Taking Water In Over Bow

[rgilfert]

A week ago last Sunday (9/16) my wife and I needed take our boat out and head NW in the Broads directly into some very heavy seas (Accuweather.com had the NNW wind pegged at 15 MPH with gusts to 22 MPH). Our boat is a 1998 FourWinns Horizon 200 Bowrider. I intentionally kept the boat at a low speed with the mindset: 1) the slower speed would keep the boat from planing & thus the bow would ride higher in the air 2) the wave slapping action would be less violent. The plan was working well except that after every 20+/- waves ... we'd encounter a couple of waves that were enormous and despite the fact that the bow was riding high, the boat would go over the crest of the first huge wave and then plow nose first into the side of the next one. On one occasion "green water" actually came over the bow and onto the bowrider front (fortunately I had left the bow canvas on and so minimal water actually got into the boat). Very scary! Fortunately shortly after this occurred we were able to turn south around the NE tip of Rattlesnake and head towards West Alton Marina and things immediately became a lot less hairy. I know that it's best to stay off the lake in weather like this...but when it is unavoidable my question is what is the best way to drive a boat (especially a bowrider) into the wind....slow (like I was doing) our perhaps faster? Should I not head directly into the waves...perhaps at a slight angle instead?

[Phantom]

For what it's worth, the answer ---as far as Winni is concerned is--- that it is an aquired skill -- not being funny and You must be VERY careful

There are established techniques for "High Seas" but the problem you encounter on Winni is quite different as there is a tremendous amount of "Cross Chop".

Personally, I too keep the Bow up, but tend to cut the larger waves at a slight angle (if possible) then recorrect direction. Whatever you do, don't get yourself completely broadside to a big one. If need be simply "tack" like a sailboat.

I have found in REALLY severe weather, closer to shore sometimes helps as well as utilizing the Lee side of any Island..... Parker, Rattlesnake, Diamond, Welch, etc

[tis]

You should also take big wave at an angle not straight on. I don't know if you know what I mean by that.

[Woodsy]

You didnt say from where you left or your ultimate destination. However, in a small boat like that, in rough water, your best bet is to head towards the Lee side of the nearest shoreline to mimimize your exposure to the wind and waves. The longer the wind runs across open water the bigger the waves will be. Islands block the wind and wave action quite a bit as does the shoreline especially on Winni with a NW wind. .

For example:

If you leave Alton bay with a destination of Meredith on a day with a strong NW wind as you described, the best course of action would be to run down the shoreline, and avoid the Broads completely.

If you are coming from Wolfeboro with a destination of Meredith, the best course would be to cut across the Broads to the East end of Rattlesnake then follow the shoreline. It will be rough cutting across, but once you get to Rattlesnake it should calm down some.

Sometimes the shortest route is not always the safest or most comfortable. Its not usually advisable to drive a small boat straight into the wind and waves... Quartering, and then heading to a lee shoreline is usually safer. That is taking the waves at an approximate 45 degree angle to your bow.

Check out this link.... http://www.docksidereports.com/rough...amanship_1.htm


Woodsy

[LIforrelaxin]

All great advice here so far.... But the bottom line is understanding your vessel, understand your comfort level and practice.

I have an 18' Four Winns and go out in the chop quite often... For me I find the sweet spot of speed, where I am just barely on plane.... For my boat it is right around 2750 rpm... When avoidable I don't take the waves head on, when I do I slow back down just a little, so that the boat come just off plane, this keeps the bow up, and out of trouble.

The experience comes in from being able to read the water, I know when extra large swells, are coming, and start dealing with them ahead of time. Making course and angle adjustments to accommodate.

Finally, as you did in rough weather keep the bow cover on... so that if you should take a bad wave, the water sheds off the boat, instead of coming into the bow.

Sometime the lee side of the island isn't available, and you just have to be patient and travel cautiously.

[Cobalt 25]

We were out on that same day. Leaving Wolfboro Harbor with Weirs Bay as our destination, we headed south of Barndoor and around past the Bahre Estate. That's where it got really interesting.

