Masks and "the cult of selfishness"

[SailinAway]

Excellent editorial yesterday: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/27/o...gtype=Homepage

My position is simple: I don't want to make you sick in case I'm a carrier of COVID-19 with no symptoms. And I don't want you to make me sick in case you're a carrier. The most recent research says that transmission through the air is real---summarized here by an engineer who studies aerosol virus transmission: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/30/o...gtype=Homepage

Hence I gladly wear a mask for your protection, and in hopes that you will protect me in return.

[ishoot308]

This has been beaten to death!

Please give it a rest...

Dan

[fatlazyless]

" just like the smoke from a cigarette ........ avoid crowds ....... ventilation helps" ...... are three quotes from this NY Times July 30, air transmission, opinion article above, "Yes, the Coronavirus Is in the Air" and thanks very much for posting a link by www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linsey_Marr , an ironman (woman) triathlete.

Am seeing more folks wearing masks now for outside public use like walking on a public sidewalk. Am seeing almost no one inside a store without a mask.

If one mask is good, then two masks, one within the outer ....... is more effective ..... like a heavy cotton mask on top of a light thin mask.

Apparently, Bike Week is moving ahead and will be held in the last week of august. So, what's the name for those fully enclosed motorcycle helmets that cover entire head and face, a big helmet and could be the way to go for attending bike week ...... wear a full helmet with two masks inside, all total ..... while on the bike or on the boardwalk ....... and you are good to go to Bike Week! .....

Would you want to be one of the local cops that gets assigned to police the motorcycle crowds ...... no-thanks.

July 30, 2020 http://www.discovermagazine.com/heal...americans-were ..... 102 years later, the Laconia police will definitely have a lot better mask than what these 1918-police had for masks, back then! For $7.50, Walmart has a 5-pak of Hanes all-cotton, black or white three ply masks, made in Vietnam, that supposedly can stand up to 25 washings which seem like a comfy, sturdy, reliable type of a mouth/nose cover.

Too bad ...... there was no Walmart in 1918 ...... and look at the flimsy masks the 1918-Seattle cops got to use in the photo.

[LoveLakeLife]

“The most recent research ...”. Until the next round of most recent research.


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[SailinAway]

In my original post I meant to emphasize the "cult of selfishness" described in the Times opinion piece more than masks---masks are just an illustration.

The cult of selfishness is a huge change from decades ago and very striking today. I think it has gotten us into terrible trouble on many fronts. If you go back to the national war effort in World War II, you see that the whole nation pulled together and people were willing to make personal sacrifices for the good of the country, meaning their fellow citizens. With their efforts, we survived the war and were able to rebuild our lives. You also saw this in some but not all European countries, during both World War II and the pandemic. This is clearly not the case in the US today.

I realize that Krugman's article is highly partisan, but anyone 60 years or older remembers a time when there was no national cult of selfishness and greed, regardless of what party was in power. We never heard of road rage. People didn't cut in front of you in waiting lines. Tradesmen and doctors charged you what you could afford and didn't cheat you. Lower-middle-class workers could afford a reasonably priced house. People knew when their neighbors were in need and offered help. Any many more examples.

I don't think any society can survive with a cult of selfishness. If the goal of selfishness is to enhance personal wealth, freedom, etc., that seems doomed to fail, especially in a pandemic. What are you going to do with all that money and freedom when the virus catches up with you and kills you?

Krugman writes, "What they call 'freedom' is actually absence of responsibility." I love my freedom as much as anyone else. But people with an understanding of what it means to live in a society with other people also understand that you have to have equal measures of freedom and responsibility. If you're the parent of teenagers, you know how hard that is for adolescents. We have reverted to an adolescent understanding of freedom.

It just seems so obvious to me, as a basic moral principle that holds true in all times and all places, that the freedoms I want to claim for myself can't hurt or kill others. How have we strayed so far from this basic idea?

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

Krugman writes, "What they call 'freedom' is actually absence of responsibility." I love my freedom as much as anyone else. But people with an understanding of what it means to live in a society with other people also understand that you have to have equal measures of freedom and responsibility. If you're the parent of teenagers, you know how hard that is for adolescents. We have reverted to an adolescent understanding of freedom.

This is a very important point that goes beyond the mask issue. This "adolescent understanding of freedom" is what many of us on both sides of the partisan divide complain about when we see all sorts of dangerous, rude, thoughtless behavior on the lake; often followed by an explanation or denial that one might expect from their kids. Things like "Everybody's doing it...it's not against the law...just leave me alone...you can't make me!"

Doesn't it sound like your 15 year-old? Maybe your 8 year-old?

[fatlazyless]

So, if the coronavirus is just like the flu, or a bad flu, then why has the U.S. military banned corona survivors from joining the military?

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

So, if the coronavirus is just like the flu, or a bad flu, then why has the U.S. military banned corona survivors from joining the military?

Once again, FLL posts incorrect information.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...Zwe-jk5lexL9Ne

Dade

[fatlazyless]

May 12, 2020, opinion from www.taskandpurpose.com:

http://www.taskandpurpose.com/opinio...ve-in-military on 'Banning Covid-19 survivors from military ....

