.

That said something still didn't set right with me. So, being the curious individual that I am I poked around some other websites tonight. I won't name names nor will I dredge up the other sites, but suffice to say I found the smoking gun. It is obvious to me that at least one (and possibly several)poster in this thread does not truly care about the diverse opinions regarding possible economic impacts. I was very troubled to read some of the extremely negative comments this individual has made against this website and against posters here that were enticed to offer their opinions.

Don, this thread is going nowhere fast. While I believe the original poster was sincere in his question, this thread and discussion has become a trojan horse for at least one organization that has savaged this website, it's posters and you, our webmaster.

I vote that you close this thread immediately.

Thanks...

VtSteve · 04-23-2009, 06:12 AM

I think I see what you mean Skip, but possibly overreacting, or maybe I'm just naive in hoping people grow up. I see what you see too, and I think it hurts the balanced and objective arguments more on one side than another. Not too surprising given the time of year, and the new year's issues. There are less than civil discussions going on, but this one has remained pretty open in my opinion.

For those that do engage in the type of behavior that Skip is addressing. That attitude is part of the reason many laws are being written across the country. I would specifically point to the Maine case as being a poster ad for stricter limits. If people don't think you're mature enough to even understand their concerns, then they'll find a way to curb your activities. Even though I don't agree with the outcome, I fully understand why it happened.

I also understand that failing to address the concerns of the other side will not help your cause. Attacking people and other such in your face actions pretty much rule out any form of negotiations. Without constructive discussion, it gives people the impression that some people need adult supervisions.

I hope you've viewed most of my blathering as constructive here Skip. With exceptions, all sides have been aired out. One thing for sure. The lake will always be an attraction, recessions or not.

sa meredith · 04-23-2009, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skip

I guess I am extremely disappointed.

While I was concerned at the beginning of this thread that it would eventually spiral back into the speed limit debate, I realized that there is still a lot of passion about the issue and this thread contains posts from good people on both sides of that issue that were trying to explore a different angle, the possible economic impact.

That said something still didn't set right with me. So, being the curious individual that I am I poked around some other websites tonight. I won't name names nor will I dredge up the other sites, but suffice to say I found the smoking gun. It is obvious to me that at least one (and possibly several)poster in this thread does not truly care about the diverse opinions regarding possible economic impacts. I was very troubled to read some of the extremely negative comments this individual has made against this website and against posters here that were enticed to offer their opinions.

Don, this thread is going nowhere fast. While I believe the original poster was sincere in his question, this thread and discussion has become a trojan horse for at least one organization that has savaged this website, it's posters and you, our webmaster.

I vote that you close this thread immediately.

Thanks...

Well said Skip.
I made the exact same point in post #50 of this thread:

But they have long since turned into the same regurgitated garbage over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again! All this thread is, is a disguise to start it up again. Anyone can see this

It has been obvious from the start. Surprised Don has let it contiue.
The sarcasm disguised as politeness in many posts here is almost comical

VtSteve · 04-23-2009, 09:59 AM

I mostly agree with your post #50 SA. This summer will be a tough one for boaters, not to mention the continued drought in the boat business. Every group likes to think they're the most important, which I sense is the feeling some have regarding their relative importance on the lake's economy.

I think the most obvious economic impact this season will be those that couldn't recover from unwise spending from home refis and interest rate adjustments. This will have some impact on properties for sale, boats not launched, and probably will lessen the traffic on the lake in general. The rest will have to make choices if money's tight. Do we go out in the boat every weekend, or just sit back and hang out? Dining out or eating in? Basics of life.

I saw decreased activity last summer due to the gas prices. Two groups "seemed" to be impacted the most, from my own totally unscientific observations. Less flashy boats bombing around. I surmise these are the folks that bought expensive machines they really could not afford to run anyway, especially at $5 a gallon. House as ATM machine and all that. Recreational boaters were much more sedate, mostly at anchor rather than bussing around. But last summer was dreadful weather, so taking that into account, who really knows?

