Meredith considers going union

[fatlazyless]

The Meredith Department of Public Works which has 34 employees has filed a petition with the State of New Hampshire's Labor Relations Board to form a collective bargaining unit. Town representatives and town attorneys have various objections and appeared before the board yesterday. The petiton was filed with the state board by the Service Employees International Union, Local 1984, in September.

Meredith is a central New Hampshire town of about 6000 residents, and has about 78 town employees which does not include the public school employees as they are part of a separate school administrative unit that includes the neighboring towns of Sandwich and Center Harbor.

With 34 out of 78 total town employees, the public works department is the largest single department except for the school.

In September 2007. the nearby town of Gilford's police department chose to be represented by the Teamster's Union. The Gilford DPW had earlier gone union with the S.E.I.U., too.

"State law requires at least 10 employees to comprise a bargaining unit unless the governing body, in this case the Board of Selectmen, expressly agree to a smaller unit." www.citizen.com, news reports, Dec 3 & 4, 2008 by Gail Ober & Erin Plummer
......
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I believe that one of the arguments in favor of unionization is that it allows for private, ballot booth, voting on a paper ballot, similar to how we vote for political candidates, as opposed to a public show of hands when voting work related issues.

So, for the 6000 residents of Meredith, the five Meredith selectmen, and especially for the Meredith property tax payer, who pays for everything in Meredith: is having town employees choosing to be represented by a union in their contract agreements a good thing or a bad thing or just a ho-hum thing? What do you think?

[Belmont Resident]

Ever notice that many of the companies having problems are union?
Auto industry, DHL etc.
Having a wife in Human Resources I here it all and unions are not a good thing for any company that wants to stay profitable.
Union workers make higher wages than the average person would which in turn is what is driving up prices and forcing companies to send their labor to other countries.
In the union your job security is based on seniority not job performance.
What ever happened to an honest days pay for an honest days work.
I believe the news said that auto workers were making 75K including benefits.
I’m sorry but that’s just not right and that is why we pay such high prices for the substandard product that the auto industry makes. I’ve owned both and would gladly buy imports over US because the quality just is not there. I had a Toyota that had no problems at all. I now own a Ford and if it was not for the fact I need a superduty truck to plow and sand I would own another Toyota.
I love this country but I have always been against unions and believe if they all went away this country would be a better place for all.

[tis]

I agree with you Belmont Resident. Actually, I am surprised Meredith does not already have a union. Wolfeboro, a town with also about 6000 people is mostly union.
The unions have done a lot to contribute to the auto industry woes and I think if they were allowed to file bankruptcy, the unions would have to give.
It makes me mad to bail them out to give to the unions.

[bilproject]

My opinion is that if workers are looking to unionize then management has failed to meet their needs. Most often it is not money that drives workers to seek out a union. It may be a public works diirector that does not treat workers evenly and fairly. Policy is not clear and is not applied equally. Joe may get time off whenever he needs it and Harry gets told no we are too busy. It may also be that the workers feel that they are not appreciated and have no voice with the town.
We sucessfully deunionized several of our locations here in New Jersey by treating the worker fairly and paying a fair wage and benefits for the area and work. We had to make workers trust management to do the right thing as apposed to trusting the union to watch out for their well being.
Meredith should fight the attempt by taking a good look at their management and addressing the workers concerns. My limited contact with DPW employees at the recycling center has told me that they are hard working but do not seem to be a happy work force.
Pay is only one small part of the equation. The changes to work rules that will come about as the workers try to negotiate away what makes them unhappy will be far costlier in productivity.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by Belmont Resident

Ever notice that many of the companies having problems are union?
...
What ever happened to an honest days pay for an honest days work.
I believe the news said that auto workers were making 75K including benefits.
I’m sorry but that’s just not right and that is why we pay such high prices for the substandard product that the auto industry makes. ...

The big three pay over $73 an hour in total compensation. $73 x 40 hours/week x 52 weeks = $151,840 per year. Other car makers in the US pay about $43 per hour.

This ridiculous compensation in the face of competition is not the worst problem however. The "job bank" has the automakers paying 95% of wages to laid off employees for years after they are no longer working. Unions require all sorts of ridiculous rules that are anti productive and costly.

My Dad worked a union shop and the stories he would tell me. Workers coming back from lunch drunk, deliberate sabotage of work, pressure on workers who wanted to do a honest days work to slow down because it made the other workers look bad, hour long bathroom breaks, efficiency ideas that workers had stifled BY THE UNION because you don't help the company. It went on and on, all protected by the union. You couldn't touch one of their members. The strength of the union was supposed to be better wages but they went out on strike a few times. I figured out that one time they lost more money on strike for several months than they would make back in 4 years of raises.

When they started, unions served a needed purpose. They fought sweatshop conditions, unfair management behavior, and abysmal wages. Those battles have long been won and the current unions have no valid purpose. They bloat payrolls and stifle efficiency and creativity.

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by jeffk

My Dad worked a union shop and the stories he would tell me.