While not in the military, E-Rod, Eduardo Rodriguez, 27-year old Red Sox pitcher from Venezualia has been shut down for the season. Due to an inflammation of his heart, caused by coronavirus, is persistent and past the point where the Red Sox want to get him ready to pitch this season.

"Obviously, this is unfortunate news for a Red Sox team that currently has one of the worst pitching staffs in the major leagues. But with Rodriquez's heart issue persisting, shutting him down for the 60-game campaign is the decision that needed to be made."

The human physiology is almost always good-to-go for fixing itself, and getting healthy, but sometimes needs some extra help from trained medical care people. Like, how much does it hurt, and how much pain do you have, and maybe you really need to see a doctor?
.............

.... hey APS, what happened to your post from the Chinese military on the US military and the coronavirus ........ it seems to have been deleted? ....... that was an interesting read ...... any chance it can be re-posted here?

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

May 12, 2020, opinion from www.taskandpurpose.com:

http://www.taskandpurpose.com/opinio...ve-in-military

While not in the military, E-Rod, Eduardo Rodriguez, 27-year old Red Sox pitcher from Venezualia has been shut down for the season. Due to an inflammation of his heart, caused by coronavirus, is persistent and past the point where the Red Sox want to get him ready to pitch this season.

"Obviously, this is unfortunate news for a Red Sox team that currently has one of the worst pitching staffs in the major leagues. But with Rodriquez's heart issue persisting, shutting him down for the 60-game campaign is the decision that needed to be made."

The human physiology is almost always good-to-go for fixing itself, and getting healthy, but sometimes needs some extra help from trained medical care people. Like, how much does it hurt, and how much pain do you have, and maybe you really need to see a doctor?

Very sad for a person in their prime, especially one so gifted. I'll be surprised if the team/league makes it through the season as currently planned. 6 Teams--20% of the league--already have COVID cases, and they've barely begun. 19 games postponed over 11 days.

Commissioner and many others obviously in denial. Kind of like Washington. Sadness.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

.............

.... hey APS, what happened to your post from the Chinese military on the US military and the coronavirus ........ it seems to have been deleted? ....... that was an interesting read ...... any chance it can be re-posted here?

I tried Google for any reference, but no luck in this present miasma of corporate manipulation. I might have deleted it myself, after finding its veracity questioned by reliable sources.

Or...I might have included a reference to "Pravda on the Potomac"...

[TiltonBB]

It will be be interesting to see what people think about this.

Alfie Oaks- Covid Report


Alfie Oaks owns several food/grocery establishments through out Naples Florida. Just last year he opened up a multi million dollar store called Seed To Table, which took over 5 years to build. He also owns several thousands acres of farm land in central Collier County along with packaging and processing plants. Alfie has several thousand employees from the farm land to retail stores. He has always been one to speak his mind.


Below is his article that was published on the internet.

Most everyone of us at Seed to Table have never worn a mask.

Many people from the beginning of this political pandemic called me reckless and irresponsible. But let's look at the facts. Over 2300 employees and hardly anyone has even have the slightest bit of illness. Over the past four months the few members in our company that had the slightest symptoms went to a local doctor that I will not name to protect the use of hydroxychloroquine and vitamins. Every single employee that we sent over was better within two days.

The sad truth is the World Health Organization and CDC could have pulled off the same scam every year for the last 200 years. Knowing that every comorbidity has now been chalked up to Covid from the very beginning, it is clear to see why the numbers that are in excess of the normal flu season.

The facts clearly show that FEWER people have died during the first seven months of 2020 than during the same period in 2018 and 2019.

I completely understand why the masses have been conditioned by the media and are so eager to buy into the fear. Sometimes the LIE is so big that you would almost be a fool not to buy into it!


THE TIME HAS COME FOR THOSE STILL ASLEEP TO WAKE UP, BECAUSE THIS SHAM/DRESS REHEARSAL WILL CERTAINLY BE THE LAST CHANCE; THOSE CHOOSING TO REMAIN IN DENIAL, GIVING THE FINGER TO REALITY ARE GOING TO MAKE ALL OF US PAY THE PRICE ...

FEEL “FREE” TO FACT CHECK EACH OF THESE, PLEASE!


🔺"CDC admitted they screwed up COVID19 infection counts and intentionally misled the public and have apologized, clarifying that the amount of people truly infected is much lower than what was originally reported -- an error so egregious it made the director of the Harvard Global Health Institute say “how could the CDC make this mistake? This is a mess."


🔺The American Coronavirus Task Force also admitted to fudging the National COVID19 death count when Dr. Birx said the deaths are people who died “with” COVID19 not “from” COVID19, thus making the real death count much lower than what is currently being reported.


🔺Dr. Anthony Fauci admitted masks won’t help against the virus and mask manufacturers are now including warnings that their products do not deter COVID19.

🔺Fauci also said that continuing to close the country could cause irreparable damage.

🔺CDC backtracked their initial claim that led governors to shutdown their states & clarified that COVID19 does not spread easily on surfaces.

🔺Governor of New York Andrew Cuomo confirmed a recent health study showing that 70% of new infections actually originate at home, thus making stay at home orders one of the most dangerous mandates currently in place.