The Lakes Region has survived many economic downturns, like to one in the 80's where it seemed every other waterfront property was for sale. It will continue to survive as it always has. Just another reminder that huge debt leverage and living beyond your means usually ends badly.

hazelnut · 04-23-2009, 10:23 AM

I think the melodramatic posts could use a rest here. I did my own detective work and came across the same posts you did skip. Seriously though we are all adults here and we can choose not to read a forum if we think it may offend us, god forbid. So far I haven't seen anything that has even approached close to the old debate. Seriously though this is a forum for ideas and debate. As soon as someone offers up an opinion that you don't like we need to shut it down???

Skip I really do believe that you and SA are very knowledgeable excellent posters but I do believe you are overreacting a tad. Almost 5,000 hits on this thread to me means that people are interested in the topic. So Don please don't be so quick to close. There is a valid argument somewhere in all of this superfluous junk. I think we can all tolerate the occasional poster lamenting the law and not staying on topic. We're adults here folks try and moderate yourselves so Don doesn't.

webmaster · 04-23-2009, 11:58 AM

This topic is closed until further notice.

OCDACTIVE · 08-05-2009, 03:59 PM

Now that the season is half over, and the debate has been opened up, is there any evidence and data people can attest to due to the limits either way? I realize as pointed out be an earlier poster back in the beginning of the season the lakes economy is going to be effected most by weather and overall fiscal economy more so then speed limits.

Well we have seen for sure how much the weather has directly effected boat turn out which can also be attributed to the overall economy. But has anyone spoken to those we were most concerned about? Gas station owners, on the lake resturants etc? to get a feel for if they have seen a slowdown in GFB's and if it has effected them?

I would be interested to hear any thought, facts and do I dare say "opinions" on the matter.

Although a previous poster alluded to there being an underlying attempt to push an agenda here. I think many people would like to continue this dialog about the lakes economy including myself.

ApS · 08-06-2009, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

"...I would be interested to hear any thought, facts and do I dare say "opinions" on the matter..."

This is not an opinion:

My realtor's agent (Maxfield Realty) sent out a letter this past April requesting that cottage rentals for this season be reduced up to 40%.

My three "rentable" neighbors (directly to the west) have been filled all season—the first season this has happened!

("Ebbtide" boats—with rental numbers—have been featured).

08-05-2009, 03:59 PM	#11
OCDACTIVE Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Fort Myers FL / Moultonboro Posts: 1,045 Thanks: 444 Thanked 574 Times in 178 Posts	Now that the season is half over, and the debate has been opened up, is there any evidence and data people can attest to due to the limits either way? I realize as pointed out be an earlier poster back in the beginning of the season the lakes economy is going to be effected most by weather and overall fiscal economy more so then speed limits. Well we have seen for sure how much the weather has directly effected boat turn out which can also be attributed to the overall economy. But has anyone spoken to those we were most concerned about? Gas station owners, on the lake resturants etc? to get a feel for if they have seen a slowdown in GFB's and if it has effected them? I would be interested to hear any thought, facts and do I dare say "opinions" on the matter. Although a previous poster alluded to there being an underlying attempt to push an agenda here. I think many people would like to continue this dialog about the lakes economy including myself. __________________ Have you had your Vessel Inspected Yet?

04-22-2009, 07:56 PM	#4
Lakepilot Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 446 Thanks: 70 Thanked 57 Times in 40 Posts	We have a 25 foot Cobalt that wide open goes real fast. I don't think of it as a go fast boat, but it is. But even though it goes like a bat out of you know where, our most enjoyable times are just cruising around the lake, looking at other boats, cottages or the mountains. I do that at a speed well below wide open throttle. It just feels better. My choice of speed is apparently a lot easier then many others though. My bow angle is almost independent of speed - as is my wake. I don't like crawling around the lake - takes to long to see things. I can't imagine just opening the throttle thow and going around the lake at full speed. I would miss a lot. I guess when I was younger I got a thrill out of wanting to go as fast as possible from a to b, but now I just want to enjoy the lake.