Same here. One small story involving several unions on a job site (steelworkers, carpenters, electricity, etc.) The steelworkers needed to lay iron over concrete that had just cured. Before they could do that, though, the wooden frame around the concrete needed to be knocked away. No skill involved here, and no need to preserve the wooden frame. The only requirement was to simply take a hammer and knock the boards away. All-in-all, a 15-minute job for four people. Simple, eh?

Not so simple after all. This was the Carpenter's Union job (because it involved wood). Steelworkers were not allowed to touch lumber on the job site. Couldn't pick it up; couldn't move it out of the way; total hands-off. Union rules, dontcha know.

Well, the carpenters weren't available -- they were busy elsewhere, even though the construction schedule showed them removing the frame first thing in the morning. Wasn't until about 2:00pm that they became available. So, what did the steelworkers do? Just hung around until they could punch out at the end of the day. A whole day's wages by 8 steelworkers down the drain -- because of union rules.

That type of nonsense doesn't happen on non-union jobs. But it happens all the time on union jobs. Why? Because the union is all about power and self-protection, and they set up obscene rules to protect themselves; and they use intimidation (via threats of violence and via legal actions) to enforce the rules. These rules make no business sense at all, and they cost the nation big-time in terms of money, lost productivity, and innovation.

[SAMIAM]

Well said,jeffk.You pretty much covered it.Unions were helpful in the 30's and 40's but now they are a cancer.It was not business or government that drove jobs overseas......it was the unions.Demanding more and more by bullying and intimidating employers with threats of strikes......skillfully pitting employee against employer rather than one unit working for success for all.
That's why they want so badly to get into Walmart......so they can tear down another thriving business.I try not to rant too much,but unions get me going.

[ishoot308]

Couldn't agree more...Being a business owner in the construction trades with over 100 employees, we are constantly threatened by union takeover. In the specific trade we are in, there has NEVER been one single company in the state of NH to survive a union agreement. Most went out of busineess within one year!

[twoplustwo]

The only point of unions' existence at this point is self-preservation.

[Belmont Resident]

I thought I would get the opposite response. Glad to see there are others who feel the same way.
Well that being said Obama is pro union and there is a bill being proposed that would make it easier for unions to start up and leave companies little or no room to oppose this. You might want to look into this and call your rep and let it be known you oppose this bill. I'll try and find out more about this bill.

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by Belmont Resident

Obama is pro union and there is a bill being proposed that would make it easier for unions to start up and leave companies little or no room to oppose this. You might want to look into this and call your rep and let it be known you oppose this bill. I'll try and find out more about this bill.

Call your rep? Are you kidding me? Have you ever tried to communicate with Carol Shea Porter? I have, and it's like talking to your pet snake. She's gotta be one of the densest people ever to represent this state, and she is deeply in the pocket of liberal thugs. There is no way she represents the citizens of this state, so don't get your hopes up there.

[sa meredith]

No unions???? Are you guys crazy? How can you possibly expect a worker to get by without 100 % paid medical coverage, 32 vacation days, 27 sick days, 20 hours guaranteed OT every week, 10 personal days, and an iron clad pension plan. Would never be able to get by....

[tis]

Originally Posted by This'nThat

Call your rep? Are you kidding me? Have you ever tried to communicate with Carol Shea Porter? I have, and it's like talking to your pet snake. She's gotta be one of the densest people ever to represent this state, and she is deeply in the pocket of liberal thugs. There is no way she represents the citizens of this state, so don't get your hopes up there.

I know you didn't mean that to be funny but it did strike me funny the way you said it. I understand your frustration though. They are all very much alike, all the politicians, although I have never called her. It is just amazing.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Belmont Resident

"...In the union your job security is based on seniority not job performance. What ever happened to an honest days pay for an honest days work..."

It does seem absurd to unionize a workforce that is already protected by Civil Service rules—Civil Service employees who are unlikely to ever be fired for any cause.

Originally Posted by Fatlazyless

"...I believe that one of the arguments in favor of unionization is that it allows for private, ballot booth, voting on a paper ballot, similar to how we vote for political candidates, as opposed to a public show of hands when voting work related issues..."

A private ballot is less likely in the next few years. It looks like your union boss will know exactly how you voted in a bill before Congress right now. It's called "The Employee Free Choice Act", but is anything but!

[This'nThat]

tis, here's one example of how Carol is in the hip pocket of liberal thugs. Remember the so-called Taunton River Wild & Scenic disignation legislation last year? Barney Frank wanted the entire river declared wild and scenic to prevent a LNG terminal from being built. Well, here's where the LNG terminal would have been built. Notice the fuel-storage tanks along the eastern shore, and the container ship piers. Carol went along with this -- not because it is wild and scenic, but because she doesn't want to incur the wrath of the environmentalists. I let her have it -- but she would rather endure the wrath of her constituents than people who have the power to replace her. Like I say -- she does not represent New Hampshire.

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

No unions???? Are you guys crazy? How can you possibly expect a worker to get by without 100 % paid medical coverage, 32 vacation days, 27 sick days, 20 hours guaranteed OT every week, 10 personal days, and an iron clad pension plan. Would never be able to get by....