🔺Trump stopped funding the WHO and threatened to cut off money permanently until they can prove they are no longer corruptly influenced by communist China after they lied to our country about human to human transmission of COVID19 in January.

🔺The curve is flattened, the CDC, WHO, Dr. Fauci, our governors, and many more were completely wrong about the potential threat of this virus.


🔺If you are still living in fear, Don’t be. The media, global organizations, the government, and its agencies “mislead” the public.


🔺People called those of us who knew this all along conspiracy theorists, but it turns out we were just following the facts!

🔺Open up your businesses, churches, and homes. Don’t fall for the lies any longer. If you fell for the lies this time, wake up and join the army of truth seekers fighting on the front lines.

🔺 Florida has just admitted to miscalculations on some that received positive COVID-19 results but never got tested and many others have been incorrectly identified as positive in the state’s system.

🔺 WHO have just admitted that transmission of the virus from an asymptomatic carriers - the whole reason for the lockdown, is rare!! ie you could not spread it before showing any symptoms!!

⚠ The CDC just confirmed a .4 to .26% death-rate for Covid 19. The death rate for the flu shot is .6. Twice as high as Covid!


For that, we have:

• Added nearly 6 trillion to national debt

• Laid-off or furloughed 50 million workers

• Placed 60 million on food stamps

• Gone from 3.5%to 14.7% unemployment

• Crippled the petroleum industry

• Ruined the tourism industry

• Bankrupted the service industry

• Caused an impending meat and protein crisis

• Threatened, fined, and arrested church leaders

• Exacerbated mental health problems

• Shut down schools and colleges

• Given unbridled power to unelected officials

• Increased suicides higher than COVID deaths

• Delayed surgeries and treatments for profound illnesses

• Infringed upon countless important civil liberties

• Placed 300 million Americans on house arrest

Bill Gates has placed himself in such a position of influence by heavily funding all corners to make this lie happen.

We need to start treating it as the lie it is.

Seriously our whole way of life is at stake, and they have plans to make it much worse now introducing it as "the grand reset", "the beginning of the 4th revolution" (ie a surveillance state of control, where everyone lives in what is essentially a strict open air prison where you are tracked, nothing is private, and everything is decided for you, and you have no rights whatsoever, and there can be no resistance.

[WinnisquamZ]

Well written


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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

It will be be interesting to see what people think about this.

Alfie Oaks- Covid Report

I can't quite tell you what I think of the whole thing--I had to stop reading when it was clear he was unaware or in denial that hundreds of thousands of people have died, including many in his home state of Florida.

Also--not sure at all what this has to do with the Lakes Region. Seems to be just rehashing other obvious misinformation at the national level. If you're going to publish stuff from paranoid morons, I think they're supposed to be local.

[gillygirl]

I had to stop reading when he said the WHO and the CDC have pulled off the same scam for 200 years.


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[ApS]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I can't quite tell you what I think of the whole thing--I had to stop reading when it was clear he was unaware or in denial that hundreds of thousands of people have died, including many in his home state of Florida.

Also--not sure at all what this has to do with the Lakes Region. Seems to be just rehashing other obvious misinformation at the national level. If you're going to publish stuff from paranoid morons, I think they're supposed to be local.

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Well written

A very (very, very) long "open letter" to Dr. Fauci by three American physicians makes the case for HCQ.

After asking nearly 100 questions--In sum:

"Dismissal of the science results in bad medicine, and the outcome is over 160,000 dead Americans. Countries that have followed the science and treated the disease in the early stages have far better results, a fact that has been concealed from the American Public".

https://www.thedesertreview.com/opin...0983bc072.html

And, to pile-on...

Today the Governor of Minnesota has "unbanned" the use (and prescriptions for) HCQ.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by ApS

A very (very, very) long "open letter" to Dr. Fauci by three American physicians makes the case for HCQ.

After asking nearly 100 questions--In sum:

"Dismissal of the science results in bad medicine, and the outcome is over 160,000 dead Americans. Countries that have followed the science and treated the disease in the early stages have far better results, a fact that has been concealed from the American Public".

https://www.thedesertreview.com/opin...0983bc072.html

And, to pile-on...

Today the Governor of Minnesota has "unbanned" the use (and prescriptions for) HCQ.

So your conclusion is that the ENTIRE worldwide medical establishment has conspired to let people die instead of evaluate fairly? Thank goodness we have some crazy Florida grocer and 3 random quacks to save us.

But back to Don's request of all of us--if you're going to publish ridiculous stuff, it's at least supposed to be Lakes Region ridiculous stuff, isn't it?

[Hillcountry]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

I had to stop reading when he said the WHO and the CDC have pulled off the same scam for 200 years.


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He said the “WHO and CDC COULD HAVE pulled this off”
Learn to read please...

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by Hillcountry

He said the “WHO and CDC COULD HAVE pulled this off”

Learn to read please...

Learn to be nice.


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[Jdarby]

Originally Posted by Hillcountry

He said the “WHO and CDC COULD HAVE pulled this off”

Learn to read please...

