Where to report seaplanes breaking the law?

Airwaves · 06-21-2009, 07:42 PM

I have the same list that the NH Dept of Safety puts out and it also lists Pickerel Pond Laconia as Boat/Motor Restriction - Seaplanes prohibited.

Unlike the other lakes and ponds on the list it does not quote an RSA or
SAF-C number that would certainly make it easier to look up the effective date.

The list from the NH Department of Safety, Bureau of Marine Patrol that I printed out is dated May 15, 2007 so it would be unlikely that Bossey's was actually operational last August (2008) as NoBozo found on the web.

I would guess that Bossey moved on and didn't tell anyone at the FAA but his neighbors petitioned the NH Dept of Safety, Bureau of Marine Patrol and made his return illegal!

As to which agency to report the violation of the law? You could try the Marine Patrol but I doubt that they would send up their airwing to chase him down, or you could try the FAA but if I read the post by NoBozo correctly, according to the FAA there was no violation of the law.

Shedwannabe · 06-21-2009, 09:33 PM

I got a call back from the Bureau of Marine Patrol in response to my email. The spokesperson (What do you call him?) emphatically pointed out that NH law overrides FAA regulations and didn't know how anyone had got the idea it didn't. (I had described a little of the discussion and questions people had raised on this thread).

He referenced RSA 270:12 (see http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...270/270-12.htm) especially the 2nd paragraph. He said he didn't have in front of him when the restriction on Pickerel Pond was passed (I got a call from the state on a Saturday!!!!) but that I could call Monday to have someone look up when the restriction on Pickerel Pond was approved.

So, pending clarification of when the regulation went into effect, I would suggest this does settle the question of whether seaplanes are prohibited on Pickerel Pond.

BroadHopper · 06-21-2009, 10:53 PM

Lake Amphibians by their nature is technically a plane when airborne. Once they are in the water their are consider a water vessel. That is why amphibs have both FAA call letters and CG bow numbers on the front. Once the amphib lands it must obey all boating rules including life vest, paddle and other safety devices requires by law. This has always been a touchy subject with MP jurisdiction. In the case for Pickeral Pond, if an amphib lands, it is a boat and MP may or may not consider it a sea plane because it is not by law. That is why the speed limit rule in Winnipesaukee will be tested in this matter. During the 'stepping' out of the water to airspace and vice versa, it is a gray area in which both FAA and MP will argue that it is one or the other. I would love to see how this 'play' if it ever enters court.

Skip · 06-22-2009, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

...This has always been a touchy subject with MP jurisdiction. In the case for Pickeral Pond, if an amphib lands, it is a boat and MP may or may not consider it a sea plane because it is not by law. That is why the speed limit rule in Winnipesaukee will be tested in this matter. During the 'stepping' out of the water to airspace and vice versa, it is a gray area in which both FAA and MP will argue that it is one or the other. I would love to see how this 'play' if it ever enters court.

It will never end up in Court because there is no "gray area" here. While we have covered this before, seaplanes are specifically exempt from boating regulations while using water to take off or land. Therefore they are specifically exempt from the speed limit regulations while taking off and landing:

270:13-a Operation of Seaplanes or Helicopters on Public Waters. –
I. Any seaplane or any helicopter on floats which lands on public waters shall be exempt from all laws and rules concerning the operation of boats for the purpose of landing and taking off from such public waters.

422:27 Seaplanes in Operation on Public Waters. –
I. All seaplanes shall be considered boats while in operation on the waters of the state and shall be subject to the marine rules of navigation, except that they shall be exempt from all laws and rules concerning the operation of boats for the purpose of landing and taking off from such public waters.
II. The operation of seaplanes shall be subject to any restrictions placed upon the use of public waters by rules adopted by the department of safety or the department of environmental services.

To hopefully answer some other questions posed here.

A violation of the seaplane regulation enacted by the State, or any violation enacted by a local jurisdiction is enforceable by any law enforcement officer of the State of New Hampshire. This is defined in regulations contained in RSA 442 and includes all local, county, state, NHMP or Fish & Game officers. Civil or administrative actions are handled by the appropriate civilian personnel within the DOT itself:

422:5 Enforcement of Laws. –
I. The provisions of this chapter providing for civil or administrative sanction shall be enforced by the director and department employees, in accordance with procedures adopted pursuant to RSA 541-A.
II. The provisions of this chapter providing for criminal sanction shall be enforced by any police and law enforcement officer, including, but not limited to, members of the state police, sheriffs, deputy sheriffs, policemen, and constables and all persons empowered to make arrests in criminal cases.

Finally, there are three separate State agencies that have the power to restrict seaplanes from bodies of water in the State of New Hampshire. The main agancy, mentioned above, is the Department of Transportation. That particular commissioner is tasked with overseeing all aeronautical activity in the State and is the individual with the most power in granting or removing air rights from any landing area in the State. Another State agency that has the power to limit or revoke seaplane activity from lakes, rivers & ponds is the Department of Environmental Services. They can invoke restrictions, and have in the past, to prevent degradation of water quality. And finally, by statute, the Commissioner of Safety can impose restrictions as previously discussed here.

NoBozo · 06-22-2009, 07:07 PM

So I guess the State of NH needs to get on the stick and TELL the FAA to remove 16NH from the New York Sectional.

BTW: As a Private Pilot I enjoy landing at "Short"/"Narrow" runway airports..just as a personal challenge. Part of ongoing flightraining and gaining experience.

