wow trail opposed

DJS-Laconia · 06-11-2009, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by no-engine

I have x-c skied along the SDS RR tracks in winter, from Laconia Country Club to Hilliard Road I think it's called. One can not be stopped for trespassing. Does the sewer line follow the tracks, as I do not recall there. It does in Meredith to Weirs! From there it must be along that side of Paugus Bay! Where else, but the tracks for the interceptor line to the Winnipesaukee River Basin Regional Treatment Plant in Franklin?

Far too numerous to count, I have been on the tracks & adjacent sewer line from Meredith to Weirs and along Scenic Road to Lakeside Road in to the heart of "Weirs" area. All public ways through Grousse Point, Needle Eye Road, Neal Shores areas and other sites along the route. I even chatted with home owners. The time of year has been summer on a bicycle or walking, and winter on X-C skis or snowshoes - never motorized, but there are also snow machines in winter and off road dirt motorbikes bikes in summer. All users I've seen treat neighboring private property with respect, staying on the public ways!

I don't think any land-owner association, land owner, community, or whatever group can possibly say no trespassing, along the RR and/or sewer right of ways.

I've also been on the former tracks now multi-use path in Somerville, Arlington, Watertown, etc. Very nice for all uses!

WOW should move forward and the SDS communities should agree and join in peacefully; in the end it'll actually benefit those unit owners, with the abundance of uses to enjoy!

You are wrong... This is not an opinion. This is fact. The public can not walk on the track or on the railroad property at all. You need a lease and an insurance policy to cross the track. There should be no trespassing signs but it is fairly obvious that it is not a path but a Railroad...

Woodsy · 06-11-2009, 10:23 AM

DJS...

You are obviously a property owner that is directly affected by the WOW trail. Your idea of deeding property owners waterfront access is ludicrous at best. Why would that be in the interest of people of NH? A one time sale of a valuable asset is NEVER a good thing! Once that shoreline is deeded to people like you, the rest of public will no longer have access!

Its amazing the amount of wrong information your posting as facts...

1. The RR ROW (Right of Way) belongs to the STATE OF NH (and by default the citizens of NH), not the RR. The Hobo RR leases the tracks from the state. The STATE owns most of, if not all of the waterfront that abuts the RR ROW. (There is a thread here about shoreline leases... its good read. I am sure that battle will be revived soon enough)

2. The RR ROW along the shores of Lake Winnipesaukee is a Corridor Trail and as such can be used in the winter (once the NH Trails Bureau has posted it OPEN) for recreational purposes such as snowmobiling, XC skiing, hiking etc.

3. The Public is prohibited wallk ALONG the RR ROW, however, it is allowed to cross the RR ROW in certain instances... Just ask all the folks who lease the land on the other side from the state! SDS is one of the bigger developments that lease the shoreline from the state.

4. There is a Bill that has passed or is about to pass that will indemnify the RR from injuries that may occur trailside... This alleviates most of the legal entanglements and insurance liability costs of the WOW trail.

5. The Laconia PD has some of the best bicycle cops in the business, I am sure the WOW trail will get the same proffesional attention as the rest of the city does.

The fact is that the residents of SDS and others don't OWN the waterfront or the RR ROW. Its in the best interests of the Citizens of NH to insure access to all, not just a priveledged few. I can understand thier position, however they bought thier property knowing that there were no guarantees to water access.

Woodsy

Resident 2B · 06-11-2009, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

DJS...

Its amazing the amount of wrong information your posting as facts...

1. The RR ROW (Right of Way) belongs to the STATE OF NH (and by default the citizens of NH), not the RR. The Hobo RR leases the tracks from the state. The STATE owns most of, if not all of the waterfront that abuts the RR ROW. (There is a thread here about shoreline leases... its good read. I am sure that battle will be revived soon enough)

2. The RR ROW along the shores of Lake Winnipesaukee is a Corridor Trail and as such can be used in the winter (once the NH Trails Bureau has posted it OPEN) for recreational purposes such as snowmobiling, XC skiing, hiking etc.

3. The Public is prohibited wallk ALONG the RR ROW, however, it is allowed to cross the RR ROW in certain instances... Just ask all the folks who lease the land on the other side from the state! SDS is one of the bigger developments that lease the shoreline from the state.

4. There is a Bill that has passed or is about to pass that will indemnify the RR from injuries that may occur trailside... This alleviates most of the legal entanglements and insurance liability costs of the WOW trail.

5. The Laconia PD has some of the best bicycle cops in the business, I am sure the WOW trail will get the same proffesional attention as the rest of the city does.

The fact is that the residents of SDS and others don't OWN the waterfront or the RR ROW. Its in the best interests of the Citizens of NH to insure access to all, not just a priveledged few. I can understand thier position, however they bought thier property knowing that there were no guarantees to water access.

Woodsy

Woodsy,

Great posting of the facts!

I have no idea where DJS is getting his or her information, but it is clearly incorrect. Your post certainly clears up the misinformation supplied by DJS.

It is looking more and more like the WOW trail from the Weirs to Laconia will be happening. I think this will be a great addition to the recreational venues offered to the citizens of NH and to the tourists who's money helps so many local businesses.

R2B

fatlazyless · 06-11-2009, 01:52 PM

The biggest problem with bicycling in the lakes region are the hills and sharing the road with car traffic. The WOW trail would be nine miles long x 12 feet wide asphalt pavement, mostly very flat, and free of car traffic.