How COULD they have perpetuated the same scam for 200 years when they haven’t even existed for 100 years? He might as well said 500 or 2,000 years. Either way it’s baseless rhetoric. Heck NASA could have put a man on the moon 500 years ago if weren’t for the lack of funding until the Kennedy administration! LMAO. After learning to read, everyone should then move on to history. Many of the comorbidities were unknown to science 200 years ago. So the claim is a baseless over exaggeration of what the reality even is in order for him to try to prove his point.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Over the past several months, we have seen several physicians interviewed re the use of hydrochloroquine in the treatment of Covid-19, and they made very compelling arguments for some remarkable results when used with another drug and when used early in the diagnosric process. They certainly did not come across as “quacks”. I am not a physician, and I don’t pretend to be an expert on this, but we found it odd...more than odd, in fact that a number of states outlawed its use for this disease until very recently. My interest in this on this forum is not intended to stir the political pot, but the issue is germane to residents of the lakes region as we deal with this pandemic. It makes no sense to me to limit the use of hydrochloroquine, a relatively inexpensive drug, when it has allegedly had remarkable success with many patients. Maybe we can hear from some local physicians on this.

[Hillcountry]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

Learn to be nice.


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I said “please”

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

Over the past several months, we have seen several physicians interviewed re the use of hydrochloroquine in the treatment of Covid-19, and they made very compelling arguments for some remarkable results when used with another drug and when used early in the diagnosric process. They certainly did not come across as “quacks”. I am not a physician, and I don’t pretend to be an expert on this, but we found it odd...more than odd, in fact that a number of states outlawed its use for this disease until very recently. My interest in this on this forum is not intended to stir the political pot, but the issue is germane to residents of the lakes region as we deal with this pandemic. It makes no sense to me to limit the use of hydrochloroquine, a relatively inexpensive drug, when it has allegedly had remarkable success with many patients. Maybe we can hear from some local physicians on this.

Virtually any drug, even a sugar pill, will show excellent results on a small number of patients. Our system insists on clinical trials so that these random occurrences do not end up setting health policy or drug approvals. I'm sure my Republican friend Maxum, who works for a clinical trials company, will concur here

Better than local physicians, who are subject to the same kind of anecdotal distortions, let's hear from the FDA. They've said that there are serious safety risks and no proven benefit. I hope that folks will read the link and also remember that the FDA leadership is controlled by the President. The President lets the FDA discourage its use because he knows he was wrong to tout it during the "this will all be over by Easter" phase.

https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safet...tal-setting-or

[I.C.Isles]

Just one data point. But I know people that have been on hydrochloroquine for 20 years to boost immune system with no negative results. Somethings need to be monitored to make sure there and no negative effects but it is manageable. Can’t say for certain it is making a difference based on small sample size....but it is certainly not the dangerous drug many in media make it out to be.


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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by I.C.Isles

Just one data point. But I know people that have been on hydrochloroquine for 20 years to boost immune system with no negative results. Somethings need to be monitored to make sure there and no negative effects but it is manageable. Can’t say for certain it is making a difference based on small sample size....but it is certainly not the dangerous drug many in media make it out to be.


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When we call a drug "dangerous", this does not mean that it hurts most people. It's dangerous to the FDA even if the majority can benefit. Just as an example--Merck's blockbuster drug Vioxx benefitted millions of people, but 3-4%(?) suffered heart problems and a fraction of those died. They paid over $4 billion for selling a "dangerous" drug that showed no problems for 95% of the people who took it. There were millions of patients and thousands of doctors who thought Vioxx was great.

So while it might seem like HCQ is getting a bum rap or being critiqued unfairly, it's really just going through the same brutal approval process as everything else.

For folks who'd like more info, you might want to google "Phase III clinical trials", or "FDA approval process", or "how many drugs fail clinical trials" for more explanation of how and why we hold experimental stuff to high standards and why very promising therapies often fail.

[I.C.Isles]

Not sure I understand your point. HCQ has been prescribed for decades by numerous doctors as an effective treatment to help people with immune deficiencies. The risks and potential side effects are well understood. It has been through the “brutal approval process” and is not experimental. What is not known for this drug, or any other at this point, is whether it is effective in helping people against this particular virus.


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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by I.C.Isles

Not sure I understand your point. HCQ has been prescribed for decades by numerous doctors as an effective treatment to help people with immune deficiencies. The risks and potential side effects are well understood. It has been through the “brutal approval process” and is not experimental. What is not known for this drug, or any other at this point, is whether it is effective in helping people against this particular virus.


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I had two points:

First, it's easy to find people who will vouch for therapies the FDA would describe as unsafe and/or ineffective based on Phase III clinical trials. That's frustrating, but it is not unique to COVID-19. There is not some grand conspiracy, it's just how we regulate medicine in general.

Second, HCQ is experimental with respect to COVID-19. We do not have a rigorous understanding of the benefits, and early results, as referenced in my FDA link above, are not promising.

[Newbiesaukee]

Not to get in the middle of this. HCQ does have a long history of medical use...boosting the immune system is not one of them. It has not been used to “help people with immune deficiencies.” It actually has been used for the opposite effect.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

Excellent editorial yesterday: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/27/o...gtype=Homepage

My position is simple: I don't want to make you sick in case I'm a carrier of COVID-19 with no symptoms. And I don't want you to make me sick in case you're a carrier. The most recent research says that transmission through the air is real---summarized here by an engineer who studies aerosol virus transmission: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/30/o...gtype=Homepage

Hence I gladly wear a mask for your protection, and in hopes that you will protect me in return.