04-22-2009, 10:15 PM	#5
Skip Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Dover, NH Posts: 1,615 Thanks: 256 Thanked 514 Times in 182 Posts	Trojan horse.... I guess I am extremely disappointed. While I was concerned at the beginning of this thread that it would eventually spiral back into the speed limit debate, I realized that there is still a lot of passion about the issue and this thread contains posts from good people on both sides of that issue that were trying to explore a different angle, the possible economic impact. That said something still didn't set right with me. So, being the curious individual that I am I poked around some other websites tonight. I won't name names nor will I dredge up the other sites, but suffice to say I found the smoking gun. It is obvious to me that at least one (and possibly several)poster in this thread does not truly care about the diverse opinions regarding possible economic impacts. I was very troubled to read some of the extremely negative comments this individual has made against this website and against posters here that were enticed to offer their opinions. Don, this thread is going nowhere fast. While I believe the original poster was sincere in his question, this thread and discussion has become a trojan horse for at least one organization that has savaged this website, it's posters and you, our webmaster. I vote that you close this thread immediately. Thanks...

04-23-2009, 06:12 AM	#6
VtSteve Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,320 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 230 Thanked 361 Times in 169 Posts	I think I see what you mean Skip, but possibly overreacting, or maybe I'm just naive in hoping people grow up. I see what you see too, and I think it hurts the balanced and objective arguments more on one side than another. Not too surprising given the time of year, and the new year's issues. There are less than civil discussions going on, but this one has remained pretty open in my opinion. For those that do engage in the type of behavior that Skip is addressing. That attitude is part of the reason many laws are being written across the country. I would specifically point to the Maine case as being a poster ad for stricter limits. If people don't think you're mature enough to even understand their concerns, then they'll find a way to curb your activities. Even though I don't agree with the outcome, I fully understand why it happened. I also understand that failing to address the concerns of the other side will not help your cause. Attacking people and other such in your face actions pretty much rule out any form of negotiations. Without constructive discussion, it gives people the impression that some people need adult supervisions. I hope you've viewed most of my blathering as constructive here Skip. With exceptions, all sides have been aired out. One thing for sure. The lake will always be an attraction, recessions or not.

04-23-2009, 09:59 AM	#8
VtSteve Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,320 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 230 Thanked 361 Times in 169 Posts	I mostly agree with your post #50 SA. This summer will be a tough one for boaters, not to mention the continued drought in the boat business. Every group likes to think they're the most important, which I sense is the feeling some have regarding their relative importance on the lake's economy. I think the most obvious economic impact this season will be those that couldn't recover from unwise spending from home refis and interest rate adjustments. This will have some impact on properties for sale, boats not launched, and probably will lessen the traffic on the lake in general. The rest will have to make choices if money's tight. Do we go out in the boat every weekend, or just sit back and hang out? Dining out or eating in? Basics of life. I saw decreased activity last summer due to the gas prices. Two groups "seemed" to be impacted the most, from my own totally unscientific observations. Less flashy boats bombing around. I surmise these are the folks that bought expensive machines they really could not afford to run anyway, especially at $5 a gallon. House as ATM machine and all that. Recreational boaters were much more sedate, mostly at anchor rather than bussing around. But last summer was dreadful weather, so taking that into account, who really knows? The Lakes Region has survived many economic downturns, like to one in the 80's where it seemed every other waterfront property was for sale. It will continue to survive as it always has. Just another reminder that huge debt leverage and living beyond your means usually ends badly.

04-23-2009, 10:23 AM	#9
hazelnut Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,348 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 508 Thanked 462 Times in 162 Posts	I think the melodramatic posts could use a rest here. I did my own detective work and came across the same posts you did skip. Seriously though we are all adults here and we can choose not to read a forum if we think it may offend us, god forbid. So far I haven't seen anything that has even approached close to the old debate. Seriously though this is a forum for ideas and debate. As soon as someone offers up an opinion that you don't like we need to shut it down??? Skip I really do believe that you and SA are very knowledgeable excellent posters but I do believe you are overreacting a tad. Almost 5,000 hits on this thread to me means that people are interested in the topic. So Don please don't be so quick to close. There is a valid argument somewhere in all of this superfluous junk. I think we can all tolerate the occasional poster lamenting the law and not staying on topic. We're adults here folks try and moderate yourselves so Don doesn't.

04-23-2009, 11:58 AM	#10
webmaster Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 2,460 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 459 Thanked 3,944 Times in 843 Posts	This topic is closed until further notice.