Most everyone can ride a bicycle till they turn 101 when their knees start to get a little stiff. It's good exercise, low cost, and bike trails get used as soon as the snow melts off them in late March.

It would be a business booster for locally owned small businesses like bike rentals-repair, and food in the Weirs. As it is now, the Weirs has a very long, winter off-season.

krm · 06-11-2009, 03:23 PM

How much are they projecting the wow trail will cost? Is that accurate 9 miles long with 12' feet of asphalt?

DJS-Laconia · 06-11-2009, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

DJS...

You are obviously a property owner that is directly affected by the WOW trail. Your idea of deeding property owners waterfront access is ludicrous at best. Why would that be in the interest of people of NH? A one time sale of a valuable asset is NEVER a good thing! Once that shoreline is deeded to people like you, the rest of public will no longer have access!

Its amazing the amount of wrong information your posting as facts...

1. The RR ROW (Right of Way) belongs to the STATE OF NH (and by default the citizens of NH), not the RR. The Hobo RR leases the tracks from the state. The STATE owns most of, if not all of the waterfront that abuts the RR ROW. (There is a thread here about shoreline leases... its good read. I am sure that battle will be revived soon enough)

2. The RR ROW along the shores of Lake Winnipesaukee is a Corridor Trail and as such can be used in the winter (once the NH Trails Bureau has posted it OPEN) for recreational purposes such as snowmobiling, XC skiing, hiking etc.

3. The Public is prohibited wallk ALONG the RR ROW, however, it is allowed to cross the RR ROW in certain instances... Just ask all the folks who lease the land on the other side from the state! SDS is one of the bigger developments that lease the shoreline from the state.

4. There is a Bill that has passed or is about to pass that will indemnify the RR from injuries that may occur trailside... This alleviates most of the legal entanglements and insurance liability costs of the WOW trail.

5. The Laconia PD has some of the best bicycle cops in the business, I am sure the WOW trail will get the same proffesional attention as the rest of the city does.

The fact is that the residents of SDS and others don't OWN the waterfront or the RR ROW. Its in the best interests of the Citizens of NH to insure access to all, not just a priveledged few. I can understand thier position, however they bought thier property knowing that there were no guarantees to water access.

Woodsy

Ok, Lets back up here. I do not need you to tell me who I am and where I live.

This is where it gets interesting... A few posts advise that the Water access is the right of the NH people. If a Bike path were to go in, it would be a bike and walking path only. It would not be a swimming trail. Have you been to the shore of Paugus Bay? Bolders and rocks and railroad debris line the shoreline. No one will have access to the water. After all, arn't you purposing a "BIKE PATH"

So you do agree that a lease is needed to cross the track? So where is your lease? Can I see a copy of your lease? Can I get a copy of your insurance policy to cover injury when crossing the track?

I value your opinion on the Police Bike Taskforce but when a home is broken into or vandalized it is simply going to be a case of.. Maybe we will catch them next time.. please fill out this report. So, will the WOW trail people pay for the detail officers needed for ALL of bike week. They usually need to bring in Campus police and the National Guard for help. But now we will have a 9 mile path of crime to monitor.

I am not associated with SDS but I do know that Southdown only leases a small amount of land from the state. Most of the waterfront is owned. No one, not even the Pope would have access over thru or under the tracks. It may be a good idea if you drive down to City Hall in Laconia and see the SDS plot plan. Only the area that is leased and not owned by SDS is where the docks are located. The public will NEVER have access to the water for that whole stretch of land.

The idea of deeding the property to the land owners is a good idea. Before the railroad came into Laconia it was taken from the property owners. Why shouldn't it be deeded back in the same way. Why should they need to "share the land with you". I do think that it should be deeded back and that the land be then taxed as waterfront.

A bike path is a complete waste of taxpayers money. Fix a bridge, Fix a road, Maybe a school system.

When you say that it should be open to all and not the privileged few. It is available to you at a cost. Work Hard, Save your money and buy a place on the lake and stop waiting for another Bail out!!!

krm · 06-11-2009, 03:44 PM

There is no way it is worth the bill...
9 miles x 5280 LF x 12' wide = 570,240 SF / 9 =63,360 SY x .057 x 3" thick asphalt = 10,834 tons of asphalt @ $90/ton = $975,110 just for the asphalt and that is @ $90 per ton they will be very luck to get that price once this thing gets off the ground. The trail will have at least 9" of crush gravel =570,240 SF x (9/12) /27 = 15,840 CY (this price may very but on the cheap side lets say $18 in place) so 15,840 CY x $18 = $285,120. I could go all day if people are interested, on top of this 1.26mm you need to do cut/fill, treatment swales, bioretention cells, the list goes on...

Personally it sounds great but I don't feel like paying taxes for it

chipj29 · 06-11-2009, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJS-Laconia

Ok, Lets back up here. I do not need you to tell me who I am and where I live.

I value your opinion on the Police Bike Taskforce but when a home is broken into or vandalized it is simply going to be a case of.. Maybe we will catch them next time.. please fill out this report. So, will the WOW trail people pay for the detail of officers needed for ALL of bike week. The need to bring in Campus police and the National Guard for help. But now we will have a 9 mile path of crime to monitor.

I'm sorry, but the bolded cracked me up.