I put a mask on as I leave my car, but it's only to "get along".

Employees at Wolfeboro's Walgreens wear their masks, but half of 'em wear their masks under their nose or on their chins.

Efficacy of four different models are demonstrated at YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrPCgh4UkAU

[thinkxingu]

I keep going back to other countries, like Germany. How do they have this much more under control? Scientific articles have been published that claim America could be at 40-50k deaths instead of 200+k. How? Usually has to do with masks, time, distance, and saturation, right?

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[Garcia]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I keep going back to other countries, like Germany. How do they have this much more under control? Scientific articles have been published that claim America could be at 40-50k deaths instead of 200+k. How? Usually has to do with masks, time, distance, and saturation, right?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

We don't have a national plan with a shared sense of purpose and objectives. Instead there is a jumble of messages which often contradict each other. This allows many to turn the debate from one based on science and health to politics and Constitutional rights.

[Merrymeeting]

Originally Posted by ApS

Employees at Wolfeboro's Walgreens wear their masks, but half of 'em wear their masks under their nose or on their chins.

And several of them are the pharmacists!

[SAMIAM]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I keep going back to other countries, like Germany. How do they have this much more under control? Scientific articles have been published that claim America could be at 40-50k deaths instead of 200+k. How? Usually has to do with masks, time, distance, and saturation, right?

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Have no idea if it's true or not but heard that some hospitals have reported deaths from other causes as COVID. Jimmy Kimmil joked on his show that if you got shot dead in the street in New York it would be reported as COVID

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Have no idea if it's true or not but heard that some hospitals have reported deaths from other causes as COVID. Jimmy Kimmil joked on his show that if you got shot dead in the street in New York it would be reported as COVID

I can tell you I had a client in hospice with cancer and tested positive post mortem and they labeled him a Covid death on the certificate.


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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I can tell you I had a client in hospice with cancer and tested positive post mortem and they labeled him a Covid death on the certificate.


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No data collection is perfect. But the covid deaths can be triangulated on from a wide variety of sources. All of those sources point top a devastating loss of life directly from covid.

Maybe before you launch another round of politically charged misinformation on covid, you'll go back and look at some of your posts from the spring assuring us it's nothing, will blow over soon, vaccine by July, etc

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I can tell you I had a client in hospice with cancer and tested positive post mortem and they labeled him a Covid death on the certificate.


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I think of it like this: someone can have cancer and get hit by a car while crossing the street. It's the car that killed him.

I know it's not that simple, but a lot of the cases are old(er) people who ultimately died from the complications of Covid (who would not have died otherwise).

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[Flylady]

Thinking that an older person in a nursing home that died of Covid is the same as dying from old age peacefully is wrong. Covid impairs the lungs ability to breathe thus causing the victim to experience the effect of drowning before they get put (if they do) on a ventilator.

Also the reason for death is very important, because if the victim has covid, the process of how their body is handled is very different than that of someone who does not have covid.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

No data collection is perfect. But the covid deaths can be triangulated on from a wide variety of sources. All of those sources point top a devastating loss of life directly from covid.

Maybe before you launch another round of politically charged misinformation on covid, you'll go back and look at some of your posts from the spring assuring us it's nothing, will blow over soon, vaccine by July, etc

They say we've hit 200,000 deaths. Even if that is over stated by double it's still too many.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

No data collection is perfect. But the covid deaths can be triangulated on from a wide variety of sources. All of those sources point top a devastating loss of life directly from covid.

Maybe before you launch another round of politically charged misinformation on covid, you'll go back and look at some of your posts from the spring assuring us it's nothing, will blow over soon, vaccine by July, etc

I’m not getting into this but I completely disagree. All that can be said if the 200k that have died tested positive for COVID not that it was the direct cause of death.

My sister is in the medical field in NY along with several of my clients. Many including cancer heart attacks and cancer victim deaths were labeled Covid just because they tested positive. Remember a hospital received 30k from the fed for every “Covid” death. The numbers are severely skewed and extremely misleading.


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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I’m not getting into this but I completely disagree. All that can be said if the 200k that have died tested positive for COVID not that it was the direct cause of death.

My sister is in the medical field in NY along with several of my clients. Many including cancer heart attacks and cancer victim deaths were labeled Covid just because they tested positive. Remember a hospital received 30k from the fed for every “Covid” death. The numbers are severely skewed and extremely misleading.


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Oh, now I understand--there is a nationwide conspiracy among doctors to misstate the cause of death so that their employer can collect. These doctors don't mind filing false claims, committing insurance fraud, lying to families, etc.

Plus, it's a complete mystery as to how hundreds of thousands of additional people have died this year compared to last. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/c...ess_deaths.htm

Thank you for clarifying.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Oh, now I understand--there is a nationwide conspiracy among doctors to misstate the cause of death so that their employer can collect. These doctors don't mind filing false claims, committing insurance fraud, lying to families, etc.

Plus, it's a complete mystery as to how hundreds of thousands of additional people have died this year compared to last. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/c...ess_deaths.htm

Thank you for clarifying.

