question on swim area buoys

BeaverIslandGuy · 07-28-2009, 01:06 PM

Hi all. Just got up for summer vacation. Yea!!

A question on swim area bouys. Posting here as it affects boaters.

Under what circumstances, if any, could I put out a swim area buoy? This is an "standard" white buoy with swimming area markings that would be anchored to the bottom. Ideally, I would like to put out about 100 ft from shore as the jet skiers keep cutting to close to our point and endangering the swimmers. (yes, I know they are breaking the 150 ft rule, but they either don't know, can't judge distance, or (most likely) really don't care).

Is a permit required? If so, by whom and how/where to I apply?

Thanks

Lakepilot · 07-28-2009, 05:00 PM

Mitt Romney did that in Wolfeboro, but was told he couldn't. He didn't own the lake.

BeaverIslandGuy · 07-28-2009, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakepilot

Mitt Romney did that in Wolfeboro, but was told he couldn't. He didn't own the lake.

Thank you for such a nice sarcastic reply. I really don't think I am wrong to want to enjoy our waterfront without my 4 year old being run down. I am not saying that people can't come close, as I don't own the lake (to your point). I would just like to post a safety warning to those that chose to come close at 20+ mph.

And, unlike Romney (apparently), I have inquired if I may do so, if permits are required, how to apply for one, etc. I don't see this much different than asking how to put out a mooring (which I do know how to do).

Airwaves · 07-28-2009, 06:56 PM

You will need to get a permit from the state prior to setting out a swim line:

Quote:

270:26 Injuring Buoys, Placing Obstructions. –
I. Any person who knowingly removes, destroys, moves, or injures any buoy, beacon, or other navigational aid placed in, on, or adjacent to any of the public waters of the state for the purpose of guiding and protecting navigation and boating thereon shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
II. Any person who knowingly places an obstruction dangerous to navigation in any of the public waters of the state without reasonable precaution to protect the public from such obstruction shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
III. Any person who shall moor or make fast a boat, vessel, raft, or float of any description to a buoy, beacon, or other navigational aid placed in, on, or adjacent to the public waters of the state shall be guilty of a violation.
IV. (a) Any person who knowingly places a swim line in any public body of water without first obtaining a permit issued by the director of safety services shall be guilty of a violation.
(b) Any person who operates a boat within any permitted swim line on any public body of water without the permission of the permittee shall be guilty of a violation.
(c) The commissioner is authorized to establish fees and expiration periods for permits issued under subparagraph (a). The fee for a permit shall not be greater than $50 and all permits shall expire no later than 5 years after the date of issuance. All fees collected under this paragraph shall be deposited in the navigation safety fund established under RSA 270-E:6-a.

jrc · 07-28-2009, 08:27 PM

Here are the rules:

Saf-C 404.08 Swim Lines.

