HUB status in Moultonborough

[tummyman]

So now we get an estimate in a few months....or a guess.... about ESTIMATED costs for something that may be built in 2 years. No architectural drawings are available to develop better estimates. No business would ever go out to build something without solid plans and FIRM bids from qualified builders. We have an outside group (The Hub) who surveys folks and have determined a NEED from a portion of the residents. Anyone see the results of the needs review? Who is going to provide the ten year annual operating costs for this behemoth? Or is this another guess in the offing? The legislative body deserves more than estimates and a passive Board of Selectmen so far. The BOS needs a full out financial analysis of the total project costs, bonding fees, operating costs, etc .etc. prepared by qualified neutral parties...certainly not a town employee. It is time to shift the focus to creating a non-for-profit organization to build and operate this facility on town donated land and not strap the taxpayers with another burden. If the NEED is there, then certainly there is a NEED to have those folks build and operate it.

[winni83]

Tummy man is spot on. With all of the fund raising activities the Hub group is supposedly involved in why not use their own funds for the “cost estimates”? Just another example of their hands in the taxpayers’ pockets.

[John Mercier]

Probably looking at a design-build rather than a design-bid-build format.

[fatlazyless]

Is SO very easy to see the architectural drawings ....... go to www.moultonboroughnh.gov/major-projects and click on "The Hub - Community Activity & Aquatic Centre." .......

[tummyman]

By architectural drawings, I meant the detailed building plans that builders need for all structural design elements including a full bill of materials, etc. All that is available are artist sketches, etc.

[fatlazyless]

Five different pages of architectural drawings .... .... made by www.stewarchitects.com, Laconia NH is what's easy to see when you click on "The Hub-Community Activity & Aquatic Centre" at www.moultonboroughnh.gov/major-projects.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

The vote for the $23,000 was 4-1, with Kevin Quinlan against it.
By the way, Karel Crawford, who voted for it, is running for State Representative. She will not be getting my vote.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tummyman

By architectural drawings, I meant the detailed building plans that builders need for all structural design elements including a full bill of materials, etc. All that is available are artist sketches, etc.

Design-Build means that doesn't need to exist... just renderings.

Design-Bid-Build would need the plans to bid the job...

[longislander]

Design, build ...


https://www.symmetrybuilders.net/sym...he%20developer.

[longislander]

By the way, Karel Crawford, who voted for it, is running for State Representative. She will not be getting my vote.

https://granitegrok.com/blog/2022/08..._campaign=Grok

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by longislander

https://granitegrok.com/blog/2022/08..._campaign=Grok

So, what the heck ... is GraniteGrok ... www.granitegrok.com/about ... with their motto ... "Dominating the Political Bandwidth in New Hampshire"... so what's this all about?

Definition ..... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dominate ..... ...... "dominate"

[FlyingScot]

Even as a person who generally likes this sort of thing, it's hard for me to understand why a majority of year-rounders would want to pay for this. But I wonder how much of the cost will be borne by locals and how much from second homers. Does anyone know the percent of property value attributable to second homes? Second best number might be percent on the water?

Also--can Moultonborough get other towns or people, such as FLL, to bear a portion of the cost in exchange for membership?

[John Mercier]

They could. But I think if you have paying members that the insurance coverage has to be different.

[longislander]

"The Hub" proposal is for a town property, not a private club. Anyone paying taxes to Moultonborough will pay, resident or not, second home or not.

Presently, the tax rate is 6.98/1000. How much of that will change if "The Hub" with the bond is approved by 3/5ths vote at the 2023 town meeting?

Payments, if applicable, will be for particuler functions in/at the center.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by longislander

"The Hub" proposal is for a town property, not a private club. Anyone paying taxes to Moultonborough will pay, resident or not, second home or not.

Presently, the tax rate is 6.98/1000. How much of that will change if "The Hub" with the bond is approved by 3/5ths vote at the 2023 town meeting?

Payments, if applicable, will be for particuler functions in/at the center.

He asked about non-residents/non-taxpayers using the facility.

[phoenix]

since this has been turned down for years why do we continue to elect selectmen who want it

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by phoenix

since this has been turned down for years why do we continue to elect selectmen who want it

From a (seasonal) outsider, it does seem very weird.

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[John Mercier]

How close has the vote been?

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by phoenix

since this has been turned down for years why do we continue to elect selectmen who want it

GOOD QUESTION !

