Alton Bay Boathouse Collapse?

[riverat]

Friend of mine took this picture this afternoon, across the bay from the boat launch.

[tis]

Was that the one that looked like it was ready to fall in? We talked about it last time we rode to Alton Bay, I think about two weeks ago, one of those nice days.

[bigRazor]

Is there a boat under that?

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by tis

Was that the one that looked like it was ready to fall in? We talked about it last time we rode to Alton Bay, I think about two weeks ago, one of those nice days.

I think the one you're thinking about is further up 28A. We were remarking just last weekend that it appeared about to collapse. The one in this post, I think, was redone to look like the house across the street just a couple of years ago. Musta paid more attention to the cosmetic than to the structural details. Perhaps there was a hidden rotted timber that couldn't support the weight of the new roof.

[tis]

Oh, thanks for the info Mee-what a shame to have it redone and have that happen! Too bad they didn't fix the structural problems if that was the case! I was trying to picture exactly what one it was. I think they better work on the other one before they lose that, don't you? We were saying that they don't know what a treasure it is to have a boathouse because to try to get a permit is so hard and so discouraging that most people don't want to attempt it these days. You have to really want one! A couple of years ago they tried to stop boathouses altogether but it wasn't approved , however I wouldn't be surprised if the day comes when they are no longer allowed. And I think it is a shame because they are so unique and such a part of the lake and the fish and animals love them! I don't know why they think they do so much harm. (off soapbox!)
But I do love all those boathouses in Alton Bay! They are eye candy to me!

[Irrigation Guy]

That roof doesn't look that new to me. Maybe I'm mistaken but the shingles on the front look like they were replaced at a different time than those on the sides.

[LIforrelaxin]

Well this is certainly horrible... and I am sure the owners are having to deal with a lot... now be it that this was redone and structural issue where not taken care of properly or just age caught up with the structure, it really doesn't matter. However what this brings up in my mind, is the cost and paper work required to work on these structures.

This is where are the new rules and regulations, along with the cost of hiring contractors really catch up. If the structure needed repairs permits, to many permits and approvals in my mind need to be dealt with. And then comes the expense of hiring a contractor to do the work if one can't do it on their own. Which leads down the road of structures like this getting into bad shape and falling into the water. there are Many Many boat house I wonder from year to year if they will make it through another winter.

The problem people can't afford the repairs, and the cost of getting the permits, which is a shame.... and over time I think we will see similar incidents in other areas of the lake.

[AC2717]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Well this is certainly horrible... and I am sure the owners are having to deal with a lot... now be it that this was redone and structural issue where not taken care of properly or just age caught up with the structure, it really doesn't matter. However what this brings up in my mind, is the cost and paper work required to work on these structures.

This is where are the new rules and regulations, along with the cost of hiring contractors really catch up. If the structure needed repairs permits, to many permits and approvals in my mind need to be dealt with. And then comes the expense of hiring a contractor to do the work if one can't do it on their own. Which leads down the road of structures like this getting into bad shape and falling into the water. there are Many Many boat house I wonder from year to year if they will make it through another winter.

The problem people can't afford the repairs, and the cost of getting the permits, which is a shame.... and over time I think we will see similar incidents in other areas of the lake.

Do not forget that this is something you carry insurance for!

[eyenotall777]

If I recall correctly - I had heard about a month ago that this particular boat house was in the process of getting approvals for construction to begin. Last weekend I drove by down Rt 11 side and the boat house was still standing. You could see the orange barrier already set up (as seen the in pic) so they were probably preparing for the beginning of construction

[ApS]

Originally Posted by LocalRealtor

That roof doesn't look that new to me. Maybe I'm mistaken but the shingles on the front look like they were replaced at a different time than those on the sides.

I believe those new shingles were in the process of being put on at the time of the collapse.

Everything was going fine until the unlicensed roofer halted his labors to do some roof top push-ups.

[tis]

OH NO! , FLL was the roofer? Those push ups will do ya' in every time!

[Irrigation Guy]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

I believe those new shingles were in the process of being put on at the time of the collapse.

Everything was going fine until the unlicensed roofer halted his labors to do some push-ups.

I doubt those new shingles(the dark ones) were being put on. If you look at the edges you can see the lighter colored ones are wrapped over the darker ones like roof cap shingles. So the dark ones were there when the lighter colored ones were put onem but if you were puting on a new roof you wouldn't put the caps on without replacing the lake side darker ones first. I guess they didn't care when the put those new shingles on.

Lastly, I don't think going over and not stripping the roof would be a good idea, with all the weight an added layer of shingle would add. Maybe this is why it collapsed?