(a) No person shall operate a boat within any permitted swim line on any public body of water.
(b) No person shall put or place a swim line in the public waters of any public body of water without prior written approval of the director.
(c) An application for a swim line permit, DSSS 41, shall be submitted to the director by the shore front property owner, or a duly authorized agent.
(d) The following shall be submitted on the application for a swim line permit, DSSS 41:
(1) Name, address and telephone number of the property owner;
(2) Name, address and telephone number of the authorized agent for the property owner, if applicable;
(3) Address of shore front propertty;
(4) Name of the body of water;
(5) Lot number and tax map number of the shore front property;
(6) Name and address of abutters;
(7) Type of swim area, such as:
a. Private or individual swim area;
b. Town or state owned swim area;
c. Private group or association swim area; and
(8) If a waiver is requested, a statement of need with description of water depth and distance from shore.
(e) An application for a swim permit, DSSS 41, shall be signed and dated by the property owner or duly authorized agent.
(f) A diagram of the swim area shall be attached to the application for a swim permit, DSSS 41.
(g) The diagram referenced in (f) above shall:
(1) Be accurate in relation to north and shall contain the following:
a. Shore line and property line of applicant in feet;
b. Proposed location and length of swim lines;
c. Water depth in feet at furthest point of swim line;
d. Locations, dimensions and distance in feet to moorings, docks, or swim rafts located off the applicant’s shore frontage; and
e. Abutter’s shore frontages, and location, dimensions and distance in feet, to moorings, docks, swim rafts or swim lines, located within 200 feet of applicant’s shore frontage.
(h) No swim line shall be approved which:
(1) In the opinion of the director constitutes a hazard or obstruction to navigation;
(2) Is placed closer than 20 feet from abutter property lines;
(3) Has an open-sided configuration which would permit boats to enter the swim area;
(4) Extends into the water beyond the point where the depth of water exceeds 6 feet or for a distance from shore of 50 feet, whichever occurs first; or
(5) Diminishes the residential, recreational or scenic value of the public water in light of the competing uses for the enjoyment of the public water.
(i) Written requests for a waiver of the restrictions imposed in paragraph (i) above shall be submitted to the director on the application form, DSSS 41. The reason the request is submitted detailing specific water depth and distance from shore shall be included.
(j) After receipt of a request for a waiver in conformance with (j) above, the director shall conduct a visual inspection of the proposed swim line site. A waiver shall be granted if the director determines that the proposed swim line does not constitute a hazard or obstruction to navigation and the granting of a swim line does not diminish the residential, recreational and scenic values that the public water provides to all users of the water. The conditions of the waiver shall appear on the swim line permit when issued.
(k) A swim line permit shall be issued on an annual basis.

Source. #2351, eff 4-25-83; ss by #3010, eff 5-2-85; ss by #4562, eff 1-3-89; ss by #5862, eff 7-1-94; renumbered by #6005, eff 3-24-95 (formerly Saf-C 404.28), EXPIRED: 7-1-00

New. #7798, eff 12-3-02; ss by #8172, eff 9-21-04

BeaverIslandGuy · 07-29-2009, 05:37 AM

Just what was needed.

Will review form and see if it is worth submitting. I may go down to Glendale and talk to MP about their thoughts on if it would be likely approved.

While these are for swimming lines, I wonder if they would permit just the buoy, which would (IMHO) be less of an interferance to navigation. I really only want to warn "people' that there are swimmers in the area and give an outer marker for my kids not to exceed.

JRC and Airwaves - thanks for your help.

Bear Islander · 07-29-2009, 07:37 AM

It's a lot easier to get a mooring permit that a swim line permit. A mooring is a great way to warn away boats. And you can ever tie a boat up to it. In fact with a small boat or canoe on the mooring people are required to stay 150 feet away.

A swim raft requires NO permit. Build or buy a small swim raft and just put it out there. How about a 4' x 4' swim raft!

Gatto Nero · 07-29-2009, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

A swim raft requires NO permit. Build or buy a small swim raft and just put it out there. How about a 4' x 4' swim raft!

A swim raft also makes for a great destination for the kids to swim to and push each other off of.

NightWing · 07-29-2009, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeaverIslandGuy

Just what was needed.

Will review form and see if it is worth submitting. I may go down to Glendale and talk to MP about their thoughts on if it would be likely approved.

While these are for swimming lines, I wonder if they would permit just the buoy, which would (IMHO) be less of an interferance to navigation. I really only want to warn "people' that there are swimmers in the area and give an outer marker for my kids not to exceed.

JRC and Airwaves - thanks for your help.

The only effective way to warn boaters of swimming activity is an approved swim line that will be enforceable. Putting a marker out is no assurance that boaters will stay away, since there is no law that says they have to.

jrc · 07-29-2009, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

...
A swim raft requires NO permit. Build or buy a small swim raft and just put it out there. How about a 4' x 4' swim raft!

This is a really good idea. When I see a swim platform, I think swimmers and steer way clear. An empty mooring doesn't get the same respect.

Rattlesnake Guy · 07-29-2009, 07:40 PM

A diving flag that is put out only when actual swimming is going on requires a 300 foot boat distance. What I don't know for certain, is if this is a legal use. But I bet someone reading this knows for sure.