The big problem is with the term worker. Once a union comes in, workers become less and less of the total paid workforce population. That's why the UAW has their jobs bank program in which laid-off workers continue to be paid most of their salaries for doing absolutely nothing.

[Pineedles]

OK, I have read all your posts and still have a question. Why, when the Pequot's casino dealers were asked if they wanted a union, did they respond with a significant majority saying yes? Oh yeah, all your posts were the reason. Better pay, benefits, etc, etc, etc.

So, is the greed on Wall Street, or in the lower/middle income strata?

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by Pineedles

OK, I have read all your posts and still have a question. Why, when the Pequot's casino dealers were asked if they wanted a union, did they respond with a significant majority saying yes? Oh yeah, all your posts were the reason. Better pay, benefits, etc, etc, etc.

So, is the greed on Wall Street, or in the lower/middle income strata?

I joined a union -- once. Good pay in the initial weeks. Then the job ended, and I went back to the union hall for another assignment. Stood in line behind a bunch of others who had senority, but much, much less ambition and talent. Lost a lot of money because of that. Finally just went out and found a non-union job, worked every day, and got increases in salary because of my productivity. Can't do that in a union job.

Not sure I can answer your questions. But, why do people let communists take over countries? Why do people get involved in Ponzi schemes? Why do we play Powerball? Human nature is human nature.

The observation we are making is that Unions destroy industry because their rules cause industry to become non-competitive. We see this everywhere, including the Government -- which is bloated and very, very expensive.

[M/V_Bear_II]

I don't disagree that there are unions in some industries that have become detrimental to the health of the industry, and have accumulated more power and benefits for their workers than some of those workers deserve.

That said, the need for unions is not obsolete. Unionization in the first half of the century addressed worker safety and security and provided fair wages. While working conditions are much safer and those wages could now justly be described as unfair to employers and non-union workers, industries that are not unionized provide some of the most shocking examples of worker mistreatment and complete disregard for worker safety in the civilized world. Read Fast Food Nation, including the descriptions of meatpacking and chicken-processing plants.

bilproject has the most reasonable response here. If a company or industry so totally disregards the welfare of its workers that on-the-job deaths are not just common but routine, it deserves to have to deal with those same bloated unions.

That said, I don't think the Town of Meredith has a lot of problems with on-the-job injuries or death. I don't think there's a good reason why 30 people can't get together and work with the town managers without bringing in representatives from across the country.

[fatlazyless]

Yesterday's Thursday, December 4, www.laconiadailysun.com had a long news report on the Meredith labor union negotiation held on Wednesday in Concord as well as work related history leading up to it. The New Hampshire Labor Relations Board heard from Meredith town managment and their attorneys, and the 32 employees of the Meredith Department of Public Works who were represented by the Service Workers International Union, local 1984.

Both sides agreed to not include in the proposed union the dpw director, the geographic information officer, and some other management person, maybe the water & sewer director, because they are either considered management, or are not in public works, or do work in the town hall building, or something.

The New Hampshire Labor Relations Board in Concord now has up to ninety days to think about this union start-up proposal that was presented by the 30 employees of the Town of Meredith DPW.

[Coastal Laker]

Originally Posted by M/V_Bear_II

I don't disagree that there are unions in some industries that have become detrimental to the health of the industry, and have accumulated more power and benefits for their workers than some of those workers deserve.

That said, the need for unions is not obsolete. Unionization in the first half of the century addressed worker safety and security and provided fair wages. While working conditions are much safer and those wages could now justly be described as unfair to employers and non-union workers, industries that are not unionized provide some of the most shocking examples of worker mistreatment and complete disregard for worker safety in the civilized world. Read Fast Food Nation, including the descriptions of meatpacking and chicken-processing plants.

bilproject has the most reasonable response here. If a company or industry so totally disregards the welfare of its workers that on-the-job deaths are not just common but routine, it deserves to have to deal with those same bloated unions.

That said, I don't think the Town of Meredith has a lot of problems with on-the-job injuries or death. I don't think there's a good reason why 30 people can't get together and work with the town managers without bringing in representatives from across the country.

During the industrial age, employee exploitation was quite literally out of control. The concepts we know and understand today that drive competitiveness in industry were completetly absent. We needed unions then. Employers took a long while to figure it out but many now "get it." Your best competitive edge comes from first providing a safe work environment, being fair to employees, paying competive wages and benefits, etc.

I agree completely that unhappy workers would be the ones to seek representation. It's sad that there are still companies out there that just don't get it and continue to operate in the dark ages. They got what was coming to them.

A sister company of mine is part union and part non-union. They work in the same safe work environment but the union group threatened to strike if they didn't get the level of benefits they wanted, including benefits for retirees. So their health benefits are better than their peers who chose not to be in the union. That actually drove up the cost of the medical benefits astronomically for all... since having different plans in the same health contract increases the administrative costs with the carriers, amongst other things. The union didn't much care about that. Their copays are still better than everyone else's. Never mind that their premiums are only 27% of the total cost and the company picks up the rest.