[Lakesrider]

I too drove by this the other day. I remember thinking that it was about time they tore it down as the lower section looked very rotted out, and unsafe. I mean it looked liked it was sinking or something. At least from the road. I thought it was coming down on it's own. I didn't know it had collapsed at the time. Too bad for the owners. as stated I'll bet it is going to be fun getting it replaced. But I'll bet it is grandfathered in and not too many will opposed its replacement.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Another post reminded me of this one. The fallen boathouse has been removed (actually it was done PDQ after it collapsed) and a floating booms set around it's base. It wasn't the one I was thinking about. As LocalRealtor mentioned that (refurbed) one was down a few from the collapsed one as can be seen (the yellow boathouse) in the pic below. The one Tis mentioned is in the other pic below and looks like it's about to cave in ....

[tis]

We went to AB Sunday, Mee and saw the boathouse all cleaned up and the booms around the base. As you said, it was the other one we had seen before. I really think the owners should do something with it before they lose it. Maybe they are trying to get a permit and it does take forever-that could be the issue. Or maybe they just don't care, but they don't know what they are giving up if they just let it go.

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by AC2717

Do not forget that this is something you carry insurance for!

Insurance won't cover rot.

[AC2717]

Originally Posted by NightWing

Insurance won't cover rot.

I do not know why, if this is the case, that someone would not purchase insurance for their boathouse, I know I would, especially in the area we are in.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by AC2717

I do not know why, if this is the case, that someone would not purchase insurance for their boathouse, I know I would, especially in the area we are in.

Originally Posted by NightWing

Insurance won't cover rot.

Nightwing is right, I can't imagine an unsurance cover replacing a boat house, after it down do to neglect.

Now what I can imagine, is that they may pay for the cleanup possibly in the case of a colapse as long as it wasn't do to neglect..... or more definately damage as the result of a tree landing on it, or you neighber crashing into it, or even is a friend falls into the water off of it and hurts his back....

[AC2717]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Nightwing is right, I can't imagine an unsurance cover replacing a boat house, after it down do to neglect.

Now what I can imagine, is that they may pay for the cleanup possibly in the case of a colapse as long as it wasn't do to neglect..... or more definately damage as the result of a tree landing on it, or you neighber crashing into it, or even is a friend falls into the water off of it and hurts his back....

I am in the business, trust me if they had it insured there would be some fight back, but there would be a deal struck on it

[Mee-n-Mac]

I wish I had the camera handy but I didn't so this will have to suffice. There's a barge now (started last week I believe) dredging up all (some of ?) the old below water remnants. Looks like they're going to replace with all new construction from the bottom (or nearly) up ! Good to see that whatever new rules apply haven't slowed the works to a complete standstill.

[jmen24]

The boathouse would be under the wetlands permiting process and not the new CSPA, so the rules have not changed as the wetlands permit trumps the CSPA in a case of overlap in zones. Still not a painless process but not as bad as you think. In the case of a rehab on an existing structure it is even easier than attempting new.

I would think that the insurance would pay for some if not all of the replacement. We do about 4-5 insurance repairs a year and we just did one that the owners poorly built second story deck tore off (and through; long story) the house due to not be shoveled clear of snow and the insurance paid for the whole thing. That is neglect over a short time and there was some serious oversight on the design of the deck.

[gtxrider]

Every time a pass this boat house I wonder how it is still standing? It seems if a bird landed on the roof this place would come crashing down.

Was it part of the Oak Birch?

[MeEscape]

It is next door, but a separate lot and ownership.

[Onshore]

Either of the boathouses in question here could be completely removed and replaced in kind using either the Permit by Notification process or a Minimum Impact Expedited Application process. If the support structures are solid you can replace everything from the stringers up, in kind, with out a permit. This is of course only the state level permit from DES and you need to check with your town for any local permit requirements. The attachments, info, and cost($200) for both the Expedited Application and Permit by Notification are identical. The Permit by Notification process is allegedly quicker but I'm not sure it actually works out that way. The advantage of the Expedited process is that you get an actual permit back that you can record at the registry to help establish the legal staus of the structure if you ever want to sell it and that you can post on site so that anyone who cares to look can confirm that you have one. Permits are valid for 5 years.

[Rattlesnake Gal]

Will this Alton Bay boathouse survive the winter?

I sure hope that people are staying out of this death trap!

Originally Posted by riverat

Friend of mine took this picture this afternoon, across the bay from the boat launch.

Or will it suffer the same fate as this other Alton Bay boathouse?