How that woman got elected is beyond comprehension.

Many years ago I had a witch for a tenant.
But was advised by the witch that witches are "good" witches.
As in the vein of Laurie Cabot below.

LINK

Go figure !

[tis]

Two reason these people keep getting elected- either people don't know how they stand or they are part of the crowd that has their pet project.

[tummyman]

New preliminary tax assessments are just out in Moultonborough. From a sampling, looks like lakefront land increased 30.74%. With such large waterfront land changes, the burden for paying off the bonding on a project like the HUB further shifts onto the backs of those who do not vote ! All you need to do is "want" something and then get enough folks to support it on the basis that those who do not want or need it have to pay without any voice. When will logic and reason rule ???

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by tummyman

New preliminary tax assessments are just out in Moultonborough. From a sampling, looks like lakefront land increased 30.74%. With such large waterfront land changes, the burden for paying off the bonding on a project like the HUB further shifts onto the backs of those who do not vote ! All you need to do is "want" something and then get enough folks to support it on the basis that those who do not want or need it have to pay without any voice. When will logic and reason rule ???

When you say 30%, do you mean $.20 up from the $7 it currently is or 30% increase to assessed values?

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[tummyman]

Waterfront land portion of assessed valuations appears up 30.74% vs last years assessed waterfront land values that are part of the total property assessed values. The tax mil rate per $1000 of valuation will be determined later in the year for the December billing.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Our assessment is up 26%. Land assessment increased 31%.

[tummyman]

I received this from a friend. It outlines the expected real costs for the proposed HUB Community Center over the 20 year financing period. You will note all of the numbers are exactly from the material that the HUB folks have provided, except for an estimate of the costs the HUB folks admitted will be needed but they have not included. There is also a note at the end that a modest 5% inflation of operating costs…salaries, insurances, benefits, utilities, etc. over that same 20 year period could add an extra $6-7 Million, bringing the overall cost to +/- $40 MILLION !!! Yikes !! As I learned from reading this material, the $15M bond request at Town Meeting is the tip of the cost iceberg for a facility that, in my opinion, has a questionable need. However, if it is approved, then all these numbers will flow to taxpayers annually. I have been told that lakefront properties will pay +/- 70% or more of the costs (based on assessed valuations) but only represent a very small portion of voters who may approve this project. Well worth the time to review this material.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This Guest Commentary is the opinion of that writer. This sender email address is solely used to distribute that opinion.

Please share this information with neighbors, friends and Moultonboro voters. Town Meeting is Thursday, May 11th at 6pm.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Don't be blindsided by the HUB bonding request of $15.3 Million. That is in no way representative of what this project is going to cost Moultonborough taxpayers.

The project as presented could easily represent a potential increase of +/- 20% or more to the ongoing Municipal budget !


Amount Borrowed (Bond) $15.5 Million The HUB numbers

Interest Payments (20 years) $ 8.9 Million The HUB numbers
_____________

Cost to finance ONLY $24.4 Million The HUB numbers….like your home mortgage payment

Annual Operating Cost ($320,000/year) $ 6.4 Million The HUB numbers (without inflation), reduced by revenue
_____________

Total $30.8 Million

Potential Added Operating Costs ($200,000 year) $ 4.0 Million….HUB folks admitted they didn't have all costs captured.
_____________

Potential Total for 0ver 20 years $34.8 Million


With 5% added inflation of Operating costs, these numbers could realistically eclipse +/- $40 Million over the 20 year period.

The $15.3 Million bond is just the tip of the iceberg that Moultonborough taxpayers are getting obligated to, if approved.

YOU NEED THE FULL STORY !!!!

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by tummyman

With 5% added inflation of Operating costs, these numbers could realistically eclipse +/- $40 Million over the 20 year period.

The $15.3 Million bond is just the tip of the iceberg that Moultonborough taxpayers are getting obligated to, if approved.

YOU NEED THE FULL STORY !!!!

Please. Don't place data and statistics into the conversation. All just muddies the waters.

Instead of the $40 Million dollar estimate.

Take a smaller number such as the pennies added to the home tax evaluation. Folks like smaller numbers.

And no one wants to know anything about inflation. Nobody wants to know about interest for cost of money. No one want to know about the annual maintenance costs. No one wants to know about the annual labor costs.

Please keep the full story a secret !

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by longislander

"The Hub" proposal is for a town property, not a private club. Anyone paying taxes to Moultonborough will pay, resident or not, second home or not.