A 9 mile path of crime????

jrc · 06-11-2009, 04:00 PM

So the bike path will be on the lake side of the tracks right? And the fence will be between the path and the tracks. Are you seriously saying that no one will swim from the bike path? No one will bike down the path, find a nice spot and dive in? That is one good reason to build the trail.

I see dozens of people walking down the shoulders of the track today and swimming. BTW I never checked there leases or insurance.

Woodsy says that the track is open to the public in the winter, is he lying? Or do all those winter people have to have leases and insurance.

Personally I think that fence component of the bike path makes it ugly and very undesirable. But I love the idea of a hiking trail along the waterfront.

Lets face facts, the tracks and the land that they are on belong to the state of NH. Eventually the tourist railroad will lose interest and their lease will expire, they can't be making that much money and tourism is a fickle industry.

At that point, should the state give away 9 miles of prime water front? The land owners may have lost that land to eminent domain years ago but they were compensated, maybe they will pay to get it back or maybe it will become a 9 mile long park.

On the crime front, it's hard for me to believe that crime will be a big issue. The track/trail is right out in the open.

krm · 06-11-2009, 04:08 PM

you absolutely need a crossing agreement in place with NH DOT or you are trespassing in the summer. Trust me on this.

jrc · 06-11-2009, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krm

you absolutely need a crossing agreement in place with NH DOT or you are trespassing in the summer. Trust me on this.

I really didn't mean to get into that discussion, I'm sure some of those people are tresspassing. I was really trying to address the swimming from the trail point. People will swim from the trail, they already do.

And just because they may be tresspassing, doesn't mean they are commiting a crime, in NH criminal tresspassing requires that you know that you are tresspassing.

brk-lnt · 06-11-2009, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

I really didn't mean to get into that discussion, I'm sure some of those people are tresspassing. I was really trying to address the swimming from the trail point. People will swim from the trail, they already do.

And just because they may be tresspassing, doesn't mean they are commiting a crime, in NH criminal tresspassing requires that you know that you are tresspassing.

Much of the Paugus Bay shoreline along the tracks is very rocky and not very "swimable".

There are a couple of private beaches in SDS, but those are private and would be no more open to random swimmer usage than any other privately owned beachfront along the lake.

The 9 mile crime trail statement is a tad extreme, but also rooted in reality. As was mentioned elsewhere, similar trails in MA *HAVE* seen a concentration of crimes. Of course it is not vacationers coming to commit crimes, it is local people taking advantage of people who do not know the trails and surroundings very well.

The speculation that this trail is the ONE thing missing in the lakes region to stimulate the economy and getting all NH citizens out in the happy sunshine enjoying their birthright is a complete pipedream.

Most people are in favor of public recreational developments, provided that those developments are well thought out and do not become unmaintained eyesores. The existing portions of the WOW trail already have disrepair of the fences, trash and debris collected along the trails, and when I've looked in on them at random times, do not seem to have any measurable usage.

As a disclaimer, I am an SDS homeowner. I do not have any real problem with normal law-abiding people who want to stroll along the water way (which they can mostly do today). I *do* have a very real concern that a group of socialite activists is going to come through and plop in some pavement and an ugly fence, and then move on to some other "cause" while the WOW trail becomes the "Wow, look at that decrepit pathway" trail.

DJS-Laconia · 06-12-2009, 08:45 AM

I agree with brk-int,

But I think the crime would be worse than a bike path in a non vacation area. People on vacation come to visit and lets face it, If you do not have a vested interest or don't plan on visiting a again then why would they care. Trash will be a major issue. Debris from picnics, food wrappers and plastics would all end up in the water.

I am also going back a little bit to an earlier post where someone had mentioned that this project could be classified as shovel ready and it could be all done by hand with shovels using the unemployed or those seeking jobs. Lets be a bit more realistic, Only about 3% of the unemployed or job seeking crowd would be able to keep up for more then 1/2 day of that kind of work. It is 2009, and people are lazy. Plus, why would people work on a project for a low wage to be then out of a job when it is complete. That just prolongs the issue. Why not use some of the stimulus money for job-retraining. That way someone in a career path with no job outlook could switch to a new career. I am sure that this exsists today but it should be funded more, especially in this economy.

If you think the land owners were compensated for the state comming thru with a railroad you are crazy. It was taken and used to support the growing state and countries rail system. That was a much more noble cause than this project to make sure everyone gets a swim.

ITD · 06-12-2009, 09:33 AM

I think you are grasping at straws with the crime angle. I live in a community with a rail trail, and there has been very little crime associated with the trail. I am on the trail at least once a week and there is no litter, just many people enjoying many different types of recreation.

There were many predictions like you have made before the trail went in, none have come true, the trail is one of the few things the government has done right in Massachusetts.

As far as everyone being lazy, well you're wrong there too. As far as digging it by hand, I missed that comment, it must have been a joke.

Ah, just found the dig it by hand comment, it was Less, that guy is funny.

jrc · 06-12-2009, 09:49 AM

I'm not a big fan of a paved, fenced in trail either. But that doesn't means I agree with weak arguements against it. I too live near and frequent a rail trail. The trial starts at the Nashua/Hollis line and goes along the Nashua river into Mass. It's a nice trail and always clean. Many points are deep in the woods and secluded, crime could happen. There are sexual predators in the world. But come on you could make the same arguement about the Mount Major hiking trail.