An Observation on my part: If Shedwannabe would go flying....A Scenic Flight OR ...tell them you may be interested in learning how to fly and would like to take the controls.................YOU can do that...just tell the pilot you go up with, that you would like to Try It. You might like it. My guess is they in all likelyhood WILL oblige.

Skip · 06-22-2009, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoBozo

...So I guess the State of NH needs to get on the stick and TELL the FAA to remove 16NH from the New York Sectional....

Actually, as a responsible pilot and now fully aware of the situation, wouldn't it be more appropriate for you to follow the directions I have copied from the pertinent FAA website? I am sure your fellow pilots would appreciate your effort.

From the FAA NACO website:

How can I report chart discrepancies?
You are encouraged to bring charting errors to our attention. On every NACO Aeronautical product, we have a note that describes how to report charting errors. You may contact us by mail, telephone, and e-mail:

Mailing Address:
FAA, National Aeronautical Charting Office
ATO-W, SSMC4 Station 2335
1305 East West Highway
Silver Spring, MD 20910-3281

Telephone.......(800) 626-3677 toll free, U.S. only
E-mail............... 9-AMC-Aerochart@faa.gov

Let us know how you make out, seems the process couldn't be simpler...

Kamper · 06-26-2009, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

... That is why amphibs have both FAA call letters and CG bow numbers on the front. ...

I never noticed a "bow number" on a plane before. I'll have to look closer next time I'm near an amphib/seaplane/float-plane.

BroadHopper · 06-26-2009, 11:19 AM

Planes with floats are not technically a boat when in the water. Amphibous vehicles are. That is why the amphi-car has bow numbers. Ever been on the Duck Tours in Boston? They have bow numbers.

06-21-2009, 07:42 PM	#1
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	I wonder why? I have the same list that the NH Dept of Safety puts out and it also lists Pickerel Pond Laconia as Boat/Motor Restriction - Seaplanes prohibited. Unlike the other lakes and ponds on the list it does not quote an RSA or SAF-C number that would certainly make it easier to look up the effective date. The list from the NH Department of Safety, Bureau of Marine Patrol that I printed out is dated May 15, 2007 so it would be unlikely that Bossey's was actually operational last August (2008) as NoBozo found on the web. I would guess that Bossey moved on and didn't tell anyone at the FAA but his neighbors petitioned the NH Dept of Safety, Bureau of Marine Patrol and made his return illegal! As to which agency to report the violation of the law? You could try the Marine Patrol but I doubt that they would send up their airwing to chase him down, or you could try the FAA but if I read the post by NoBozo correctly, according to the FAA there was no violation of the law. Last edited by Airwaves; 06-21-2009 at 07:48 PM. Reason: Wondering what agency to use to report a conflicting law.

06-21-2009, 10:53 PM	#3
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,601 Thanks: 3,237 Thanked 1,113 Times in 799 Posts	Interesting. Lake Amphibians by their nature is technically a plane when airborne. Once they are in the water their are consider a water vessel. That is why amphibs have both FAA call letters and CG bow numbers on the front. Once the amphib lands it must obey all boating rules including life vest, paddle and other safety devices requires by law. This has always been a touchy subject with MP jurisdiction. In the case for Pickeral Pond, if an amphib lands, it is a boat and MP may or may not consider it a sea plane because it is not by law. That is why the speed limit rule in Winnipesaukee will be tested in this matter. During the 'stepping' out of the water to airspace and vice versa, it is a gray area in which both FAA and MP will argue that it is one or the other. I would love to see how this 'play' if it ever enters court. __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

06-26-2009, 11:19 AM	#8
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,601 Thanks: 3,237 Thanked 1,113 Times in 799 Posts	amphib vs. float planes. Planes with floats are not technically a boat when in the water. Amphibous vehicles are. That is why the amphi-car has bow numbers. Ever been on the Duck Tours in Boston? They have bow numbers. __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

06-21-2009, 09:33 PM	#2
Shedwannabe Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Laconia Posts: 133 Thanks: 3 Thanked 22 Times in 15 Posts	I got a call back from the Bureau of Marine Patrol in response to my email. The spokesperson (What do you call him?) emphatically pointed out that NH law overrides FAA regulations and didn't know how anyone had got the idea it didn't. (I had described a little of the discussion and questions people had raised on this thread). He referenced RSA 270:12 (see http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...270/270-12.htm) especially the 2nd paragraph. He said he didn't have in front of him when the restriction on Pickerel Pond was passed (I got a call from the state on a Saturday!!!!) but that I could call Monday to have someone look up when the restriction on Pickerel Pond was approved. So, pending clarification of when the regulation went into effect, I would suggest this does settle the question of whether seaplanes are prohibited on Pickerel Pond.

06-22-2009, 07:07 PM	#5
NoBozo Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Portsmouth. RI Posts: 2,231 Thanks: 400 Thanked 460 Times in 308 Posts	So I guess the State of NH needs to get on the stick and TELL the FAA to remove 16NH from the New York Sectional. BTW: As a Private Pilot I enjoy landing at "Short"/"Narrow" runway airports..just as a personal challenge. Part of ongoing flightraining and gaining experience. An Observation on my part: If Shedwannabe would go flying....A Scenic Flight OR ...tell them you may be interested in learning how to fly and would like to take the controls.................YOU can do that...just tell the pilot you go up with, that you would like to Try It. You might like it. My guess is they in all likelyhood WILL oblige.