[Rattlesnake Gal]

The side view of the same boathouse doesn't seem quite so dilapidated.

At what point would the town step in and condemn a structure like this?

[LIforrelaxin]

It is sad to see so many of these structures fall into such a state of disrepair. Unfortunately with all the regulations that are in place the State of NH and DES have brought it on themselves. People or to nervous to make minor repairs any more. Which is great for companies like Water Mark etc. However those companies are so busy, that the time line to get work done is often long. Of course because of permitting and the attitude of you should do it all at once because of the permitting process, doing the upkeep all at once becomes very costly. The state needs to give a little, and make the laws a little more flexible so that people start to feel like they can do the year to year up keep on boat houses with out fear of fines. Unfortunately the way the laws are written and the way the are publicised they generate fear where there shouldn't be any.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

It is sad to see so many of these structures fall into such a state of disrepair. Unfortunately with all the regulations that are in place the State of NH and DES have brought it on themselves. People or to nervous to make minor repairs any more. Which is great for companies like Water Mark etc. However those companies are so busy, that the time line to get work done is often long. Of course because of permitting and the attitude of you should do it all at once because of the permitting process, doing the upkeep all at once becomes very costly. The state needs to give a little, and make the laws a little more flexible so that people start to feel like they can do the year to year up keep on boat houses with out fear of fines. Unfortunately the way the laws are written and the way the are publicised they generate fear where there shouldn't be any.

What permits need to be filed to do maintenance to a structure like this? If the owners had kept up with repairs they would not be in this position, with a boathouse that will more than likely fail this winter. It is hard to tell from the photo if that is just trim that is broken or if the header has snapped, if it is the header than that hip will not support the weight of snow this winter. Hope the insurance is paid up.

Just an FYI, you do not need Watermark to perform repairs or replacements of boathouses, I am not sure about the branch of the company that handles Winni, but on Sunapee they really only do docks. Repairs and replacements to boathouses do not even fall in the CSPA, it is wetlands. People need to stop listening to their neighbors and friends regarding CSPA, sign up for a seminar or call Toby at DES and ask your questions. As a contractor I can tell you that it is now easier to do work around the water than it was before, any contractor worth his salt is going to walk you through the permiting process the entire way. The only thing we require of any of our home owners is a signature, we handle all aspects of permitting and tell you what you can and cannot do only after a review by the permitting official. You will never know if you do not ask and I think you would be quite surprised at how easy it is to get additions approved even in non-conforming lots. Did you know that if you put up an addition on an existing structure, you only have to deal with the impact of the addition on water runnoff.

If you are looking to building a huge house on a tiny lot, well you are probably out of luck, but IMHO that is OK. We have had people walk in our door with these fantastic plans for houses on waterfront lots that they paid alot of money to have drawn, only to find out that the house cannot be made to work in CSPA without a complete redesign. Then the owners are all bent out of shape because they cannot build the house that they designed and it is everyone else fault, but a little research in the beginning would have saved them alot of money and aggrevation and they still would have been able to build a house that they truely loved. It doesn't take much to make a house conforming, but waiting until the plans are set in stone is not the time to be finding this out.

[Gearhead]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Gal

Will this Alton Bay boathouse survive the winter?

I sure hope that people are staying out of this death trap!



Or will it suffer the same fate as this other Alton Bay boathouse?

It's been like this for at least the last couple of years. I thought for sure it'd be gone two years ago with all that snow we got, and then last Winter I thought the same thing, but now I think it's going to be around for a while.

I know the owners and they are great people. They don't have a boat, so they probably figure the next owners can spend the cash to fix it when they move on.

Maybe I'll pay them a visit and ask to take a couple of pictures of the inside of the roof. If the header really is gone, I'd like to do a free-body diagram of the roof structure to see what on earth is holding it up, even with six feet of snow on it.

[Onshore]

If you can, take a real good look at the supports under the structure. If the supports are in need of repair, then they can be repaired with either a Permit by Notification or a permit obtained through the Expedited or Standard Application processes through DES.

If the supports in the water are sound and only the portion above the water level need to be replaced then you can replace everything above the water, in kind, without a permit from the state. I would strongly recommend taking before and after photos. That way, if anyone calls to complain, you can just show DES the photos and save everyone a great deal of time. "In kind" means all the dimensions stay the same. Changes in construction materials are not an issue of concern. The addition of things like windows, shutters, doors, and flowers boxes are also not issues of concern. Adding things like dormers, cupolas, or second floors is definately a problem.

