Death by Taxes

[nightrider]

I just received my Wolfeboro tax bill and promptly soiled my pants. The town went through a re-evaluation process this year. I received a letter in August from Cross Country Apraisal Group saying the preliminary assessed value of my property was set at X. X represented an increase in value from my previous assessment of approximately 6%. Even though it seemed extremely odd that the property value increased by 6% in this down economy, I figured I would swallow the increase and not schedule an appointment with the town to discuss this increase. Well much to my surprise, I received my tax bill and it was based on an assessment that was NO WHERE NEAR the value quoted in the August letter. The actual assessed value was TWENTY PERCENT higher than the previous assessment. HOW THE HECK CAN THEY GET AWAY WITH THAT. They tell you 6% then actually raise it 20%....and the rate increased from $10.61 to $11.04 per thousand to boot! Is anyone else out there getting hosed like this???

[nightrider]

....and another thing. Cross Country Appraisal Group does not furnish a web site address so taxpayers are able to compare neighbors assessed value increases. As I recall, the last company that was hired by Wolfeboro, Vision Appraisal Technology, had an excellent Web site where comprehensive comparitive data was available. I'd hate to think the town is not being above board on tax issues.

[Lakegeezer]

Originally Posted by nightrider

....and another thing. Cross Country Appraisal Group does not furnish a web site address so taxpayers are able to compare neighbors assessed value increases. As I recall, the last company that was hired by Wolfeboro, Vision Appraisal Technology, had an excellent Web site where comprehensive comparitive data was available. I'd hate to think the town is not being above board on tax issues.

Yes, Vision Appraisal Tech has a great web site to view comparative data - but all that does is tell you how much you are getting screwed. The evaluation process Vision uses is not transparent and results in M'boro have been similar to what you are seeing in W'boro (rising values in a deflationary market).

[Lakesrider]

Yep. I think everyone needs to start leaving junk cars, old school buses, dumpsters and such in front of their houses, to lower their property values.

[fatlazyless]

Very sorry to hear about all your property tax woes over in Wolfeboro, but here's something you can feel good about, and will put a big smile on your face.

You no doubt have heard about the New Hampshire Advantage. Well, everyone who pays a big property tax is definately helping to pay for this advantage. With no NH state income, no sales, no capital gains taxes, and most importantly PLENTY of INCREASES in local town and school spending, the money has to come from somewhere, and guess what, it comes from you! So, you are helping everyone out by paying for the New Hampshire Advantage..........Live Free or Die.....in tax free New Hampshire!

Thankyou to all New Hampshire property tax payers, and especially a great big thankyou to myself! Now, it's time for a good strong adult beverage. ...

Actual home selling prices sure look like they are going DOWN, and at the same time your actual property tax bill is going UP! ......welcome to the lakes region!

Driving down Pleasant St in Meredith, which runs off of Route 25 close to the BarnZ Cinema, one quickly sees about eight different 'for sale' signs with about five signs on the waterfront side of the street. Reduced, Reduced, For Sale By Owner, For Rent, Newly Priced, Luxury Home For Sale, ....is what one see's....and occaisionally the old signs get swapped out for similar signs from a different real estate business....because the seller's agreement has expired and he decides to try a different broker.

Seller's do not want to lower their prices any more, and buyers do not want to pay such a high price especially in a declining market, so the homes just sit and remain unsold for one year, two years, and counting.......with prices going down...down....down!

As a general rule, any one house is worth as much as a bank will lend money on it.....the banks have the money.....so the banks have a very big say in determining the price that a buyer can pay for it......and the rules for lending money have definately changed from what they were before September 25, 2008 ....

[ApS]

Originally Posted by nightrider

I received my tax bill and it was based on an assessment that was NO WHERE NEAR the value quoted in the August letter. The actual assessed value was TWENTY PERCENT higher than the previous assessment. HOW THE HECK CAN THEY GET AWAY WITH THAT. Is anyone else out there getting hosed like this???

I haven't caught up with my mail as yet, but one McMansion and one Mega-McMansion received new occupants for the first time this season. Bracketed by these monsters (as I am now) I can see a big hike coming.

[secondcurve]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

I haven't caught up with my mail as yet, but one McMansion and one Mega-McMansion received new occupants for the first time this season. Bracketed by these monsters (as I am now) I can see a big hike coming.

Being a half glass full guy, I'd look at it another way your property value has likely escalated due to the improvements in your neighborhood. It is always best to have the least expensive property in any given neighborhood.

As far as rising property taxes, it is definitely a problem everywhere and particularly in NH as this is where the predominant amount of tax revenue comes from. Clearly revenue should come from a wider range of places, with an income tax being the most obvious. The problem is that it would be impossible to shift some tax revenue from homes to income, not increase overall taxes, and keep both Democrats and Republicans happy.

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by nightrider

... The actual assessed value was TWENTY PERCENT higher than the previous assessment. HOW THE HECK CAN THEY GET AWAY WITH THAT. They tell you 6% then actually raise it 20%.....