You are blind to the fact it is ALL about money and an election. Yes Covid exists yes your should take precautions but to shut down an economy and an education system will have much larger ramifications in the future.

Yes people died of Covid but no worse than the normal flu and less than other flu strains such as swine and Zika yet the country was not shut down.

ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY CONTROL AND AN ELECTION. THIS IS NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY CHECK THE FACTS



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[jbolty]

I well remember one of the most recent scandals in the VA system. One of the things the hospital management was judged on was how long people waited for appointments so if a request was in the system for too long they just deleted it to improve their metrics. So sure, people will create phony documents and lie about things for money or power or status and it does not have to be a conspiracy just random disconnected groups given incentive to cheat.

And don't forget there were some 300 labs in Florida that reported only positive test results showing a 100% rate. Whatever happened to that? I never heard any more about it and who knows if the numbers were corrected but I do know it was about the time everyones hair was on fire over the "surging" numbers in Florida.

https://www.wfla.com/8-on-your-side/...te-data-shows/

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by joey2665

You are blind to the fact it is ALL about money and an election. Yes Covid exists yes your should take precautions but to shut down an economy and an education system will have much larger ramifications in the future.

Yes people died of Covid but no worse than the normal flu and less than other flu strains such as swine and Zika yet the country was not shut down.

ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY CONTROL AND AN ELECTION. THIS IS NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY CHECK THE FACTS


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Why don’t you post the link to facts, as FlyingScot has? Did you read the article in his link?


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[joey2665]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

Why don’t you post the link to facts, as FlyingScot has? Did you read the article in his link?


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My fact are from first hand experience not from the press.

But here are some from the CDC. This is what a whole country was shut down for, maybe we should shut down the fast food and tobacco industry while we are at it as they kill more people than Covid.




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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by joey2665

You are blind to the fact it is ALL about money and an election. Yes Covid exists yes your should take precautions but to shut down an economy and an education system will have much larger ramifications in the future.

Yes people died of Covid but no worse than the normal flu and less than other flu strains such as swine and Zika yet the country was not shut down.

ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY CONTROL AND AN ELECTION. THIS IS NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY CHECK THE FACTS


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I stand corrected again. I had mistakenly assumed that your recent break from publishing ridiculous stuff about covid was because you realized how mistaken all your posts in spring had been. I figured that since the virus did infect more than 8 or 10 people, was not gone by Easter, or eradicated by a vaccine in July; that you realized how misled you had been.

I hope you'll take a deep breath, go back and read all your posts, and then compare them to what actually happened.

[Pricestavern]

Originally Posted by joey2665

ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY CONTROL AND AN ELECTION. THIS IS NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY CHECK THE FACTS

I don't think the rest of the world is in on skewing our election by faking their numbers and shutting down for no good reason. They did it because it is airborne, easily transmittable, affects both young and old, and is deadly. There's a big world out there that are dealing with the same things we are and have been doing it better. It ain't all about us.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I stand corrected again. I had mistakenly assumed that your recent break from publishing ridiculous stuff about covid was because you realized how mistaken all your posts in spring had been. I figured that since the virus did infect more than 8 or 10 people, was not gone by Easter, or eradicated by a vaccine in July; that you realized how misled you had been.

I hope you'll take a deep breath, go back and read all your posts, and then compare them to what actually happened.

Absolutely because you know what happened and the rest of us don’t. Sure I bow to your superior intelligence and intellect. You need to sift through the media nonsense you are buying into.

There simply just were not 209k deaths DIRECTLY due to Covid.

Even if there were in a country of 300k it is ludicrous to shut down the economy and education system.

Again take precautions wear a mask keep a distance but to close a country is crazy.

The collateral damage of the economy and our children in the future is incalculable.

Your have you opinion I have mine. Done!



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[Garcia]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I keep going back to other countries, like Germany. How do they have this much more under control? Scientific articles have been published that claim America could be at 40-50k deaths instead of 200+k. How? Usually has to do with masks, time, distance, and saturation, right?

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Read through the previous posts and you'll get your answer. We're not looking at the same set of facts which makes it impossible to develop a strategy to address the problem.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Garcia

Read through the previous posts and you'll get your answer. We're not looking at the same set of facts which makes it impossible to develop a strategy to address the problem.

Yup, and the same vitriolic discourse.
Hope y'all are well at your school.

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[Garcia]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Yup, and the same vitriolic discourse.
Hope y'all are well at your school.

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Five days/week of in person learning. Lots of new protocols but parents are supportive. A big challenge is the daily health check - answer yes and you're out of school for 10 days or until you produce a negative COVID test. Students, even PreK are wearing masks, trying to maintain distance, and washing hands a lot.

[Jdarby]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I think of it like this: someone can have cancer and get hit by a car while crossing the street. It's the car that killed him.

I know it's not that simple, but a lot of the cases are old(er) people who ultimately died from the complications of Covid (who would not have died otherwise).

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You are spot on. It pretty much is that simple. If COVID hastened their death then its totally appropriate to attribute their death to COVID even though they had cancer.