Less is a jokster, no one thinks shovel ready means work gangs of the unemployed. It means ready for the governement to give money to a contractor. Now is that a good use of goverment funds, well that's a different discussion. There are worse uses currently occuring.

Sman · 06-12-2009, 10:40 AM

I haven't read every detail of this post, but if you have ever been on a bike trail that is well planned out and provides access to more than just a view, they are real great. I biked more on a long weekend in Indiana last yr than I have in the yr since. The trail in Indiana was in great shape, we biked about 10 miles each way from the apartment to get a plate of muscles and a cold beer and there were shops etc, no need for a car. I think they make more of an effort out there because they can and they don't have all the other cool stuff, ocean, mtns etc. Other places I can think of that I have been, The Erie Canal in NY has one that goes for miles. Washington DC has them...etc. Locals and visitors use them.

brk-lnt · 06-12-2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITD

I think you are grasping at straws with the crime angle. I live in a community with a rail trail, and there has been very little crime associated with the trail. I am on the trail at least once a week and there is no litter, just many people enjoying many different types of recreation.

Your perspective could be correct. I for one would like to see some valid data from the WOW folks outlining the expected on-going maintenance costs and how they plan to cover those costs.

I have seen and used trails that were well maintained, and poorly maintained. In Michigan, we had many state parks, and you had to pay an access fee it was like $2.00/day or $25.00/yr), and those fees went to the maintenance of the parks and trails.

Again, I have walked along the EXISTING portions of the WOW trail, and it's not a very impressive thing. There are already litter and maintenance problems along the trail. I'm not talking about a trail in MA. I'm not talking about a trail in southern NH. I'm talking about the existing trail that some people want to extend further.

I do not expect the trail to be a self-maintaining pristine pathway, some problems will occur, and that is to be expected. But I do expect a project like this to have a long-term net positive impact on the area. It should be inviting and pleasant to use. It should be the sort of thing that when a person comes up to the lakes region, they view it as a well engineered public use space, not a slapped-in sidewalk.

Not that it hasn't been done before, but I think that a putting a public walkway next to an active railway isn't really a great idea. The WOW trail, to me, is coming across as an idea with good intentions but extremely poor planning and implementation. In addition to the crime and litter comments, what is the plan for dealing with the areas around the weirs where it seems like there will be some major costs to route the trail?

Does the entire trail REALLY have to go along the waterway? Can it not be something like the MinuteMan trail in Boston and go past a number of key attractions? It would seem that routing this up Union Ave instead of 106 would have much more net positive impact on local businesses.

DJS-Laconia · 06-12-2009, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

Your perspective could be correct. I for one would like to see some valid data from the WOW folks outlining the expected on-going maintenance costs and how they plan to cover those costs.

I have seen and used trails that were well maintained, and poorly maintained. In Michigan, we had many state parks, and you had to pay an access fee it was like $2.00/day or $25.00/yr), and those fees went to the maintenance of the parks and trails.

Again, I have walked along the EXISTING portions of the WOW trail, and it's not a very impressive thing. There are already litter and maintenance problems along the trail. I'm not talking about a trail in MA. I'm not talking about a trail in southern NH. I'm talking about the existing trail that some people want to extend further.

I do not expect the trail to be a self-maintaining pristine pathway, some problems will occur, and that is to be expected. But I do expect a project like this to have a long-term net positive impact on the area. It should be inviting and pleasant to use. It should be the sort of thing that when a person comes up to the lakes region, they view it as a well engineered public use space, not a slapped-in sidewalk.

Not that it hasn't been done before, but I think that a putting a public walkway next to an active railway isn't really a great idea. The WOW trail, to me, is coming across as an idea with good intentions but extremely poor planning and implementation. In addition to the crime and litter comments, what is the plan for dealing with the areas around the weirs where it seems like there will be some major costs to route the trail?

Does the entire trail REALLY have to go along the waterway? Can it not be something like the MinuteMan trail in Boston and go past a number of key attractions? It would seem that routing this up Union Ave instead of 106 would have much more net positive impact on local businesses.

I agree- Re-route it to Union ave and help the Local Buisness owners out.

***Do we really need 63,360 Square feet of asphalt all along the shoreline. All of a sudden its ok to do this? Yet you can't sneeze on a tree within 50 feet of the water.

That is hypocrisy at its worst.

****Do you want this guy hanging around your house.. He is the Bike Path Rapist. He used the bike path in Cheektowaga, NY to prey on his victoms. There is a whole book dedicated to the events that took place there. A small suburban bike path.

If you google bike trail crime you will get thousands of entries. Many of these entries are about rapes and murders that have occurred on bike trails. Some of the entries are about bike trails that are being closed down because of crime.

Bike Trail Rapist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>VVVVVV

fatnoah · 06-19-2009, 10:26 AM

Has anyone actually biked Union Avenue? I grew up in Laconia (LA as I like to tell people) and used a bike as my main form of transportation all the way through high school.

People can already walk and bike on Union Ave. It's not that exciting (or hasn't been to me at least since Goody-Good closed) and has so much traffic and so many intersections that it would be more an endurance test than a pleasurable ride/walk/whatever.

A major part of the appeal of recreational paths is that they are NOT local roads. Rail-trails have the added benefit of being generally flat, no sharp curves, etc. that help to make the trails available to all ages and many modes of transportation.