.. In RI they have to send the actual assement value before setting the tax rate and sending a bill. My assessed value went down this year and I checked others in my neighborhood and they all went down by the same percentage. I would think that the Boro of Wolves would have to send you the final value before sending a tax bill. .... jmho

[TiltonBB]

A large portion of the tax income that NH gets is from out of state residents. That income from real estate taxes, road tolls, gasoline taxes and liquor stores helps to enable NH to avoid other methods of taxation. The system is by design, not by accident.

If NH was to enact a sales or income tax the residents would have to pay much more of their own expenses.

Doesn't it work better for the full time residents to let the sumer residents, visitors and vacationers share the burden?

[Lakepilot]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

A large portion of the tax income that NH gets is from out of state residents. That income from real estate taxes, road tolls, gasoline taxes and liquor stores helps to enable NH to avoid other methods of taxation. The system is by design, not by accident.

If NH was to enact a sales or income tax the residents would have to pay much more of their own expenses.

Doesn't it work better for the full time residents to let the sumer residents, visitors and vacationers share the burden?

There's a problem with this. I agree the towns do this, but they accomplish this by over taxing waterfront property which they assume is owned by out of staters. Our tax assessment went up 17% this year. I expect that with the higher tax rate, our taxes will be at least 25% higher. We are retired and will be putting the house on the market if our bill is as expected. And by the way, we won't get anywhere near the assessed value.

Maine is looking good for retired people. They have other taxes that are high, but their real estate tax isn't crushing.

[Argie's Wife]

Each state has to fund their government, including schools, social service programs, etc.

Here's some interesting info about the tax burden by each state:

Tax Burden By State
If all other things are equal, a state with a lower burden is a more attractive place to retire than a state with a higher one. To get a true sense of which state is less expensive, you need to look at state and local tax burdens. Only then do the low tax states stand out.

It is estimated by the Tax Foundation that the nation as a whole will pay on average 9.7% of its income in state and local taxes in 2008, down from 9.9% in 2007 primarily because income grew faster than tax collections between 2007 and 2008. This is the latest report the Tax Foundation has issued.

New Jersey residents paid 11.8%, topping the charts. New Yorkers were close behind, paying 11.7%, and Connecticut was third at 11.1%. The top 10 were rounded out by Maryland (10.8%), Hawaii (10.6%), California (10.5%), Ohio (10.4%). Vermont (10.3%), Wisconsin (10.2%) and Rhode Island (10.2%).

Alaskans pay the least, 6.4 percent in 2008, but Nevada is close at 6.6 percent. In four states the residents pay between 7 and 8 percent of their income in state and local taxes: Wyoming (7.0%), Florida (7.4%), New Hampshire (7.6%) and South Dakota (7.9%). Four other states round out the bottom 10: Tennessee (8.3%), Texas (8.4%), Louisiana (8.4%) and Arizona (8.5%).

The whole article can be found here: http://retirementliving.com/RLtaxes.html

Do I believe our state and local goverment can do a better job managing money? Yes, I do.

However, if paying taxes is the price I have to pay to live in the greatest contry, and the best state, then I'll pay 'em.

Overall, I'd wager we have it pretty good in the Granite State.

[Sunbeam lodge]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

Each state has to fund their government, including schools, social service programs, etc.

Here's some interesting info about the tax burden by each state:

Tax Burden By State
If all other things are equal, a state with a lower burden is a more attractive place to retire than a state with a higher one. To get a true sense of which state is less expensive, you need to look at state and local tax burdens. Only then do the low tax states stand out.

It is estimated by the Tax Foundation that the nation as a whole will pay on average 9.7% of its income in state and local taxes in 2008, down from 9.9% in 2007 primarily because income grew faster than tax collections between 2007 and 2008. This is the latest report the Tax Foundation has issued.

New Jersey residents paid 11.8%, topping the charts. New Yorkers were close behind, paying 11.7%, and Connecticut was third at 11.1%. The top 10 were rounded out by Maryland (10.8%), Hawaii (10.6%), California (10.5%), Ohio (10.4%). Vermont (10.3%), Wisconsin (10.2%) and Rhode Island (10.2%).

Alaskans pay the least, 6.4 percent in 2008, but Nevada is close at 6.6 percent. In four states the residents pay between 7 and 8 percent of their income in state and local taxes: Wyoming (7.0%), Florida (7.4%), New Hampshire (7.6%) and South Dakota (7.9%). Four other states round out the bottom 10: Tennessee (8.3%), Texas (8.4%), Louisiana (8.4%) and Arizona (8.5%).

The whole article can be found here: http://retirementliving.com/RLtaxes.html

Is that Gross income before Federal taxes or Net income after Fed taxes. There is a big difference! And if you are working in NH and don't pay state employment taxes, only real estate taxes, you are far better off than a retired person. By not paying employment taxes the cost of running the government fall's heavier on retired people with real estate.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

One reason that lake front homes are assessed at a very high value is probably very apparent to anyone who has ever tried to buy one.