Additionally, and I could go on all day on this stuff, some of the union employees have even filed a grievance for being held accountable for shoddy work! You have no idea how unproductive something like that is. You end up with the employee, the representative, HR manager, and the employee's manager all wrapped up for hours discussing something as simple as an production employee not making rate or sleeping on the job.

I've been on both sides of the fence and will never work in a unionized company. In my line of work, I'd have to sit at the negotiating table and frankly couldn't stomach it. I'd rather eat spiders and wade in crap.

[donnamatrix]

An extremely well written statement. I agree.

[Beggaman Thief]

Unions are slowly loosing their members and stronghold over the years for all the obvious reasons stated above. With that being said, the only venues they have left to go after are the public sectors (Federal, State and Local) to organize workers. The biggest reason is these entities are not in business so to speak. If their expenses go up because of Union demands, no big deal – just raise our Taxes to cover it!

[bilproject]

Having a union enter the workplace is like having your kids hire a nanny and tell you to go through her if you want them to do anything. Meredith should not spend all their energy and resources on fighting the organization effort. It sounds like it is pretty far along. They should however, ask their employees for a cooling off period to discuss issues that have led to employees feeling they need an outside voice to speak for them. The town fathers might find that many of the issues can be resolved at little or no real dollar cost.
I would suggest a citzen advisory committee meet with both the workers and town and present a case to both parties together. The committee could be made up of towns people from labor and business. After they have a good feeling form both what each side finds good and bad about the other, the committee would report their findings to both sides at the same time.
Both sides would have to understand that this is an airing out of what they like as well as what they dislike about the relationship and work environment. The idea is to start a diologe that has definitly been missing. Things that can be fixed quickly should be done quickly and so on.
This approach has worked in many an organizing effort and preserved the employer-employee relationship. They need to remember that many of these employees are also their neighbors.
I don't think the town has anything to worry about on the wage issue at this stage. I could'nt think of a worst time in my 32 year in business of asking for anything new. In fact if Meredith DPW workers can maintain their current salary, most of their benefits and keep most of the workers working they will be doing great. The way I see the numbers most states, counties and local municipal governments will be faced with a 20-30% reduction in revenue. They will not just be able to raise taxes as they have in the past. Cuts are the only answer That stone is just about bled out! If Meredith thinks the second home market can absorb increases I would suggest they contact the shore communities on Long Beach Island here in NJ and ask them about all the 2-3mil dollar houses in forclosure, for sale, and up for tax auction.

[fatlazyless]

Meredith town employees seem to be pretty well insulated from the economic slow-down. Last March, on a warrant article at the late night, annual town meeting, brought forward by the police chief, the town voted for a 3% cost-of-living increase for all town employees. Basically, all those who were present voted a raise in pay for themselves. This was after the five town selectmen decided aganst supporting a similar 3% raise.

Just this past September, the selectmen unanimously agreed to purchase a new, built-to-order $725,000. aerial tower-fire truck, to go with the enlarged fire station. What ever happened to purchasing an older, used fire truck from a Boston suburb for much less money. I have to ask how much need is there for a brand new, aerial tower in Meredith? The Meredith fire dept is an on-call, volunteer fire dept.

Isn't is possible to locate a good used aerial tower from an urban town somewhere by searching the classified....if that works for the Ashlands, Plymouths, and Bristols of New Hampshire, then why not for Meredith, too?

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Just this past September, the selectmen unanimously agreed to purchase a new $725,000. aerial tower, fire truck, to go with the enlarged fire station. What ever happened to purchasing an older, used fire truck from a Boston suburb for much less money. I have to ask how much need is there for a brand new, aerial tower in Meredith? The Meredith fire dept is an on-call, volunteer fire dept.

What happened was Other Peoples Money. It's always easier to spend OPM vs your own. So what can you expect when the majority of your revenue comes from "rich land barons" (the "rich" are to be soaked in todays America) and most of them are from out of state (they are to be hung out to dry). Why not spend their $$s, who cares about being fair to "them" ? You are just collateral damage.

[wifi]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

.....Most other NH towns get their aerial towers used from craigslist....if that works for the Ashlands, Plymouths, and Bridgewaters of New Hampshire.....

From CraigsList? This is simply incorrect, inaccurate and misleading. Where did you get this data?

[fatlazyless]

ok,,,I have to agree with you that I made a stupid statement about most other NH towns purchasing fire trucks from craigslist. Probably, what with a Sam Adams beer, a lazyboy recliner-massager, and a web-tv...it's easy to get a little carried away....oopsie....my bad...and I apologize to the people who make the NH fire truck purchasing decisions.

Plus, I edited out my dopey comment to be more intelligent.

[SAMIAM]

FLL.....you just don't care about the children.......think how many hundreds of children will be saved with the new ladder.I think Meredith should have a helicopter available also.......and what about a fireboat to protect all of the shorline properties?