I’ve personally known 11 people now that have had it. One has passed and she was elderly. All others have thankfully recovered however one was very ill requiring hospitalization and nearly was placed on a ventilator. Fortunately he just barely was able to maintain adequate oxygenation and improved without requiring intubation. He had NO (ZERO) associated risk factors and is in his 40’s. He’s a health conscious guy who works out like crazy and probably caught COVID which nearly killed him at the gym....how’s that for irony? For those that think they are healthy and therefore this is no big deal.....I say...GOOD LUCK!


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[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Jdarby

You are spot on. It pretty much is that simple. If COVID hastened their death then its totally appropriate to attribute their death to COVID even though they had cancer.

I’ve personally known 11 people now that have had it. One has passed and she was elderly. All others have thankfully recovered however one was very ill requiring hospitalization and nearly was placed on a ventilator. Fortunately he just barely was able to maintain adequate oxygenation and improved without requiring intubation. He had NO (ZERO) associated risk factors and is in his 40’s. He’s a health conscious guy who works out like crazy and probably caught COVID which nearly killed him at the gym....how’s that for irony? For those that think they are healthy and therefore this is no big deal.....I say...GOOD LUCK!


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You hit on an important aspect: the lasting effects. Though two people I know have *recovered* they still are struggling with lingering issues.

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[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Garcia

Five days/week of in person learning. Lots of new protocols but parents are supportive. A big challenge is the daily health check - answer yes and you're out of school for 10 days or until you produce a negative COVID test. Students, even PreK are wearing masks, trying to maintain distance, and washing hands a lot.

Nice—full in would be great. My principle got on the intercom today to let us know the town had been downgraded to yellow.

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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Absolutely because you know what happened and the rest of us don’t. Sure I bow to your superior intelligence and intellect. You need to sift through the media nonsense you are buying into.

There simply just were not 209k deaths DIRECTLY due to Covid.


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No need to get nasty or quibble about whether it's 209K, 200K, or whatever. All of us are intelligent enough to know that there have been a gigantic number of people killed by COVID-19, and that the number is going up every day. I just hope you're able to see that you trusted the wrong people when they told you this was nothing in February or would be gone by Easter, or we'd have a vaccine by July, or...

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

No need to get nasty or quibble about whether it's 209K, 200K, or whatever. All of us are intelligent enough to know that there have been a gigantic number of people killed by COVID-19, and that the number is going up every day. I just hope you're able to see that you trusted the wrong people when they told you this was nothing in February or would be gone by Easter, or we'd have a vaccine by July, or...

Thanks for the unsolicited advice. You believe what you want and I will trust my first hand experience and the simple facts and data.


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[iw8surf]

Originally Posted by Jdarby

You are spot on. It pretty much is that simple. If COVID hastened their death then its totally appropriate to attribute their death to COVID even though they had cancer.

I’ve personally known 11 people now that have had it. One has passed and she was elderly. All others have thankfully recovered however one was very ill requiring hospitalization and nearly was placed on a ventilator. Fortunately he just barely was able to maintain adequate oxygenation and improved without requiring intubation. He had NO (ZERO) associated risk factors and is in his 40’s. He’s a health conscious guy who works out like crazy and probably caught COVID which nearly killed him at the gym....how’s that for irony? For those that think they are healthy and therefore this is no big deal.....I say...GOOD LUCK!

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I had a coworker get hit by a car merging on his motorcycle last month. He died of Covid though.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by iw8surf

I had a coworker get hit by a car merging on his motorcycle last month. He died of Covid though.

Thank you. That is exactly what I have been saying. There is a HUGE difference in passing away WITH COVID as over 200k have and ACTUALLY PASSING FROM COVID.

Wake up it’s about money and control.


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[ApS]

Originally Posted by Garcia

We don't have a national plan with a shared sense of purpose and objectives. Instead there is a jumble of messages which often contradict each other. This allows many to turn the debate from one based on science and health to politics and Constitutional rights.

Last I checked, New York accounts for half of our Covid-19 casualties. It's not too long a shot to say, they messed up!

Extending sea-to-sea, state governments are charged with an appropriate actions by those individual states. Local governments also play a part. (Montana is bigger than Germany).

BTW: A German minister said today, that deaths from "other causes" will handily exceed Covid-19 deaths--especially in Africa. NGOs have drawn back from Africa to assist the home country.

[Lakegeezer]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Wake up it’s about money and control.

You are right. The NH governor has been pretty good about threading the needle of control and for the most part, it is currently working. The state and lakes region are among the safest areas in the country to not catch the virus. Walk-in businesses are also trying to control people by requiring masks, so they can make money. No masks means fewer customers, especially customers at higher risk. Some areas of the country opted for less control, or had less compliance and are showing new spikes. The goal has to be to keep those spikes from going exponential.

The money for healthcare treatments, research and vaccines, along with bail-outs is like water, magically flowing from empty coffers. Mostly for perceived needs. Too soon to be sure how that will play out. Probably a lot of waste.

I'm not buying most of the conspiracy theories, especially at the local and state levels but epic exploitation seems to be common behind the scenes. If it was a US only epidemic, maybe someone could be found pulling the strings, but a global conspiracy seems unlikely. You can't fool all the people all of the time, I hope.