If you can let the structure freeze in during the lake it can be helpful because you don't need to worry so much about debris getting in the lake. You can clean up anything that falls off the ice after.

One last thing, there is no one named "Toby" here in Wetlands or Shoreland. We have a "Jay Aube", pronounced "Obi", but no "Toby".

[Rattlesnake Gal]

After a closer look, this Alton Bay boathouse may not be as bad off as it looks. Maybe it is just cosmetic? I really hope that is the case! The decks around it don't look so hot though.

[shamrock]

I don't Rattlesnake Gal, I would not want my boat there !

[IslandRadio]

I was talking with John over at Island Real Estate a while back about a case on the North-East side of the lake across from Rattlesnake, where a fire destroyed a boathouse, the owners rebuilt it (some very wealthy family - forget the name off hand), and were ultimately required to TAKE IT DOWN after a protracted court fight.

This was (apparently) due to some waterfront protection regulation that you cannot rebuild from a total loss.

I do not have first hand information about this, just reporting what I was told. John appears to know quite a lot about this sort of thing.

There may have been extenuating circumstances in the case that John was citing that may not be applicable to the boathouse in Alton.

Anyone know any more about this?

Regards,

Steve

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by shore things

One last thing, there is no one named "Toby" here in Wetlands or Shoreland. We have a "Jay Aube", pronounced "Obi", but no "Toby".

Perhaps I am remembering the name wrong. A year ago or so I was at one of the seminars in West Leb., one of the speakers names was I thought "Toby". He was hired into DES just to answer phone calls regarding questions about CSPA.

Maybe I am confusing the first and last name, it has been a while.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by IslandRadio

I was talking with John over at Island Real Estate a while back about a case on the North-East side of the lake across from Rattlesnake, where a fire destroyed a boathouse, the owners rebuilt it (some very wealthy family - forget the name off hand), and were ultimately required to TAKE IT DOWN after a protracted court fight.

This was (apparently) due to some waterfront protection regulation that you cannot rebuild from a total loss.

I do not have first hand information about this, just reporting what I was told. John appears to know quite a lot about this sort of thing.

There may have been extenuating circumstances in the case that John was citing that may not be applicable to the boathouse in Alton.

Anyone know any more about this?

Regards,

Steve

I believe you are referring to one of the Marriott boathouses. As I recall they got caught trying to rebuild with living quarters up above ( not allowed) and also a question of getting the proper permit. Certainly there are others who remember the situation better.

[tis]

I think maybe two stories are getting mixed up. Bill Marriott was fueling his boat and caught his boathouse one fire. The boathouse was right next to Brophy's boathouse and caught their boathouse one fire. They had to be rebuilt.

The other boathouse of Marriott's which was in a several year lawsuit with the state was remodeled, nothing to do with the fire. They took out a boatslip and made it part of the living quarters (part of the kitchen) and that was the issue along with some wetlands issues. Because the boathouse had previously been living quarters ( for the chauffeur), there wasn't a problem with remodeling it, but they could not expand it. They lost to the state and had to tear out the kitchen.

[Gearhead]

I drove by that delapidated old boathouse yesterday, and there's an excavator out there, removing the deck on the right side. Go figure! I hope they're going to rebuild it and not just take it down.

[John A. Birdsall]

I watched that boat house go into disrepair, but worst of all there was a varnished boat in that boat house, up out of the water and it was that way perhaps for five years without going in the water. I think it was taken out about two years ago. Not sure though.

[Just Sold]

Took a drive up to the lake today. Better than Black Friday shopping!

The boat house over by where the Oak Birch Inn site is was being worked on by Docks Unlimited. My guess is that they are stabilizing the structure and repairing the under pinnings. They are using very large square wood blocks and I saw one under a front corner of the boat house. The blocks look like old mill building beams that have been cut for the job. There was a pile of them on the street side of the boat house. Could be they will be raising it at some point? The lake is lower than when seen in the photo RG posted (post #31 in this thread) of this boat house which should make it easier to work on.

BTW this boat house has a stone foundation under 1/3 to 1/2 of the structure from the shore. Could be there is more stone foundation but I could not see it. That could be one reason that it has not fallen into the lake.

I posted 2 Photos: http://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopo...hp?photo=15793
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopo...hp?photo=15792

[Just Sold]

I was in Alton Bay on 1/1 and the boat house over by where the Oak Birch Inn was now has new docks on both sides and the waterside opening has been repaired, no more sagging center trim. Maybe in the spring they will paint or side the building.
It was too late in the day to take a picture. Maybe the next time I am up or someone else is in the area will take one.