[gf2020]

Originally Posted by nightrider

....and another thing. Cross Country Appraisal Group does not furnish a web site address so taxpayers are able to compare neighbors assessed value increases. As I recall, the last company that was hired by Wolfeboro, Vision Appraisal Technology, had an excellent Web site where comprehensive comparitive data was available. I'd hate to think the town is not being above board on tax issues.

Wolfeboro parcel data is availabe on line here:

http://www.sustainablemapsolutions.c...Password=guest

Is this the old tax data or the current assessments?

[gf2020]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

As a general rule, any one house is worth as much as a bank will lend money on it.....the banks have the money.....so the banks have a very big say in determining the price that a buyer can pay for it......and the rules for lending money have definately changed from what they were before September 25, 2008 ...

The day JPMorgan Chase acquired Washington Mutual?

As has been discussed here previously, the majority of $1 million+ homes in the Lakes Region are purchased without mortgages. This is bonus money or inheritance money people are spending.

Mortgage interest rates and tightened lending requirements play less of a role in affecting prices in the vacation home market than your are implying.

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by Sunbeam lodge

Is that Gross income before Federal taxes or Net income after Fed taxes. There is a big difference! And if you are working in NH and don't pay state employment taxes, only real estate taxes, you are far better off than a retired person. By not paying employment taxes the cost of running the government fall's heavier on retired people with real estate.

I assume your first statement is actually a question - correct? (Don't get me wrong; I'm hardly the punctuation police here, but just to explain my answer...)

The article goes into Federal Taxes first, so I guess the answer is "based on gross income, not net." But please read it for yourself. It's a long article, in all but takes into consideration some taxes, like on cigarettes, beer, inheritance, etc. that we haven't discussed here.

In other words... Yes, we may pay more than many states in property tax but whereas we have no state income tax, no sales tax, very low "sin" taxes, etc., it pans out that NH is actually one of the lower-taxed states.

[fatlazyless]

This letter from a Gilford woman was in the Laconia Daily News about a month ago and I though it was pretty interesting so I scissored it out and saved it.
........
Town needs to lower spending before its tax base will return

To the editor,
Gilford: Lower the tax rate!

Hello Gilford citizens and tax payers. In the last few months I have taken a keen interest in the taxes here in our fair town. I have reviewed the assessors data base and looked at the 2010 sales date. The picture is not pretty. Gilford's tax base is made up of a large number of non-resident tax payers, aproximately 48-percent. These people cannot vote on budget issues which they must pay for. I am pretty sure we fought a war over this issue. It was the Revolutionary War and the issue was taxation without representation.

In addition what I have found is that the waterfront tax payers really carry the tax burden for the town since those properties are valued higher. Gilford's second home residents see the tax bill rising and the value of their property sinking and they feel helpless. They can't vote or even sign warrant article petitions. If the tax rate does not come under control, these second home owners will sell low and move on. Some of the inland property owners will walk away from their homes leaving Gilford a ghost town of unoccupied residences. It is already happening. Foreclosures in Gilford sky rocketed in 2009 and continue into 2010. These properties come back onto the market and sell very low, so the tax base erodes. Even on Governor's island , the 2010 waterfront sales are 15.3-percent below assessed value! Realtors say Gilford is a hard sell on the waterfront due to high taxes. As the tax rate continues to climb the sales prices drop. On Governor's Island there are four properties LISTED below assessed value. The downward spiral has begun.

The selectmen have proposed a level budget with cuts to capital and maintenance funds. However I will note that there are minimal cuts to the employees, their salaries or their benefits. It appears that no one wants to do the dirty work.

The school board is by far the monster that drives the tax rate here in town. I duly noted that the elementary and middle school principals received total compensation packages that were nearly $200,000 last year. The response from the school sysytem was; retirement incentive and vacation time in addition to insurance benefits and taxes. How nice. The public sector needs to do a reality check. The school board, selectmen and budget committee need to roll up their sleeves and put the citizen/taxpayer on the top of the food chain and the public employee somewhere down below.

In the private sector, when revenue is down, we cut our expenses. Closing your eyes and hoping things will get better next year is not the solution. Do the math people! You have years worth of inventory on the market here in Gilford and a large percentage are selling below assessed value. It will take years for your tax base to return if you continue on this path. Let's see if our elected officials got the message. Lower the tax rate by signifigantly cutting the budget, then and only then, will your tax base return.

Barbara Aichinger
Gilford

[Heaven]

The real estate market is bloated, the assessed values on the mansions are bloated, the value of real estate no longer reflects earning power. Why should we falsely "prop" up the real estate market?

[John A. Birdsall]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

This letter from a Gilford woman was in the Laconia Daily News about a month ago and I though it was pretty interesting so I scissored it out and saved it.
........
Town needs to lower spending before its tax base will return

To the editor,
Gilford: Lower the tax rate!