[momof3]

Well Gang...my husband is in a union. We are not rich, he does not make a lot of money for the experience he has(21 years worth) and up until three months ago we paid our own insurance premiums. His last union jod did not guarantee any job security since he ended up being laid off for 11 months, we went to being somewhat comfortable with our life style to living week to week. He has another job now, and we are thankful he is back to work, it is still union. His former company just called him and back but said "we can't guaratee for how long". Our insurance is now paid for 100%, yes a VERY nice perk, but there is no overtime, he has no vacation time until after 2 years and there is no sick time at all. He works hard, very hard, to provide for our family. I would like to have "37 days off a year", or whatever another forum member wrote. He will not have a vacation this year. However, let me state again we are very grateful he is working. My husband is a hard working man!
Just my two cents that not all union people are lazy looking for free money.

[tis]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

FLL.....you just don't care about the children.......think how many hundreds of children will be saved with the new ladder.I think Meredith should have a helicopter available also.......and what about a fireboat to protect all of the shorline properties?

I LOVE your post samiam. I hear ya'!

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by momof3

Just my two cents that not all union people are lazy looking for free money.

You're very correct. Nobody has mentioned the "other half" of union members, those like your husband who pay their union dues and get nothing for it.

In modern job markets in the US (we'll say the last 25 or so years) unions have existed solely to benefit the union organization and the upper echelons of the people who work for the actual union on "behalf" of the members.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by momof3

Well Gang...my husband is in a union. We are not rich, he does not make a lot of money for the experience he has(21 years worth) and up until three months ago we paid our own insurance premiums. His last union jod did not guarantee any job security since he ended up being laid off for 11 months, we went to being somewhat comfortable with our life style to living week to week. He has another job now, and we are thankful he is back to work, it is still union. His former company just called him and back but said "we can't guaratee for how long". Our insurance is now paid for 100%, yes a VERY nice perk, but there is no overtime, he has no vacation time until after 2 years and there is no sick time at all. He works hard, very hard, to provide for our family. I would like to have "37 days off a year", or whatever another forum member wrote. He will not have a vacation this year. However, let me state again we are very grateful he is working. My husband is a hard working man!
Just my two cents that not all union people are lazy looking for free money.

It's the attitude of the union leadership and the associated union structure.
Poor work ethics are protected.
Good work ethics are discouraged because it reflects badly on those who have poor work ethics.

People advance through longevity on the job rather than through learning more, improving quality of their work, and being more productive.

The business that pays their salary and benefits is the enemy.

Unions place demands on a business that are not justified by economic realities. Just because you WANT full insurance coverage doesn't mean that a company can afford it, even if you use your union clout to get it. Eventually the excess cost catches up with the company, especially in todays global economy where cheaper workers are available around the globe.

I'm sure your husband is a good worker but if the union tells him to dog it, he will, if he wants to keep working.

My comments are not aimed at the individual members but instead at the union philosophy and structure.

I wish your family well in these tough economic times.

[SAMIAM]

Once again,Jeffk nails it.You should be an editorial writer for the Citizen.Just wanted to say that my wife and I pay a whopping $1,600 per month for Anthem Blue Cross.If we were forced to pay for health bennifits for all of our employees it would put us out of business......instantly.No wonder the auto industry is going broke.

[PennyPenny]

Originally Posted by momof3

Well Gang...my husband is in a union. We are not rich, he does not make a lot of money for the experience he has(21 years worth) and up until three months ago we paid our own insurance premiums. His last union jod did not guarantee any job security since he ended up being laid off for 11 months, we went to being somewhat comfortable with our life style to living week to week. He has another job now, and we are thankful he is back to work, it is still union. His former company just called him and back but said "we can't guaratee for how long". Our insurance is now paid for 100%, yes a VERY nice perk, but there is no overtime, he has no vacation time until after 2 years and there is no sick time at all. He works hard, very hard, to provide for our family. I would like to have "37 days off a year", or whatever another forum member wrote. He will not have a vacation this year. However, let me state again we are very grateful he is working. My husband is a hard working man!
Just my two cents that not all union people are lazy looking for free money.

My husband is union employee as well, P&S local 131 out of Hooksett,NH. I am sure you understand that they go where the work is and deal with what is offered. My husbands union is self-insured but managed by Anthem BC/BS A little over $6.00 an hour goes into the insurance fund. If he works 40 hours or he works 80 hours, it comes out of his check period. He is paying for medical benefits for people who have been retired for years. Just the way it works. Hopefully, his time will be compensated in later years through the next generation. Fotunately he is on a job in Devons, Mass right now and working 5 10's and 2 8's. He is away from home,living in a motel but he is working and making the money to bank and float us through the winter. He does not get any paid vacations either. You don't work, you don't get paid. My jusband is a very hard working,educated, dedicated employee as well. My husband is not lazy either. He works and sacrifices his time traveling,hoidays,birrthdays etc. for his family. i am glad someone else on here spoke up and I could add my 2 cents as well. Most people don't understand what a union actually is until you live with it. It is not all perks and benefits. Gotta love the overtime when he works at nuclear power plants for outages. Some people would curl up and die if they knew how much money is paid out! A big fat paycheck for 1 week pays our bills for the month. The rest is banked for the few months he isn't working.