Hoping to benefit from the lee shore of Rattlesnake, we set our course. That leg was the most exciting. Most of our boating is in the ocean and although Winni chop is somewhat different than the Atlantic, I believe it is better, if your course setting allows, to hit the waves head on. Spray from the waves is less likely to soak the passengers.

I also believe, as mentioned previously, the best speed is just above plane with the bow high. For me , displacement speeds are much worse in terms of getting soaked. You need to get up out of the water, on plane.

Conditions didn't improve as much as I had hoped on the west side of Rattlesnake. When it is as windy as it was that day, there's relatively little calm water anywhere. It makes you appreciate the less windy days!

Peter

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by Cobalt 25

We were out on that same day. Leaving Wolfboro Harbor with Weirs Bay as our destination, we headed south of Barndoor and around past the Bahre Estate. That's where it got really interesting.

Hoping to benefit from the lee shore of Rattlesnake, we set our course. That leg was the most exciting. Most of our boating is in the ocean and although Winni chop is somewhat different than the Atlantic, I believe it is better, if your course setting allows, to hit the waves head on. Spray from the waves is less likely to soak the passengers.

I also believe, as mentioned previously, the best speed is just above plane with the bow high. For me , displacement speeds are much worse in terms of getting soaked. You need to get up out of the water, on plane.

Conditions didn't improve as much as I had hoped on the west side of Rattlesnake. When it is as windy as it was that day, there's relatively little calm water anywhere. It makes you appreciate the less windy days!

Peter

Another thought, if you have a top and windshield, putting them up always made for a much better and drier ride for me in those conditions. Rain-X on the windshield makes a huge difference as well.
But if you do not have a setup that allows you to stand up and drive it probably doesn't help much.

[Kamper]

It takes longer but some time I've crossed the lake riding parrallel to the waves and chop and running up or down, on the lee-ward side of the lake. This will not always be helpful but often the water does not have a chance to get worked up as much close to the upwind shore.

[Knomad]

Running safely in rough water water requires a balance between a number of adjustments:

• Slow down but remain on plane.
• Running with your bow up will give you a dryer ride but a rougher ride (Do not bring your bow up so high as to reduce your visability).
• Running with your bow down will give you a smoother but wetter ride.
• You will also have a more comfortable ride if you head into the waves at a slight angle.
• Be on the lookout for hazards and markers that can be obscured in rough water.

On the lake the conditions are rarely consistant so you will have to continually make adjustments with your speed and trim.

Make sure everyone on the boat is wearing their life jacket and they stay seated!

[jrc]

I've had similiar experience in the main section of the Broads. Usually in a strong north wind the waves build up between the southern tip of Rattlesnake, Clay point and Parker island. Try to avoid that area if possible.

My style most matches Colbalts, but every boat is different.

[Misty Blue]

Rgilfert:

What you experianced was what is know as a pitchpole. The stern lifts up on a wave and the bow plows down into the through.

The textbook way to deal with the heavy seas (and I have done it) is to hit the waves at an angle. Picture a sailboat tacking directly into the wind. Zig zagging to the upwind destination. In rough seas a small boat should zig zag (no, not the rolling papers!) into the waves.

What gives you control at the helm? You have a wheel and a throttle. They control a rudder and a propeller. When you take a large wave straight on the bow lifts and then drops down pivioting the hull like a sea-saw. When the bow drops and the stern lifts the rudder and screw lift out of the water and you lose control, hence the pitch pole. And in your boat the screw and rudder are your cobra drive, way aft.

By hiting the waves at an angle (say 45 deg.) the boat will roll up and over the top of the wave, the screw and rudder stay wet giving you control to run through the trough and up the next one.

Next year try it out on a "sort of" rough day and I think that you will develop a new skill.

Misty Blue

[tis]

Originally Posted by Misty Blue

Rgilfert:

What you experianced was what is know as a pitchpole. The stern lifts up on a wave and the bow plows down into the through.

The textbook way to deal with the heavy seas (and I have done it) is to hit the waves at an angle. Picture a sailboat tacking directly into the wind. Zig zagging to the upwind destination. In rough seas a small boat should zig zag (no, not the rolling papers!) into the waves.