Presently, the tax rate is 6.98/1000. How much of that will change if "The Hub" with the bond is approved by 3/5ths vote at the 2023 town meeting?

Payments, if applicable, will be for particuler functions in/at the center.

I agree that what you write is 100% true, but it is misleading. Waterfront homes, occupied mostly(?) by nonresidents pay the lion's share of property taxes. Let's call that amount 75%, just for fun. This enables the year rounders to build something for themselves while only paying 25% of the tab. In essence, they get a 75% discount on community centers, schools, and various other things of zero value to Summer people.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, or that the HUB should be built. Only pointing out the political/economic dynamic

[Sue Doe-Nym]

I believe that FS’s number is fairly close….at least that’s what it was about 10 years ago. It really boggles my mind that this HUB entourage is moving forward, full steam ahead, given the current state we’re in with inflation and other pressing issues. People are hurting…..and they are worried about putting gas in their cars/ trucks, food on the table and HEATING their homes this coming season! I am not whining on my own behalf, but I keep thinking of what the vast sums of money we are talking about could do to benefit our citizens who are in need….specifically, the retirees on fixed incomes, for example. I don’t know whether this whole situation makes me more sad or angry…probably both. This project is a terrible idea, particularly at this time.

[John Mercier]

SS adjusts to inflation.
One of the complaints the FED has on trying to get the inflation under control.

[longislander]

Even as a person who generally likes this sort of thing, it's hard for me to understand why a majority of year-rounders would want to pay for this. But I wonder how much of the cost will be borne by locals and how much from second homers. Does anyone know the percent of property value attributable to second homes? Second best number might be percent on the water?

Also--can Moultonborough get other towns or people, such as FLL, to bear a portion of the cost in exchange for membership?

He asked about non-residents/non-taxpayers using the facility.

Where do you see that?
The context was who pays for the build, not the use of the center. Maybe you want to debate his use of the word "cost".

Also, rentals etc. of the center I did address:

Payments, if applicable, will be for particuler functions in/at the center.

If that is what you meant.

I agree that what you write is 100% true, but it is misleading.

Not if you understand taxation in Moultonboroiugh. Moultonborough has been a cash cow for many years. Thank you! to the MA, NY, Conn. and other non-resident Moultonborough taxpayers, including NH, for providing the funding.

It is understood that lakefront property in Moultonborough is the major contributor to the tax base.

[John Mercier]

''Also--can Moultonborough get other towns or people, such as FLL, to bear a portion of the cost in exchange for membership?''

I found it through careful reading.

The SPT is not transferred to Concord, but used as an offset to determine educational grants to each district.
https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2021-02...of-donor-towns

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

I believe that FS’s number is fairly close….at least that’s what it was about 10 years ago. It really boggles my mind that this HUB entourage is moving forward, full steam ahead, given the current state we’re in with inflation and other pressing issues. People are hurting…..and they are worried about putting gas in their cars/ trucks, food on the table and HEATING their homes this coming season! I am not whining on my own behalf, but I keep thinking of what the vast sums of money we are talking about could do to benefit our citizens who are in need….specifically, the retirees on fixed incomes, for example. I don’t know whether this whole situation makes me more sad or angry…probably both. This project is a terrible idea, particularly at this time.

It's too easy for people who are comfortable (or VERY comfortable) to remember that many folks in our area are struggling. My posts should have noted that. I agree that it would not be right to do this in a way that hit people on fixed incomes

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

It's too easy for people who are comfortable (or VERY comfortable) to remember that many folks in our area are struggling. My posts should have noted that. I agree that it would not be right to do this in a way that hit people on fixed incomes

I think voters tend to take that all into consideration.
We have quite a few tax exemptions that can be modified for income and net assets to allow a considerable amount of protection.

I think your earlier understanding of voter psychology is what is occurring; and should the vote yield more than 50 percent, but not the 60 percent needed for the bond... I think they will keep trying.

It is the youngest residents that opponents would need to appeal to...

[Sue Doe-Nym]

The voters who want the HUB don’t give a darn about anybody or anything, just as long as they get what they want……it’s that simple. We have watched this for over a decade, and the only changes we note are their increased determination and attitude of entitlement. Their behavior is, in many cases, reprehensible.
P.S. I should not have put everyone in favor of the HUB in the obnoxious category. There are actually some reasonable people who support it.