[PennyPenny]

"where cheaper workers are available around the globe." A Union is a work force of man power. When Seabrook Station, Diablo Canyon, Vermont Yankee, DC Cook.Shillings Power,A/B Budwiser,Wentworth Douglas Hospital etc needs anywhere from 50-1000 trained,licenced,drug free people to come in on a days notice where or who do you suggest they call? They make call out to a Union hall and it starts the ball rolling. Call a master electrician or plumber and see how much they charge an hour. They don't, they caharge by the job. They get every nickle they can squeeze out of you that you are willing to pay and is is way more then an average union member makes an hour.

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

my wife and I pay a whopping $1,600 per month for Anthem Blue Cross.

There are lots of reasons for that. One is the enormous costs of illegal aliens. See here, and here about the cost and health care destruction going on in California. Here's an article on The federal Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) which is a big cause of this. The American Hospital Association put the illegal alien health care tab at $21 billion several years ago. But in spite of this, there are a lot of people out there who say leave them alone, and actively encourage even more free health care to illegal non-citizens.

That's not the whole story of course -- but it is a significant factor in what we, the U.S. citizens, have to pay. We aren't just paying for our health care -- we're paying for a lot of other people, too.

[Irish mist]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Once again,Jeffk nails it.You should be an editorial writer for the Citizen.Just wanted to say that my wife and I pay a whopping $1,600 per month for Anthem Blue Cross.If we were forced to pay for health bennifits for all of our employees it would put us out of business......instantly.No wonder the auto industry is going broke.

Dude......I pay under $300 a month to Anthem Blue Cross. You better check with a local insurance agent to see just what policy you guys are on. Anthem has/had an old policy that they sold to people years ago that was very high. When they changed the system over to purchasing from insurance agents only instead of buying straight from the company those new policies were/are, a lot cheaper.

What they don't do is inform people that purchased the old policies that they are paying at a different, higher rate. It's legal, but unethical IMO. If this is not your situation perhaps you could do what I do and get the high $5,000 deductable policy. It cuts costs. Whatever......your policy sounds too high from what I see on their web-site.

I went the the NH Anthem web-site and punched in a couple: male/female. Age 50s. I did 50s cause I don't know your age. Anyway, with a $5,000 deductable It came up as about $634 per month. About $1000 dollars less a month than you are paying now ! Methinks you have the old policy ??? Either way I would check this out if I were you guys.
________
Getrag

[fatlazyless]

Here's a very simple solution...everyone, including myself...should all be so fortunate to get themself a job working for the Town of Meredith. Working for the town, either in the pending, 30-employee, dept public works union or in a nonunion job like administration or police, you get paid very well, along wih cost-of-living raises, health insurance and dental insurance with no self co-pays, access to the community center gym and high, artificial rock-climbing wall and some other good stuff that I don't know about.

About the only requirement is that you and your spouse show up to the annual March town meeting so you can vote yourself another annual raise. It's basically like the annual town employees party and get together. There is no problem getting employees to the meeting.

In the November presidential elections, Meredith voted McCain 1857, and Obama 1964, for a total of 3821 votes cast. At the March town meeting, held at the end of the meeting at about 11:30pm the vote for the pay raise was probably something like 165 yea, and 88 nay, for a total of 253 votes cast. And, the town meeting vote is initially done by a show of hands.

And the town already has a fire boat but does not have a helicopter... The fire boat is like a twenty year(?) old fiberglass, 28' cabin-utility equipped w/ a pump and hoses, and water power-spray, powered by two, much newer Suzuki four-stroke outboards, and kept moored and ready to go, close to Bear Island. It has a flashing red light on top. and volunteer firefighters who train and train and train to use it.

[SAMIAM]

Thanks for the tip.Irish mist....will definately check it out.And,FLL forgot something.Don't town employees get something like 75% of their pay for lifetime retirement as well as paid health and dental? Lets all work a little harder....they'll probably be voting themselves a new raise next year.

[momof3]

Just to add another two cents, if I may....Again we really appreciate the huge perk of the health insurance through the union, trust me when i say I knwo how lucky we are, however; please know that I work part time at a non-profit,non-union company, all full time employess that work there get full health and dental 100% company paid. There are some companies that sill offer this without a union being involved.

[Sunrise Point]

I agree with Bilproject that it is possible that when people decide to unionize, it is possibly because "management has not met their needs". After being home for 19 years raising a family and volunteering in the local schools, I began to work (for $$$, what a concept!) in the local school system. I love the students, the teachers and my schedule.

My favorite saying to my first boss was "don't tell the union" whenever something unusual was required. I had the best job ever, I learned basic taxidermy, how to solder wiring, operate a drill press, table saw, band saw and even drove a tractor with a "brush-hog" to clear an overgrown field. None of this would have been possible with a "that's not my job" attitude. I am grateful for all of the things that I learned.