Underneath all of the over-the-top hyperbole, DJS does make valid points. The trail should be constructed in such a way so as to respect the rights of lake-front property owners. Look at the bright side, if the trail goes through and properties get trashed, then property values and taxes should go down...right?

fatlazyless · 09-11-2009, 08:53 PM

The first leg of the first phase got started this week with tree removal running from the Laconia Public Library to Messer St. Am not too familiar with this area but believe it runs along a railroad track.

Issues of contention:

- Federal stimulus funding helps to power up the W.O.W. Trail construction.

- The unwanted five foot chain link fence and insurance liability.

A twelve foot wide by nine mile long asphalt bungle.....whoops....I mean paved trail...... through Belmont-Laconia-Weirs-Meredith. Will it really get built.......time will tell?

fatlazyless · 11-23-2009, 09:51 PM

Anyone see the front page article on this in today's, Monday Nov 23 Laconia Daily Sun. South Down Shore has been building up a lawyer's fund to fight the WOW Trail from crossing its waterfront area. And, apparently back in 1983 when South Down Shore was created, the State of NH created a railroad right of way easement for a bicycle trail. And after 25 years, it certainly seems like the WOW Trail will test the existance of the easment in order to build an asphalt paved bicycle trail.

The LaDaSun reports from its' top page article that the SDS-condo board has been piling up special assessments from all its' residents into a 'war chest' to fund a legal offensive against the W,O.W. Trail so's to stop it from crossing their waterfront.

It just seems to me that it could be a difficult and uphill battle for the SDS, but one never knows what will happen when the lawyers get involved. And, if you have the money to burn, then you can always find a lawyer or two or three who will be very pleased to go digging back through the legal history of the land use in a thorough and in-depth investigation. However, what with The W,O.W. being very strongly financed, litigated, and desired by all three of the federal, state, and local governments, the SDS better have lots of money to burn.

Probably, the SDS would be better off hiring engineers, as opposed to lawyers, who could design them a tunnel that would place the W.O.W Trail into the underground where it would be out of their SDS sight.

Heaven forbid the South Down Shore residents should be subjected to having to watch as other Laconians and lakes region visiters go pedal a bicycle along the shoreline of beautifull Paugus Bay, enroute to Weirs Beach and Meredith.

That's the solution, SDS should go dig themselves a tunnel!......

birchhaven · 11-24-2009, 10:04 AM

You may be on to something. Fighting the state is going to cost a lot of money and SDS will probably lose in the end. Why not try and work with the state SDS could spend the money on a nice fence, like a nice new england field stone wall about 3' high and 2' wide and then place a nice rod iron fence on top of it about 2' high so it does not block the view and it looks nice and very NH.

(disclaimer, I have mixed feelings about the trail, I think it would be nice, but it will ultimately cost way to much)

brk-lnt · 11-24-2009, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by birchhaven

You may be on to something. Fighting the state is going to cost a lot of money and SDS will probably lose in the end. Why not try and work with the state SDS could spend the money on a nice fence, like a nice new england field stone wall about 3' high and 2' wide and then place a nice rod iron fence on top of it about 2' high so it does not block the view and it looks nice and very NH.

(disclaimer, I have mixed feelings about the trail, I think it would be nice, but it will ultimately cost way to much)

Not sure what FLL is on about now, as he is on my ignore list.

Regarding the trail, it's not a "state" project, it's really more of a private project, so there is no fighting the state.

Also, the WOW folks seem to be rather unwilling to discuss any compromises or alternative plans. It's really kind of disappointing all around.

As far as money is concerned... The WOW folks are raising money to fund the trail, and any legal actions as well. There are a lot of residents in SDS, it wouldn't take much in terms of contributions per family to suck up a lot of resources from the WOW fund.

The best approach for the WOW folks would be to try to find a mutually-agreeable solution.

Woodsy · 11-24-2009, 12:35 PM

I think the SDS folks have a serious uphill battle to block or reroute the WOW trail.... for a few of reasons.

1. If the city easement for recreational path is in fact shown on the plot plan on file and mentioned in the planning and zoning board meeting minutes etc, there will be little SDS can do to invalidate that easement... especially if that easement was part & parcel to getting the project approved! In fact if the easement is found to be valid it may very well HURT the SDS claims. The RR corridor is approx 66'... the city owned recreational path easement may add to that width.... property that SDS currently claims ownership.

2. The WOW trail as currently configured sits within the 66' wide state owned railroad corridor. It does not impinge on SDS property at all. Unfortunately for SDS this is an active rail corridor, so the state has never reliquished any rights to the RR corridor. This will prevent SDS claiming any "squatter" type rights and try to block the trail that way...

3. The use of the rail corridor in the wintertime by snowmobiles & cross country skiers already sets a precedent for public use/crossing in front of SDS.

4. Lets not forget the state can refuse to renew the lease on the SDS waterfront if they really wanted to play hardball!

Judging from whats been published in the papers, it seems SDS best chance of blocking the path for the trail is to complain about POSSIBLE loss of property values, POSSIBLE crime, POSSIBLE trash and POSSIBLE upkeep?? Not really the best legal grounds....

Given the unlikely chance of successfully blocking the WOW trail from crossing in front of SDS and the exorbitant cost to mount such an opposition, I would negotiate to minimize the visual & economic impact on SDS... and instead market the WOW trail as a positive thing for member of the SDS community.