What gives you control at the helm? You have a wheel and a throttle. They control a rudder and a propeller. When you take a large wave straight on the bow lifts and then drops down pivioting the hull like a sea-saw. When the bow drops and the stern lifts the rudder and screw lift out of the water and you lose control, hence the pitch pole. And in your boat the screw and rudder are your cobra drive, way aft.

By hiting the waves at an angle (say 45 deg.) the boat will roll up and over the top of the wave, the screw and rudder stay wet giving you control to run through the trough and up the next one.

Next year try it out on a "sort of" rough day and I think that you will develop a new skill.

Misty Blue

THanks for explaining it better. I wasn't quite sure how to make it understandable for him.

[jrc]

Other comments:

Someone suggested keeping near shore, this is a double edged sword. You may get some shelter near shore but depth can be an issue.

Waves don't just add to the depth, the trough of a wave is below the lake level. So in shallow areas you could hit bottom in the trough, even in an area that would deep enough when calm.

I was out Sunday morning on a kayak between Locke's and Varney Point, waves were a blast! Water is still pretty warm.

[Slickcraft]

Lots of good advice here on dealing with waves.

A comment on type of boat for an island resident. As you can't always count on good conditions existing when you need to get back to the mainland, a bowrider may not be the best choice for an island boat.

We have found that having a deep V hull boat with center door cuddy cabin and the ability to put full canvas up serves us well in a range of weather conditions. The cabin houses tools, PRDs, spare prop and so on. The center door allows for transport of ladders, lumber and such lying on the floor. The deep hull + cabin + windshield + canvas keeps us dry in wind rain and waves.

Not the most glamorous lake cruising design but the boat's primary job is getting people and lots of stuff to the island and back.

[Greene's Basin Girl]

We solved any problems that may occur in rough water. We purchased a tri-toon pontoon boat with a performance package. Boating through the broads is as easy as pie. Now going through the broads with our Seadoo is a different problem. We always go over the waves at an angle.

[Rattlesnake Gal]

This will certainly add time to your voyage, but might be much less rough: Head southward down the island with the waves and then cut across using Treasure and Sleeper Islands as shelter, making your way up to WAM.

[Baja Guy]

I agree with taking it at an angle, somewhere around 45 degrees to the waves. Plus, adjust your steering with each wave. In following seas you may need to run a gentler angle down the front of a wave before you hit the trough, and then turn a bit into the wave as you climb to the next peak. And as the previous poster said do whatever you can to keep your drive in the water since it is your control surface.
Also when stuff gets dicey don a PFD. (lifejacket) Put your cell phone in a plastic bag too.

[rgilfert]

Lots of good stuff here ...thank you! From reading everyone's posts it seems like my single biggest mistake was heading directly into the waves versus taking them at an angle. Actually, the thought of pursuing more of a "tacking" strategy crossed mind but at the time I wasn't sure whether it would help or hurt. Now, from your input, I know that it would have helped and I will definitely take the waves at more of an angle in the future. It makes complete sense!
I've been boating on Winnipesaukee most of my life. When I was a kid, I used to LOVE to go out into the Broads in rough weather and beat the H out of my Grandfather's boat. However when you're young you're invincible (at least you are in your own mind). Now that I'm an old goat I realize that bad things do, in fact, happen and thus I've become MUCH less of a dare devil! This feeling was amplified by the fact that I could see concern/fear in my wife's eyes (she's not a strong swimmer) and all of these things made for a bad boating experience!
A couple of other specific responses:
1) RG - When we left the island late in the morning last Sunday (9/23) it was once again very windy (although not quite as bad as the previous Sunday)...and we did exactly what you suggested. We headed south and went with the waves and then stayed in the shelter of the Rattlesnake peninsula as well as Treasure, Cub, and Sleeper Islands on our way to WAM. Going that direction was infinitely better!
2) Baja Guy - We absolutely agree with your PFD suggestion. In the wake of this experience we both agreed that we are going to buy a couple "quality" PFDs and actually start wearing them in the boat when it is really rough.
3) Slickcraft - Now I know that your comments regarding using a small bowrider as your sole "vehicle" when living on an island is not the best choice is true. Totally agree! Both my wife and I frequently talked this summer about what we type of boat we want as our next boat and we're in complete agreement with your comments/suggestions.
Once again....thanks to all for your input!