Winnipesaukee Divers · 07-30-2009, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

A diving flag that is put out only when actual swimming is going on requires a 300 foot boat distance. What I don't know for certain, is if this is a legal use. But I bet someone reading this knows for sure.

What is it you guys don't understand about obstructing navigation??? That flag is used to alert boater that divers are below and operating a motor vessel near it could result in serious injury or death. Misuse of that safety device is endangering my safety as well as my fellow divers. The misuse of a Diver's Down flag will result in you going on report, then a harsh, but well deserved fine.

The appropriate device would be a swimming marker buoy. I'm sure you've seen them; a four foot tall, white buoy with a a placard indicating swim area. However, there again you are obstructing navigation and you will need a permit to do such.

meredith weekender · 07-30-2009, 06:17 AM

We had the same problem in Meredith Bay about five years ago. The solution was easy and is now enjoyable. We put a swim platform out about 95' from shore. This deters boaters from the inside edge of the platform and gives the kids, their friends and our neighbors a great place to play on. Good luck.

winnipesaukeenh · 07-30-2009, 08:42 AM

As others have a said, obtain a swim line permit and go about it that way. If you just place a buoy out there without permission, you'll receive a fine.

Bear Islander · 07-30-2009, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee Divers

What is it you guys don't understand about obstructing navigation??? That flag is used to alert boater that divers are below and operating a motor vessel near it could result in serious injury or death. Misuse of that safety device is endangering my safety as well as my fellow divers. The misuse of a Diver's Down flag will result in you going on report, then a harsh, but well deserved fine.

The appropriate device would be a swimming marker buoy. I'm sure you've seen them; a four foot tall, white buoy with a a placard indicating swim area. However, there again you are obstructing navigation and you will need a permit to do such.

Your post may give people the idea that a dive flag is only for SCUBA. I'm sure you know that is not the case. A dive flag is not only permissible it is REQUIRED for snorkelers. We keep several masks and snorkelers in our dock box and they are used quite often. Any time they are in use I have the right to use a dive flag.

SIKSUKR · 07-30-2009, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Your post may give people the idea that a dive flag is only for SCUBA. I'm sure you know that is not the case. A dive flag is not only permissible it is REQUIRED for snorkelers. We keep several masks and snorkelers in our dock box and they are used quite often. Any time they are in use I have the right to use a dive flag.

And actually BI,I think they are a great tool for snorkelers safety.It would be very difficult to spot snorklers without them.

Kamper · 07-30-2009, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Your post may give people the idea that a dive flag is only for SCUBA. (We have snorkeling gear.) Any time they are in use I have the right to use a dive flag.

I can't remember if I've seen NH's legal definition of the word "Dive" but anytime your body is completely submerged I'm pretty sure you are "Diving" according to the normal definition of the word.

Just a thought...

BeaverIslandGuy · 07-30-2009, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

This is a really good idea. When I see a swim platform, I think swimmers and steer way clear. An empty mooring doesn't get the same respect.

Great ideas. I like the idea of the small swim raft, but thinking of how small I can make it. How about 18" by 18" with a white swim area Bouy sticking out of the middle. My 4 and 6 yr olds could still climb it, so it is still technically a raft. hmmmm.........

I was not away the swim rafts required no permit, as they can be a hazard to navigation (much more so than my white swim buoy), I would have thought so. Is there a distance from shore limitation? Are there any other restrictions.

thanks for all your help. If there are other thoughts, keep them coming.

Winnipesaukee Divers · 07-30-2009, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Your post may give people the idea that a dive flag is only for SCUBA. I'm sure you know that is not the case. A dive flag is not only permissible it is REQUIRED for snorkelers. We keep several masks and snorkelers in our dock box and they are used quite often. Any time they are in use I have the right to use a dive flag.