Hello Gilford citizens and tax payers. In the last few months I have taken a keen interest in the taxes here in our fair town. I have reviewed the assessors data base and looked at the 2010 sales date. The picture is not pretty. Gilford's tax base is made up of a large number of non-resident tax payers, aproximately 48-percent. These people cannot vote on budget issues which they must pay for. I am pretty sure we fought a war over this issue. It was the Revolutionary War and the issue was taxation without representation.

In addition what I have found is that the waterfront tax payers really carry the tax burden for the town since those properties are valued higher. Gilford's second home residents see the tax bill rising and the value of their property sinking and they feel helpless. They can't vote or even sign warrant article petitions. If the tax rate does not come under control, these second home owners will sell low and move on. Some of the inland property owners will walk away from their homes leaving Gilford a ghost town of unoccupied residences. It is already happening. Foreclosures in Gilford sky rocketed in 2009 and continue into 2010. These properties come back onto the market and sell very low, so the tax base erodes. Even on Governor's island , the 2010 waterfront sales are 15.3-percent below assessed value! Realtors say Gilford is a hard sell on the waterfront due to high taxes. As the tax rate continues to climb the sales prices drop. On Governor's Island there are four properties LISTED below assessed value. The downward spiral has begun.

The selectmen have proposed a level budget with cuts to capital and maintenance funds. However I will note that there are minimal cuts to the employees, their salaries or their benefits. It appears that no one wants to do the dirty work.

The school board is by far the monster that drives the tax rate here in town. I duly noted that the elementary and middle school principals received total compensation packages that were nearly $200,000 last year. The response from the school sysytem was; retirement incentive and vacation time in addition to insurance benefits and taxes. How nice. The public sector needs to do a reality check. The school board, selectmen and budget committee need to roll up their sleeves and put the citizen/taxpayer on the top of the food chain and the public employee somewhere down below.

In the private sector, when revenue is down, we cut our expenses. Closing your eyes and hoping things will get better next year is not the solution. Do the math people! You have years worth of inventory on the market here in Gilford and a large percentage are selling below assessed value. It will take years for your tax base to return if you continue on this path. Let's see if our elected officials got the message. Lower the tax rate by signifigantly cutting the budget, then and only then, will your tax base return.

Barbara Aichinger
Gilford

************************************************** *************
While it true that the lakefront property could be sold, the fact is the town residents don't care as far as taxes goes. what is the difference between my money and the next persons money. and what are the chances that the next owner will improve the property, increase its value and thus increase the taxes. Meanwhile the out of staters have no say, and it is not fair. I do not think that we should be able to vote on the leaders of our community where our summer homes are, but we should have a say in the towns budget.

[secondcurve]

Originally Posted by Heaven

The real estate market is bloated, the assessed values on the mansions are bloated, the value of real estate no longer reflects earning power. Why should we falsely "prop" up the real estate market?

Let's assume that present real estate market assessments are overvalued by 15%. If they were uniformly corrected, property taxes would increase by 15%. I'm not sure the average person understands this fact.

[Argie's Wife]

I'm not sure what the policy is in Gilford or Wolfeboro or elsewhere, but I know that when there's a dispute over the assessment of a property, the owner can make an appointment with the town's assessor or assessor department to discuss the issue.

Nightrider, have you contact the town assessor to see if there's any policy like I mentioned or if there's a chance to dispute the assessment?

[Skip]

Since our good friend FLL is always the first in line to complain about the fairness of the property tax, particularly when it comes to the parcel he resides at, methinks he should attempt to invoke the following clause:


TITLE V
TAXATION
CHAPTER 75
APPRAISAL OF TAXABLE PROPERTY
Section 75:6
75:6 Deductions in Case of Insane Persons. – The selectmen shall make such deductions from the appraised value of the property of insane persons as they shall think just and reasonable, whenever it shall appear that the income of their estates is not sufficient to support them.
Source. RS 42:4. CS 44:5. GS 52:5. GL 56:5. PS 58:5. PL 63:5. RL 76:6.


I would be more than happy to vouch for him.....

[nj2nh]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

One reason that lake front homes are assessed at a very high value is probably very apparent to anyone who has ever tried to buy one.

We summer folks (who long to be year-rounders) don't just pay the assessed value, we also pay a view tax. Yup. My view which is the same as the view of the people all around my house is taxed several times over.

Honestly, you year-rounders are lucky. Not only do you live in NH, but your taxes would be way higher if it weren't for people like me. You get to vote on school budgets, etc., which we partially fund, but get no benefit from and never will. I don't get to vote in NH.

I really think you all should keep your miseries to yourself up there. You have a great deal. Try living in Jersey where my modest little house costs me $13,000 annually plus my income taxes and my sales tax and my gas tax and the fee for my burglar alarm and the fees for all the home inspectors I have to have come in when I need a new water heater or a light installed.

Jersey would kill you.