Due to budget cuts, my original job was cut 1-1/2 years ago. I applied for other available jobs within the system. I ended up working in the high school library (the director remembered me from my volunteering years) and even though it doesn't involve wiring, saws or drills, it has been a teriffic job. I now work with students, computers and processing books What do I do? I am a secretary.

Last spring, more budget cuts were announced. Two secretarial positions were to be eliminated at the high school, and all secretaries would become part of a "pool" and be assigned jobs accordingly. There would be no more departmental secretaries. The town paid somewhere between $30,000 and $50,000 for a "study" to tell them how jobs should be classified, what rates to pay people, etc.

I lost all faith in the current administration and joined the union. Will I "dog it" if the union tells me to? NO! I would not do that to the students and my co-workers, but I felt that I had to protect myself and any hope of retirement in the next 5 - 10 years.

I wish it wasn't so.....and I'm a taxpayer too.

[fatlazyless]

www.fentonfire.com, located in Hudson, Quibec, has a whole section full of used aerial tower fire trucks. Why not save the town $675,000 and get a good used one for like $50,000. How many New Hampshire towns go out and purchase a brand new $725,000 aerial tower, when there's used ones available. Fire trucks are typically very well maintained....diesel engines last a very long time when maintained.

I drive a 1999 Ford Contour that cost me $1500, and it runs terrific....even the ac works good. The Meredith Fire dept needs a $725,000 fire truck.....may God or somebody out there please save the poor Meredith property tax payer! Most all small towns buy used truck equipment and let the big cities with the real busy fire depts spend the big bucks.

[wifi]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

... Most all small towns buy used truck equipment

Change 'Most' to 'Many' and we might be a little closer to reality.

[Woodsy]

FLL...

There is usally a reason towns trade in and usually dont buy used fire equipment.... because its worn out!

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

FLL...

There is usally a reason towns trade in and usually dont buy used fire equipment.... because its worn out!

Yes, but FLL is never one to let facts get in the way of a good thread hijack or rant

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

FLL...

There is usally a reason towns trade in and usually dont buy used fire equipment.... because its worn out!

Woodsy,

Perhaps if you buy a used piece of fire apparatus from NYC it will be worn out- but if you buy something 10 years old or less from a suburb that needed to go higher, it is certainly an option. I will go out on a limb and say the only departments in a town like Meredith that wear out vehicles are the PD and DPW.

Back when I was a contractor, I used to love buying retired street sweepers from state auctions. Where else could I buy a 125K machine for 5K, spend 2-5K replacing some parts and painting, then put it out for 2 months a year for 60K in revenue! What a country.

[Woodsy]

VitaBene...

While it might sound like a good idea... there is a huge difference between a streetsweeper (non-critical capital equipment) and a fire truck (life-critical capital equipment)! Can you imagine the lawsuit if someone dies because the used firetruck the town bought broke down at a critical time?

Fire trucks may look excellent on the outside but be completely worn out internally.... the high pressure pumps and plumbing start to fail, the tanks rust out, the suspension is shot etc etc. All of these are BIG $$$ repairs with very little return on the repair investment.

Most cities and towns here in the US are very budget minded. Due to the high cost of purchasing a new fire truck, the only time a capital piece of fire equipment gets traded is usually when it is completely worn out. Very very rarely does a city or town just trade in a perfectly good fire truck for an upgrade. In fact due to budget constraints alot of the preventative maintenance that would extend the life of a fire truck is skipped altogether, hastening its replacement. Definitely a pennywise and pound foolish way of doing things, but most cities & towns use the "If ain't broke, don't fix it" axiom.

I dont know if Meredith really needed a $750K Aerial Ladder or not, thats for the townsfolk to decide. No doubt for $750K it was optioned up. If I were a Meredith resident, I would be looking to see if the fire dept/seletmen pursued any federal grants or monies available to help mitigate the cost.

Woodsy

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

VitaBene...

While it might sound like a good idea... there is a huge difference between a streetsweeper (non-critical capital equipment) and a fire truck (life-critical capital equipment)! Can you imagine the lawsuit if someone dies because the used firetruck the town bought broke down at a critical time?

Fire trucks may look excellent on the outside but be completely worn out internally.... the high pressure pumps and plumbing start to fail, the tanks rust out, the suspension is shot etc etc. All of these are BIG $$$ repairs with very little return on the repair investment.

Most cities and towns here in the US are very budget minded. Due to the high cost of purchasing a new fire truck, the only time a capital piece of fire equipment gets traded is usually when it is completely worn out. Very very rarely does a city or town just trade in a perfectly good fire truck for an upgrade. In fact due to budget constraints alot of the preventative maintenance that would extend the life of a fire truck is skipped altogether, hastening its replacement. Definitely a pennywise and pound foolish way of doing things, but most cities & towns use the "If ain't broke, don't fix it" axiom.

I dont know if Meredith really needed a $750K Aerial Ladder or not, thats for the townsfolk to decide. No doubt for $750K it was optioned up. If I were a Meredith resident, I would be looking to see if the fire dept/seletmen pursued any federal grants or monies available to help mitigate the cost.