Well, I guess I have go into more details here... My take on is was that, Rattlesnake Guy was suggesting a dive flag be left out unattended adjacent to the the swim area to act as a deterrent. Which is clearly in violation of the "Dive Flag" ordnance. I won't site or even paraphrase the law as you seem to already know it. My point is; if you (that's the rhetorical you) misuse the flag and boaters think its just a decoy to obstruct navigation, then you undermine the intent of the law thereby endangering all of us that use the flag, even your snorkelers.

Bear Islander · 07-30-2009, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeaverIslandGuy

Great ideas. I like the idea of the small swim raft, but thinking of how small I can make it. How about 18" by 18" with a white swim area Bouy sticking out of the middle. My 4 and 6 yr olds could still climb it, so it is still technically a raft. hmmmm.........

I was not away the swim rafts required no permit, as they can be a hazard to navigation (much more so than my white swim buoy), I would have thought so. Is there a distance from shore limitation? Are there any other restrictions.

thanks for all your help. If there are other thoughts, keep them coming.

There is no maximum distance from shore that I am aware of. There is a trampoline raft on the north west side of Long Island that is way out there. However I'm sure that if the Marine Patrol think it's a hazard to navigation you will be told to move it.

ishoot308 · 07-30-2009, 03:43 PM

I believe maximum distant for a swim raft is 150' from shore.

Dan

Rattlesnake Guy · 07-31-2009, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

A diving flag that is put out only when actual swimming is going on requires a 300 foot boat distance. What I don't know for certain, is if this is a legal use. But I bet someone reading this knows for sure.

Winnipesaukee Divers
I totally agree with your statement about correct use. I have quoted myself above. I think the first sentence puts us on the same side of the issue. I know when I see a dive flag, (including yours) I make a course change that gives you the safe space you deserve. I would hope that kids snorkeling and swimming deserve the same. But, if they leave the flag out to keep boats away they should be fined.

07-28-2009, 01:06 PM	#1
BeaverIslandGuy Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: north end of lake, whenever possible Posts: 29 Thanks: 11 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	question on swim area buoys Hi all. Just got up for summer vacation. Yea!! A question on swim area bouys. Posting here as it affects boaters. Under what circumstances, if any, could I put out a swim area buoy? This is an "standard" white buoy with swimming area markings that would be anchored to the bottom. Ideally, I would like to put out about 100 ft from shore as the jet skiers keep cutting to close to our point and endangering the swimmers. (yes, I know they are breaking the 150 ft rule, but they either don't know, can't judge distance, or (most likely) really don't care). Is a permit required? If so, by whom and how/where to I apply? Thanks __________________ Please assume something pithy is inserted here

07-29-2009, 07:40 PM	#11
Rattlesnake Guy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,254 Thanks: 423 Thanked 366 Times in 175 Posts	A diving flag that is put out only when actual swimming is going on requires a 300 foot boat distance. What I don't know for certain, is if this is a legal use. But I bet someone reading this knows for sure. Attached Images

07-30-2009, 03:43 PM	#21
ishoot308 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Gilford, NH / Welch Island Posts: 6,225 Thanks: 2,381 Thanked 5,273 Times in 2,049 Posts	150' I believe maximum distant for a swim raft is 150' from shore. Dan

07-28-2009, 05:00 PM	#2
Lakepilot Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 446 Thanks: 70 Thanked 57 Times in 40 Posts	Mitt Romney did that in Wolfeboro, but was told he couldn't. He didn't own the lake.