Woodsy

PS: While I am a fan of the WOW trail, I am not a fan of the stoopid rail fence either! I am pretty sure though that fence requirement was dropped when the legislature passed a bill indemnifying the railroads.....

brk-lnt · 11-24-2009, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

I think the SDS folks have a serious uphill battle to block or reroute the WOW trail.... for a few of reasons.

FWIW, I don't think the real opposition is to the trail itself, but moreso to the eyesore factor, which CAN be controlled.

Also, the WOW trails seems to be incompletely thought-out, there are other locations where the trail organizers will meet similar human and physical obstacles. Overall this project has the undertones of other "best intentions" projects that never get fully completed.

LongBay · 01-18-2010, 07:28 PM

NO MORE WOW!

I don't see anything WOW about taking a very prestine waterfront area and doing this..

AND THIS to it.
[IMG]ftp://www.laconiadailysun.com/Laconiapdf/2010/1/16L.pdf[/IMG]

These folks have no respect for the watershed providing drinking water for the city of Laconia. By bulldozing their way through the Winipesaukee watershed and wetlands they will turn the other side of Paugus Bay into yet another eye sore. We have enough eye sores in Laconia! They should focus their efforts on making the city look like a nice New England town. Look how Meredith transformed itself. Loconia can do the same with better leadership and vision. They are nothing but liars! They said there would not be any chain linked fences. Well, by the looks of the pictures taken and posted in the Laconia Sun on January 16th., not only do we have chain linked fences but lots of ugly cement retaining walls!

Anyone in the spray paint business may want to consider opening up a store in one of those vacated storefronts in downtown Laconia. There will be plenty of walls for those folks with not enough time on their hands to put their creativity to work.

"All in all it was just a brick in the wall.
All in all it was all just bricks in the wall." Pink Floyd, The Wall

06-11-2009, 10:23 AM	#2
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,966 Thanks: 80 Thanked 980 Times in 440 Posts	DJS... You are obviously a property owner that is directly affected by the WOW trail. Your idea of deeding property owners waterfront access is ludicrous at best. Why would that be in the interest of people of NH? A one time sale of a valuable asset is NEVER a good thing! Once that shoreline is deeded to people like you, the rest of public will no longer have access! Its amazing the amount of wrong information your posting as facts... 1. The RR ROW (Right of Way) belongs to the STATE OF NH (and by default the citizens of NH), not the RR. The Hobo RR leases the tracks from the state. The STATE owns most of, if not all of the waterfront that abuts the RR ROW. (There is a thread here about shoreline leases... its good read. I am sure that battle will be revived soon enough) 2. The RR ROW along the shores of Lake Winnipesaukee is a Corridor Trail and as such can be used in the winter (once the NH Trails Bureau has posted it OPEN) for recreational purposes such as snowmobiling, XC skiing, hiking etc. 3. The Public is prohibited wallk ALONG the RR ROW, however, it is allowed to cross the RR ROW in certain instances... Just ask all the folks who lease the land on the other side from the state! SDS is one of the bigger developments that lease the shoreline from the state. 4. There is a Bill that has passed or is about to pass that will indemnify the RR from injuries that may occur trailside... This alleviates most of the legal entanglements and insurance liability costs of the WOW trail. 5. The Laconia PD has some of the best bicycle cops in the business, I am sure the WOW trail will get the same proffesional attention as the rest of the city does. The fact is that the residents of SDS and others don't OWN the waterfront or the RR ROW. Its in the best interests of the Citizens of NH to insure access to all, not just a priveledged few. I can understand thier position, however they bought thier property knowing that there were no guarantees to water access. Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

06-11-2009, 01:52 PM	#4
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,778 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,022 Times in 744 Posts	The biggest problem with bicycling in the lakes region are the hills and sharing the road with car traffic. The WOW trail would be nine miles long x 12 feet wide asphalt pavement, mostly very flat, and free of car traffic. Most everyone can ride a bicycle till they turn 101 when their knees start to get a little stiff. It's good exercise, low cost, and bike trails get used as soon as the snow melts off them in late March. It would be a business booster for locally owned small businesses like bike rentals-repair, and food in the Weirs. As it is now, the Weirs has a very long, winter off-season. __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

06-11-2009, 03:23 PM	#5
krm Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 39 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	how much? How much are they projecting the wow trail will cost? Is that accurate 9 miles long with 12' feet of asphalt?

06-11-2009, 03:44 PM	#7
krm Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 39 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	quick math There is no way it is worth the bill... 9 miles x 5280 LF x 12' wide = 570,240 SF / 9 =63,360 SY x .057 x 3" thick asphalt = 10,834 tons of asphalt @ $90/ton = $975,110 just for the asphalt and that is @ $90 per ton they will be very luck to get that price once this thing gets off the ground. The trail will have at least 9" of crush gravel =570,240 SF x (9/12) /27 = 15,840 CY (this price may very but on the cheap side lets say $18 in place) so 15,840 CY x $18 = $285,120. I could go all day if people are interested, on top of this 1.26mm you need to do cut/fill, treatment swales, bioretention cells, the list goes on... Personally it sounds great but I don't feel like paying taxes for it

06-11-2009, 04:08 PM	#10
krm Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 39 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	crossing agreement you absolutely need a crossing agreement in place with NH DOT or you are trespassing in the summer. Trust me on this.