I'm moving to NH. Lots easier up there and the view is ever so worth it.

nj2nh

[Lakepilot]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Let's assume that present real estate market assessments are overvalued by 15%. If they were uniformly corrected, property taxes would increase by 15%. I'm not sure the average person understands this fact.

In Wolfeboro waterfront is taxed at a higher percentage of fair market value then other property. A neighbor was told they had 34 sales of water front but they threw out all but 17. They said they threw out this one and that one because "it was a fire sale". They only selected comps that would inflate the value of the property.

[NoRegrets]

I'll second nj2nh's post! We cry about the real estate tax. This is the bait being offered to implement more taxes! I moved to NH years ago and have the chance to discuss property taxes with family and friends in Mass. They all pay much more than we do for equivalent properties plus they have the sales tax, income tax, pay for every town benefit (water, sewer, trash pickup, school sports, and the use of parks). The number of state government agencies grown and the only thing to do is validate the rationalle for this. Local governments compete with the state and federal governments for our dollar. Less agencies the better we would be. Not more taxes to be fair!

[DickR]

NH has long opposed any "broad based taxes," although somehow the state property tax escapes being called this. The argument heard is that an income or sales tax would just give the state reason to spend more and the total tax bill for each of us would go up.

Perhaps that would be the case, although I have to wonder about the reasoning. Somehow, with the present system of raising money to run the state, our elected representatives keep spending in control, but if they had another source of tax money they would become out of control.

To be sure, a lot of towns in vacation areas get a huge amount of money from out of staters or at least out of towners. Still, the idea of distributing a tax burden according to how much some other guy would pay you for your house seems absurd. Paying a tax on someone else's money - what a concept! It ranks right up there with our paying local real estate taxes to educate kids from some other town whose folks are quite well off.

[nightrider]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

I'm not sure what the policy is in Gilford or Wolfeboro or elsewhere, but I know that when there's a dispute over the assessment of a property, the owner can make an appointment with the town's assessor or assessor department to discuss the issue.

Nightrider, have you contact the town assessor to see if there's any policy like I mentioned or if there's a chance to dispute the assessment?

I have not yet done so. I'm trying to gather additional information on the most advantageous way to go about it. A recent post by Lakesrider states that the assessor apparently arbritrarily threw out a number of seemmingly valid comparison sales when a friend of his applied for an abatement. I wonder if there is a professional in Wolfeboro who specializes in this area. If anyone can offer a reference, I sure would appreciate it.

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by nightrider

I have not yet done so. I'm trying to gather additional information on the most advantageous way to go about it. A recent post by Lakesrider states that the assessor apparently arbritrarily threw out a number of seemmingly valid comparison sales when a friend of his applied for an abatement. I wonder if there is a professional in Wolfeboro who specializes in this area. If anyone can offer a reference, I sure would appreciate it.

If you're serious about disputing the bill - don't wait. I could be wrong, but I think you only have 30 or 60 days from the date the bills are sent out to dispute them and ask for a re-assessment.

Here's some information from the NH Department of Revenue on how to do it:

http://www.nh.gov/revenue/faq/dra_1200.htm

And if I may recommend something to you on your approach... I perceive you're not happy about the bill and I don't blame you one bit. But please remember the people working for the town are just doing their jobs. They don't make extra income by charging you more on your tax bill and I'd wager they don't like confrontations either. You'll get further in a situation like this if you're polite and patient; remember, the people working for the town are human, too. I've noticed that once people either work for a municipality or get elected to a position, the public sometimes forgets these things... niceties can go a long way.

[Slickcraft]

Nightrider, once the final tax bills are out, the only way to get an adjustment is to formally request an abatement prior to next March 1st. This from the Alton web site but the same rules apply in all NH towns:

The Assessment Office handles applications for Tax Abatements. Abatement applications must be made to the Assessment Office in writing by March 1, after final notice of tax. The application then proceeds through local review and decision by the Board of Selectmen/women, with appeal rights to the Board of Tax and Land Appeals or to the Superior Court (on or before September 1, after final notice of tax)

.

You should still take AW's advice and make an appointment with the assessing office to hear an explanation of how your property valuation was arrived at. If there is a clear error, the assessor may support your abatement request. In any case you should start by hearing their explanation and taking away whatever data you can.

[garysanfran]

can be an iffy propostion if you're on The Lake.

During the past 50 years, I have seen many families sell their homes on-the-lake because they couldn't afford the property taxes and most had no right to vote on local tax issues.

The Towns love this because more wealthy people move-in, more spending results and higher taxes result from that! No matter what your wealth level, the future will bring-in the more wealthy after you retire.

Retiring on today's present values, may not compete with future values needed.

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

can be an iffy propostion if you're on The Lake.

During the past 50 years, I have seen many families sell their homes on-the-lake because they couldn't afford the property taxes and most had no right to vote on local tax issues.

The Towns love this because more wealthy people move-in, more spending results and higher taxes result from that! No matter what your wealth level, the future will bring-in the more wealthy after you retire.