07-28-2009, 08:27 PM	#5
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Here are the rules: Saf-C 404.08 Swim Lines. (a) No person shall operate a boat within any permitted swim line on any public body of water. (b) No person shall put or place a swim line in the public waters of any public body of water without prior written approval of the director. (c) An application for a swim line permit, DSSS 41, shall be submitted to the director by the shore front property owner, or a duly authorized agent. (d) The following shall be submitted on the application for a swim line permit, DSSS 41: (1) Name, address and telephone number of the property owner; (2) Name, address and telephone number of the authorized agent for the property owner, if applicable; (3) Address of shore front propertty; (4) Name of the body of water; (5) Lot number and tax map number of the shore front property; (6) Name and address of abutters; (7) Type of swim area, such as: a. Private or individual swim area; b. Town or state owned swim area; c. Private group or association swim area; and (8) If a waiver is requested, a statement of need with description of water depth and distance from shore. (e) An application for a swim permit, DSSS 41, shall be signed and dated by the property owner or duly authorized agent. (f) A diagram of the swim area shall be attached to the application for a swim permit, DSSS 41. (g) The diagram referenced in (f) above shall: (1) Be accurate in relation to north and shall contain the following: a. Shore line and property line of applicant in feet; b. Proposed location and length of swim lines; c. Water depth in feet at furthest point of swim line; d. Locations, dimensions and distance in feet to moorings, docks, or swim rafts located off the applicant’s shore frontage; and e. Abutter’s shore frontages, and location, dimensions and distance in feet, to moorings, docks, swim rafts or swim lines, located within 200 feet of applicant’s shore frontage. (h) No swim line shall be approved which: (1) In the opinion of the director constitutes a hazard or obstruction to navigation; (2) Is placed closer than 20 feet from abutter property lines; (3) Has an open-sided configuration which would permit boats to enter the swim area; (4) Extends into the water beyond the point where the depth of water exceeds 6 feet or for a distance from shore of 50 feet, whichever occurs first; or (5) Diminishes the residential, recreational or scenic value of the public water in light of the competing uses for the enjoyment of the public water. (i) Written requests for a waiver of the restrictions imposed in paragraph (i) above shall be submitted to the director on the application form, DSSS 41. The reason the request is submitted detailing specific water depth and distance from shore shall be included. (j) After receipt of a request for a waiver in conformance with (j) above, the director shall conduct a visual inspection of the proposed swim line site. A waiver shall be granted if the director determines that the proposed swim line does not constitute a hazard or obstruction to navigation and the granting of a swim line does not diminish the residential, recreational and scenic values that the public water provides to all users of the water. The conditions of the waiver shall appear on the swim line permit when issued. (k) A swim line permit shall be issued on an annual basis. Source. #2351, eff 4-25-83; ss by #3010, eff 5-2-85; ss by #4562, eff 1-3-89; ss by #5862, eff 7-1-94; renumbered by #6005, eff 3-24-95 (formerly Saf-C 404.28), EXPIRED: 7-1-00 New. #7798, eff 12-3-02; ss by #8172, eff 9-21-04

07-29-2009, 05:37 AM	#6
BeaverIslandGuy Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: north end of lake, whenever possible Posts: 29 Thanks: 11 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	perfect Just what was needed. Will review form and see if it is worth submitting. I may go down to Glendale and talk to MP about their thoughts on if it would be likely approved. While these are for swimming lines, I wonder if they would permit just the buoy, which would (IMHO) be less of an interferance to navigation. I really only want to warn "people' that there are swimmers in the area and give an outer marker for my kids not to exceed. JRC and Airwaves - thanks for your help. __________________ Please assume something pithy is inserted here

07-29-2009, 07:37 AM	#7
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,763 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	It's a lot easier to get a mooring permit that a swim line permit. A mooring is a great way to warn away boats. And you can ever tie a boat up to it. In fact with a small boat or canoe on the mooring people are required to stay 150 feet away. A swim raft requires NO permit. Build or buy a small swim raft and just put it out there. How about a 4' x 4' swim raft!

07-30-2009, 06:17 AM	#13
meredith weekender Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Meredith / Manchester Posts: 373 Thanks: 87 Thanked 84 Times in 57 Posts	We had the same problem in Meredith Bay about five years ago. The solution was easy and is now enjoyable. We put a swim platform out about 95' from shore. This deters boaters from the inside edge of the platform and gives the kids, their friends and our neighbors a great place to play on. Good luck.

07-30-2009, 08:42 AM	#14
winnipesaukeenh Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 21 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	As others have a said, obtain a swim line permit and go about it that way. If you just place a buoy out there without permission, you'll receive a fine.