06-11-2009, 04:00 PM	#9
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	So the bike path will be on the lake side of the tracks right? And the fence will be between the path and the tracks. Are you seriously saying that no one will swim from the bike path? No one will bike down the path, find a nice spot and dive in? That is one good reason to build the trail. I see dozens of people walking down the shoulders of the track today and swimming. BTW I never checked there leases or insurance. Woodsy says that the track is open to the public in the winter, is he lying? Or do all those winter people have to have leases and insurance. Personally I think that fence component of the bike path makes it ugly and very undesirable. But I love the idea of a hiking trail along the waterfront. Lets face facts, the tracks and the land that they are on belong to the state of NH. Eventually the tourist railroad will lose interest and their lease will expire, they can't be making that much money and tourism is a fickle industry. At that point, should the state give away 9 miles of prime water front? The land owners may have lost that land to eminent domain years ago but they were compensated, maybe they will pay to get it back or maybe it will become a 9 mile long park. On the crime front, it's hard for me to believe that crime will be a big issue. The track/trail is right out in the open.

06-12-2009, 08:45 AM	#13
DJS-Laconia Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 15 Thanks: 1 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	I agree with brk-int, But I think the crime would be worse than a bike path in a non vacation area. People on vacation come to visit and lets face it, If you do not have a vested interest or don't plan on visiting a again then why would they care. Trash will be a major issue. Debris from picnics, food wrappers and plastics would all end up in the water. I am also going back a little bit to an earlier post where someone had mentioned that this project could be classified as shovel ready and it could be all done by hand with shovels using the unemployed or those seeking jobs. Lets be a bit more realistic, Only about 3% of the unemployed or job seeking crowd would be able to keep up for more then 1/2 day of that kind of work. It is 2009, and people are lazy. Plus, why would people work on a project for a low wage to be then out of a job when it is complete. That just prolongs the issue. Why not use some of the stimulus money for job-retraining. That way someone in a career path with no job outlook could switch to a new career. I am sure that this exsists today but it should be funded more, especially in this economy. If you think the land owners were compensated for the state comming thru with a railroad you are crazy. It was taken and used to support the growing state and countries rail system. That was a much more noble cause than this project to make sure everyone gets a swim.

06-12-2009, 09:33 AM	#14
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,932 Thanks: 478 Thanked 694 Times in 389 Posts	I think you are grasping at straws with the crime angle. I live in a community with a rail trail, and there has been very little crime associated with the trail. I am on the trail at least once a week and there is no litter, just many people enjoying many different types of recreation. There were many predictions like you have made before the trail went in, none have come true, the trail is one of the few things the government has done right in Massachusetts. As far as everyone being lazy, well you're wrong there too. As far as digging it by hand, I missed that comment, it must have been a joke. Ah, just found the dig it by hand comment, it was Less, that guy is funny.

06-12-2009, 09:49 AM	#15
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	I'm not a big fan of a paved, fenced in trail either. But that doesn't means I agree with weak arguements against it. I too live near and frequent a rail trail. The trial starts at the Nashua/Hollis line and goes along the Nashua river into Mass. It's a nice trail and always clean. Many points are deep in the woods and secluded, crime could happen. There are sexual predators in the world. But come on you could make the same arguement about the Mount Major hiking trail. Less is a jokster, no one thinks shovel ready means work gangs of the unemployed. It means ready for the governement to give money to a contractor. Now is that a good use of goverment funds, well that's a different discussion. There are worse uses currently occuring.

06-12-2009, 10:40 AM	#16
Sman Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103 Thanks: 3 Thanked 27 Times in 8 Posts	I haven't read every detail of this post, but if you have ever been on a bike trail that is well planned out and provides access to more than just a view, they are real great. I biked more on a long weekend in Indiana last yr than I have in the yr since. The trail in Indiana was in great shape, we biked about 10 miles each way from the apartment to get a plate of muscles and a cold beer and there were shops etc, no need for a car. I think they make more of an effort out there because they can and they don't have all the other cool stuff, ocean, mtns etc. Other places I can think of that I have been, The Erie Canal in NY has one that goes for miles. Washington DC has them...etc. Locals and visitors use them.

06-19-2009, 10:26 AM	#19
fatnoah Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Has anyone actually biked Union Avenue? I grew up in Laconia (LA as I like to tell people) and used a bike as my main form of transportation all the way through high school. People can already walk and bike on Union Ave. It's not that exciting (or hasn't been to me at least since Goody-Good closed) and has so much traffic and so many intersections that it would be more an endurance test than a pleasurable ride/walk/whatever. A major part of the appeal of recreational paths is that they are NOT local roads. Rail-trails have the added benefit of being generally flat, no sharp curves, etc. that help to make the trails available to all ages and many modes of transportation. Underneath all of the over-the-top hyperbole, DJS does make valid points. The trail should be constructed in such a way so as to respect the rights of lake-front property owners. Look at the bright side, if the trail goes through and properties get trashed, then property values and taxes should go down...right?

09-11-2009, 08:53 PM	#20
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,778 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,022 Times in 744 Posts	....construction begins! The first leg of the first phase got started this week with tree removal running from the Laconia Public Library to Messer St. Am not too familiar with this area but believe it runs along a railroad track. Issues of contention: - Federal stimulus funding helps to power up the W.O.W. Trail construction. - The unwanted five foot chain link fence and insurance liability. A twelve foot wide by nine mile long asphalt bungle.....whoops....I mean paved trail...... through Belmont-Laconia-Weirs-Meredith. Will it really get built.......time will tell? __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake! Last edited by fatlazyless; 09-12-2009 at 09:10 AM.