Retiring on today's present values, may not compete with future values needed.

I beg to differ with you about "the towns love this because the more wealthy people move-in, more spending results and higher taxes result from that!"

Your post gives way too much credit and power to the town's officials - you forget that it's the voters in the voting booth or at the town meeting who decide whether a warrant article passes or not.

Revenue raised by taxes cannot be expended without voter approval. PERIOD.

Remember, the people serving on your town's budget committee, board of selectmen, and school boards are residents. Many, if not all, are property owners. There's not a special rate for non-voting tax payers and a special rate for resident tax payers. There's one property tax amount set by the town, and it's generally set in the fall of the year for the upcoming year.

When your taxes go up; so do mine.

When there's tax increases it's not always because the town or school's budgets are up; it can often be because of the state taxes or county tax. For the past few years many towns and schools have level funded their budgets and the only increases recognized were contractual increases - due to equipment leases, employment contracts, etc. Gone are the days when you see an 8% or 18% increase; a 2% to 4% increase is the "norm" now. For our school, our default budget (the budget we'd have if our proposed budget fails) is MORE than our proposed budget for the third year in a row.

Many towns base their assessments on the value (sales value) of the property. If property values go down, assessments go down, and tax rates go up so that funding continues. If property values go up, assessments will increase, and tax rates will decline, as we saw during the "housing bubble". The lake property values have increased over the years because Lake W. is a very desirable place to live - as we know. Because the sales value has increased, so has the assessed value - they go hand-in-hand, I'm afraid.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

I beg to differ with you ......Your post gives way too much credit and power to the town's officials - you forget that it's the voters in the voting booth or at the town meeting who decide whether a warrant article passes or not.

Revenue raised by taxes cannot be expended without voter approval. PERIOD.

In the last ten years, Wolfeboro, Alton and Gilford all have approved the SB-2 style of voting on warrants, as well as for candidates. Laconia is a city and had a tax cap until last week. Don't know about Tuftonboro?

Meredith, Moultonborough, and Center Harbor all continue to have the old fashioned style, show-of-hands, town meeting.

In Meredith, the actual voting on warrants gets done at about 11-pm on the first tuesday in March so only people who are really interested show up to vote. Most potential Meredith voters are no-shows at the town meeting.

Last March at the Meredith-Center Harbor-Sandwich- SAU#3-annual school meeting, the Town of Meredith got "hosed by the Town of Sandwich" according to former Selectman Bob Flanders. Basically, Meredith voters got hoist by its' own petard when Sandwich voters showed up in strength to successfully vote the continued teaching of Sandwich Elementary's 6th grade through the show-of-hands process.

The SAU#3 school board's response; was to change the annual school board meeting from a Wednesday evening to a Saturday morning in a close vote. This had been proposed in the past and failed, so why did it get passed this time? Because Meredith got hosed!

Meredith's scheduling their annual NH town meeting for a time period at 7-pm Tuesday, in March with an aproximate 11-pm show of hands vote, when THEY KNOW that most residents will not show up, is a process that gets results that is very similar to gerrymandering, and it works!

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

In the last ten years, Wolfeboro, Alton and Gilford all have approved the SB-2 style of voting on warrants, as well as for candidates. Laconia is a city and had a tax cap until last week. Don't know about Tuftonboro?

Meredith, Moultonborough, and Center Harbor all continue to have the old fashioned style, show-of-hands, town meeting.

In Meredith, the actual voting on warrants gets done at about 11-pm on the first tuesday in March so only people who are really interested show up to vote. Most potential Meredith voters are no-shows at the town meeting.

Last March at the Meredith-Center Harbor-Sandwich- SAU#3-annual school meeting, the Town of Meredith got "hosed by the Town of Sandwich" according to former Selectman Bob Flanders. Basically, Meredith voters got hoist by its' own petard when Sandwich voters showed up in strength to successfully vote the continued teaching of Sandwich Elementary's 6th grade through the show-of-hands process.

The SAU#3 school board's response; was to change the annual school board meeting from a Wednesday evening to a Saturday morning in a close vote. This had been proposed in the past and failed, so why did it get passed this time? Because Meredith got hosed!

Meredith's scheduling their annual NH town meeting for a time period at 7-pm Tuesday, in March with an aproximate 11-pm show of hands vote, when THEY KNOW that most residents will not show up, is a process that gets results that is very similar to gerrymandering, and it works!

...didn't you start a thread about this issue already?

By the way, there's always a public input session of any public meeting - you should air your concerns to the board having the town meeting at the odd date/time you've been posting about here - they're more likely to address your concerns at their meeting than they are on this forum...

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

In the last ten years, Wolfeboro, Alton and Gilford all have approved the SB-2 style of voting on warrants, as well as for candidates. Laconia is a city and had a tax cap until last week. Don't know about Tuftonboro?

Meredith, Moultonborough, and Center Harbor all continue to have the old fashioned style, show-of-hands, town meeting.