Rog

[tis]

Taking waves at an angle was something my father taught me when I first starting driving a boat-when I was about ten maybe even younger. Kid could drive in those days.

[pontoonbarge]

Lots of great advice ! I've been reading on this subject for years.... the angle into the waves idea has been very helpful. My old pontoonbarge is not meant for the rough water, but my V-hull takes it well. There is some great information in the Army Corps of Engineers Coastal Engineering Manual. (I found online a few years ago; at present it seems to need a password to get into it..)

It had a very interesting point -- the reason the waves are often bigger in the fall, is that the wind has a higher coefficient of friction when the air is colder than the water.

Anyway it give creedance to what we see out there and to the Edmund Fitzgerald song.

It also showed how the edge of the waves toward an island get slowed down, so that out from the lee end of an island the waves can "wrap around" from both sides, adding and cancelling depending on their phase. It can lead to some unusual wave sizes based on constructive/destructive interference.


My Boat Handling Under Power book says the worst boat for waves is a "flat bottomed ferry barge" (my pontoonbarge??) Interesting.

Be safe

Andrew

[GM doc]

Originally Posted by rgilfert

A week ago last Sunday (9/16) my wife and I needed take our boat out and head NW in the Broads directly into some very heavy seas (Accuweather.com had the NNW wind pegged at 15 MPH with gusts to 22 MPH). Our boat is a 1998 FourWinns Horizon 200 Bowrider. I intentionally kept the boat at a low speed with the mindset: 1) the slower speed would keep the boat from planing & thus the bow would ride higher in the air 2) the wave slapping action would be less violent. The plan was working well except that after every 20+/- waves ... we'd encounter a couple of waves that were enormous and despite the fact that the bow was riding high, the boat would go over the crest of the first huge wave and then plow nose first into the side of the next one. On one occasion "green water" actually came over the bow and onto the bowrider front (fortunately I had left the bow canvas on and so minimal water actually got into the boat). Very scary! Fortunately shortly after this occurred we were able to turn south around the NE tip of Rattlesnake and head towards West Alton Marina and things immediately became a lot less hairy. I know that it's best to stay off the lake in weather like this...but when it is unavoidable my question is what is the best way to drive a boat (especially a bowrider) into the wind....slow (like I was doing) our perhaps faster? Should I not head directly into the waves...perhaps at a slight angle instead?

I would run that boat as fast as allowed by law! suck it up and get er done. FP!

[Belmont Resident]

I've been out in 4 foot waves and had the same thing happening to me. I was able to adjust my tabs, trim & speed and make it work going straight into the waves.
But I also believe the length of the boat can add or subtract from the problem.
A smaller boat is going to have many more problems during these conditions then a bigger boat will, which is why many will recommend at 24+ foot boat when people ask for recommendations on boat sizes for Winni.
Green Basin Girls I'd question weather your referring to the same type of weather as mentioned. I was on a 28+ pontoon boat being ferried out to a job.
When I asked about how the boat takes the lake I was told a totally different story. Having not seen how a pontoon reacts on the broads in big waves I cannot comment. It does not make sense that a pontoon boat with or without canvas will outperform a v-hull in rough/windy conditions. With canvas up you will be protected but your gonna get blown around and have to deal with that as well as the waves. I owned a cruiser and it was amazing what putting the canvas up did to make the boat hard to manage on a windy day.

[upthesaukee]

this article on trim tabs touches on how to use trim tabs in a variety of situations, including rough weather.

http://www.ehow.com/how_5647543_use-trim-tabs.html

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Belmont Resident

A smaller boat is going to have many more problems during these conditions then a bigger boat will, which is why many will recommend at 24+ foot boat when people ask for recommendations on boat sizes for Winni.