So yes, wake up. Consider the control recommendations and obey the few requirements. Accept that they are good for the community, are everyone's responsibility and will change as new information is learned or curves shift up again. Much of the various government levels are doing their best to help. Be glad the state isn't trying to control its citizens as strongly as in other parts of the world.

Spend your money locally. Take what you need from government handouts and call out corona corruption where you see it. Live life on your terms, balancing your unique balance of risk and precaution and letting others live theirs. Here in the lakes region, I think most of us get this and have been rewarded with a lot of freedom. The few selfish ones that aren't buying into the need for control are at little risk because so many are taking precautions.

The nightmare will be over eventually. Maybe we'll have a "roaring 20's" again to celebrate. The history books of 2120 will tell the tale much like we read of the 1918 pandemic today. By then, the yearly excess deaths and the long term health issues by demographic will be better known. In 2040, we'll be asking if someone died of a heart problem or was it because they had Corona in 2020.

[JEEPONLY]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

The few selfish ones that aren't buying into the need for control are at little risk because so many are taking precautions.

The nightmare will be over eventually. Maybe we'll have a "roaring 20's" again to celebrate.

Yes!- on the few selfish ones!
I'd rather have the 60s- same as the 20s, really!

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by ApS

Last I checked, New York accounts for half of our Covid-19 casualties. It's not too long a shot to say, they messed up!

Extending sea-to-sea, state governments are charged with an appropriate actions by those individual states. Local governments also play a part. (Montana is bigger than Germany).

BTW: A German minister said today, that deaths from "other causes" will handily exceed Covid-19 deaths--especially in Africa. NGOs have drawn back from Africa to assist the home country.

You missed my point. A national policy does not need to be a once size fits all (or one size fits none) but we have leadership at the national level that contradicts itself and its own departments and experts. That's what I was getting at.

[Jdarby]

Originally Posted by iw8surf

I had a coworker get hit by a car merging on his motorcycle last month. He died of Covid though.

Did your co-worker die at the scene of injuries from the crash? Or did your co-worker survive the crash, contract COVID while in the hospital and die of pulmonary complications associated with COVID-19 that they would not have otherwise had? So yes, it is possible to attribute a death associated with a motorcycle crash to COVID-19. Would they have died if they hadn’t been in a motorcycle crash? No. Would they have died if they had been in a motorcycle crash but not contracted COVID and it’s associated pulmonary complications? Well now, that is the question. So did they die from a motorcycle crash or from complications associated with COVID? That is exactly what I’m talking about! Some of you want to simplify the epidemiology of this disease and it’s mortality rate. It’s not that easy. Nothing is easy about epidemiology but some of you all have it all figured out based on what you Google and hear on the news. That’s like picking your physician based upon how many episodes of Grey’s Anatomy they’ve watched! There is and has been some misreporting but some does not equate to substantial misreporting. The overall death rate in the US is about 8-12% higher for the first 7 months of this year than the previous year. The most significant variable of 2020 is COVID-19. Traumatic injury death rates are down as people were in their homes and not participating in at risk behaviors. I’ll let you in on a little secret. In the end, EVERYONE dies of cardiac arrest. When the heart stops it’s all over for each of us. I laugh every time I hear that reported in the news...”So and so was reported to have died of cardiac arrest.” Of course they did...but what precipitated that? Well that often gets complicated.


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[iw8surf]

Originally Posted by Jdarby

Did your co-worker die at the scene of injuries from the crash? Or did your co-worker survive the crash, contract COVID while in the hospital and die of pulmonary complications associated with COVID-19 that they would not have otherwise had? So yes, it is possible to attribute a death associated with a motorcycle crash to COVID-19. Would they have died if they hadn’t been in a motorcycle crash? No. Would they have died if they had been in a motorcycle crash but not contracted COVID and it’s associated pulmonary complications? Well now, that is the question. So did they die from a motorcycle crash or from complications associated with COVID? That is exactly what I’m talking about! Some of you want to simplify the epidemiology of this disease and it’s mortality rate. It’s not that easy. Nothing is easy about epidemiology but some of you all have it all figured out based on what you Google and hear on the news. That’s like picking your physician based upon how many episodes of Grey’s Anatomy they’ve watched! There is and has been some misreporting but some does not equate to substantial misreporting. The overall death rate in the US is about 8-12% higher for the first 7 months of this year than the previous year. The most significant variable of 2020 is COVID-19. Traumatic injury death rates are down as people were in their homes and not participating in at risk behaviors. I’ll let you in on a little secret. In the end, EVERYONE dies of cardiac arrest. When the heart stops it’s all over for each of us. I laugh every time I hear that reported in the news...”So and so was reported to have died of cardiac arrest.” Of course they did...but what precipitated that? Well that often gets complicated.


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He didn’t even make it into the ambulance alive unfortunately. They said he was tested and had covid. Must’ve been one of the cases that were not bothered by it. Was still out living his normal life.

[Jdarby]

Originally Posted by iw8surf

He didn’t even make it into the ambulance alive unfortunately. They said he was tested and had covid. Must’ve been one of the cases that were not bothered by it. Was still out living his normal life.

I’m sorry to hear that. Well that would clearly be a misreported COVID death if it was reported as such.


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