In Meredith, the actual voting on warrants gets done at about 11-pm on the first tuesday in March so only people who are really interested show up to vote. Most potential Meredith voters are no-shows at the town meeting.

Last March at the Meredith-Center Harbor-Sandwich- SAU#3-annual school meeting, the Town of Meredith got "hosed by the Town of Sandwich" according to former Selectman Bob Flanders. Basically, Meredith voters got hoist by its' own petard when Sandwich voters showed up in strength to successfully vote the continued teaching of Sandwich Elementary's 6th grade through the show-of-hands process.

The SAU#3 school board's response; was to change the annual school board meeting from a Wednesday evening to a Saturday morning in a close vote. This had been proposed in the past and failed, so why did it get passed this time? Because Meredith got hosed!

Meredith's scheduling their annual NH town meeting for a time period at 7-pm Tuesday, in March with an aproximate 11-pm show of hands vote, when THEY KNOW that most residents will not show up, is a process that gets results that is very similar to gerrymandering, and it works!

I hate to say it, but I agree with FLL. Why have a vote at 11:00pm? Why not at 8:00pm? I believe like FLL said, most residents will not show up at 11:00pm for a vote and they DO know it. To think otherwise is foolish.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

.. you should air your concerns to the board having the town meeting at the odd date/time you've been posting about here

Look, there's no way I can explain personally the reason why each voter voted the way that they did in Gilford and Meredith when it came to voting yes or no for a new police station but I can look at the overall results which are what counts.

History:

In the last four years, Gilford, which is an SB-2 town, has voted NO, three different times to replace their old police station with a new one.

Meredith, which is a town meeting town, voted YES on the first vote, about eight years ago, to replace their old police station with a new one.

What made the difference between Gilford and Meredith? Just my opinion here, but I believe it was most likely all about the difference in the voting process: Gilford's SB-2 private paper ballot available to voters from 7am-7pm as opposed to Meredith's traditional NH tuesday night, town meeting and its' 11-pm show-of-hands style vote.

What made the difference between Gilford not building a new police station, and Meredith building its' taj mahal style police station was the voting process difference between SB-2 and town meeting. ...

[Argie's Wife]

It doesn't have to happen at 11pm - you can move the question ANYTIME.

[Ropetow]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

It doesn't have to happen at 11pm - you can move the question ANYTIME.

Sounds like you are good friends with Roberts (and his Rules....)

[Argie's Wife]

Yes, I am.

[kunamola]

I know what this long time (1947) Tuftonboro summer family will do to try to pay the property tax this year. We will not replace our motorboat which died this summer; so Melvin Marina will not have a new sale, we will not store this boat so Lane's End will not have storage income, we will not need to buy gas for a boat so marina's around the lake will not benefit from our sales and the government will not benefit from the tax on this unsold gasoline. We will not be boating on the lake to eat out so restaurants will not get our business and we won't be buying new life jackets, ski vests or other boating accessories so local stores will not get a sale. Maybe, just maybe that will allow us to hold on to our family camp for another year.

[fatlazyless]

Do you have any Tuftonboro town employees that you know of, who maybe live near you somewhere? It well could be that while you will not be replacing your old boat for property tax reasons, the town employee will be doing some water-sports related business with the local Tuftonboro marina.


What would be a good name for a town employee's super-duper luxury liner boat? How about "On the Clock" ....or....."Tuftonboro Overtime" ....or..."On Town Business" ....hmmmm.....what's a good name ?

[gtagrip]

I was thinking about the 11:00pm vote Meridith likes to do. My wife and I have 2 boys 7 & 6 years old. How would both my wife and I be able to attend the 11:00pm vote?
And please don't suggest getting a babysitter, that would be ridiculous!

[RailroadJoe]

GETAGRIP Please read Argie's wife quote Move the question.

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by RailroadJoe

GETAGRIP Please read Argie's wife quote Move the question.

I did read it. And it's a great idea, but why is it not done and why does meredith continue to have a vote at 11:00pm.
From what FLL is saying, the 11:00pm vote is a common practice.

[RailroadJoe]

Because most people have never read Roberts Rules of Order. They would then understand what a moderator does.

[Heaven]

I'd like to know, are there any other places (in the country) where property owning non-residents are allowed to vote?

[tummyman]

Yes, I believe there are a few. People can vote on budget and local issues only. requires a separate checklist. But Google the question and see what you get. I did it a year or so ago and found a few.

[nightrider]

Originally Posted by kunamola

I know what this long time (1947) Tuftonboro summer family will do to try to pay the property tax this year. We will not replace our motorboat which died this summer; so Melvin Marina will not have a new sale, we will not store this boat so Lane's End will not have storage income, we will not need to buy gas for a boat so marina's around the lake will not benefit from our sales and the government will not benefit from the tax on this unsold gasoline. We will not be boating on the lake to eat out so restaurants will not get our business and we won't be buying new life jackets, ski vests or other boating accessories so local stores will not get a sale. Maybe, just maybe that will allow us to hold on to our family camp for another year.