Why is it people always assume longer is better.... I can say this, as I practice it... Handling the rough water is not just about length, it is about width, and hull configuration... I have never had a boat longer then 18'... one was an incredibly sharp V hull, that would slice through the wave, and made the rough water easy to deal with... My current boat has a wide beam, and is extremely stable because of it. and thus unless I am heading directly into or with a set of wave, is a very comfortable riding boat.

On the contrary, I have been in some narrow 22-24' boats that handle the waves awful, as the don't cut into the wave, nor do they have side to side stability......

---------------------------------------

That aside, Trim tabs, definitely help... and are a good investment when either buying a new boat, or looking to help a old boat out, that is being kept long term.....

---------------------------------------

last Pontoon, vs. TriToon.... Two different beasts... I would agree that Pontoons an a rough day aren't that great... A tri-toon on the other hand is a world of difference......

I have been on both... and was amazed at how much better the tritoon handled.

[Island Girl]

Waves are not all the same height.... And are variable in length. There is often a "path" between the high waves that can be followed. It looks like zig zagging through the water. You can often look ahead and plan the path through the lower waves. The color of the water is a little different as well... Look for the lighter color. A sailing instructor taught me this. It is kind of fun... And takes the mind off of being scared.

I have a 20 ft. Cuddy which handles the waves well.... Bow up as suggested. My rule of thumb is when Accuweather forecasts anything over 11 mph M
N, NW, WNW, W.... I plan to stay off the water. I will leave the island early, stay late, etc. to avoid being out there is high winds.

IG

I did have an 18' bowrider and the wave did come over the bow and into the boat. .... Learned the hard way.

[Greene's Basin Girl]

Originally Posted by Belmont Resident

I've been out in 4 foot waves and had the same thing happening to me. I was able to adjust my tabs, trim & speed and make it work going straight into the waves.
But I also believe the length of the boat can add or subtract from the problem.
A smaller boat is going to have many more problems during these conditions then a bigger boat will, which is why many will recommend at 24+ foot boat when people ask for recommendations on boat sizes for Winni.
Green Basin Girls I'd question weather your referring to the same type of weather as mentioned. I was on a 28+ pontoon boat being ferried out to a job.
When I asked about how the boat takes the lake I was told a totally different story. Having not seen how a pontoon reacts on the broads in big waves I cannot comment. It does not make sense that a pontoon boat with or without canvas will outperform a v-hull in rough/windy conditions. With canvas up you will be protected but your gonna get blown around and have to deal with that as well as the waves. I owned a cruiser and it was amazing what putting the canvas up did to make the boat hard to manage on a windy day.

Did the 28 foot pontoon boat have 2 or 3 pontoon's? The number of pontoon's can make an unbelievable difference when out in the broads on a rough day.

[ApS]

1) An outboard boat that my Dad and I built for Winnipesaukee, would be "all wrong" for The Big Lake; however, we never took water over the bow. In fact, we didn't mount a windshield to stop that possibility.

How did we manage for a decade with just a 14-foot outboard boat? Perhaps because Dad had been racing "Laconia Speedsters" on Lake Winnipesaukee since the 1930s—and the boat was a very lightweight boat that took chop very well. That boat never saw an outboard with more than 45-HP.

During those years, we never "wanted" for anything greater for the lake. Later, we moved to a 24' sailboat—one very much like the sailboats that regularly circumnavigate the globe.

2) A few years ago, I was never so impressed as after a dinner at the Wolfeboro Inn, I came upon a couple at a table who were Rattlesnake Island friends—one being a general-aviation pilot—and just four miles from their Rattlesnake Island cottage. Without being aware of any remarkable weather conditions out on the lake, we asked, "What brings you to town this evening"?

They said, "We're staying overnight at the Inn—there's too much chop for our 24' bowrider".

• Weather and waves are not a constant: if you're taking water over the bow, you probably shouldn't out there. Pilots call such trips "Get-there-itis"—which has taken many a pilot. As I see it, you're never going to beat Mother Nature. Decide before you go.