Woodsy

Woodsy, you make good points- thanks! I think you hit on the correct issue- the need for the rig. I don't know- I am in Moultonborough. It just seems like a lot of $$ for Meredith to spend on a very limited duty item.

[fatlazyless]

Spending other people's money.....Meredith, NH....off the top of my head.....in the last six years....Meredith has built.....first, a 4.5 million dollar community center......second, a 2.5 million dollar police station....and third, from March -December 2008, a 2.2 million dollar fire station, major enlargement.

Considering that the brand new fire station created a couple of new, large, garage bays, purchasing a new large aerial tower was probably a 'quid pro quo' for the four out of five selectmen who unanimously voted for it in September, 2008.

Do you think there was any chance that they even took a look at a used vehicle like at www.fentonfire.com, located in Quibec, when considering their $725,000 new, built-to-order purchase from www.piercemfg.com in Wisconsin?

All the expensive buildings were voted on by the town at the late night, March town meeting by about 300 residents by show of hands (175yea-125nay) which is about eight percent of the number of voters that showed up for the all-day, 7am-7pm, presidential ballot voting (1857 McCain - 1964 Obama) for a total of 3821.

Like, so whatever happened to our reasonable right to vote, right here in Meredith, NH?

[wifi]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

....Whatever happened to our reasonable right to vote, right here in Meredith, NH?

All one needed to do was to attend the meeting and vote against it. Some of this group didn't even have to work the next day

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Spending other people's money.....Meredith, NH....off the top of my head.....in the last six years....Meredith has built.....first, a 4.5 million dollar community center......second, a 2.5 million dollar police station....and third, from March -December 2008, a 2.2 million dollar fire station, major enlargement.

Considering that the brand new fire station created a couple of new, large, garage bays, purchasing a new large aerial tower was probably a 'quid pro quo' for the four out of five selectmen who unanimously voted for it in September, 2008.

Do you think there was any chance that they even took a look at a used vehicle like at www.fentonfire.com, located in Quibec, when considering their $725,000 new, built-to-order purchase from www.piercemfg.com in Wisconsin?

All the expensive buildings were voted on by the town at the late night, March town meeting by about 300 residents by show of hands (175yea-125nay) which is about eight percent of the number of voters that showed up for the all-day, 7am-7pm, presidential ballot voting (1857 McCain - 1964 Obama) for a total of 3821.

Like, so whatever happened to our reasonable right to vote, right here in Meredith, NH?

Dude, seriously, you need a hobby.

[Pineedles]

Wi-Fi and BrK-Int, I think you need to cut FLL a little slack. Are either of you Meredith residents. I work mostly 9-9 as a business owner and I like to stay on top of what my town council is voting on, but sometimes it is not possible. Here in our town, there is a general election vote on any issue costing the town more than a million $$. If Meredith's town meeting can pass on issues like the above perhaps the electorate should push for a change to the town charter to require a general election vote?

[SAMIAM]

I don't always agree with FLL....but he's right about this issue.Small towns simply stack late night town meetings with those people with special interests.They vote more and more for themselves.....at taxpayers expense.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Pineedles

Wi-Fi and BrK-Int, I think you need to cut FLL a little slack.

While the city might possibly have been able to shave a few thousand dollars off of the aerial truck purchase, I can pretty much guarantee that they could not have substituted a $75,000 used vehicle for a $725,000 new vehicle. To continuously suggest that such an option was even a remotely logical possibility is just silly.

[wifi]

Didn't the town meeting on his happen last March?

Yes, I can agree that a town meeting can't be scheduled to be convenient for everyone. SB2 helps to address it. This is where the drum beat should be, not on the constant whining of an event 8 months ago.

[fatlazyless]

The vote for the aerial tower fire truck took place in September 2008 at a selectman's regular, monthly meeting. Four out of five selectman voted yes, and the fifth was not present to vote because he was on a motorcycle vacation in Indiana. Had he been there, he too would probably have voted yes with both hands.

The Laconia Daily Sun has pretty detailed news reports, and that's where I get my info, mostly.

All three buildings, community center, police & fire, were voted yes by a show of voter hands at the annual March town meeting. After a show of hands, someone always asks for a hand count, just for the record.

[jeffk]

...of your own thread FLL. Unions to firetrucks and all things town government. Very smooth. All we need is a few Judd Gregg comments and we are all set.

[fatlazyless]

Hey JeffK,,,the NH Labor Relations Board in Concord heard, about one week ago, the presentations from the two groups; the 30 employees of the Meredith Dept Public Works and their S.W.I.U. representative and the town management and their attorneys. The state board has up to 90 days to think it over before issuing its' decision with regard to the possible start-up of a new labor union representation.

About 15000 State of NH employees belong to a union while about 5000 do not. I do not know if the state's most visible employees, the NH State Police belong to a union? Next time I get stopped for a driving violation, I'll ask the trooper if they have a union and if it's a good thing or not.

[wifi]

I must say, this last post got me laughing out loud

Now, what is the definition of a non sequitur again ? ....