Kunamola....You and I are in the same boat! I could not have explained it any better myself. Looks like the 24 year old boat will have to last yet another year.

[CGI3]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Look, there's no way I can explain personally the reason why each voter voted the way that they did in Gilford and Meredith when it came to voting yes or no for a new police station but I can look at the overall results which are what counts.

History:

In the last four years, Gilford, which is an SB-2 town, has voted NO, three different times to replace their old police station with a new one.

Meredith, which is a town meeting town, voted YES on the first vote, about eight years ago, to replace their old police station with a new one.

What made the difference between Gilford and Meredith? Just my opinion here, but I believe it was most likely all about the difference in the voting process: Gilford's SB-2 private paper ballot available to voters from 7am-7pm as opposed to Meredith's traditional NH tuesday night, town meeting and its' 11-pm show-of-hands style vote.

What made the difference between Gilford not building a new police station, and Meredith building its' taj mahal style police station was the voting process difference between SB-2 and town meeting. ...

What they SHOULD do is mail every Meredith resident a ballot a week prior, that way you avoid 3-5% of the people making all the major decisions for the whole town. These silly town hall meetings were fine 50-100 years ago, but times have absolutley changed. As for the new Meredith police station (the Taj) The only thing missing there is a bathroom attendent. It's a police station for crying out loud!

[Argie's Wife]

And not to belabor the point of taxes and how tough times are, but I make some tough decisions at times so I can keep my house, utilities on, and maybe afford cable.

Point: We're all facing tough times. And tax increases are hard to swallow right now; no matter if it's your summer home or your only home.

[fatlazyless]

"Despite the increase in the tax rate, many if not most taxpayers should not be paying more, City Manager Eileen Cabanel said, because the cumulative value of City property went down this year and the increase 'is the exact percentage that the tax rate went up.' " (Nov 23 - Laconia Citizen)

.........

I'm trying to think of something halfway intelligent to say here, and I give up?

.........

Here's some more information taken from today's November 23 - page 8 - LaDaSun:

Laconia total assessed value 2009 : $2,114,274,299

Laconia total assessed value 2010: $1,921,998,436

This is a decrease of 192,275,866 or 9.6%

Going from 18.04 to 19.78 is an increase of 1.74 or 9.1%

.............

So, if your property is worth 9.6% less than last year, and your tax bill remains about the same, then doesn't that mean that you just got an increase of about 9%?

Basically, and this is just my opinion, the property taxes will never go down, and the local spending will never go down. This is just the way it is.....just my two cents here.

Does anyone think that it can make a lot of money-sense to be a renter and not an owner?

[LIforrelaxin]

Funny, You always here the complaints but never the good side of the ever changing property tax fluctuation....

Personally owning a second home in Moultonborough I have watch things over the last several years, and have watched them to work in my favor... For the 3 or 4 year in a road my taxes have actually gone down... to where I believe they will settle out finally.... The tax rate has gone up some over the years... but after continuing rounds of re-evaluations the valuation of my property has finally come back to where it should be. 3 or 4 years ago I knew it was high... I waited a year and it fell.... and has continued to fall... Do I make a call to the appriasal company every year, and whine and fuss with the town NO I DONT....I have trusted and continued to trust that they will bring everything back into proper alignment.

People need to realize that what is going on around the lake is the ever changing landscape of how the government is funding itself. Some towns got moving quicker the others. Some towns have more serious funding problems then others. So yes thing are bound to get terribly out of wack... But you have to give the towns and state some time to settle these things out.

NH was and continues to be one of the worst states for financial responsibility when it comes to how it funds programs. We the land owners continue to pay the price for that, with high property tax rates.... if the voting public in NH would start forcing the state and town officials into more fiscally responsible roles people wouldn't continue to see the vastly swing pendulum of tax rates and property values that continue to plaque the region.

[gf2020]

I was reading an article on-line and saw that my former hometown of Westborough, MA just set their 2011 tax rate at a very NH-like $18.24 per thousand. I thought that was remarkable for a Greater Boston suburb. Just one more reason I no longer live there, I guess.

[fatlazyless]

Nov 30....Have yet to receive the latest semi-annual Meredith property tax bill from the town..... Town Manager Phil Warren reported that the total assessed valuation of the town (Meredith) dropped by $14,343,773 from $1,834,993,412 in 2009 to $1,820,649,639 in 2010. He said the assessment represents the results of the annual incremental revaluation and decline in values was spread across all classes of property and not limited to one sector."...A one percent drop...
..............

December 8......My Meredith property tax bill was my yesterday's December 7 Meredith mail for anyone reading this post from some remote location like Florida or somewhere. It is dated Nov 30, 2010, and the tax bill is due on December 30, 2010, with a 12% interest charged for late payments.

Am trying to determine what has happened with the rate/$1000 as that info is not on the tax bill.