11-23-2009, 09:51 PM	#21
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,778 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,022 Times in 744 Posts	Anyone see the front page article on this in today's, Monday Nov 23 Laconia Daily Sun. South Down Shore has been building up a lawyer's fund to fight the WOW Trail from crossing its waterfront area. And, apparently back in 1983 when South Down Shore was created, the State of NH created a railroad right of way easement for a bicycle trail. And after 25 years, it certainly seems like the WOW Trail will test the existance of the easment in order to build an asphalt paved bicycle trail. The LaDaSun reports from its' top page article that the SDS-condo board has been piling up special assessments from all its' residents into a 'war chest' to fund a legal offensive against the W,O.W. Trail so's to stop it from crossing their waterfront. It just seems to me that it could be a difficult and uphill battle for the SDS, but one never knows what will happen when the lawyers get involved. And, if you have the money to burn, then you can always find a lawyer or two or three who will be very pleased to go digging back through the legal history of the land use in a thorough and in-depth investigation. However, what with The W,O.W. being very strongly financed, litigated, and desired by all three of the federal, state, and local governments, the SDS better have lots of money to burn. Probably, the SDS would be better off hiring engineers, as opposed to lawyers, who could design them a tunnel that would place the W.O.W Trail into the underground where it would be out of their SDS sight. Heaven forbid the South Down Shore residents should be subjected to having to watch as other Laconians and lakes region visiters go pedal a bicycle along the shoreline of beautifull Paugus Bay, enroute to Weirs Beach and Meredith. That's the solution, SDS should go dig themselves a tunnel!...... __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake! Last edited by fatlazyless; 11-24-2009 at 08:57 AM.

11-24-2009, 10:04 AM	#22
birchhaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 132 Thanks: 14 Thanked 54 Times in 30 Posts	on to something You may be on to something. Fighting the state is going to cost a lot of money and SDS will probably lose in the end. Why not try and work with the state SDS could spend the money on a nice fence, like a nice new england field stone wall about 3' high and 2' wide and then place a nice rod iron fence on top of it about 2' high so it does not block the view and it looks nice and very NH. (disclaimer, I have mixed feelings about the trail, I think it would be nice, but it will ultimately cost way to much)

11-24-2009, 12:35 PM	#24
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,966 Thanks: 80 Thanked 980 Times in 440 Posts	I think the SDS folks have a serious uphill battle to block or reroute the WOW trail.... for a few of reasons. 1. If the city easement for recreational path is in fact shown on the plot plan on file and mentioned in the planning and zoning board meeting minutes etc, there will be little SDS can do to invalidate that easement... especially if that easement was part & parcel to getting the project approved! In fact if the easement is found to be valid it may very well HURT the SDS claims. The RR corridor is approx 66'... the city owned recreational path easement may add to that width.... property that SDS currently claims ownership. 2. The WOW trail as currently configured sits within the 66' wide state owned railroad corridor. It does not impinge on SDS property at all. Unfortunately for SDS this is an active rail corridor, so the state has never reliquished any rights to the RR corridor. This will prevent SDS claiming any "squatter" type rights and try to block the trail that way... 3. The use of the rail corridor in the wintertime by snowmobiles & cross country skiers already sets a precedent for public use/crossing in front of SDS. 4. Lets not forget the state can refuse to renew the lease on the SDS waterfront if they really wanted to play hardball! Judging from whats been published in the papers, it seems SDS best chance of blocking the path for the trail is to complain about POSSIBLE loss of property values, POSSIBLE crime, POSSIBLE trash and POSSIBLE upkeep?? Not really the best legal grounds.... Given the unlikely chance of successfully blocking the WOW trail from crossing in front of SDS and the exorbitant cost to mount such an opposition, I would negotiate to minimize the visual & economic impact on SDS... and instead market the WOW trail as a positive thing for member of the SDS community. Woodsy PS: While I am a fan of the WOW trail, I am not a fan of the stoopid rail fence either! I am pretty sure though that fence requirement was dropped when the legislature passed a bill indemnifying the railroads..... __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

01-18-2010, 07:28 PM	#26
LongBay Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 151 Thanks: 48 Thanked 61 Times in 35 Posts	No more wow NO MORE WOW! I don't see anything WOW about taking a very prestine waterfront area and doing this.. AND THIS to it. [IMG]ftp://www.laconiadailysun.com/Laconiapdf/2010/1/16L.pdf[/IMG] These folks have no respect for the watershed providing drinking water for the city of Laconia. By bulldozing their way through the Winipesaukee watershed and wetlands they will turn the other side of Paugus Bay into yet another eye sore. We have enough eye sores in Laconia! They should focus their efforts on making the city look like a nice New England town. Look how Meredith transformed itself. Loconia can do the same with better leadership and vision. They are nothing but liars! They said there would not be any chain linked fences. Well, by the looks of the pictures taken and posted in the Laconia Sun on January 16th., not only do we have chain linked fences but lots of ugly cement retaining walls! Anyone in the spray paint business may want to consider opening up a store in one of those vacated storefronts in downtown Laconia. There will be plenty of walls for those folks with not enough time on their hands to put their creativity to work. "All in all it was just a brick in the wall. All in all it was all just bricks in the wall." Pink Floyd, The Wall Last edited by LongBay; 01-18-2010 at 07:58 PM.